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Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:28 PM Dec 2013

New Study Destroys Key GOP Talking Point...Increasing Minimum Wage Would Actually Create New Jobs

$10.10 Minimum Wage Would Actually Create New Jobs: Study
The Huffington Post | By Jillian Berman


Raising the minimum wage would help the working poor and give the entire economy a boost, a new analysis finds.

If the minimum wage rose to $10.10 per hour, as Senate Democrats and President Barack Obama propose, 27.8 million workers would see their wages go up as a direct or indirect result of the boost, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning think tank. These workers would take home about $35 billion in additional wages and they would probably spend it, as low-income people living with little financial cushion cushion tend to do.


The result: During the initial phase-in period, the U.S. economy would grow by about $22 billion, EPI found. The growth in the U.S. economy would result in about 85,000 new jobs, according to EPI. That counters arguments from conservative economists that raising the minimum wage could actually hurt the working poor by making employers hesitant to hire more workers. (A notion that’s been proven wrong by some economists and remains hotly debated.)

The analysis is an update to a similar report released by EPI earlier this year. It takes into account the fact that five states recently raised their minimum wage, meaning workers living in those states would feel less of an impact from a federal minimum wage boost than when EPI published the original research in March.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/19/1010-minimum-wage_n_4474183.html
34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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New Study Destroys Key GOP Talking Point...Increasing Minimum Wage Would Actually Create New Jobs (Original Post) Cali_Democrat Dec 2013 OP
A weak economy and a weak labor market are good for employers el_bryanto Dec 2013 #1
It does... IF they sell into a market with a strong economy and strong labor market. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #3
Yea liberalmike27 Dec 2013 #18
There is absolutely NOTHING new here. similar studies have been Doctor_J Dec 2013 #2
I think Obama has been very vocal in his support for increasing the minimum wage Cali_Democrat Dec 2013 #4
Yep, for more than thirty years that I can recall RoccoR5955 Dec 2013 #13
It been proven many times, but it goes against republican "semi-logic" that raising pampango Dec 2013 #5
There probably is a point where a higher minimum wage would hurt the economy but we're nowhere close reformist2 Dec 2013 #6
High unemployment is the 1%'s wet dream FiveGoodMen Dec 2013 #7
But how do slaves buy the crap the 1% wants to sell in their stores? tclambert Dec 2013 #17
The corporations create a new middle class, and new markets, in places such as China. AdHocSolver Dec 2013 #24
Yup. Dirty polluted Shenyang China Left Coast2020 Dec 2013 #25
It's a step in the right direction. nt sheshe2 Dec 2013 #8
I was watching a movie last night 4 t 4 Dec 2013 #9
That would be a fact. The right does not care about facts. CanonRay Dec 2013 #10
It only destroys it among people who didn't believe it in the first place JHB Dec 2013 #11
By definition, raising the minimum wage will boost the economy. AdHocSolver Dec 2013 #12
I agree with you. However, Republicans have long claimed tclambert Dec 2013 #16
All economics depends on the levels of supply, demand, and the existence or absence of competition. AdHocSolver Dec 2013 #23
This is old news. It has been know since 1938. Coyotl Dec 2013 #14
What about the spite factor? Chiquitita Dec 2013 #15
k&r for the truth. n/t Laelth Dec 2013 #19
What does it matter? These people are impervious to facts. They'll just keep repeating the Chakab Dec 2013 #20
Their goal is to squeeze labor. The Republiscrooges are building an underclass of desperate GoneFishin Dec 2013 #21
yes, a minimum wage increase NewJeffCT Dec 2013 #22
There is one problem though imo and that is without some cstanleytech Dec 2013 #26
The mechanism to automatically raise the minimum wage is called full employment. AdHocSolver Dec 2013 #27
Agree with part and disagree with part. pampango Dec 2013 #28
NAFTA and its ilk reduced jobs in the U.S. far beyond the loss of jobs due to automation. AdHocSolver Dec 2013 #29
Every developed country has had a similar decline in manufacturing jobs, not just the US and not pampango Dec 2013 #30
Someone once said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." AdHocSolver Dec 2013 #32
If the statistics are "doctored", it should be easy to refute them. pampango Dec 2013 #33
People should judge by their own experience as workers and consumers... AdHocSolver Dec 2013 #34
It just doesn't create any Turbineguy Dec 2013 #31

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
1. A weak economy and a weak labor market are good for employers
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:32 PM
Dec 2013

The more people can find good jobs the less they can be pushed around.

Bryant

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
3. It does... IF they sell into a market with a strong economy and strong labor market.
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:57 PM
Dec 2013

A weak economy and weak labor market only looks good for employers because it is worse for employees.

liberalmike27

(2,479 posts)
18. Yea
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 02:37 PM
Dec 2013

About the only way jobs were ever lost was in factories moving away.

My guess is, there aren't many left to move. The raises will primarily happen in the service sector, so it just amounts to so much more demand. Obviously, at this point, demand is needed, and our economic problem is the skewed to the rich distribution of wealth.

Like before when Republicans ruled for so long, the rich got too much, and we had a depression (1929). The same basic solutions apply. Create jobs to make up for the FAILURE of the private sector. Tax the rich to get the money to do that. Money redistributed the best way possible, through jobs, doing the things we need to do anyway. It's wins all around.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
2. There is absolutely NOTHING new here. similar studies have been
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:51 PM
Dec 2013

done over and over. Our so-called representatives are too cowardly to act on it. Our president timidly tossed out a 9.00 proposal, and hasn't mentioned it since. Probably won't even bother to mention it at the SOTU.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
4. I think Obama has been very vocal in his support for increasing the minimum wage
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 05:46 PM
Dec 2013

Why would you think he's been timid in this regard?

The topic is getting increasing play and Americans support a minimum wage hike

This is putting pressure on the GOP to stop obstructing minimum wage legislation.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
13. Yep, for more than thirty years that I can recall
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 11:04 AM
Dec 2013

they have made studies that raising the minimum wage actually boosts the economy, and thus, creates jobs.
Time after time after time, the corporatists have stated that raising the minimum wage kills jobs, and is bad for the economy.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
5. It been proven many times, but it goes against republican "semi-logic" that raising
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 05:57 PM
Dec 2013

the minimum wage will hurt employment. They use the ol' "if you increase the price of something, people will get less of it" argument. The fact that numerous studies have shown that the overall effect of such a raise helps employment much more than it hurts, does nothing to stop their emotional use of "semi-logic".

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
6. There probably is a point where a higher minimum wage would hurt the economy but we're nowhere close
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 06:01 PM
Dec 2013

The best argument is having an opponent do the math: even $10 an hour * 30 hours a week is still only $300 a week, before taxes.

FiveGoodMen

(20,018 posts)
7. High unemployment is the 1%'s wet dream
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 06:56 PM
Dec 2013

When people are helpless you can treat them like slaves.

No matter what they say in front of the cameras, the right has no wish to create new jobs.

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
17. But how do slaves buy the crap the 1% wants to sell in their stores?
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 02:06 PM
Dec 2013

They constantly forget workers are also customers. If you cut the income of workers, you cut the income of customers.

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
24. The corporations create a new middle class, and new markets, in places such as China.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 01:55 AM
Dec 2013

When General Motors was losing money selling cars in the U.S. due to the "recession", they were manufacturing and selling lots of Buicks in China.

While the masses in China work for slave wages in sweatshops, there is a growing middle class of engineers, scientists, and business professionals in China.

This growing middle class is well paid and can afford to buy the products that the wage slaves produce. Since the Chinese population is much larger than the U.S. population, the potential for growth in sales and profits is much greater in China than in the U.S. with its high unemployment and ever decreasing wage rates.

The U.S. is less important to corporate operations and, with so many corrupt politicians and government employees in power, the U.S. is much less relevant politically.

Implementing the so-called Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) will further marginalize the middle class and will deal a significant blow to democracy in America.

4 t 4

(2,407 posts)
9. I was watching a movie last night
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 08:09 PM
Dec 2013

I can't remember what it was some campy movie I think on like TNT , anyway one of the actors was like " I can't leave now I just got a really good job,it pays 7.50 an hour" I hit "more information" the movie was made in 1985 ?? Nice! $10.10 an hour should be more like $16.50. but we can't even get $10.10 we're being crushed and we're going along with it and arguing points that are ridiculous. We should rebel at Every stage, Every stage. I want more, on ever-front. wtf??

JHB

(37,160 posts)
11. It only destroys it among people who didn't believe it in the first place
Fri Dec 20, 2013, 10:53 AM
Dec 2013

The RWers will just dismiss it as "radical left propaganda", promoted by "the liberal media".

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
12. By definition, raising the minimum wage will boost the economy.
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 12:19 AM
Dec 2013

No study is needed.

Economic activity consists of people spending money to buy goods and services. Boosting the minimum wage will put more money into the hands of more people who need to spend it to improve their standard of living. They will spend it and automatically boost the economy.

Increasing the wages of people on the low end of the economic scale will increase tax revenues because these people will pay more income taxes and, where applicable, they will pay more sales taxes.

On the other hand, giving more money to the very wealthy people, in the form of reduced taxes, will in most cases NOT boost the economy because they will use it to gamble in the stock market or place the money in offshore tax havens, or boost China's economy by moving factories there.

So, the two alternatives promoted by the politicians to boost the economy are give more money to low-wage workers in the form of a higher minimum wage, or give more money to the wealthy in the form of tax breaks.

A higher minimum wage will result in more spending which automatically boosts the economy. Giving more money to the already wealthy will result in the withdrawal of money from the economy, which will will result in little or no increase in spending, and may even shrink the economy if the wealthy send it offshore.

If the actual goal is to boost the economy, then there is nothing to argue about. To increase economic activity, raise the minimum wage.

Another way to boost the economy is to increase government support for infrastructure, education, and mass transit. Austerity measures remove money from the economy and will only shrink the economy.

To boost the economy, create more jobs, and increase the wages for all jobs. Put more money into the hands of those who will spend it on the purchase of goods and services.

Most importantly, do NOT make it more profitable to offshore jobs by promoting more NAFTA-like trade agreements like the so-called Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). That the TPP will aid the American economy is the biggest pack of lies.

In fact, it is very likely that this "debate" on the minimum wage is designed to distract from the real danger to the U.S. economy which is further gutting of the middle class should the so-called TPP be implemented.

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
16. I agree with you. However, Republicans have long claimed
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 02:04 PM
Dec 2013

that raising the minimum wage will force employers to lay off some of their minimum wage workers to keep their overall payroll the same. They commissioned many economists to try to justify this with theoretical arguments rather than data.

One time I wondered if economists had done the historical analysis to settle the issue. It seemed to me that raising the minimum wage stimulated the economy, but maybe the economy was improving anyway. I prepared myself even for finding out the data might show it slightly hurt the economy. To my surprise and disgust I found that many economists based their models on the assumption that changing the minimum wage had exactly zero net effect on the economy. Economists! Can they ever pass by a ridiculous assumption without falling in love with it?

Then in the 1990s someone thought to compare neighboring states that took different approaches to the minimum wage. The study found that states that raised the minimum wage ended up creating MORE jobs than neighboring states that didn't raise it. Republican economics--wrong again.

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
23. All economics depends on the levels of supply, demand, and the existence or absence of competition.
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 01:15 AM
Dec 2013

When demand for a company's products increases, they will hire more employees to fill that demand. If there is a very large increase in demand, the company will offer as high a price for those new employees as is required to satisfy the increase in demand.

If unemployment is low (meaning there are few people looking for work-- that is, low demand for jobs), the company will raise wages to keep existing workers and attract new employees.

Conversely, when demand for a company's products decreases, they will lay off workers.to reduce costs, since the company is not selling as much product or services.

Employees are the soonest affected by changes in demand because they are variable costs, as opposed to buildings and equipment which are considered fixed costs and which are more difficult to deal with in a timely fashion.

There are two reasons corporations offshore jobs to low wage countries. An obvious reason is that labor costs are reduced. A second reason is that it creates a large pool of unemployed people who are desperate for work, and therefore will work for lower wages and tolerate poor working conditions.

In other words, outsourcing jobs reduces the demand for workers, as it increases the supply of workers looking for ever fewer jobs. It also reduces the influence of labor, and labor unions, on government policies. Moreover, unemployed workers haven't the ability to donate money to politicians who would represent labor's interests.

Most economists spout corporate propaganda as if it were real economics because, if they work in an area requiring economics, they don't want to risk their jobs by explaining how real economies actually work

Chiquitita

(752 posts)
15. What about the spite factor?
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 11:51 AM
Dec 2013

I agree with what someone says above about a helpless workforce being desirable for those with corporatist ideology.

But do you all think that spite would figure in significantly? All those opposed to raising the minimum wage, would they have any power, if it were raised, to try to make their negative predictions come true? I'd like to think not. Anyway, I think at least $15 is where we need to be.

 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
20. What does it matter? These people are impervious to facts. They'll just keep repeating the
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 06:46 PM
Dec 2013

same nonsense about increased wages killing jobs.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
21. Their goal is to squeeze labor. The Republiscrooges are building an underclass of desperate
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 07:47 PM
Dec 2013

workers to toil in their friends corporations. They hated the 60's and 70's when people were educated and had money and time enough to engage in political activities. Now they have people who are happy to have enough food to eat.

Their goal is to NOT create more jobs.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
22. yes, a minimum wage increase
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 09:52 PM
Dec 2013

would be a mini-stimulus for the economy. Another reason why Republics are against it.

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
26. There is one problem though imo and that is without some
Sun Dec 22, 2013, 06:08 AM
Dec 2013

mechanism in place to automatically raise the minimum wage rather than trying to beg congress for such a thing since they are in the pockets of whoever gives them the most money we will just end up right back where we were eventually.

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
27. The mechanism to automatically raise the minimum wage is called full employment.
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 02:18 AM
Dec 2013

Referring back to our old economic friends: supply and demand, the reason that there is no upward pressure on wages is because there is an oversupply of unemployed labor (desperately) competing for a very small supply of jobs.

Demand for workers is much less than the supply. Corporations don't have to compete for workers by offering better wages and working conditions. Workers have to compete for the few jobs available and accept whatever the corporations offer.

The reason for the low number of jobs is because the production of goods previously produced here and sold here has been shipped to low wage countries leaving a lot of people here unemployed.

The jobs were lost because of corporate promoted trade agreements such as NAFTA and the WTO. The proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) is NAFTA on steroids. If the TPP is implemented, say goodbye to many more jobs, while experiencing even higher prices for cheaply made foreign goods.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
28. Agree with part and disagree with part.
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 08:39 AM
Dec 2013
The reason for the low number of jobs is because the production of goods previously produced here and sold here has been shipped to low wage countries leaving a lot of people here unemployed.

The jobs were lost because of corporate promoted trade agreements such as NAFTA and the WTO.

Not exactly. The "production of goods" in the US has continued to increase while employment in the "production of goods" has continued to decrease since the mid-1950's - long before the WTO or NAFTA. This graph does not show that the WTO or NAFTA affected the long term trends one way or the other.



OTOH, you are right about the effect that full employment has on wages and working conditions. Obviously, republicans understand this also and fight the effort to stimulate the economy and bring down unemployment precisely because they know that this would mean pressure to increase wages and working conditions which would, in their view, hurt profits. They hide behind a mantle of 'fiscal responsibility' to hide the real reason for their austerity policies.

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
29. NAFTA and its ilk reduced jobs in the U.S. far beyond the loss of jobs due to automation.
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 06:05 PM
Dec 2013

These trade agreements saw a mass movement of jobs to countries such as Mexico and China by American companies to gain benefits from ineffective or nonexistent environmental laws in those foreign countries, as well as to avoid paying US taxes.

If the US companies that shipped their factories offshore had remained in the U.S., their newly automated factories would still be employing American workers, not Chinese.

The money paid for the purchase of currently foreign made goods would remain in the U.S. to support American workers, and support American companies who would then hire other American workers.

Even if the number of workers in a given industry declines due to automation, new industries could arise if the money for investment in these new industries remained in the U.S. As it is, the so-called "free trade" agreements are written in such a way as to make it way more profitable than it would otherwise be to invest offshore rather than in the U.S.

The problematic deficit for America is NOT the government deficit, but the TRADE deficit, which is sucking capital out of the U.S. as well as reducing tax revenues for American governments.

When the U.S. has to, effectively, borrow money from China in order to import Chinese-made goods that were formerly made here in the U.S., automation is not the problem.

Examples of "every-day" goods formerly made here that are now imported include clothes, appliances, shoes, electronics, tools, replacement parts for all kinds of manufactured goods, and on and on.

Every "free trade" agreement profits corporations to the detriment of Americans because they are written that way by the corporations. Automation is not the problem and is not why the U.S. economy is in such bad shape.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
30. Every developed country has had a similar decline in manufacturing jobs, not just the US and not
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 06:39 PM
Dec 2013

just countries that are part of NAFTA or other 'free trade' agreements. Those other countries have stronger middle classes even though they have experienced similar declines in manufacturing employment.



The problematic deficit for America is NOT the government deficit, but the TRADE deficit, which is sucking capital out of the U.S. as well as reducing tax revenues for American governments.

Agreed. And our trade deficits with 'free trade' countries is much, much less (48% exports, 52% imports) than with those countries with which we do not have special 'free trade' agreements (39% exports, 61% imports). Unless there is another explanation, that does not show that these agreements make our trade deficit worse.

Krugman: 85% of consumer spending in America is on American-produced goods and services

Barry Ritholtz sends us to a San Francisco Fed paper from last summer that makes a point on which many people seem confused: despite globalization and all that, the bulk of a consumer dollar spent in America falls on American-produced goods and services.

The reason this matters — or at least one reason it matters — is for discussion of austerity, stimulus, and all that. I often get comments along the lines of “Well, maybe stimulus worked back in the old days, but now it just means spending more on stuff from China”. In reality, that’s nowhere near true.

Why? For one thing, most consumer spending is on services, few of which are really tradable. For another, even if the thing you buy in WalMart says “Made in China”, the price includes a lot of US value-added in the form of transportation and retailing costs.



So we’re still a country where about 85 cents of your consumer dollar is spent at home, one way or another. And this means, among other things, that the rules of macroeconomics haven’t changed nearly as much as people imagine.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/16/not-so-global/

According to Krugman, Canadians spend about 75% on domestic goods and services, Germans about 70%, Swedes less than 60%. Less than 2% of consumer spending here is on Chinese-produced goods.

The really progressive countries with the strongest middle classes spend less on domestic products and services than Americans spend.

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
32. Someone once said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Tue Dec 24, 2013, 12:29 AM
Dec 2013

This is one of those times when some research will be more enlightening than blindly accepting a bunch of doctored statistics interpreted by a group of corporate shills.

One merely has to travel to clothing stores, appliance stores, hardware stores, electronics stores, auto parts stores, shoe stores, office supply stores, or any big box stores that sell many of these items, and look at the country-of-origin labels on these items.

A large majority of the items, many of which used to be manufactured, or at least assembled, in the U.S., are now totally manufactured offshore. The American jobs went with them.

Moreover, it is misleading to compare dollar amounts of imports and exports to explain the effects of the trade deficit. The U.S. exporting one U.S. manufactured airliner at a cost of about $250,000,000 can easily offset the importation of 12,500 cars (at $20,000 a car).

These so-called "free trade" agreements, while very profitable for the 1 percent, have proved to be very bad for the American people and the U.S economy.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
33. If the statistics are "doctored", it should be easy to refute them.
Tue Dec 24, 2013, 09:40 AM
Dec 2013

It is easy to counter studies and statistics with fear and emotion. (Don't talk about global warming there is snow outside. Don't raise the minimum wage, we know that will cause unemployment, because the 'job creators' will hire fewer 'more expensive' workers.)

Fortunately, it is easy to counter what the right knows to be true with those damn studies and statistics. It is what Krugman does best. The fact is that people in progressive countries with strong middle classes spend more on imports than people who live in countries where income is skewed towards the rich.

That must infuriate "tea party republicans who are more critical of free trade agreements."



Of course it may be that increased trade does not cause a strong middle class. Perhaps countries where liberals govern have progressive taxes, strong unions and effective safety nets, which lead to a strong middle class, and just choose to be open foreigners and their products because they believe that openness is a liberal value while conservatives peddle fear of "them" and "their" products.

AdHocSolver

(2,561 posts)
34. People should judge by their own experience as workers and consumers...
Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:09 AM
Dec 2013

...rather than timidly accept the self-serving propaganda of the high priests of capitalism.

The corporations pushing so-called "free trade" agreements are of the same mindset as the corporate chicken farmers who want to ship chickens raised in the U.S. to China for processing, and then ship the chickens back here for sale. What could be the possible benefit to American consumers?

The TPP agreement and others like it will make it easier and more profitable for corporations to "frack" tar sands oil and natural gas in North America, at the same time negating antipollution laws, and ship those raw materials to their sweatshop factories in Asia. The same scheme is being planned for mining minerals.

Shipping chickens to China for processing is the vanguard action for the mining of America. There will be few jobs for Americans. However, there will be higher costs to Americans and higher profits for the corporations.

Bottom line: the so-called "free trade" agreements will effectively transfer the sovereignty of the U.S. from the people and their elected representatives to the multinational corporations. The United States will become a colonial source of raw materials for the profit of a few corporations and banks.

Turbineguy

(37,343 posts)
31. It just doesn't create any
Mon Dec 23, 2013, 10:06 PM
Dec 2013

parasite jobs. The repubs like parasites. You know, like the looters Ayn Rand warned us about.

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