This is Ben. He is immunocompromised and cannot be vaccinated...

[Playinghardball]

[idwiyo]

1. k&r

[SidDithers]

2. Vaccines. And now my kids don't die...

"Use of vaccines without proper birth control can lead to explosive population growth causing severe environmental degradation, mass death from famine and heightened incidents of armed conflict due to limited resources"

"Do not take vaccines if you've chosen to die from the mumps"




Too bad the chemtrail crowd thinks it's all so much "scientific materialism" and "poo".

Sid

[Hekate]

3. That's the only real reason I know of for not getting immunized. As long as only a few...

As long as only a few people were off the hook for religious reasons, it worked well, because everyone else created a sufficient buffer zone (aka "herd immunity&quot .

But when under-educated and over-excited suburbanites wanted their children to be excused in large numbers, killer diseases could make a comeback. Old graveyards are full of children and babies who died from epidemics that swept through their communities, but great-grandma doesn't talk about the siblings she lost. This grandma, however, can tell you about the last great polio epidemic before Salk.

IMO, every pediatrician should hand out a scary pamphlet or two at the same time as the recommended vaccination schedule. With photos and lurid descriptions. It would be a service to public health as well as to their wee patients.

[Rozlee]

10. My mother lost four siblings to the Spanish Flu.

All were teens and pre-teens and all within the same week. She lived in Mexico and saw epidemics of Smallpox wipe out scores of people in villages. She said when news that an infection was discovered, people would flee with their families to the jungle to live off the land for months and hope it didn't follow them. These anti-vacc'ers never lived through times like these nor did their parents. Their complacence is astounding.

[xchrom]

4. du rec.

[Jasana]

5. I really don't get this anti-science backlash...

and this one seems to be coming from the left. I like that poster. I'm going to snatch it if you don't mind and post it to Facebook later tonight.

[Lordquinton]

8. It's not from the left

It's all from right wing conspiracy alex jones types, just look at Natural News, and see how left it looks.

[Rainforestgoddess]

14. The most anti vaccine folks I know

Are also the furthest left politically.

Each side seems to hold up science that supports it's point of view, and dismiss science that does not.

Ie right wing types and climate change, left wing types and vaccines. (in my experience, not a lot of religious types where I live, so maybe the vaccine thing is dominated by religious exclusion in other locales)

[wildeyed]

33. Yep.

I sent my kids to the lefty preschool at the Unitarian church. About half the kids there were not vaccinated. Made me mad. I felt that the parents were very entitled and had not read nearly enough history or science before making the decision. They were automatically anti- anything conventional medicine.

[Jasana]

18. Ok, honest I don't know for sure but...

these anti-vax people aren't no-evolution-6000-year-old Earth-bible-thumpers. At least not the ones I've talked to so far. Some are very intelligent but they're talking about their own children and people get weird about kids. They certainly aren't afraid of science. They even have studies that back them up. Studies that have since been de-bunked again and again and again but hey... it's their children...

And there has indeed been a rise in autism but I think part of that rise is because doctors can diagnose it better and part of it is because we've dumped 90,000 new chemicals into the earth and atmosphere and we haven't really got a clue what the long term effects on humans are. Good luck teasing that data out. One thing is for sure... male fertility is going down no matter what country you look at now and I've seen studies that indicate that men with sperm defects have more autistic children.

These anti-vax people seem smart and some even scientifically orientated but they're scared for their kids... scared in all the wrong ways if you ask me. I think some have gotten complacent in a way as well. They haven't seen measles or rubella or small pox or polio up close and personal. They honestly think their kids will be safer without the vaccines.

Okay so that's just the ones I've personally talked to. It's anecdotal. But many of them seem leftish in other views. Just my personal take.

[Hekate]

19. Your second paragraph... yes

And there has indeed been a rise in autism but I think part of that rise is because doctors can diagnose it better and part of it is because we've dumped 90,000 new chemicals into the earth and atmosphere and we haven't really got a clue what the long term effects on humans are. Good luck teasing that data out. One thing is for sure... male fertility is going down no matter what country you look at now and I've seen studies that indicate that men with sperm defects have more autistic children.

[jmowreader]

27. Another part of the rise in autism is the broadening of the definition of it

I wonder how much the increase in autism diagnosis has to do with the feds reducing IDEA per-student payouts.

The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act funds special education. This education is getting more and more expensive, and the feds are getting less and less willing to spend money on it. So...in order to get enough money to properly educate the kids who really NEED IDEA-funded special ed, the only real solution is to increase the disability rate. And the fun thing about autism is, if you push the autism spectrum hard enough you can legitimately declare every single person in America to be autistic. Introverts, according to the spectrum, are all autistic. There's an autism-spectrum disorder called "Pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified" that has traits including unusual likes and dislikes and unusual play with toys or other devices. So...if you get a kid that likes to use Barbie dolls as wings on toy planes and prefers kimchi to strawberries...yeah, ship his little ass off for a declaration of autism. (What he's not telling you, is he makes toy planes out of Barbies because he likes to piss the girls off, and that works.) The child who 30 years ago would have been just the class weirdo is now autistic and eligible for federal funding. And because there's probably nothing actually wrong with him, the school can use his allocation of federal largesse to educate the kids who have severe autism.

[Jasana]

28. That could certainly warp the stats even more...

I'm currently disabled myself. It's one of the reasons I don't have children so I haven't the faintest clue how the schools work, let alone special ed. All I remember is when I was in high school.

I can assure you that, as a teenager, I had a huge case of Oppositional Defiant Disorder every single day and yes, I do worry about how they're turning some normal childhood behaviors into diseases.

[Drunken Irishman]

25. I don't think I'd classify Jenny McCarthy as 'right-wing'.

Neither is RFK Jr.

[Lordquinton]

26. It's a right wing idea

the selfishness, the snobbery, the idea that the individual knows better than the professionals. It's packaged so well that many have bought into it without realizing it.

[LeftishBrit]

29. No, but I do think that a lot of the anti-vaccination/ anti-'modern' medicine attitude is linked to

a fundamentally right-wing view of life.

In 2010, I posted on the subject:


'It is the fundamentally *reactionary* nature of the anti-'Western medicine' ideologues. I certainly don't think that everything about modern medicine is perfect or that doctors never get stuck in dogmas that they should be questioning (I should know; my Crohns disease went undiagnosed for 10 years because of medical dogma of the time that children couldn't have it). I even think that *some* of the suggestions of the altie-med people are at least worth investigating; e.g. I think there should be more systematic research into whether some people need more than the 'officially' recommended doses of certain vitamins, though I don't think that Big Vitamin Supplement will ever provide a cure for everything!

BUT BUT BUT...

The basic proposal of the more hardline people in the altie-med camp is that we should reject all recent developments in favour of a return to the past. The argument is basically that because our own grandparents/ the ancient Chinese/ our early hunter-gatherer ancestors, etc. did not vaccinate/ take antibiotics/ take antidepressants/ have operations, we should *on principle* not do any of these things, but should consider what our ancestors would have done. Never use a new remedy if you can find an old remedy! And reject all the evidence that our ancestors were mostly dying before the age of 50, and many of them before the age of 5 (and that is the people for whom we have official records, which before a certain time usually means the comparatively rich. If the lords and ladies were dying young, we can be sure that the peasants were dying even younger!) Suspect the new; stick to the old!

Of course, not every new development is good just because it's new - but an automatic rejection of the new and an attitude that 'if it was good enough for great-great-grandma (who died at 45 after producing 8 children of whom 5 lived to grow up), then it's good enough for you and me!' seems to me the absolute antithesis of all that is progressive!!!

And the reactionary nature of the attitude sometimes becomes quite blatant. A TV celebrity argues that we are becoming 'a culture dependent on vaccines, drugs and surgery' in the tone of the Thatcherites and Reaganites inveighing against 'a culture of dependency on benefits'. A right-wing anti-public-services East Europaean leader is commended for refusing to provide his people with the swine flu vaccine on the grounds that the government (rather than the vaccine manufacturers) might have to pay compensation for any ill-effects. Far-right birther sites are treated as valid sources on the evils of the government provision of vaccines and medicines. A DU-er (ETA: they have since been PPR'ed for other reasons) argues that we are becoming a 'society of wimps' because we are giving children too much protection against car accidents, passive smoking, bullying - and, through vaccines, infectious diseases.

It seems that there are too many even on the supposed left who are prepared to swallow reactionary right-libertarian 'survival of the fittest' attitudes to health; and the anti-progressive 'Grandma Knows Best' attitude to 'modern medicine' often goes hand in hand with this.'



There are certainly left-wingers who are suspicious of vaccinations, and many right-wingers who aren't - but there is a right-wing theme to much of it. Certainly in the UK, much of the anti-MMR push came from the right-wing Daily Mail and Melanie Phillips in particular.

[SidDithers]

30. No, it's not...

Anti-vax goes hand in hand with anti-fluoridation and anti-GMO, and there's a huge anti-science left presence on the web.

Sid

[progressoid]

34. there are anti-vax people here on DU

and a lot of DUers love Natural News too.

I think this problem infects both parties.

[Butterbean]

35. Yeah, no. Not so.

http://www.mothering.com/community/f/443/im-not-vaccinating

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. Anti-science almost entirely from the right. Where you get "this one seems to be from the left"? nt

[gollygee]

16. I know people both from the right and from the left who are anti-vaccine

It's the "natural living" crowd. Some are liberal and some are conservative.

[freshwest]

21. +1. I know vegans that are anti-vax, pro-animal rights, against fossil fuels, the MIC, etc.

They reject anything they see as 'conventional' as corporate. They are not Bible thumpers, but atheist and libertarian on social issues.

They think the MIC is out to get them with vaccines, processed food, etc. I'm sure others have different experiences, but some are shunning conventional nutrition, medicine, etc.

They don't trust anything the government says, or anything that is business driven, except their gurus who are exempt. It goes with the territory.

[tomp]

31. not trusting government and business....

....seems to me to be an eminently sane starting point, from which, based on available undeniable evidence of systemic corruption, one could hardly go wrong.

There's an old example from medical schools, where the professor of medicine tells students, "25% of what I'm going to teach you is wrong. The problem is, I don't know which 25% it is."

I recently attended a lecture by an eminent medical researcher (I mean absolutely mainstream, highly recognized and honored, eminence gris) suggesting that shifts in the human microbiome, caused by use of antibiotics, particularly, but not exclusively, in cattle, is likely responsible for our epidemic levels of obesity. If that is true, and it really does seem likely, what's to say vaccines don't have similar unintended consequences. However, the bias is so strong against the anti-vaccinationists, that it's even hard to trust supposedly scientific studies purporting to disprove their views.

The facile dismissal of anti-vaccination opinion is part and parcel of a culture gripped by media propaganda. We should be open to varied opinion. I recommend that truly open-minded people take a closer look at the fundamental arguments against vaccinations.

[Moonwalk]

36. "Opened to varied opinion" is problematic in the case of science. Like Fox News "Fair and Balanced"

The thing is, when you enter into science and present scientific theory, you DO get dismissed at first. You're opinion doesn't get respect, at first. Happened with continental drift—dismissed as nonsense. Happened with black holes. Mocked as nonsense. THAT is the kitchen you're entering with scientific theories and if you can't take the heat, don't go in.

Once you present enough facts and data, then you'll get more respect and eventually, maybe, even be vindicated. But this is not politics or morality where each side might have some rights, some wrongs and they should all be respectful. This is science. Put up or shut up—with data!

And that's the way it should be with science; because it is a dangerous and slippery slope to act on scientific opinions that have no research, studies, facts or tests to support them—just fears, suspicions, doubts, or faith. Do otherwise and you end up in the Fox News camp saying that St. Nicholas was white because that's the opposite of what certain people believe (never mind the facts) and that opinion should be given equal weight and consideration to the assertion that he was not white.

Should science, whose job it is to put out factual data, really be respectful and open to every opinion based on a person's beliefs, doubts, fears, suspicions rather than years of solid study and research?

[freshwest]

37. I've looked at both sides. The temperment of most posts don't reflect that. And DU is ideological.

I was making the point for the poster above me that it is not just about ideology, it is among more than one group. And I don't trust most of what I hear or read. That is all. Your points are also good. EOM.

[RiffRandell]

6. K&R. nt

[dembotoz]

7. married to a woman how was immune suppressed due to chemo

scary shit
just scary shit

[nolabear]

9. k&r!

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Herd immunity is awesome, and your friend.

Moreover, vaccination just tells your body how to identify an invader. Nothing more. You can be fully vaccinated, and still get the illness, if for any reason the illness manages to overwhelm your immune system. You can be temporarily immunocompromised. Work out hard? Run a marathon? Your immune system will be seriously dented by it temporarily. OR perhaps you could just be exposed so strongly to the invader, that it wins.

Herd immunity prevents the unchecked propagation of these illnesses, preventing you from coming in contact at all, or reducing the incidence of contact to the point your immune system isn't ever overwhelmed, even if you're having an off day, or a post-race-day or whatever.

It is your friend. I get vaccinated not just for myself, but for everyone around me.

[slipslidingaway]

24. "I get vaccinated not just for myself, but for everyone around me."

Thank you!

[Hestia]

13. Frontline did a program on Vaccines a couple of years ago - The Vaccine Wars

Public Health Officials stated that if parents had kept on vaccinating for around just 5 more years then kids wouldn't have to get most of the vaccines that they do today. The program was that successful for decades. We were at that Herd Vaccinated point - just this close >>>-<<< - and when the "report" came out about vaccines from the guy in England, it has done kids a great disservice because now they have to have more vaccines, and sooner, to get us back to where we were in the mid-1990s.

Interesting program: The Vaccine Wars

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/vaccines/

===

I know I post a lot about Frontline and their programming but they are the best deal on free tv (why they left roku, who knows). Do I like every program - NO, especially the Wall Street apology programs - but in general at least you get a true look about topics that the program discusses i.e. vaccines.

[mockmonkey]

15. Frontline

It's programs for Roku are on the PBS Channel.

http://www.roku.com/channels/#!details/23353/pbs

[X_Digger]

17. K&R n/t

[840high]

20. k/r

[JBoy]

22. We are all part of the herd.

Don't shit in the water hole.

[slipslidingaway]

23. Thank you, my husband will have some boosters in February ...

after having a stem cell transplant, you need to have childhood vaccinations after a transplant. He is a little over three years old in one world ... yet old enough to live in an over 55 community.

Thanks for highlighting this issue

[mountain grammy]

32. This is a huge issue! I'm shocked when people from my generation are anti vaccine.

A cousin of mine is on the bandwagon and she's far, far left. She grew up when I did, when polio was still a threat and kids died from complications from measles. Every time she starts spouting her shit about vaccines, I have to turn my back on her and walk away. I refuse to discuss an issue that was settled with science years ago.