Trayvon Martin shooting case goes to State Attorney's Office today

[The Backlash Cometh]

At some point today, the Trayvon Martin shooting investigation will make its way from Sanford Police detectives to the State Attorney's Office, where a decision will be made about whether the 28-year-old white community watch member who shot the Miami teen last month will be charged with a crime.

Whatever the outcome, some are likely to be unhappy.

Trayvon's family members have pleaded with police to arrest George Zimmerman to no avail.

On Monday, while an angry crowd of critics stood by, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee admitted that his detectives do not have enough evidence to arrest him.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-20120312,0,2131784.story

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Seminole County's State Attorney's Office

has a rep of being Good ole boy. However, the last one retired, and they may be in the process of hiring a new one. If they already hired him, the outcome will depend on whether the new guy is taking cues from the county, or if he's his own man. This case should determine the answer.

[Egalitariat]

49. Interesting concept. Most State Attorneys yearn for convictions. Especially high profile ones. If

this State Attorney thinks he could get this conviction, and passes up the chance, that would be truly notable.

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. Everywhere else, that's true.

Actually, the last one got an award for high profile cases. Problem was, from my point of view, he ignored everything else. i.e. he never intruded on the good ole boy's turf, which is why the cities in the county could get away with nuisance crimes such as fraud and conspiracy.

[Beaverhausen]

2. why wouldn't he at least be charged with manslaughter?

he killed that kid sure as I'm sitting here. Even if they were fighting, there was no reason to shoot him.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. It's Seminole County

I've mentioned this in yesterday's thread.

This is the county where a man killed his fiance before their wedding day and didn't even get manslaughter. She came in at two in the morning and he shot her within a distance of four feet. He's tall and she was, like, five feet tall.

In this county, if a neighbor leaves his garage door open late at night I wouldn't even bother to ring the doorbell to tell him about it. Not worth the risk.

[11 Bravo]

8. Hell, it's Florida! Jebbie signed the "stand your ground" law in 2005. Anyone who claims that ...

they felt "threatened" is LEGALLY entitled to have responded with deadly force in good old Flori-duh. Then the onus is on the police to DISPROVE that the shooter actually felt threatened.
This was a logical extension of that law, and a completely predictable tragedy.

[TheWraith]

42. No. That's simply not true.

"Stand your ground" laws simply say that you aren't required to try and run away from a threat, as long as you're someplace that you have a legal right to be--say, your car, or a public sidewalk. It does nothing to change normal self-defense laws, which say that you have to have a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm in order to use lethal or potentially lethal self defense. This has nothing to do with the law, and everything to do with the police.

[surfdog]

7. There is no case

The guy felt threatened and then killed the kid , it's well within Florida law to do so

[sabrina 1]

9. People feel threatened all the time. In Florida that's all it takes to be able to kill someone?

Btw, he had no need to feel threatened, he had called 911 and was told to do nothing until the police got there.

Seems the guy has had some problems in the past also. Assaulting a Police Officer in 2005 and complaints from other people in the area.

How does someone who assaulted a PO get to be the captain of a Neighborhood Watch patrol?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Or retain a CCW? Oh, wait, nevermind.......

This lady and her ilk seem to run the show in Tally.

[TheWraith]

43. No, it's not. That's still murder, even in Florida.

You can count on it that chances are this guy has some kind of connections, or at least his family does. If he didn't, or the victim were white, or both, he'd already be under arrest.

[sabrina 1]

45. Yes, it looks that way. I'd like to know more about the other incident he got off on regarding

assaulting an officer. Not many people get away with something like that, unless they didn't do it, OR they have some serious connections.

[MD20]

50. Was the assaulted police officer Black?

Hmmmmm!

[Blue_Tires]

17. The assclown WAS the threat, by his own admission he followed the kid to and from 7-11

If you're walking around minding your business, how long would you tolerate being followed by a stranger in an SUV before stopping and asking WTF is his problem??

If there's no criminal case (and I fear this could be the situation), it's only because there are no witnesses so Zimmerman can make up any story he wants...

Either or, I'm pretty sure there will be a civil case, especially once that 911 call comes out

[The Backlash Cometh]

23. He was told not to confront the kid.

He's going to have a tough time explaining why he broke instructions.

[obamanut2012]

33. HE was the predator

He followed the BLACK KID and got out of his car and confronted the young man, even after 911 told him to stay in his car. He was in a CAR. He was protected.

I own several handguns and a shotgun and hold a CCW permit. I also live in one of those Southern states some DUers like to slam. In my CCW class, we were told that the actions this guy took, unless taken by a POLICE OFFICER, would result in felony arrest. Even if we didn't shoot anyone. This guy wasn't a cop, or even a security guard. He should be in jail.

What he did does not fall within Florida law.

[Withywindle]

38. And why did he feel "threatened" in the first place?

What was the initial impulse that made him call 911 and get his vigilante mode on?


A black kid walked to the store and back to buy some candy. That's IT. Initially at least, (before possibly confronting the creepy stranger who was stalking him for no good reason) the teen did NOTHING wrong or even slightly, vaguely, remotely out of the ordinary. He didn't even try to buy beer underage! There was not even the dimmest, tiniest suggestion of any kind of crime being committed, at all. For this, Zimmerman judged him "dangerous."

What's that impulse called again? Oh yes, RACISM.

It doesn't have to involve a noose to be a lynching.

[obamanut2012]

40. Exactly -- 100% agree with you post n/t

[appal_jack]

48. agreed: terrible racism seems to be in play. k&r, n/t

[slackmaster]

3. That some will be unhappy with the outcome is very unfortunate, but it's certainly true.

The facts will always be in dispute.

ETA the video is interesting. The PD said there were several 911 calls.

[Hoyt]

4. This is what happens in states with lax gun laws, "stand your ground" laws, etc.

Another man with a little bit of authority and a big gun shoots a young man for being Black in a white neighborhood. I hope they discover some credible evidence to put him on trial.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. Exactly.

[ellisonz]

14. +1

See the post below friend for even more damning evidence that this guy initiated the tragic outcome.

[Blue_Tires]

20. This could have happened in any state, regardless of gun laws

and based on what I've read there was nothing preventing Zimmerman from owning one even if he lived in one of the stricter states...

Most gun owners I've known are generally safe and responsible...But you rarely see them making news because they ARE generally safe and responsible

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Which had nothing to do with the incident

then again, we are well used to you just making stuff up and creating links where none exist

[Hoyt]

25. Maybe you can use this example in your gun classes.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Actually I cite some of your best stuff regularly

as examples of cluelessness from those whom you think would support the ability of those targeted for bashing and violence to be able to defend themselves.

[EOTE]

39. So, are you suggesting that in any state, one can kill someone

simply because they felt threatened, and then get off with no punishment? I somehow think that Florida, and other states with similar "Castle Doctrine" are fairly unique in that regard.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. No, I said that in any state you can kill in self defense with a hand gun in public if warranted

The shooter's claim (as I understand it) is self defense, not Stand Your Ground. I also think his claim is most likely BS.

You are also misstating the Stand Your Ground law in Florida and Castle Doctrine in general.

[EOTE]

46. Castle Doctrine very well has come to mean you can kill someone who you think is a threat.

That's how it's being used here and it's how it's used in other states as well. That asshole who called 911 when his neighbor was being robbed and then went into his yard to kill the guy with a shotgun used it as his defense as well.

And I very much don't think what you said about being able to kill in self defense with a hand gun is true. There are many places in which hand guns are illegal to own, so that simply can't be true by extension.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. "Come to mean" is public perception, not the law

There was much more to the Joe Horn case that you mention. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy)

My wife killed a home invader with an unregistered handgun in Washington DC to save my life some years back. Never charged.

Bernard Goetz would not have been charged with anything if his life had truly been at risk.

If your are legitimately in danger of losing your life to a criminal, you can use *anything* and walk, provided your life was truly in danger, even in Wash DC, Chicago and NYC. You will not get the gun back, but that would be about it.

[EOTE]

52. How is there "much more"?

He was told not to confront the guy REPEATEDLY, he did so anyway and he killed the guy. He's a stupid, evil mother fucker who really wanted to kill a guy. And what the law has come to mean is the most important because it's not a defined law.

[Paladin]

54. I Bet You Side With The Guy Who Shot That Japanese Kid In Louisiana, As Well. (n/t)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. There are no sides in all of this

The case in Louisiana was a tragic mistake, acknowledged by all sides.

Horn was cleared by the Grand Jury. Since they are normally the DA's lapdogs, there must not have been much of a case. Even so I consider it an unnecessary shooting and use it as an example of what not to do in the classes I teach.

This one sounds bad to me. I am astounded that the local police are saying there is no contradictory evidence to dispute the shooter's story. Media stories are all over the place on purported facts, including if he was in a car at the time. Like the Horn case, I can not see how it was needed to save the shooter's life.

A side note to the Horn case, Quanell X, who first made national news protesting the Joe Horn incident is now cited in another shooting case...supporting a family member in a court house shooter http://www.khou.com/news/Deputies-arrest-brother-of-man-accused-in-Beaumont-courthouse-shooting-rampage-142729535.html

[Paladin]

59. That's A More Progressive Response Than I Was Anticipating From You. Thanks. (n/t)

[ellisonz]

11. Orlando Watch Shooting Probe Reveals Questionable Police Conduct

By MATT GUTMAN (@mattgutmanABC) and SENI TIENABESO
ORLANDO, Fla., March 13, 2012

ABC News has uncovered questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white neighborhood watch captain in Florida, including the alleged "correction" of at least one eyewitness' account.

-------

According to law enforcement sources who heard Zimmerman's call to a non-emergency police number, he told a dispatcher "these a..holes always get away."

Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.

--------

Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.

More: http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T1-6Zl2Rl_k

I think the asshole assaulted under the pretense of detaining him Martin and that it was Martin who was defending himself. Manslaughter at a minimum.

[The Magistrate]

12. Exactly, Sir: Zimmerman Committed Murder

And should be executed, pour encourager les autres.

[ellisonz]

13. I edited to clarify...

...manslaughter at a minimum. I think a second degree murder charge is possible. I don't see how they cannot charge him when he clearly initiated the confrontation.

[The Magistrate]

15. His Initiating the Confrontation, Sir, Makes It Murder

He went out to pick a fight; anything the young man did was self-defense in response to that: you cannot claim self-defense in an altercation you commenced.

The only reason anybody is pussy-footing about over this is that the skin of the killer is several shades paler than the skin of the corpse.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. I agree a second degree murder count is certainly warranted in this case.

As would be voluntary manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.

Not sure about first degree (premeditation)--as much as I would truly love to see this guy sit in a jail cell for the rest of his life without the possibility of parole.

The Seminole County DA would be wise to take a lesson from their immediate neighbor (Orange County) and not charge more than they can prove just because it is a highly sensational case. (I believe her name was Casey something or other.....)

And the worst case scenario would be for them to charge this POS with first degree only to see him walk because they can't prove premeditation.

Of course, you can always include lesser counts, but as the Anthony case proved, failure to prove the maximum count can often be detrimental to being able to prove the lesser count.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Going to disagree with you here

On another forum I participate on. I brought up the shooting as a possible scenario for the classes I teach (as in what never to do). One of the members brought up that what the shooter told the cops is key:

Shooter to the police: I backed off just as I was instructed, but when he realized that the cops were coming he came back, attacked me and said he was going to kill me. I did it because I had to defend my life".

If the state is unable to poke holes in his version of events via forensics, conviction for anything could be unlikely. A decent defense attorney will be able to create reasonable doubt in some jurors fairly readily. However, a decent criminal defense attorney costs money and he will at best be impoverished and unable to afford living in a gated community.

I like just about everyone cannot see how it could be anything but unjustified and the discussion above is almost frightening...because it seems that the local cops are going along with it.

[The Magistrate]

29. He Went Out Looking For a Fight, Sir

How the thing he provoked then developed does not matter. If you start the incident, the person you accosted and threatened has a right to self-defense --- you do not. No one has a right to self-defense while in the act of committing a crime, and to accost and threaten a person on a public way is at minimum assault.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. Local law enforcement is not seeing it that way...

The media has more contradictory stories on this one than many. However, the media conference held by the police is pretty clear. Its being turned over to the State AG and the local police say they cannot contradict his story and there is not enough to charge him.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/12/justice/florida-teen-shot/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

Under intense pressure from the community, city officials in Sanford held a press conference on Monday.

"We are going to complete a thorough and fair investigation and present all the information to the state attorney's office so justice can be rendered," Lee said.

Police said they have not charged Zimmerman because there are no grounds to disprove his story of what happened.

"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have," Lee said.

Lee said the directions the 911 dispatcher gave Zimmerman to not accost Martin when the incident arose were not mandatory instructions.

I still cannot see this as a valid use of deadly force...

[The Magistrate]

57. So What, Sir? 'Local Police Opinion' Is The Least Of Standards For Judgement

Indeed, where race is involved, it can be pretty much dispensed with....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. Actually they matter a great deal, since due to them the shooter is still free...

Have to see what happens in the longer term

[The Magistrate]

60. Power Does Not Entail Accuracy, Sir

If one wishes to judge what actually happened, the view of local law enforcement officials is frequently the least reliable source, and becomes less reliable the more elements of of race and age and class enter the question, and the smaller the jurisdiction of the police force.

There is no question the police are covering over a racially motivated murder here, none at all.

[Blue_Tires]

19. So if that's true I was pretty close to the mark

Just a wannabe tough guy moron with a miniscule bit of (volunteer) authority playing out his vigilante fantasies...What in fuck's name was Martin supposed to think when this jerkoff (wearing civvies) who's been following him gets out the car and starts asking questions or talking some citizen's arrest bullshit?

So...young black male in a gated community + hoodie + slow walk = drug-slingin' pimp hustla gangbanger...Apprehend by any means necessary -- Use of lethal force has been authorized...

If it's any comfort for Zimmerman I know a few police forces in Virginia who would probably hire him right now...

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. So glad that this is getting out of the state.

Too much is allowed to happen without penalties because they like to contain things in house.

[Blue_Tires]

31. That's my next question

Why did the shooting have to become a state and then national story for the police to put its investigation in gear? Before the investigation is complete, why is the police chief telling the media it was a justified shooting?

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. That's the big problem with this county

It's like a libertarian world. They allow community leaders and elected official to conspire and commit fraud without any penalties. They don't follow rules of procedure, and the lawyers help them do it.

[FLAprogressive]

18. This is just so fucking outrageous. He should have been charged with murder!

[cybiz]

22. You can't feel "threated" and then run straight toward the threat to shoot somebody!!

Just FYI feeling "threatened" is not justification to use lethal force. I can feel "threatened" by someone standing in front of my house, that doesn't give me the right to shoot them if they're not acting criminally. If you feel threatened your first response should be to remove yourself from the danger, not RUN TO IT! You can't claim self defense when you are running to the conflict. George Zimmer is a reactionary bigoted hothead who had a record for assaulting a police officer. He shot a kid whom he outweighed by 100 pounds and then claimed he feared the kid was going to kill him? He needs to go up for LIFE!!!

[Enrique]

27. open season in Sanford, FL

[socialist_n_TN]

30. Well, I think that if I were black and happened to find myself around.........

Mr. Zimmerman, I would probably feel "threatened". He obviously doesn't like black people and doesn't mind showing it with lethal force.

[warrior1]

32. wouldn't this also

be a federal case for profiling?

[Blue_Tires]

35. I don't think so

Zimmerman is still essentially a private citizen, and I don't think his little neighborhood watch volunteerism had any legal authority...

Ironically, it was in Fla. back in the 90s where the state troopers lost a zillion dollar class-action lawsuit on I-95 racial profiling...

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. No irony.

Can you believe that in a Criminal justice class, the teacher (who was a prosecutor from Orlando) failed to use it as an example of racial profiling, even though it was mentioned in the book?

Yeah, this place likes to keep secrets.

[obamanut2012]

34. Let's imagine Trayvon wrestled the gun from Zimmerman and shot him

In self defense.

Would Trayvon Martin been allowed to walk away from the crime scene, back home to watch TV and eat his snacks? Or would he have been arrested, placed in jail and charged with Murder Two, with bail set so high his parents wouldn't be able to get him out?

And, having cops DEMAND a witness change her story to support Zimmerman? WTF.

[JI7]

44. or a black man did this to a white kid

this story is so fucked up. there is no excuse. i don't care if trayvon even told the asshole that he had a gun and will shoot him, the fucker started it in the first place. why the fuck did he have to go after him . suspcious because of a hoodie ?

this story is making me so angry.

[pinboy3niner]

53. "There's somethin' goin' on here that doesn't pass the common sense test"

--Trayvon's father, on CNN this morning

I'm inclined to agree with him.