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DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:33 AM Dec 2013

How Pharmaceuticals Came To Be The 4th Leading Cause Of Death In America


Collective Evolution
November 20, 2013
by Lisa Bloomquist




Prescription drugs are the 4th leading cause of death in America. (1) People know this to be true, they know it to be appalling, but it’s still seen as incomprehensible and absurd. How could medicine hurt so many people? We all know that side-effects happen, but they are thought to be rare. They must be rare, right?

We all know some good, kind, generous, thoughtful doctors who want nothing more for their patients than health and happiness, so they certainly aren’t giving their patients drugs that hurt them, are they? We know that the FDA is a federal bureaucracy, so it must be too restrictive of the pharmaceutical industry, right? And the FDA is supposed to protect consumers, so we’re as safe as we can be, right? And people can sue, so the legal system must be keeping the bad aspects of the medical system in check, right?

All of these questions, and many more, bring up some cognitive dissonance for people when they’re faced with the fact that prescription drugs, used as prescribed, kill an inordinate a number of people. It brings up the questions - How do prescription drugs get to be the 4th leading cause of death in America? How does that happen?

Here is a tale of how prescription drugs, used as prescribed, kill people.

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How Pharmaceuticals Came To Be The 4th Leading Cause Of Death In America (Original Post) DeSwiss Dec 2013 OP
Cipro/Levaquin FQs it's victims are legion lunasun Dec 2013 #1
I am among them. :-/ n/t DeSwiss Dec 2013 #2
I was hit in 2007 took over 3 yrs to get back to normal If I eat soy a lot of crap still starts up lunasun Dec 2013 #7
I take NO prescription medications now. And I don't plan to in the future either. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #12
Good luck in not dying from that infection that only an antibiotix will cure. HERVEPA Dec 2013 #78
More like good luck from not dying from that infection that antibiotics cannot touch because djean111 Dec 2013 #107
For the last 40 years of my life, I have seen this scenario louis-t Dec 2013 #209
A med originally classified as a second choice(only after something else fails) now marketed for $ lunasun Dec 2013 #113
De nada. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #135
There are antimicrobials and antifungals BlueToTheBone Dec 2013 #165
Wow! I wonder what the names of these UTI drugs were... CoffeeCat Dec 2013 #129
5 Levaquin pills... Ino Dec 2013 #13
I almost went blind from Cipro HockeyMom Dec 2013 #30
Absolutely terrifying. Big Blue Marble Dec 2013 #3
THE major crisis of healthcare that we're experiencing..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #14
I did an interview on Fox News yesterday greymattermom Dec 2013 #17
Here's more on the subject: DeSwiss Dec 2013 #21
K&R...many of the newer Pharmaceuticals have more side effects than KoKo Dec 2013 #153
Not content with infecting just the US solarhydrocan Dec 2013 #4
they make so much money the fines are just a hit they can recover from lunasun Dec 2013 #11
''The fish stinks from the head.'' DeSwiss Dec 2013 #15
Speaking to your point on corruption, ronnie624 Dec 2013 #83
Way, way too much truth for much of DU. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #117
This message was self-deleted by its author MattBaggins Dec 2013 #151
* ronnie624 Dec 2013 #77
This is why I try to avoid medications... CoffeeCat Dec 2013 #130
I'm not surprised in the least Art_from_Ark Dec 2013 #5
Rule of thumb: LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #10
example solarhydrocan Dec 2013 #18
A perfect example of what I and LadyHawk were referring to Art_from_Ark Dec 2013 #22
Doc, is the potential for sudden death right for me?" elehhhhna Dec 2013 #152
LOL! LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #174
Being of a socialist inclination..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #16
You might find this book interesting solarhydrocan Dec 2013 #19
So how do you remove "pain and misery"? CanSocDem Dec 2013 #54
An evolutionary changed will be required first. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #58
thanks for the post Locrian Dec 2013 #87
Yep. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #118
you got it - now we need to get back to the garden - n/t Locrian Dec 2013 #170
Absolutely! ronnie624 Dec 2013 #79
The CDC seems to have different statistics on prescription drug deaths Nevernose Dec 2013 #6
I know at one point they "lost' years of Dr/PT reporting on Levaquin via FDA medwatch lunasun Dec 2013 #8
As Disraeli said: ''Lies, damned lies and statistics.'' DeSwiss Dec 2013 #9
not only the CDC, any other source you find will not list it either because it isn't. The article lostincalifornia Dec 2013 #40
So it wasn't the drug it was irresponsible doctors and a profit lead healthcare system intaglio Dec 2013 #20
Lasix killed my mother newfie11 Dec 2013 #23
We are poisoning ourselves...... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #24
LASIK is an extremely powerful diuretic, and needs to be monitored constantly.for electrolyte lostincalifornia Dec 2013 #41
My wife got sick. sendero Dec 2013 #25
If we stand back from the individual problems and issues..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #29
Where in the PDA under Levaquin? TorchTheWitch Dec 2013 #180
I meant PDR.. sendero Dec 2013 #182
there's always people that can't take a certain medication TorchTheWitch Dec 2013 #183
Yeah.. sendero Dec 2013 #185
Thanks! I'm surprised the Big Pharma people haven't pnwmom Dec 2013 #26
Wouldn't notice. I have them on IGNORE.... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #27
Awww. You think pro-science people are "Big Pharma." And yet you tried to pretend... HuckleB Dec 2013 #192
No. You are the one connecting pro-science people to Big pharma. pnwmom Dec 2013 #217
Hogwash. HuckleB Dec 2013 #223
"End of discussion." Aren't you self-important! pnwmom Dec 2013 #225
This message was self-deleted by its author Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #229
Meanwhile, all-time deaths from overdose of marijuana remain at zero. Scuba Dec 2013 #28
In 10,000 years of record use! DeSwiss Dec 2013 #31
Tetrahydrocannabinol is a pharmaceutical product lostincalifornia Dec 2013 #33
Bullshit. Heart disease, cancer, stroke, chronic lung disease, accidents, alzheimers, diabetes, lostincalifornia Dec 2013 #32
Before I put your a@!$ on Ignore..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #34
please put me on ignore. I listed the top 15 causes of death in the U.S. and you didn't answer lostincalifornia Dec 2013 #39
For many, many people both hypertension and diabetes can be controlled with diet. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #84
True, but for many that is not enough. Type II diabetes can literally be reversed with diet, but lostincalifornia Dec 2013 #100
Tim Minchin - Storm CorrectOfCenter Dec 2013 #35
I hear ya. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #37
from the Harvard link, G_j Dec 2013 #36
The gangrene has gone too far into the body politic. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #38
Thanks for this, G_j. nt Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #168
Is the article implying the drugs caused her cancer? marshall Dec 2013 #42
Muddled? DeSwiss Dec 2013 #43
UTIs are not curable by cranberry juice MattBaggins Dec 2013 #150
Nailed it...nt SidDithers Dec 2013 #158
+1 D23MIURG23 Dec 2013 #161
Actually, I have used cranberry juice for such Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #171
Cranberry juice can help with urinary health trotsky Dec 2013 #220
Of course not. But it can cure some of them. pnwmom Dec 2013 #244
Sure they are. Quantess Dec 2013 #200
Oh, really? How many UTI's have you ever had? pnwmom Dec 2013 #242
I can guess at the conclusion, but basically I think the writer doesn't close the gap marshall Dec 2013 #157
this is a made up patient using the author's experience as a basis magical thyme Dec 2013 #149
Collective Evolution... SidDithers Dec 2013 #44
Sid, if that's the only one you saw..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #46
Thanks, I saved that. bemildred Dec 2013 #65
Right.. some woo.. G_j Dec 2013 #60
Sid -I think you need to open your mind here Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #172
Sid probably has the most open mind on this thread. HuckleB Dec 2013 #175
. solarhydrocan Dec 2013 #179
Exactly nt Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #181
Green for victory!... SidDithers Dec 2013 #184
I see you don't know what an open mind is... HuckleB Dec 2013 #193
Doing a 'Sid' Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #228
...and yet there are posters on DU who go into HYSTERIA about complementary medicine Berlum Dec 2013 #45
Poo they're pimping!!! DeSwiss Dec 2013 #48
They claim to be anti-corporatist also Puzzledtraveller Dec 2013 #49
If the aid isn't proven to work, then it should be questioned.. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #159
Hey, you'll love these quality articles posted at Collective Evolution... SidDithers Dec 2013 #50
years ago on DU I posted this same info from JAMA which is as mainstream as is possible. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #85
JAMA had articles about chemtrails?... SidDithers Dec 2013 #94
No- it stated the FACT that drugs as prescribed are a leading cause of death. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #98
No. What's pathetic is the use of a source like Collective Evolution in ANY thread at DU...nt SidDithers Dec 2013 #101
What's pathetic is attempting to distract from such a serious issue, that Americans ARE dying sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #154
... SidDithers Dec 2013 #156
Thanks for kicking the thread, again. sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #173
You still have a link to that article, because I don't believe you. D23MIURG23 Dec 2013 #162
But, but... it agrees with my preconceived notions! HuckleB Dec 2013 #176
People who attack "complementary" medicine do so because much of it is outright bullshit Orrex Dec 2013 #53
My main problem with that position is..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #63
There's an easy answer to that, in fact. Orrex Dec 2013 #76
No, allopath is a correct term BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #124
That's really not up to you. Orrex Dec 2013 #134
Apparently it's not up to wikipedia either BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #142
Cling to your petty propaganda labels however it suits you to do so Orrex Dec 2013 #155
As I said YMMV BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #166
Homeopathy isn't recognized by the evidence based medical establishment, so no distinction is needed D23MIURG23 Dec 2013 #163
When there is zero scientific evidence to support it as actual medicine, then it's Woo. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #64
I will continue solarhydrocan Dec 2013 #68
Gee, that's nice. No sure what that has to do with what I said. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #71
We are questioning... CanSocDem Dec 2013 #186
Sorry, no. Things that are scientifically proven to treat illness and disease are "medicine." cleanhippie Dec 2013 #188
If it works....??? CanSocDem Dec 2013 #219
If it "works" then it will be testable, repeatable, and falsifiable cleanhippie Dec 2013 #221
Your sig'line contradicts your post. CanSocDem Dec 2013 #226
Uhm yeah, the Scientific Method is just another belief system. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #227
It actually is Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #231
Exactly Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #230
''When there is zero scientific evidence to support it as actual medicine, then it's Woo.'' DeSwiss Dec 2013 #69
Glad we agree that unsupported-by-scientific-fact "medicine" is Woo. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #73
Oh my Berlum Dec 2013 #82
Lions and tigers and bears! cleanhippie Dec 2013 #189
Whenever I see a word used repeatedly, or a phrase, to support Big Corps and denigrate those sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #81
Occam's Razor- it's way more logical to see that many are threatened by anything outside their KittyWampus Dec 2013 #88
Well, of course I didn't say any DUer was a 'paid shill'. It isn't necessary as we discovered sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #99
Like I replied above Puzzledtraveller Dec 2013 #93
Actually, the anti science, anti reality position of the peddlers of "woo"... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #164
Because it's a scam, and we should be fighting scams! HuckleB Dec 2013 #246
More aweseomeness from Collective Evolution... SidDithers Dec 2013 #47
You forgot these Sid: DeSwiss Dec 2013 #51
More batshit from Collective Evolution... SidDithers Dec 2013 #52
No, that one's from Harvard. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #55
That would be the article citing 10 references, none of which were used to support the assertion winter is coming Dec 2013 #72
You must have missed the post..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #121
Clearly, I've already read the author's essay, as I was commenting on the lack of a citation winter is coming Dec 2013 #136
Lol! Harvard = Woo now! sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #104
in Sid's defense (bleah), "Harvard" isn't making this claim foo_bar Dec 2013 #120
slow down, take a deep breath G_j Dec 2013 #61
Wait. The OP didn't link to Collective Evolution?... SidDithers Dec 2013 #62
well possessing a minimal modicum G_j Dec 2013 #66
Then why the link to CE at all?... SidDithers Dec 2013 #67
I don't know G_j Dec 2013 #70
As I posted up thread > JAMA reported this same FACT years ago. I posted it multiple times KittyWampus Dec 2013 #89
I'm not trying to discredit a fact... SidDithers Dec 2013 #91
And the mother of all batshit insane woo from Collective Evolution... SidDithers Dec 2013 #56
Holy crap! HappyMe Dec 2013 #57
And now you are spamming this thread. Edit- I just alerted. Your 2 previous posts were KittyWampus Dec 2013 #90
Spamming?... SidDithers Dec 2013 #92
And the alert failed, 5-1. I'm sure that you'll now alert on other posts, until you get a 6-0.. X_Digger Dec 2013 #102
Yeah, I know you alerted... SidDithers Dec 2013 #105
That's a lousy source to use. Why not use MineralMan Dec 2013 #59
DUers aren't stupid, they can check the source and make their own decision. NYC_SKP Dec 2013 #74
DU used to have standards... SidDithers Dec 2013 #97
Ding! Ding! Ding! Right answer! HuckleB Dec 2013 #177
And I can point out the nature of the source. MineralMan Dec 2013 #110
Oh, I think that's fine. nt NYC_SKP Dec 2013 #112
Calling DUers who don't know this OP source is bad "stupid"... gulliver Dec 2013 #234
The source article doesn't explain where the "4th leading cause of death" stuff comes from, either. winter is coming Dec 2013 #75
AND you admit there's a link to Harvard. And I can link to JAMA saying the exact same thing. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #95
I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say, actually. MineralMan Dec 2013 #111
If you "can link to JAMA saying the exact same thing", please do so. winter is coming Dec 2013 #143
Here's an interesting JAMA article... winter is coming Dec 2013 #146
And here's an old one about drug-related deaths among inpatients. winter is coming Dec 2013 #147
And one about adverse drug reactions... winter is coming Dec 2013 #148
The link to the Harvard organization posts the same paper. pnwmom Dec 2013 #249
The lack of ability of critical thinking HERVEPA Dec 2013 #80
It's actually only marginally better than placebo. Then you factor in the side effects... KittyWampus Dec 2013 #96
Can you provide support for that dangerous assertion? Orrex Dec 2013 #109
Your premise is totally ludicrous. HERVEPA Dec 2013 #114
De nada. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #132
The only prescription I take is thyroid. Faux pas Dec 2013 #86
As I've mentioned up and down thread..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #131
Food should be the main supporter of health. Faux pas Dec 2013 #190
Even IF pharmaceuticals are the 4th leading cause of death, Sgent Dec 2013 #103
In-general I'm in agreement with you..... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #127
I agree to an extent Sgent Dec 2013 #133
You don't come down with diabetes. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #138
Diet and exercise does play a role. HuckleB Dec 2013 #202
Recommend jsr Dec 2013 #106
Medical errors are the third leading cause of death: highplainsdem Dec 2013 #108
FWIW, I agree with you. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #123
Your study is about "patient harms associated with hospital care" - broadly defined. D23MIURG23 Dec 2013 #167
There's no such thing as side effects felix_numinous Dec 2013 #115
Amen. n/t DeSwiss Dec 2013 #122
I suggest the FQ/ safe drug community out there 4U re: serious discussion lunasun Dec 2013 #116
Oh, no. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #126
Kick and Recommended. Despite the apologists for big Pharma, the link between some drugs and deaths quinnox Dec 2013 #119
De nada. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #125
lol, nice pic quinnox Dec 2013 #128
... SidDithers Dec 2013 #144
If you were writing a college paper, and you cited Collective Evolution... Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #137
Well I'm not. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #139
You're posting from this website as if it's truth. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #140
How do I accomplish this? DeSwiss Dec 2013 #141
Bottom line: Why would you post a link to such a site? HuckleB Dec 2013 #195
No, I don't see it. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #222
You're the one who is closed minded. HuckleB Dec 2013 #224
HuckleB Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #232
What about your posts from above? HuckleB Dec 2013 #235
read them. Duh! Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #236
Do you want to discuss something, or do you just enjoy getting people to go on wild goose chases? HuckleB Dec 2013 #237
You cut the crap Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #238
All I see in your posts above is the obvious. HuckleB Dec 2013 #239
Hey interesting 'good bye' Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #240
I'm wrong? HuckleB Dec 2013 #241
What game? Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #243
. HuckleB Dec 2013 #245
So you can't spell it out. Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #247
And the classic Internet BS continues. HuckleB Dec 2013 #248
Anyone reading this exchange will see that you have nothing to say here. :) Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #250
And you've said what exactly? HuckleB Dec 2013 #251
Not sure what you mean about 'ethical' Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #252
You have done nothing but play games. HuckleB Dec 2013 #253
Ok, HuckleB - I now understand that you don't want to discuss Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #254
And the games continue. HuckleB Dec 2013 #255
... Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #256
And, finally, we get a full confession. HuckleB Dec 2013 #257
This message was self-deleted by its author Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #259
This message was self-deleted by its author Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #258
Big brother (the FDA) won't let the 4th leading cause of death in indepat Dec 2013 #145
Yep - another arena where the partnership between corps and gov't... polichick Dec 2013 #216
We're just players on the big stage prepped for us indepat Dec 2013 #218
As far as I can tell, they aren't. D23MIURG23 Dec 2013 #160
When you can not handle the message, attack the messenger. Big Blue Marble Dec 2013 #169
What's easy is bashing something out of context. HuckleB Dec 2013 #178
It has generated important discussion.n/t CanSocDem Dec 2013 #187
Yeah, what you consider "important" tends to be not so important. HuckleB Dec 2013 #191
And yet there are plenty of people who attack alternatives as "woo." polichick Dec 2013 #194
No, people attack scams as woo! HuckleB Dec 2013 #196
Bullshit - they also call herbal remedies "woo" even when those remedies... polichick Dec 2013 #197
Now you're offering two fallacies in one post to support whatever it is you're trying to support? HuckleB Dec 2013 #198
Thanks for the laugh! :) polichick Dec 2013 #199
Awwwwww. So you really do like promoting woo! HuckleB Dec 2013 #201
imo brainwashed fools like you are a hoot! polichick Dec 2013 #203
Uh, duh. HuckleB Dec 2013 #204
You're brainwashed. Try the natural substance the way it's been used... polichick Dec 2013 #206
I'm not the one who is brainwashed. HuckleB Dec 2013 #207
Yeah, because Mother Nature knows nothing about science. LOL polichick Dec 2013 #210
So you offer up another useless cliche and logical fallacy. HuckleB Dec 2013 #213
Anyone ever taken Lunesta? DirkGently Dec 2013 #205
This exposes the problems of allowing the "free market" into health care, more than anything. HuckleB Dec 2013 #208
I don't doubt "side effects are rare," but even a low incidence of DirkGently Dec 2013 #211
Well... HuckleB Dec 2013 #212
I agree it's a balance. Need to sleep vs. risk of suicide / homicide / DirkGently Dec 2013 #214
Most of the research does address such issues. HuckleB Dec 2013 #215
Gave me nightmares and hallucinations. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #261
"Baking Soda is Proving to be an Effective Treatment For Cancer"... SidDithers Dec 2013 #233
The Polio Vaccine Myth: “The Vaccine Stopped Polio” SidDithers Dec 2013 #260

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
7. I was hit in 2007 took over 3 yrs to get back to normal If I eat soy a lot of crap still starts up
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:43 AM
Dec 2013

eat clean and I maintain although one ankle is never gonna be right for lifting heavy objects
10 pills
In hospital ER thinking I was having a stroke -on off blindness, head stabbing pain , shaking and sudden lack of ability to walk and the fear on my kids faces that night
Fuck Pharma most of all for the fear they put in the kids
3 yrs of loss of a "full" parent to pill induced illness and income loss too.
Over the 3 +years about 25 side effects all took their turn on my body
So many have died
J&J, Bayer, FDA all know it too
Were you in the military? I always felt when i had the chemically induced anxiety and insomnia how bad that would be on someone at war . Although I felt sorry for myself ,I grieved for soldiers experiencing this in war. That is why I included the air force link above
I also learned a lesson though
I always thought people who had anxiety could " work it out" but it was something I could not control and having been a very calm and carefree type I saw the other side for awhile . It is all gone now and I am back to my calm self who hits the pillow and sleeps but I have more understanding of others and their issues now

3 yrs of my life physical and mental issues from 10 pills and then less and less cycling although I got a slight one about a year ago
and I am one of the lucky ones !!!
It did not go away after stopping the pills as I am sure you know

Like one person said when you read the possible side effects you never think that they mean you could get them ALL and doesn't go go away!

Have you seen the film by a director who was hit by the pills?



Listen to the airline pilot in that film
Pharma was a danger to all the people he was flying on a commercial plane
not just to the person taking the pills
or the case of the person who murdered his family
The FQ community was a twisted blessing to have others to relate to and get info but as fractured a DU at least a while back
. Misery really does love company......
Johnson & Johnson / Bayer have blood on their hands for many of their products There is some birth control they both had out
about that was a big story too

$$$$$ rules the FDA although I am thinking someone will jump in to defend them and they are life saving in some scenarios BUT they should not be marketed like candy for common problems where less of a big gun drug could have been used but that would cost less .........$o market the big gun for every ill
 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
12. I take NO prescription medications now. And I don't plan to in the future either.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:10 AM
Dec 2013
The first generation of quinolones began with the introduction of nalidixic acid in 1962 for treatment of urinary tract infections in humans. Nalidixic acid was discovered by George Lesher and coworkers in a distillate during an attempt at chloroquine synthesis. Quinolones exert their antibacterial effect by preventing bacterial DNA from unwinding and duplicating. The majority of quinolones in clinical use belong to the subset fluoroquinolones, which have a fluorine atom attached to the central ring system, typically at the 6-position or C-7 position. link


- If it can prevent bacterial DNA from unwinding and duplicating, it has the potential to do this to any DNA. And Fluorine is poison. In all its forms. Period.


[center]''Let food be thy medicine, and let thy medicine be food.'' ~Hippocrates[/center]





Cranberry Juice Prevents Urinary Tract Infection
 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
107. More like good luck from not dying from that infection that antibiotics cannot touch because
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:27 PM
Dec 2013

antibiotics have been so over-prescribed..............

louis-t

(23,295 posts)
209. For the last 40 years of my life, I have seen this scenario
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:26 PM
Dec 2013

play out over and over: A friend has a sniffle and runs to the doctor, who prescribes antibiotics. I ask "Why are you taking antibiotics? You have a cold, and they don't work on viruses."
Without exception, the reply is, word for word, EXACTLY the same: "Oh, the doctor said I have an upper respiratory infection."

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
113. A med originally classified as a second choice(only after something else fails) now marketed for $
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:17 PM
Dec 2013

as a first choice to doctors ( use the big gun first not last ) There are plenty of less harmful and older antibiotics being pushed aside as they are cheap/generic and not as profitable

"" although I am thinking someone will jump in to defend them and they are life saving in some scenarios BUT they should not be marketed like candy for common problems where less of a big gun drug could have been used but that would cost less .........$o market the big gun for every ill ""

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
135. De nada.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:13 PM
Dec 2013
- But I've already used up my luck being previously saved in 2009 from that shit. Twice. You can keep it.

BlueToTheBone

(3,747 posts)
165. There are antimicrobials and antifungals
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:42 PM
Dec 2013

not everything has to die when we are looking for ways to kill infections.

CoffeeCat

(24,411 posts)
129. Wow! I wonder what the names of these UTI drugs were...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:46 PM
Dec 2013

That is quite scary.

I experienced many bladder infections growing up. I was hospitalized ten times before the age of 12; and I was in and out of the doctor at least 100 times. I was on antibiotics during most of my childhood. I remember taking UTI meds. I will have to do some research...

Ino

(3,366 posts)
13. 5 Levaquin pills...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:14 AM
Dec 2013

and I had problems with my ankles, elbows, thumbs, wrists, and especially my knees. I was not sure my knees would hold me up. I had to give away my dog because I couldn't walk her. Happily, I recovered after several months, though one elbow is still very sore (two years later).

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
14. THE major crisis of healthcare that we're experiencing.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:40 AM
Dec 2013

...is not insuring affordable medical access, nor creating more medical innovation, nor free-market pharmaceutical invention, but rather the degradation of the environment, the food, the water and the air that we breathe.

Since World War II over 90,000 chemicals compounds issuing forth from chemical companies, car/toy/plastic-crap manufacturers, agricultural/fertilizer/pesticide companies and all those ''silver-bullet'' drugs we've come to expect from pharmaceutical companies have been approved for use by the various governmental regulatory agencies, few of which were ever tested for their impact upon human health.

They've ejected pollutants and their by-products into the air and into the water. And we ourselves become a major source of chemical pollution as we excrete the prescription drugs everyone takes back into the environment causing hermaphrodite fish among other environmental tragedies.

Endocrine-disruptors (BPA, covers all the plastic in the milk cartons in the fridge, or the white lining in that can of tomato sauce you just poured, or that plastic bowl you just nuked some BPA into the food you warmed up in the microwave oven) are a known particular threat, but its become so ubiquitous existing in and/or on almost everything we use. Thus making it impossible to remove from the public sphere without major upheaval and demand and huge cost to the profit line. Something TPTB wish to avoid at all costs.

- That's what's making us all sick. We keep trying to treat the symptoms of the problem and avoiding the problem itself.

Because we're afraid to confront those who are creating it.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
21. Here's more on the subject:
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:16 AM
Dec 2013
- The Right-to-Lifers should be picketing the chemical companies. They kill more children than anyone on the planet.....

http://vimeo.com/34176018

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
153. K&R...many of the newer Pharmaceuticals have more side effects than
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:59 PM
Dec 2013

the older versions that the Drug Companies don't make money off of because they've gone Generic. Many of us (without allergies to the older drug components) would be fine for most simpler needs than to hit us with the New Drugs which are re-doctored to get around patents that expired to create a "New Drug" that might have other components that have side effects that that can be dangerous.

If I had some flesh eating bacteria or some infection known to be resistant to all earlier treatments I'd try a new treatment if I was in such bad shape that it was last resort.

But, so many of these New Drugs are just doled out for treatment when older drugs could work better with less side effects.

Thanks for the post. I'm not against new drug discoveries but, the research these days is too geared to Big Pharma to make money rather than "Best Treatment Practices" that have been reviewed for effectivenes.

solarhydrocan

(551 posts)
4. Not content with infecting just the US
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:02 AM
Dec 2013

they set their sights on the rest of the world

Drug Company Accused of Bribing Doctors
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131602

Bribery And Corruption In The Pharmaceutical Sector
http://www.financierworldwide.com/article.php?id=11025

GlaxoSmithKline fined $3bn after bribing doctors to increase drugs sales
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/jul/03/glaxosmithkline-fined-bribing-doctors-pharmaceuticals

Bribery 'routine' for foreign pharmaceutical firms in China
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-23662909

That's just a few from the first page of a search- from the last year.

How soon before not taking these poisons disqualify the high deductible "insurance" everyone now must buy?

It's a totally corrupt system.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
11. they make so much money the fines are just a hit they can recover from
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:57 AM
Dec 2013

I have no doubt combined corruption here and in China will mean a financial mother load for them in the next decade or so

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
15. ''The fish stinks from the head.''
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:44 AM
Dec 2013
- Is an ancient saying, and it's still true. You cannot have a corrupt medical system without first having a corrupt country in which to run it.

Response to DeSwiss (Reply #117)

CoffeeCat

(24,411 posts)
130. This is why I try to avoid medications...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:53 PM
Dec 2013

I try to be healthy and keep my blood pressure/blood sugars/cholesterol in check because I am afraid that the solutions to these problems are just as lethal as the diseases themselves.

When you listen to the side effects that are rattled off during pharma commercials (and some of these side effects are cancer and sudden death!), it's just ridiculous.

It didn't use to be this way.

Our country has changed. We serve the corporations now. Not the people. So, drug companies are allowed to disseminate toxic substances to us, via an FDA that is stocked with former big pharma employees. It's all about profit now.

All we can do is try to stay healthy for as long as possible--and if we do come down with a condition or an ailment, then we have some tough decisions to make. Not all drugs are bad, but it seems as if these "lifestyle drugs" end up with the worst-possible side effects. They're also the drugs that, years later, we hear are killing people or causing heart disease or other horrible effects.

It's crazy.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
5. I'm not surprised in the least
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:13 AM
Dec 2013

given all the minute-long disclaimers that I have heard on pharmaceutical commercials.

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
10. Rule of thumb:
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:52 AM
Dec 2013

if the disclaimer is longer than the actual ad, don't bother to ask your doctor if it's right for you.

solarhydrocan

(551 posts)
18. example
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:22 AM
Dec 2013

ad is 1:31 long, warning starts @ 0:35



Advertising drugs to children during the afternoon news in the middle of a "drug war"?

Priceless.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
22. A perfect example of what I and LadyHawk were referring to
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:16 AM
Dec 2013

And the disclaimer was almost exactly a minute long, too!

Priceless, indeed!

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
16. Being of a socialist inclination.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:51 AM
Dec 2013

...I'd say that any commercialization of healthcare is immoral.

- Profiting from the pain and misery of anyone is just plain fucking sick.

solarhydrocan

(551 posts)
19. You might find this book interesting
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:41 AM
Dec 2013

The ideas and solutions presented in this book will not be discussed in the Major US Media because their advertisers would not be pleased.

Pharmageddon by David Healy Amazon rating: 4.9/5.0

This searing indictment, David Healy's most comprehensive and forceful argument against the pharmaceuticalization of medicine, tackles problems in health care that are leading to a growing number of deaths and disabilities. Healy, who was the first to draw attention to the now well-publicized suicide-inducing side effects of many anti-depressants, attributes our current state of affairs to three key factors: product rather than process patents on drugs, the classification of certain drugs as prescription-only, and industry-controlled drug trials.



These developments have tied the survival of pharmaceutical companies to the development of blockbuster drugs, so that they must overhype benefits and deny real hazards. Healy further explains why these trends have basically ended the possibility of universal health care in the United States and elsewhere around the world. He concludes with suggestions for reform of our currently corrupted evidence-based medical system.

"This meticulously documented book makes extraordinary claims with far-reaching intellectual and practical ramifications. It is the most powerful critique of the contemporary medical-industrial complex that I know."--Andrew T. Scull, author of Hysteria and Madness: A Very Short Introduction

"This book shines a bright light on the pharmaceutical industry (and American healthcare) in the same way that Silent Spring called out the chemical industry and Unsafe at Any Speed called out the automobile industry. Pharmageddon is Healy's most important book to date. It will make a real contribution toward healing our sick system of pharmaceutical-driven medicine and helping doctors provide better care for their patients."--Elizabeth Siegel Watkins, author of The Estrogen Elixir and On the Pill

Excellent expose
David Healy has written extensively about the pharmaceutical industry, and this book is one of his best. He gives a short history of how drugs became such big business, and why the incentives are wrong for new drug development. Healy is by no means anti-drug, but he objects to the use of too many drugs and of drugs that have questionable value to the patient. Everyone should be aware of the information in this book before filling their next prescription.
http://www.amazon.com/Pharmageddon-David-Healy/dp/0520275764/


The Revolving Door between the FDA and the industry must be closed.

HOW FDA, BIG PHARMA, AND DOCTORS CAUSE INJURY FOR PROFIT
Byron J. Richards, November 4, 2009

...The perpetrators of this fraud are the pharmaceutical companies acting in tandem with the FDA, doctors paid under the table by Big Pharma, and gullible doctors willing to write off-label prescriptions based on the hype they hear from doctors on the take and Big Pharma sales reps...

...FDA managers act in a revolving door capacity with the various industries they are supposed to be regulating. What FDA mangers actually do is more akin to the activities of a police-force bully. They seek to knock out competition for their friends in Big Pharma, Big Biotech, and Big Food, while acting as the gatekeepers of profits for the chosen few – often in disregard of the health consequences.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Richards/byron187.htm

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
54. So how do you remove "pain and misery"?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:14 AM
Dec 2013


Other than a complete planetary makeover, where would you start?

Religion??? That's where I would start.

Science??? I'd say that's where we've been and all we got were pharmacueticals...

I have my own favorite "alternative" that has removed "pain and misery" for almost 50 years and although it is percolating in the mainstream, there are still some discussions that are needed about "commercialization".

I share your political values so I'm torn over the issue when my own governments response to availability is to legislate it into a large corporation, rather than trust it to a small business free market.


.
 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
58. An evolutionary changed will be required first.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:46 AM
Dec 2013

The potential lies within everyone. Where ''we start'' is the only place where we can, with Unconditional LOVE. Unconditional LOVE is a default position in which we all respect and agree to the right of free will and existence of all others. This is what we've been here for all along. Taking ''life lessons.''

And we've brought the wide variety and the methods of these life lessons onto our selves. The global warming we now talk about is both a cyclical phenomenon on a planetary basis (all the planets in our solar system warm and cool and change), as well as an effect that we enhance through our ignorance forcing onto to a new tipping point. The result? Potential cataclysm -- and from such disasters often comes change. Dramatic change. Evolutionary change.

This evolution will be a slow or as rapid as we make it. Some of these young whippsnappers are taking matters into their own hands, starting communities based in self-sustainability and being in symbiosis with nature. Some have more ambitious plans to change the whole world.

As usual, we'll probably do something in the middle. But change is coming. Change is part of nature and you can't stop it is you wanted to. We've been raised in a system of deprivation and fear. Forcing us to live worrying about eating and having a roof over our heads, all while we live on a planet with more than enough for everyone.

- And so succumbing to our fears, we'd more often prefer the devil we know, to the scary one in the future......

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
87. thanks for the post
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:51 PM
Dec 2013

A lot of what you're describing is similar to Riane Eisler's 'dominator' vs 'partnership' societies. We are of course in a dominiator base system (have been for 3000 years). We can't even recognize it as we have been steeped in it all our lives and everything we know. There is evidence that the earlier societies were *partnership* based and quite advanced in the understanding of the cycles and relationship with the earth.

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future
Riane Eisler

http://www.amazon.com/Chalice-Blade-History-Future---Updated-Epilogue-ebook/dp/B005Z0IX7C/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386175789&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=riane+eisller+chalice+blade


Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
6. The CDC seems to have different statistics on prescription drug deaths
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:14 AM
Dec 2013
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

I don't know why, I don't know who's right, but I know that the CDC says that prescription drugs aren't even in the top ten. Unless I'm missing something?

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
8. I know at one point they "lost' years of Dr/PT reporting on Levaquin via FDA medwatch
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:49 AM
Dec 2013

computer glitch ya know
so then the cases no longer figured in to numbers

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
9. As Disraeli said: ''Lies, damned lies and statistics.''
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:51 AM
Dec 2013

Having used statistics for the better part of my former career, I know they can be made to say what one wills. I don't know who among the sources noted in this article are the most correct, but I have absolutely no faith in any government stats. None. I'll cite them from time to time (as in this case) in order to make a point, but I do so only for the benefit of those who are still tethered to this form of lie. Because for many, it's the only way to get through at all.

- The Harvard piece is the source the article uses for that statement. If you're interested in such tomfoolery, have at it and send Donald W. Light a line.

lostincalifornia

(3,639 posts)
40. not only the CDC, any other source you find will not list it either because it isn't. The article
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:46 AM
Dec 2013

itself has a disclaimer at the bottom that the opinions are those of the writer

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
20. So it wasn't the drug it was irresponsible doctors and a profit lead healthcare system
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:49 AM
Dec 2013

It was medics taking the easy way, medics not looking at the formularies and seeing the countraindications, medics and pharmacists not issuing the right warnings. The case, as described, was a series of iatrogenic illnesses culminating in death.

OK, I'm a Brit and so have the NHS; this means that powerful, drugs are not handed out in that way. Because free consultations means that at most 1 weeks supply is given with a review appointment. Most 'scripts are computer printed therefore dangerous interactions and are highlighted on screen and the patient warned. At the pharmacy a label is stuck to the packaging with dosage regimen and a warning about drugs particularly to be avoided, additionally the issuing pharmacist is supposed to verbally warn the patient.

newfie11

(8,159 posts)
23. Lasix killed my mother
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:33 AM
Dec 2013

She had surgery and was put on LASIK. After being released from the hospital to my home she started "feeling funny".
No computer in those days so researched all meds she was on and figured out it was LASIK.
Took her off it and she was back to normal. A week later she had a dr appointment and the dr felt she should continue taking it, putting her on a lower dose.
My mom then went to rehab and the original LASIK dose was given. She died in 3 days.
People are given meds that can be life savers but also killers. Meds are give to prevent reactions caused by the original meds.
It is a vicious circle.
I spent 40 years working in hospitals across America. I take a thyroid pill (downwinder) and that is the extent of my meds.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
24. We are poisoning ourselves......
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:59 AM
Dec 2013

...from even before the cradle to the grave. In fact future generations may view graveyards holding the remains of people from our time to be toxic waste disposal areas.

- Requiring special permits just to leave a nice floral arrangement of remembrance to someone who lived during ''The Great Poisoning''.

lostincalifornia

(3,639 posts)
41. LASIK is an extremely powerful diuretic, and needs to be monitored constantly.for electrolyte
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:51 AM
Dec 2013

imbalance. It sounds to me like you actually have a malpractice against the rehab facility

Very sorry for your loss. It was absolutely negligence, and should not have happened

sendero

(28,552 posts)
25. My wife got sick.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:11 AM
Dec 2013

... taking Levaquin and it is was only her careful study on the web that convinced her to drop the stuff after two days.

I have personally taken Levaquin and Cipro without problems.

A few months after my wife's episode, a friend at work was back from recovering from the "flu". He really did not look good. I asked him what was up and he told me that he had the "flu" and his dr has prescribed Levaquin (of course this is idiiotic on its face, no antibiotic will help the flu).

I told him that a substantial number of people cannot take Levaquin without serious side effects. I asked him if he could correllate the way he was feeling now with the onset of taking the drug. At first he kind of looked at me like I was nuts (ok this happens a lot but then he seemed to realize I might be on to something.

He called his dr who told him to stop taking the Levaquin. Within a couple of days he was right as rain.

I do want to be clear here. I BLAME DOCTORS FOR THIS. This drug, in the PDA, is listed as an ANTIBIOTIC OF LAST RESORT. The potential side effects are LAID OUT CLEARLY AND FORCEFULLY. Doctors prescribe a lot of medication without seriously considering the side effects and when they occur (which in the doctor's mind they are not supposed to because they are "rare&quot doctors often dismiss the possibility the drug is the problem. Doctors need to get a clue about some antibiotics, statins and some anti-depressants/anti-psychotics. THESE DRUGS REQUIRE AN INFORMED patient!

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
29. If we stand back from the individual problems and issues.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:49 AM
Dec 2013

...what we see is a larger picture wherein one part of the society we've allowed to evolve poisons the environment and everything in it for profits. The mining and energy interests dig up the poisons from below, and then begin the process of delivery of their products into our bodies with the help of engineers, chemists and scientists. Many of whom work in or graduated from public universities. With tax dollars. Great return on the 'ol investment, eh?

The manufacturers then get a shot by incorporating these poisons in, spraying them on or adding them to various products we will end up ingesting -- by lathering, laying and/or inhaling it into our bodies (and Rubber Duckies if you still chew on those). Once there, these chemicals run havoc in our bodies. Mimicking other chemicals and generally disrupting DNA function, causing cells to metastasize and our own immune system begin to attack what they were designed to protect.

We are poisoning ourselves with our progress. And you may thank science, greed and our own complacency for it. Without all of us working together and the scientists with their ''pure theory and objectivity'' which ends up allowing them to create weapons of mass destruction which threatens the whole planet. We'd have never made it this far. Because assholes.

- Only to peter-out it would seem......

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
180. Where in the PDA under Levaquin?
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 05:16 AM
Dec 2013

Because I'm not seeing anywhere that it's the antibiotic of last resort. Of course adverse reactions are listed, and there's a general warning about possible nerve damage either temporary or permanent, but I'm not seeing anything about it being the antibiotic of last resort. Under the clinical trials information for adverse reactions there's nothing even listed about nerve damage at all, meaning that in tests with over 7537 people that adverse reaction didn't even amount to 0.1% of them.

http://www.pdr.net/pdr-drug-communications/drug-alert/levaquin?druglabelid=271&id=1000005

This is just a bunch of hype. Meds like Cipro and Levaquin aren't causing permanent or even temporary nerve damage to scads of people or it wouldn't be on the market anymore just like other drugs have been taken off the market because of too high a number of people experiencing a serious adverse reaction.

I do agree though that doctors should absolutely tell you with any drug they prescribe what the most common adverse reactions may be as well as allow you to take a different drug that is much less expensive but that would accomplish the same thing. Both my dentist and my vet for my dog do that as well as recommend over the counter drugs that might be taken instead. They also always always always asks me what other drugs I (or the dog) may be taking in case there is an issue with drug interactions. Of al the doctors I've been too that prescribed any meds NONE of them said a single word about what they were prescribing, and because of that I've ALWAYS checked the PDR (my Mom used to be a nurse so we always had the current PDR at home when I lived with my parents) or called the pharmacy and talked to the pharmacist about any drug I was prescribed before I even filled the prescription.

The only antibiotic of the MANY I've tried is Levaquin since it's the only one that I don't get horrible gastric problems with that I can't go to work or school (when I was so young that I was still in school) never mind how disgusting they made me feel. The only thing that sucks about that is that it's expensive as hell, and for 10 years I've had to pay out of pocket - $200 for TEN 500 mg. pills (you'd think if was pure Heroin or something!). That's also DOUBLE what it cost only a few years ago out of pocket and almost triple what it was just before Bush The Younger.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
182. I meant PDR..
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 07:30 AM
Dec 2013

... of course but where we actually read about this is on the web on one of the drug interactions sites. More than one.

I didn't make this up and I'm pretty sure you can find what I am talking about if you look.

As I said, I have taken both Levaquin and Cipro without issues but there ARE a substantial number of people who CANNOT TAKE FLOUROQUINOLONES. That is a fact.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
183. there's always people that can't take a certain medication
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 08:14 AM
Dec 2013

Nothing new about that, and Levaquin and Cipro are hardly the worst for seriously adverse side effects, and the most serious one with fluoroquinolones effects only a very tiny percentage of people. Hell, there's plenty of meds that can actually kill a tiny percentage of people whether on their own or in combination with other drugs, foods or alcohol. Nothing new about that either.

What is a fact is that according to the PDR which is THE go-to reference about any medication is that out of 7537 people less than 0.1% had any of these nerve related side effects, and that's hardly substantial. Because a very tiny number of people out of Lord knows how many have had such an adverse reaction to the fluoroquinolone meds the PDR HAS to list that as a warning, and no where in the Levaquin info in the most current PDR does it say anything about it being an antibiotic of last resort.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
185. Yeah..
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 08:18 AM
Dec 2013

.. like the "rare but serious" side effects of statins. they are serious, but they are not really all that rare.

We'll just have to disagree on this.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
26. Thanks! I'm surprised the Big Pharma people haven't
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:11 AM
Dec 2013

already pounced on this, proclaiming it to be "woo."

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
27. Wouldn't notice. I have them on IGNORE....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:18 AM
Dec 2013

...since they serve no useful purpose.



And that means any direction you're going in......

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
192. Awww. You think pro-science people are "Big Pharma." And yet you tried to pretend...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:35 PM
Dec 2013

that you were open-minded, for so long...

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
217. No. You are the one connecting pro-science people to Big pharma.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:57 PM
Dec 2013

Not me. I didn't say a word about pro-science people because I am one myself.

Also, the researchers at Harvard who conducted this research are pro-science but not pro Big Pharma.

See? It isn't necessarily equivalent, as you always seem to think. And the managers in Big Pharma care more about big profits than about science, as this article demonstrates.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
223. Hogwash.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 02:25 AM
Dec 2013

You have proven to be anti-science every step of the way. You love every pseudoscience argument that comes down the pipeline.

I know you will pretend otherwise, and you clearly believe otherwise, but you're wrong. You don't care about science. End of discussion.

Response to pnwmom (Reply #225)

lostincalifornia

(3,639 posts)
32. Bullshit. Heart disease, cancer, stroke, chronic lung disease, accidents, alzheimers, diabetes,
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:55 AM
Dec 2013

Influenza and Pneumonia
Kidney disease
Blood Poisoning
suicide
liver disease
hypertension
parkinson’s
homicide

That is right, Advise people who have hypertension or diabetes not to take their meds




 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
34. Before I put your a@!$ on Ignore.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:05 AM
Dec 2013

...I defy to you show where I or anyone said that.

5, 4, 3, 2, 1.... Times up!

lostincalifornia

(3,639 posts)
39. please put me on ignore. I listed the top 15 causes of death in the U.S. and you didn't answer
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:44 AM
Dec 2013

you just took offense at my terminology, of "BS" when listing the top 15 causes of death

but since I am on ignore by you, I will post this for others who may wish to refute that or provide a actuarial source which shows different.

As for your only point, I agree, you never said that people should not take medicines, but again, since I am on ignore, this is for those who do not have me on ignore



lostincalifornia

(3,639 posts)
100. True, but for many that is not enough. Type II diabetes can literally be reversed with diet, but
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:09 PM
Dec 2013

type I it won't, though a healthy diet for any chronic or potential chronic condition is always a good thing along with exercise

In other words, I mostly agree with your view



 

CorrectOfCenter

(101 posts)
35. Tim Minchin - Storm
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:09 AM
Dec 2013

“Pharmaceutical companies are the enemy
They promote drug dependency
At the cost of the natural remedies
That are all our bodies need
They are immoral and driven by greed.
Why take drugs
When herbs can solve it?
Why use chemicals
When homeopathic solvents
Can resolve it?
It's time we all return-to-live
With natural medical alternatives.”

And try as hard as I like,
A small crack appears
In my diplomacy-dike.
“By definition”, I begin
“Alternative Medicine”, I continue
“Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
You know what they call “alternative medicine”
That's been proved to work?
Medicine.”

“So you don't believe
In ANY Natural remedies?”

“On the contrary actually:
Before we came to tea,
I took a natural remedy
Derived from the bark of a willow tree
A painkiller that's virtually side-effect free
It's got a weird name,
Darling, what was it again?
Masprin?
Basprin?
Asprin!
Which I paid about a buck for
Down at my local drugstore.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
37. I hear ya.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:28 AM
Dec 2013

Mother Nature spent at least 3 million years evolving hominids. And the last 300,000 evolving homo sapiens. And we've done it all in total symbiosity with our environment. That is why so many plants appear tailor-made for our physical needs and complaints, because we're tailor-made for each other.

We always easily see how a plant develops symbiotically with other animals in order to help it spread their species far and wide. Well, we're animals too. We're no different from a squirrel which plants excess acorns leaving them to germinate. Or a bird who shits out seeds all over the place from the berries its eaten. That's a 2-fer since that way the seed gets a fertilizer coating to boot!

- Since the plants are good for us, we're good for them too. We're using each other.

Then of course, there's Cannabis:



{on edit: I love Tim too!}

G_j

(40,367 posts)
36. from the Harvard link,
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:25 AM
Dec 2013


The forthcoming article in JLME also presents systematic, quantitative evidence that since the industry started making large contributions to the FDA for reviewing its drugs, as it makes large contributions to Congressmen who have promoted this substitution for publicly funded regulation, the FDA has sped up the review process with the result that drugs approved are significantly more likely to cause serious harm, hospitalizations, and deaths. New FDA policies are likely to increase the epidemic of harms. This will increase costs for insurers but increase revenues for providers.

This evidence indicates why we can no longer trust the FDA to carry out its historic mission to protect the public from harmful and ineffective drugs. Strong public demand that government “do something” about periodic drug disasters has played a central role in developing the FDA.2 Yet close, constant contact by companies with FDA staff and officials has contributed to vague, minimal criteria of what “safe” and “effective” mean. The FDA routinely approves scores of new minor variations each year, with minimal evidence about risks of harm. Then very effective mass marketing takes over, and the FDA devotes only a small percent of its budget to protect physicians or patients from receiving biased or untruthful information.3 4 The further corruption of medical knowledge through company-funded teams that craft the published literature to overstate benefits and understate harms, unmonitored by the FDA, leaves good physicians with corrupted knowledge.5 6 Patients are the innocent victims.

Although it now embraces the industry rhetoric about “breakthrough” and “life-saving” innovation, the FDA in effect serves as the re-generator of patent-protected high prices for minor drugs in each disease group, as their therapeutic equivalents lose patent protection. The billions spent on promoting them results in the Inverse Benefit Law: the more widely most drugs are marketed, the more diluted become their benefits but more widespread become their risks of harm.

The FDA also legitimates industry efforts to lower and widen criteria prescribing drugs, known by critics as “the selling of sickness.” Regulations conveniently prohibit the FDA from comparing the effectiveness of new drugs or from assessing their cost-effectiveness. Only the United States allows companies to charge what they like and raise prices annually on last year’s drugs, without regard to their added value.7
A New Era?

Now the FDA is going even further. The New England Journal of Medicine has published, without comment, proposals by two senior figures from the FDA to loosen criteria drugs that allege to prevent Alzheimer’s disease by treating it at an early stage.8 The authors seem unaware of how their views about Alzheimer’s and the role of the FDA incorporate the language and rationale of marketing executives for the industry. First, they use the word “disease” to refer to a hypothetical “early-stage Alzheimer’s disease” that supposedly exists “before the earliest symptoms of Alzheimer’s disease are apparent.” Notice that phrasing assumes that the earliest symptoms will become apparent, when in fact it’s only a hypothetical model for claiming that cognitive lapses like not remembering where you put something or what you were going to say are signs of incipient Altzheimer’s disease. The proposed looser criteria would legitimate drugs as “safe and effective” that have little or no evidence of being effective and expose millions to risks of harmful side effects.

<snip>

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
38. The gangrene has gone too far into the body politic.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:38 AM
Dec 2013

Necrosis has set in and the stench has become so persuasive we no longer complain of the smell. ''It's just politics'' is the mantra. How business is done. It's how we all ended up here, of course. No one likes to talk about that part. But I'm afraid all affected limbs and organs must be excised to save the patient. If that isn't possible, we should take the parts that are still good and begin again.

- After we've burned the blueprints from this last debacle......

marshall

(6,665 posts)
42. Is the article implying the drugs caused her cancer?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:10 AM
Dec 2013

She ultimately died of cancer. Was it undiagnosed from the beginning, or did the drugs somehow cause it? Were the drugs a contributing factor, perhaps weakening her to the point she could not survive the surgery?

The example seems very muddled to me, but perhaps the point is that all such cases are this unclear. If she had cancer from. The start then it is a case of repeated misdiagnosis. If she went to multiple doctors who did not coordinate their findings and treatment that is a fault of the system. But I wouldn't say in this case the drugs caused her death, at least not with the information provided. What I get is that the drugs made her life miserable, especially if her problems were misdiagnosed. In that case she got no lasting benefit but still had to suffer the side effects.

The article certainly identifies a problem, I'm just not sure if the conclusion is valid. Perhaps it is just as much of a misdiagnosis as the example it uses to illustrate its point.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
43. Muddled?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:37 AM
Dec 2013

I'm not sure what you expected. The title of the article is: ''How Pharmaceuticals Came To Be The 4th Leading Cause Of Death In America.''

The author then uses a singular but horrendous example of a woman who was initially diagnosed with a Urinary Tract Infection (curable with cranberry juice) and who ended up dead. The chain of events from one deathly drug to the next -- showing how that happen was clearly laid out. How her health suffered in each step. And how instead of finding out what her health problems were and curing them, they killed her instead. I don't know why it's ''muddled'' for you. The article's author also cited several references and those authors did as well.

So I'm assuming you've exhausted a review of all of those resources provided and you still came up wanting. This wasn't a story about what killed her as much as it is a story about how she managed to survived these grim reapers for so long. Maybe the hope of the author in writing this article is that people will read it and not suffer the same fate. Won't stay ''with it'' long enough for them to kill them.

It's fairly clear to me her death resulted from side effects and possibly the drugs themselves. And having once been in her shoes, I have no doubts whatsoever on how this happens. Also bearing in mind that our corrupt system doesn't allow for the vampires of the medical system and who suck our blood daily, to be exposed except for the most egregious of their crimes.

- There's just too much money on the table.....

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
171. Actually, I have used cranberry juice for such
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:20 PM
Dec 2013

and, in every case (about five times), it took a bit of time (several days), but I was eventually ok.

Think about it. Many so called drugs have natural ingredients re-labeled.

I do stand behind cranberry juice.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
244. Of course not. But it can cure some of them.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:12 PM
Dec 2013

Especially those in the early stages. And that's obviously better than getting full blown UTI's and having to use antibiotics.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
242. Oh, really? How many UTI's have you ever had?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:09 PM
Dec 2013

UTI's in their early stages can and have been cured by flooding the system with water and cranberry juice. Water or fluids alone doesn't work as well.

No woman who has ever had one will mistake that unique pain. Cranberry juice hasn't headed off every UTI I've ever had, but it's stopped a number of them in their tracks.

marshall

(6,665 posts)
157. I can guess at the conclusion, but basically I think the writer doesn't close the gap
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:40 PM
Dec 2013

Nothing in the story directly ties her death to any specific drug as the leading cause of her death or a contributing factor. Since the story itself is fiction it would have been more illustrative in my opinion to tie it back irrefutably. That is what I was looking for but didn't find. That is what I mean by muddled, because no direct link is identified, although one can assume at the very least that her health was compromised and it was ultimately the strain of the surgery that killed her. In that case I would say the surgery was the leading cause of her death, with the repeated misdiagnoses and side effects from misprescribed drugs being a contributing factor.

And in the research I did dig back to JAMA and find the original 1998 article, which only examines people who are admitted to a hospital for one identifiable time. And there is no mention of the controversy that immediately followed in JAMA about the validity of the interpretation of the data. All generally agreed that a problem was identified, but disagreed about the crunching of the numbers, as in this passage by Dr. Gary Kravitz from Minnesota:

"The results of the meta-analysis by Lazarou et al deserve a reality check. Lumping together voluminous mounds of archaic data with more recent data from a nonrepresentative sample of hospitalized patients and then extrapolating to the entire US patient population can lead to egregious errors. Many minor ADRs go unreported, as suggested by Bates, but I doubt this is true of deaths due to ADRs. It is not possible to sweep that many bodies under the rug. The problem of serious ADRs should not be compounded with erroneous estimates of their mortality. The study by Lazarou et al grossly overestimates the magnitude of this problem."

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
149. this is a made up patient using the author's experience as a basis
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:40 PM
Dec 2013

And it is quite clear if you read through the article. The paragraph just ahead of Conclusion:

Humira, Enbrel and other TNF inhibiting drugs CAUSE CANCER. This is well documented and known. The warning labels for both Humira and Enbrel state in a big black box warning that various cancers are associated with use of those drugs. In case it needs to be spelled out, cancer can be deadly. Here is an excellent blog post about how Humira can kill, and how it is marketed – http://davidhealy.org/welcome-to-the-humiraverse/ - See more at: http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/11/20/how-pharmaceuticals-came-to-be-the-4th-leading-cause-of-death-in-america/#sthash.UY4Mrbkk.dpuf

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
44. Collective Evolution...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:41 AM
Dec 2013

for all your anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation, 9/11 Truth, Boston bombing truth, medical woo, conspiracy theory needs.

Sources matter.

Sid

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
46. Sid, if that's the only one you saw.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:46 AM
Dec 2013

...I can't say I'm surprised.

- Selective rationality seems to be your strong suit.....


''The materialist fundamentalists are funnier than the Christian fundamentalists, because they think they're rational!'' ~Robert Anton Wilson

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
172. Sid -I think you need to open your mind here
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:41 PM
Dec 2013

I saw a post of yours that mentioned you are a Dad? My kids are grown, but even back when, drugs were a last resort for me.

I worked for a company back in the 90's that published journals for doctors and the pharma industry. I didn't like the fact that the public was not informed about possible side effects of drugs at that time - and I made this an issue with my manager. I decided to leave that company for unrelated issues, but now that drug companies have to (1) advertise to consumers, and (2)
they have to let consumers know about the side effects of a particular drug - this is way better than it was back then.

I know you have me on ignore, but I really hope you see this.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
193. I see you don't know what an open mind is...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:36 PM
Dec 2013

Here's what it is, since you clearly need to be informed.

Berlum

(7,044 posts)
45. ...and yet there are posters on DU who go into HYSTERIA about complementary medicine
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:44 AM
Dec 2013

...and routinely denigrate it all as woo, in hopes people will be dissuaded from using their own intelligence to evaluate it.

A deviously clever way to distract attention from the plenteous & persistently pernicious problems of poo* they are pimping.



* unadulterated soul-dead scientific materialism

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
49. They claim to be anti-corporatist also
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:50 AM
Dec 2013

At the same time they deride those who question or seek aid outside of big pharma.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
159. If the aid isn't proven to work, then it should be questioned..
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:51 PM
Dec 2013

...as is the case with most alternative medicines.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
50. Hey, you'll love these quality articles posted at Collective Evolution...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:53 AM
Dec 2013

Neurosurgeon Voices Health Concerns Over Geoengineering and Chemtrails

“Chemtrails Are Happening All Over The World” According to Former British Columbia Premier

Geoengineering & Chemtrails: What In The World Are They Spraying? And Why?

The Recent Increase In Chemtrails


The truth is out there!!



Sid

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
98. No- it stated the FACT that drugs as prescribed are a leading cause of death.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:06 PM
Dec 2013

And your attempts to derail the conversation are pathetic.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
154. What's pathetic is attempting to distract from such a serious issue, that Americans ARE dying
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:03 PM
Dec 2013

from Prescription drugs, under the guise of assuming that we here on DU are all too stupid to know how to cross check sources. DUers, and I know this will come as a real shock to you, are more than capable of cross-checking sources without your help.

As has been pointed out to you multiple times, in this thread, the information in the OP is NOT new information and anyone who lives in this country, such as myself, is more likely than not to know of someone who has either died or been seriously harmed by prescription drugs. In my own case I know of two people who tragically died as a result of prescription drugs and one who is disabled for life. This is a SERIOUS ISSUE here in the US.

You have contributed nothing of value to this thread other than attempt to derail it. And the question so many people have about this kind of thing is 'why'?

You have said NOTHING about the issue itself, not a word.

Stop insulting DUers with your assumptions that we are incapable of deciding what to read and what not to read. It is extremely insulting.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
162. You still have a link to that article, because I don't believe you.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:12 PM
Dec 2013

And I would love to read it (and also check to see if its been retracted) if you do.

Orrex

(63,216 posts)
53. People who attack "complementary" medicine do so because much of it is outright bullshit
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:01 AM
Dec 2013

If people want to burn their ear candles or drink their yak urine or whatever, I say go for it. But when positive, unsubstantiated claims are made about the efficacy of these "treatments," that's when reasonable critics will raise objections.

It is entirely reasonable to object to unsafe products that are claimed to be safe.
It is entirely reasonable to object to useless products that are claimed to have actual health benefits.

These are not mutually exclusive.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
63. My main problem with that position is.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:05 AM
Dec 2013

...that it appears to expect that the same sources who now control the current allopathic system to now verify the efficacy of the treatments in a field in which they have a vested interest in their failure. And with us living in a pit of corruption (in case you hadn't noticed), that's probably important in keeping things the way they are and to slime the alternatives as heavily and as often as possible.

- So if it seems I'm casting aspersions upon the so-called reputation of medical science, then you may consider them aspersed.

{on edit}: BTW, maybe you could also check into these guys at the FDA. They don't seem too big on ''efficacy.''

FDA lets drugs approved on fraudulent research stay on market



Orrex

(63,216 posts)
76. There's an easy answer to that, in fact.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:05 PM
Dec 2013

Let the advocates of complementary medicine demonstrate that such treatments work. It is not the responsibility of established medicine to disprove every claimed treatment and therapy; it is up to the proponents of that treatment to make their case.

I often hear the claim that this is intended as a deliberate obstacle to new methods of treatment, but that's simply not the case; it would be grossly irresponsible to endorse a form of treatment without subjecting it to rigorous, peer-reviewed trials. In practice it is a far better system, even allowing your claims of corruption, than the word-of-mouth method of verifying alternative treatments.

And with us living in a pit of corruption (in case you hadn't noticed), that's probably important in keeping things the way they are and to slime the alternatives as heavily and as often as possible.
I'll overlook the condescending tone and invite you to list all of the varieties of alternative medicine that actually work but which are kept out of the mainstream due to this pit of corruption. Be specific, please. If you can't name them, then what, exactly, is being suppressed?

Alternative medicine is a multi-billion dollar business. If proponents of that industry had any interest in demonstrating the true efficacy of the treatments, they have plenty of resources with which to mount effective, verifiable trials. Let the proponents make their case, rather than simply complaining that they're being kept down.


Also, "allopath" is a pejorative term of propaganda that suggests an anti-science bias.

BuddhaGirl

(3,608 posts)
124. No, allopath is a correct term
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:28 PM
Dec 2013

And it is widely used, and not as a pejorative (except for those opposed to alternative medicine.)

Allopathic medicine.

Allopath.




Orrex

(63,216 posts)
134. That's really not up to you.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:12 PM
Dec 2013
Use of the term remains common among homeopaths and has spread to other alternative medicine practices. The meaning implied by the label has never been accepted by conventional medicine and is still considered pejorative by some.[12] More recently, some sources have used the term "allopathic", particularly American sources wishing to distinguish between Doctors of Medicine (MD) and Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine (DO) in the United States.[8][9][13] William Jarvis, an expert on alternative medicine and public health,[14] states that "although many modern therapies can be construed to conform to an allopathic rationale (e.g., using a laxative to relieve constipation), standard medicine has never paid allegiance to an allopathic principle" and that the label "allopath" was "considered highly derisive by regular medicine.
From Wikipedia

Why not use the terms "convention" or "actual" medicine? Why pick a term coined by the founder of hoemopathy, an opponent of conventional medicine?

BuddhaGirl

(3,608 posts)
142. Apparently it's not up to wikipedia either
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:43 PM
Dec 2013

"According to MedTerms Dictionary, allopathic medicine is defined as "The system of medical practice which treats disease by the use of remedies which produce effects different from those produced by the disease under treatment. M.D.s practice allopathic medicine. The term "allopathy" was coined in 1842 by C.F.S. Hahnemann to designate the usual practice of medicine (allopathy) as opposed to homeopathy, the system of therapy that he founded based on the concept that disease can be treated with drugs (in minute doses) thought capable of producing the same symptoms in healthy people as the disease itself."

http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/health/allopathic.html

Other definitions don't mention "pejorative" - but we each latch on to what fits our viewpoint.

Don't like it? Don't use it.

Allopathic.

Allopath.

TEHO.

Orrex

(63,216 posts)
155. Cling to your petty propaganda labels however it suits you to do so
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:23 PM
Dec 2013

At the end of the day, there's medicine that works, and then there's alternative or imaginary medicine.

BuddhaGirl

(3,608 posts)
166. As I said YMMV
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:59 PM
Dec 2013

Allopathic is apparently a more widely accepted term and not just a "pejorative" but your entitled to your opinion, of course.

Some allopathic works, some doesn't.

It has its place, just as alternative medicine does.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
163. Homeopathy isn't recognized by the evidence based medical establishment, so no distinction is needed
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:17 PM
Dec 2013

Water doesn't cure anything but dehydration.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
64. When there is zero scientific evidence to support it as actual medicine, then it's Woo.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:08 AM
Dec 2013

Ad when there is scientific evidence showing that its not even medicine at all, it's Woo.

Sure, some treatments that are unconventional seem to hold promise, but if they cannot be scientifically proven to work, then it's Woo.

Homeopathy is a prime example of total Woo.

solarhydrocan

(551 posts)
68. I will continue
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:27 AM
Dec 2013

to treat myself whenever I see fit- with whatever I choose.

No one will ever stop me because I own my body.

People can type whatever they damn well please onto a million internet forums but it won't change the simple fact that I will decide what is right for me. Nothing will change that. Ever.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
71. Gee, that's nice. No sure what that has to do with what I said.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:33 AM
Dec 2013

You can continue to do whatever you want to. No one said you couldn't.

Or was your comment supposed to be some kind of counter-argument to the fact that homeopathy is scientifically proven to not be medicine? If so, your "argument" is lacking any scientific value whatsoever, just like homeopathy.

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
186. We are questioning...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 09:40 AM
Dec 2013


...your definition of "MEDICINE". Clearly there are many different kinds of "medicine" for many different kinds of disease. There is also a long-standing liberal principle of Personal Choice that is unquestionably relevant in a discussion of personal and public health.

If 'science' was interested in "medicine", cannabis would have been legal 40 years ago.

.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
188. Sorry, no. Things that are scientifically proven to treat illness and disease are "medicine."
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 10:32 AM
Dec 2013

Everything else is not.

Certainly, there are things that have yet to be discovered or scientifically tested that hold promise, but those that have been tested and failed, like homeopathy, are not medicine by any definition.

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
219. If it works....???
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 05:48 PM
Dec 2013


Is it "medicine"? And if all you're trying to do is make the ' consumer' comfortable, is it really "a medicine"?

.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
221. If it "works" then it will be testable, repeatable, and falsifiable
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 06:47 PM
Dec 2013

This is basic Scientific Method stuff were taling here.

"It works for me" means nothing.

Either it is or it is not scientifically proven. There is no in between.

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
226. Your sig'line contradicts your post.
Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:44 AM
Dec 2013


"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" - Carl Sagan

You treat "science" like it is some kind of holy truth with its' canons, rituals and divinities and heretics, like me, without realizing it is just another belief system that is keeping you 'satisfied and reassured'.

"It works for me" is YOUR authority as well as mine, so I would say it means a lot. However, in a free-market health industry, the message has to be "It works for everybody!"

Even if it doesn't.

I'm truly amazed that any thinking person can invest so heavily in a belief system that is so detrimental to their own well being.

.

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
231. It actually is
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:00 PM
Dec 2013

It is far from perfect and it depends on past knowledge. I was educated as a researcher in my very earlier life (MA in research methodology, measurement, and evaluation from NYU), and so I have an inside view of the scientific method.

Anyone that believes the results of a study without checking into the methodology should rethink.

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
230. Exactly
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 02:47 PM
Dec 2013

We are severely limited by our senses and what some seem to think are 'advanced' technological advances. We do have brain power, but I have been wanting to know this for quite some time: How did our own small universe start? How did it happen that there was nothing and then there were planets, etc.? How were the stars formed from nothingness? There are some theories, but nothing measures up as far as I am concerned.

No scientist from here has definitely answered these questions - and this tells me that we are a pretty rudimentary planet with a tremendous amount of info to learn.

So much for the scientific method - it is quite limited and, while it is the best we can do right now, it is far from really being able to provide complete answers to so many of our questions.

We are not as advanced and intelligent as we think we are - at least this is how I think.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
69. ''When there is zero scientific evidence to support it as actual medicine, then it's Woo.''
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:30 AM
Dec 2013

Agreed. As long as the same one's with everything to lose by that proof, aren't the ones doing the verifications, I have no problem with it. For example, i'd expect that all testing be done according to scientific protocols like tests for over a two year period at minimum. Testing differences between sexes. Etc.

- You know, all the regular stuff that all the big boys are supposed to follow.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
81. Whenever I see a word used repeatedly, or a phrase, to support Big Corps and denigrate those
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:38 PM
Dec 2013

who try to get some facts out, words like 'woo' eg, not just repeated by one person, but by several, I know that the Big Corps have paid for a campaign to silence anyone who questions them.

Have you ever noticed that supporters of Global Corps can be found using repeated 'talking points', phrases, words, eg 'woo' while those with nothing to gain but finding the facts, use their OWN WORDS?

I first noticed this during the Bush years. When arguing with Right Wingers they all sounded the same, using the same 'insults' for 'liberals' to the point where I began to wonder if they were NOT all the same person. Then I learned about 'talking points'.

I had never experienced that before, several people all using the same, mostly very lame btw, 'talking points' and asked to speak in their own words, like WE, liberals, were noticeably doing by contrast.

Dems began to pick this up around 2004 in order to attack the left wing of the party.

When I see this 'language' being used now, I know I cannot trust the source.


'Woo'!

I like your word for the tactic and will follow their example and use it often!

'Poo'! That is all it is. They never, EVER discuss anything. It's almost as if there is a training center somewhere that teaches 'do not dare get into a discussion, just fling as much Poo around as you can in order to derail discussions where facts might be revealed'.

Except it doesn't work. And the older it gets the less it works.

This thread is excellent and I am very glad to have seen it as I believe prescription drugs helped kill my MIL a few years ago. Taken off statins, which she did not need, by a good doctor, unfortunately when she went for a check up to the hospital, they prescribed again.

People become addicted to them, dependent on them, as she did and once a doctor prescribes them, they are afraid not to take them.

I have never been on prescription drugs of any kind and intend to keep it that way after what I've seen among my family and friends.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
88. Occam's Razor- it's way more logical to see that many are threatened by anything outside their
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:53 PM
Dec 2013

materialistic box and attack it.

That's why so many bleat "woo" at anything that doesn't come with a corporate seal of approval.

It's merely conditioning and the inability to abide things that call their world view in question.

Entirely normal response.

Resorting to calling these people and DU'ers as paid for shills is ridiculous and unnecessary.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
99. Well, of course I didn't say any DUer was a 'paid shill'. It isn't necessary as we discovered
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:07 PM
Dec 2013

way back when studying these tactics, to have everyone on the payroll. When some actual operatives were uncovered on different forums, one I'm thinking of specifically, they were just a few, two or three who attracted a following of those who are naturally attracted to authoritarianism but were not being paid as their goal isn't money, it is as you pointed out to an extent, to feel protected in their small, selfish world.

The words used are not normal words for people to use in the course of conversation making them easily identifiable as coming from some Think Tank (see the exposed emails of HB Gary eg where they discussed how to smear Glenn Greenwald on Internet forums). That was not a surprise by that time as people had already figured it out.

I can't recall ever feeling the need to use other people's words to express an opinion, and I notice neither do most of DU's most respected members.

So, I repeat, whenever I see someone using Think Tank Words and they are easily recognizable, on a forum like this, I know they are followers, insecure people who need to protect their small, selfish corner of the world and the Propagandists who prepare this material, depend on THEM to spread it around and they don't even have to pay most of them.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
93. Like I replied above
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:04 PM
Dec 2013

So many of these types would also try to say they are against corporations yet deride anyone who seeks information for themselves or alternative therapies. More proof much of the left has been bought and paid for IMO.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
164. Actually, the anti science, anti reality position of the peddlers of "woo"...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 08:22 PM
Dec 2013

...(and no, the term woo is not code word for some vast conspiracy) just underscore the fact that many progressives are just as capable of irrational thought as conservatives, just in a different direction.

And the amount of money wasted on ineffective alternative medicine is crazy. It's a huge business that makes a lot of deceptive people millions every year.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
47. More aweseomeness from Collective Evolution...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:49 AM
Dec 2013

The Global Warming Hoax Blown Open


Sandy Hook Shooting Continues To Be Exposed


‘Boston Bombers’ Tsarnaev brothers: Why Don’t The Dots Connect?


Illuminati Insiders Speak Out About The Secret Workings of The Elite Group


and on and on and on....


Sid

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
51. You forgot these Sid:
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:53 AM
Dec 2013

References

1. Lexchin J. New drugs and safety: what happened to new active substances approved in Canada between 1995 and 2010? Archives of Internal Medicine 2012 (Nov 26);172:1680-81.

2. Hilts PJ. Protecting America's Health: The FDA, Business and One Hundred Years of Regulation. New York: Alfred A. Knopf; 2003.

3. Rodwin M. Conflicts of interest, institutional corruption, and Pharma: an agenda for reform. Journal of Law, Medicine & Ethics 2012;40:511-22.

4. Rodwin M. Reforming pharmaceutical industry-physician financial relationships: lessons from the United States, France, and Japan. Journal of Law, Medicine & Ethics 2011(Winter):2-10.

5. Sismondo S. Ghost management. PLoS Medicine 2007;4:1429-33.

6. Sismondo S, Doucet M. Publication ethics and the ghost management of medical publication. Bioethics 2010;24:273-83.

7. Schondelmeyer S, Purvis L. Rx Price Watch Report. Washington DC: American Association of Retired Persons 2012.

8. Kozauer N, Katz R. Regulatory innovation and drug development for early-stage Alzheimer's disease. New England Journal of Medicine 2013 (Mar 13);DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1302513

9. Young JH. The Toadstool Millionaires: a social history of patent medicines in America before federal regulation. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press; 1961.

10. Schiff G, Galanter W, Duhig J, et al. Principles of conservative prescribing. Archives of Internal Medicine 2011;171:1433-30.

- If you're gonna sling shit for a living you should make sure you know WTF you're doing.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
52. More batshit from Collective Evolution...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:57 AM
Dec 2013

Possibly The Most Fascinating UFO Footage Ever Captured On Camera

The Shocking Truth About Alien Abductions (Powerful Video Evidence)

The Biggest Secret: Do Reptilian-Human Hybrids Run Our World?

and my particular favourite:

Wikileaks Cables Confirm Existence of Extraterrestrial Life



Awesome sourcing.

Sid

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
55. No, that one's from Harvard.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:21 AM
Dec 2013

It's the article that the CE piece is based upon. You know, talking about ethics. And how the stuff just seems to be so much in absence these days......

- Have a nice day! Ya hear?

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
72. That would be the article citing 10 references, none of which were used to support the assertion
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:34 AM
Dec 2013

that pharmaceutical drugs are the 4th leading cause of death? It would be useful to know the source of that claim, as it blatantly contradicts the CDC's list.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
121. You must have missed the post.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:11 PM
Dec 2013

...where I said I couldn't give a rat's ass over government stats. Inasmuch as I used to collect, prepare and publish them, I know from whence they cometh and whither they goeth.

But once again I refuse to do other's homework. If you wish to know: SEEK. And ye shall find. Or just believe what you want and find some stats to fit it. That's what most people do anyway.

- Here's the link to the author's essay. His email address is there too. Good luck and let us know how things turned out, okay?

http://www.ethics.harvard.edu/lab/blog/312-risky-drugs

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
136. Clearly, I've already read the author's essay, as I was commenting on the lack of a citation
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:14 PM
Dec 2013

supporting his assertion about the relative deadliness of pharmaceuticals. Or perhaps there's an invisible eleventh reference to "Shit I Made Up Because Government Statistics Don't Support My Worldview". If the author's done a study in this area, he should be citing it to promote his own work. If someone else has done such a study, he should still be citing it, as an academic courtesy and to show why we should take that statement seriously. "No reference" = "no credibility".

foo_bar

(4,193 posts)
120. in Sid's defense (bleah), "Harvard" isn't making this claim
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:08 PM
Dec 2013
Disclaimer: The assessment and views expressed here are solely the author’s and do not necessarily reflect those of persons or institutions to which he is associated.

http://www.ethics.harvard.edu/lab/blog/312-risky-drugs

That said,

Prescription drugs are the 4th leading cause of death.

Ibid.

The author doesn't provide a citation for this claim, and possibly with good reason: 1) it appears to be based on unsourced (ballpark?) estimates, or at least CDC's estimates might indicate otherwise, 2) the claim isn't very well phrased (leading cause of death... where? Presumably the US, since that's where we seem to focus our attention), 3) it isn't clear if this figure includes accidental (or intentional) overdoses, which the CDC might file under "unintentional injuries" or "intentional self-harm" respectively, so 4) it's difficult to extract any specific meaning from this sentence, except that the number of drug-themed fatalities (in the US?) is presumably quite high, although even ranking it is a little misleading, considering #3 through 8 combined add up to about the same number as #2 alone (per CDC..)

With all of that said, I agree with the author's premise that there's a (probably difficult to quantify) cost to society from having a toothless/corrupt FDA, and that "informed consent" is sort of a legal fiction when doctors and patients are bombarded by false and misleading information from pharma's collective marketing efforts unrestrained by oversight.

G_j

(40,367 posts)
66. well possessing a minimal modicum
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:18 AM
Dec 2013

of intelligence, I found the original source right away, and found the information quite compelling. Of course we wouldn't want to actually discuss that, would we?

G_j

(40,367 posts)
70. I don't know
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:31 AM
Dec 2013

it's not my post.
I was interested in the subject so I pursued it through the links provided.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
89. As I posted up thread > JAMA reported this same FACT years ago. I posted it multiple times
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:54 PM
Dec 2013

over my years at DU.

JAMA is as mainstream as possible.

So your attempt to discredit a FACT that makes you uncomfortable ends up making you look silly.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
91. I'm not trying to discredit a fact...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:58 PM
Dec 2013

I'm displaying why a particular website isn't credible.

The Collective Evolution website linked in the OP is filled with piles upon piles of horseshit, yet the OP chose to send us there.

Sources matter. If the information is credible, it will be reported at a credible site.

Collective Evolution ain't it.

Sid

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
56. And the mother of all batshit insane woo from Collective Evolution...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:43 AM
Dec 2013

Take Back Your Power – How to Mitigate the Harmful Effects of Smart Meters



Seriously. If the website you're linking to is anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation, antibiotics cause autism, chemtrails are real, aliens are among us, 9/11 truther, Boston bombing truther, Sandy Hook truther, global warming denialist, NWO, Illuminati nutbars, it's time to find a new source.

Nice job.

Sid

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
57. Holy crap!
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:46 AM
Dec 2013


I guess I should have just eaten some leaves and applied a poultice - that would have cured my cancer.
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
90. And now you are spamming this thread. Edit- I just alerted. Your 2 previous posts were
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:55 PM
Dec 2013

sufficient to get your jollies off.

I sincerely hope you don't manage to disrupt this conversation and people recognize your posts for what they are.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
92. Spamming?...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:03 PM
Dec 2013

Spamming would be posting the same thing over and over.

I'm providing multiple examples of why the site linked in the OP is batshit crazy.

And I might even provide a few more examples. There's a wealth of woo to choose from at Collective Evolution. I particularly like this one:


Obama Admits He’s A Sociopath: “I’m Really Good At Killing People”


Sid

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
102. And the alert failed, 5-1. I'm sure that you'll now alert on other posts, until you get a 6-0..
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:11 PM
Dec 2013

.. and lose alerting privileges for 24 hours.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
59. That's a lousy source to use. Why not use
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:55 AM
Dec 2013

the link in the source article instead? The place you linked to is full of crappy articles that include articles on chemtrails, for pete's sake. It is not a trustworthy source, but is, instead, an advocacy website. Rather than present information in a neutral way, it slants its articles to promote it's advocacy position.

You have a link to a Harvard organization. Why not post an article from that source?

Consider the source, folks. This thread has a bad source that shouldn't be trusted to provide factual information.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
74. DUers aren't stupid, they can check the source and make their own decision.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:58 AM
Dec 2013

I can look at a batshit crazy site and find a few articles that go back to a legitimate source, but I might not find another article making that point and using that source.

Am I then to not post at all?

I think we can all see bullshit and pick out the gems.

I happen to think the main points of the article are correct. I don't care what other articles they might offer about chemtrails or UFOs.

JMHO.

gulliver

(13,186 posts)
234. Calling DUers who don't know this OP source is bad "stupid"...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:30 PM
Dec 2013

...is kind of offensive in my opinion. I don't mind trusting MineralMan on the evaluation of this source. It saves me time. I'm happy to have posts evaluating OP sources, and that doesn't make me stupid.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
75. The source article doesn't explain where the "4th leading cause of death" stuff comes from, either.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:00 PM
Dec 2013

It's merely stated as an article of faith, which is piss-poor scholarship.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
111. I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say, actually.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:17 PM
Dec 2013

I wrote what I wrote, and you are correct. If you can, please link to a JAMA article saying that Pharmaceuticals are the 4th leading cause of death. I'd be interested in reading that article. I do not believe you can link to any such statement.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
143. If you "can link to JAMA saying the exact same thing", please do so.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:49 PM
Dec 2013

I'd like to read such an article. I've no doubt that there are drug-related deaths, but "4th leading cause" seems unlikely.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
146. Here's an interesting JAMA article...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:28 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23842577

Years of life lost due to premature mortality (YLLs) were computed by multiplying the number of deaths at each age by a reference life expectancy at that age. Years lived with disability (YLDs) were calculated by multiplying prevalence (based on systematic reviews) by the disability weight (based on population-based surveys) for each sequela; disability in this study refers to any short- or long-term loss of health. Disability-adjusted life-years (DALYs) were estimated as the sum of YLDs and YLLs. Deaths and DALYs related to risk factors were based on systematic reviews and meta-analyses of exposure data and relative risks for risk-outcome pairs. Healthy life expectancy (HALE) was used to summarize overall population health, accounting for both length of life and levels of ill health experienced at different ages.

US life expectancy for both sexes combined increased from 75.2 years in 1990 to 78.2 years in 2010; during the same period, HALE increased from 65.8 years to 68.1 years. The diseases and injuries with the largest number of YLLs in 2010 were ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, stroke, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and road injury. Age-standardized YLL rates increased for Alzheimer disease, drug use disorders, chronic kidney disease, kidney cancer, and falls. The diseases with the largest number of YLDs in 2010 were low back pain, major depressive disorder, other musculoskeletal disorders, neck pain, and anxiety disorders. As the US population has aged, YLDs have comprised a larger share of DALYs than have YLLs. The leading risk factors related to DALYs were dietary risks, tobacco smoking, high body mass index, high blood pressure, high fasting plasma glucose, physical inactivity, and alcohol use.


"Drug use disorders" refers to substance abuse.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
147. And here's an old one about drug-related deaths among inpatients.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:32 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/576326
Among 26,462 carefully monitored medical inpatients, 24, or 0.9 per 1,000, were considered to have died as a result of a drug or group of drugs. Most of the patients were seriously ill prior to the event that caused death. Six of the deaths-five from fluid overload and one from excessive potassium therapy-may have been preventable.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
148. And one about adverse drug reactions...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:39 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3560382

The Food and Drug Administration received about 37,000 adverse drug reaction reports in 1985. Seventy-one percent of the reports involved toxic reactions to usual doses of drugs and were sent by medical care professionals directly to the Food and Drug Administration or to pharmaceutical manufacturers. In terms of severity, 2% of reports involved death while 21% involved hospitalization. The highest proportions of hospitalization or death were found for reports describing cardiovascular, hematologic, or respiratory effects. Nearly half of the reported deaths were in patients more than 59 years of age. The majority of reports described an adverse drug reaction occurring within two weeks of initial exposure to the suspected drug. Adverse drug reaction reporting by physicians is crucial to ensuring that pharmaceutical products are used appropriately.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
249. The link to the Harvard organization posts the same paper.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:16 PM
Dec 2013

What is your problem? Is a Harvard journal not a good enough source to you?

http://www.ethics.harvard.edu/lab/blog/312-risky-drugs

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
80. The lack of ability of critical thinking
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:37 PM
Dec 2013

of so many posters on this site continues to amaze me.
Yep, drugs kill some people.
They help orders of magnitude more.
And I have suffered some problems from quinolones (torn Achilles Tendons).
Doesn't mean western "standard" medicine is not on the whole greatly beneficial.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
96. It's actually only marginally better than placebo. Then you factor in the side effects...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:06 PM
Dec 2013

so western allopathic medicine as practiced is much less beneficial than you assert.

Note- I didn't say it isn't at all beneficial.

Orrex

(63,216 posts)
109. Can you provide support for that dangerous assertion?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:00 PM
Dec 2013

Western medicine is "only marginally better than placebo?" So polio, small pox and measles vaccines are no better than sugar pills? Those three diseases alone account for millions upon millions of deaths, yet you dismiss these as falling within the margin of error?

Your assertion is preposterous and irresponsible, even if you try to allow yourself some wiggle room with your disclaimer at the end.

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
114. Your premise is totally ludicrous.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:23 PM
Dec 2013

Do you also disdain anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs which help many people live resonable lives when they could not also.
I suggest you skip using the internet. There was peer-reviwwed science involved there too.

Faux pas

(14,681 posts)
86. The only prescription I take is thyroid.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 12:50 PM
Dec 2013

If I could get Armour thyroid here, I wouldn't have to take any medication.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
131. As I've mentioned up and down thread.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:59 PM
Dec 2013

...an emergent health situation is paramount. That is what one must deal with. I'm not familiar with Armour Thyroid, but it makes little point to attempt to achieve good health when you're dying of some disease. That is the priority.

It mostly becomes an issue when you're dying from the medicine designed to keep you alive (as in my case with Prednisone, among others, killing me from the inside). And in point of fact, much of the reason why foods today don't suffice in supporting health and nutritional needs sufficiently, is because the food itself is the problem.

Farming methods have not only added death and misery via the pesticides and GMOs, but we've depleted the soils through constant use, never allowing them time to recover the trace minerals we need as we used to.

- The result is foods that look just beautiful to the eye, tastes mostly bland and unappealing and which are minimally nutritional.

Faux pas

(14,681 posts)
190. Food should be the main supporter of health.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 11:45 AM
Dec 2013

I live in Podunkia and all the produce here is either imported (why should we eat what we grow here? sarcasm) and never ripens (gmo?)
or if it does ripen, it tastes like whatever color it is. I'd rather eat ice cubes.

Supplements have kept me healthy for the last 15 years or so. I choose them over bad food or any prescription.

Sorry, I haven't read up and down the whole thread. I was responding to you original thread.

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
103. Even IF pharmaceuticals are the 4th leading cause of death,
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:14 PM
Dec 2013

which is an assertion not backed in any mainstream medical journal, it doesn't mean we shouldn't take them.

If you die of a stroke, caused by warfarin, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been prescribed. It very well may have killed you, but delayed you dying of an embolism 5 years earlier.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
127. In-general I'm in agreement with you.....
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:41 PM
Dec 2013

...if and when the situation is emergent. Saving the life is paramount. But as I've noted earlier, we keep treating symptoms. Why won't anyone agree what the true problem is: The stroke itself. Why not deal with that?

- Because when you boil it down, it all comes down to MONEY. That's, why. They got it and intend to keep it. Even if it kills us.

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
133. I agree to an extent
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:12 PM
Dec 2013

Dealing with issues early is the best way to prolong life -- eat right, exercise, get certain preventative care, etc.

That said, if someone comes down with diabetes, they almost always will be on a cholesterol medication and something to control blood sugar. Both of those pills have side effects, including potentially deadly or disfiguring ones.

The problem is that untreated they are more likely to die sooner than if they take the medications. Its not 100%, and its not the case in every individual case (hence we need doctors rather than robots), but in general a diabetic will live longer -- even if they exercise and eat correctly -- if they are on a cholesterol and glucose control medication.

Life carries a 100% mortality rate, and much of medicine in older people is focused on either extending life or quality of life, and occasionally the side effects are lethal, but still better (on average) the the options. For instance, on average an 80 year old woman who is bed ridden (or nearly so) and breaks her hip faces two choices: live longer in excruciating pain, or have surgery to repair the hip (not necessarily to a functional state). The surgery carries a significant risk of death or further disability. Its the patients choice, but either way carries risks and benefits.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
138. You don't come down with diabetes.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:24 PM
Dec 2013

You develop it from a poor diet and eating shit for food. Drinking sodas full of HFCS. Eating fast foods with all kinds of crud in it. And if one does develop diabetes, there are a myriad of other methods of treating it. The worst ones are pharmaceutical.

I'm sorry, but most people have no idea about anything about having to do with living a nutritionally healthy lifestyle, because our food supply has been adulterated for so long that it's impossible to remain healthy eating what's on offer at most grocery stores today.

I've taken diabetes medication (Metformin) when the Prednisone I was also taking induced a diabetic condition in me as negative effect of taking the drug. Which in-turn created even more health problems, the worst of which I'm dealing with now: Peripheral Neuropathy.

- On a side note: you should see all the patents being filed for synthetic forms of CBD, CBN, THC and other cannabinoids they're discovering as we speak -- from cannabis, of course.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
202. Diet and exercise does play a role.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:57 PM
Dec 2013

Regardless, you're ignoring so much of the picture that you should be embarrassed, and that's being kind.

highplainsdem

(49,005 posts)
108. Medical errors are the third leading cause of death:
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:35 PM
Dec 2013

From NPR:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/20/224507654/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-u-s-hospitals

It seems that every time researchers estimate how often a medical mistake contributes to a hospital patient's death, the numbers come out worse.

In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous "To Err Is Human" report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media.

In 2010, the Office of Inspector General for the Department of Health and Human Services said that bad hospital care contributed to the deaths of 180,000 patients in Medicare alone in a given year.

Now comes a study in the current issue of the Journal of Patient Safety that says the numbers may be much higher — between 210,000 and 440,000 patients each year who go to the hospital for care suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death.

That would make medical errors the third-leading cause of death in America, behind heart disease, which is the first, and cancer, which is second.


Direct link to that study:

http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2.aspx



FWIW, I prefer to rely on proper diet. nutritional supplements, and exercise as much as possible, rather than depending on doctors and Big Pharma to try to deal with symptoms (often with drugs causing bad side effects).


(Edited to fix the quote above after noticing belatedly that the text for the links in that article hadn't copied properly.)
 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
123. FWIW, I agree with you.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:20 PM
Dec 2013

An accident, a broken leg, an emergency surgery: that's when the allos can shine. But they know nothing about health. They learned most of what they now know, by stealing the accumulated knowledge going centuries back, and which came from natural and what is now termed ''alternative medicine.'' And then the good 'ol AMA set about destroying it once big money became its principle aim.

- Drug dealers. Drug dealers who work for pharmaceutical companies are primarily what doctors are now. Sad, really. They could have done so much good for the world and they turned their chance into shit. Of course, they've had a lot of help.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
167. Your study is about "patient harms associated with hospital care" - broadly defined.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:03 PM
Dec 2013

Here is an excerpt from the discussion of that paper...


Why is the present estimate of the number of lethal PAEs so much higher than the highest estimate (98,000) from the IOM? It is likely that the bar for identification of a PAE in the New York/IOM study was much higher than in the 4 modern studies and that the GTT is better able to identify adverse events than general reviews by physicians, which was the method used in the older studies cited by the IOM.19 It is also possible that the frequency of preventable and lethal patient harms has increased from 1984 to 2002–2008 because of the increased complexity of medical practice and technology, the increased incidence of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, overuse/misuse of medications, an aging population, and the movement of the medical industry toward higher productivity and expensive technology, which encourages rapid patient flow and overuse of risky, invasive, revenue-generating procedures.31–33


As far as I can tell the publication is sound, and I'm not intent on minimizing the very real problems inherent in modern medicine, but the problems being discussed are broader than those being identified by the OP. Infections of antibiotic resistant bacteria acquired in a hospital are most certainly not "pharmaceutical deaths" and neither are deaths during unnecessary surgical procedures, but both of those are being considered in 400,000 number being reported by the scientific study and the NPR article that cites it.

So in summary your source does not support the claim of the OP that pharmaceuticals are the fourth leading cause of death.

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
115. There's no such thing as side effects
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:32 PM
Dec 2013

only effects. The companies decide which ones to focus on, and define which to marginalize. Plenty of drugs are now being used for what previously was considered a side effect.

Good science becomes corrupted when money taints the research--drastic reform is needed to restore public trust and safety.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
116. I suggest the FQ/ safe drug community out there 4U re: serious discussion
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:44 PM
Dec 2013

But as stated before , they are often as splintered as DU on politics,and pharma trolls lurk everywhere , but at least they are enlightened on this subject and it's dangers......
Now as for what can help what was hurt????.....just as much woo vs poo insults as here on many of those sites

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
126. Oh, no.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:36 PM
Dec 2013
- I only tutor and convo with the educable now. Mind-open people. You know. I'm too old and too tired for anything more strenuous.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
119. Kick and Recommended. Despite the apologists for big Pharma, the link between some drugs and deaths
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:07 PM
Dec 2013

is well established, and is definitely not a conspiracy theory.

Drugs are recalled very frequently, and sometimes it is due to being connected with human deaths.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
137. If you were writing a college paper, and you cited Collective Evolution...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:19 PM
Dec 2013

professors would laugh at you. It's a woo site.

How am I supposed to take your post seriously when you cite from a website that has these "news" stories:

“Chemtrails Are Happening All Over The World” According to Former British Columbia Premier

The Recent Increase In Chemtrails

Courts Rule MMR & Thimerosal Containing Vaccines Caused Autism & Brain Damage

Aliens Have Been Working With Governments For Decades

The Shocking Truth About Alien Abductions (Powerful Video Evidence)




 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
139. Well I'm not.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:29 PM
Dec 2013

And I don't care if you do.

- I think that solves all the problems as far as I can see.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
141. How do I accomplish this?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:38 PM
Dec 2013

How does one: ''post as if it's truth?''

I posted an article I find interesting and to which I generally agree. I don't care if you don't like the article. You're free to do so. As am I. If you dislike the article so much might I suggest you let he author know your feelings instead of wasting them on me.

- I'm not here please you. Capice?

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
195. Bottom line: Why would you post a link to such a site?
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:37 PM
Dec 2013

Do you not see that doing so is unethical, at best?

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
222. No, I don't see it.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 06:54 PM
Dec 2013

The only thing I see is one more CLOSED MIND that believes it knows ALL the RIGHT answers to EVERYTHING.

I hope all that works out for you. Good-bye.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
237. Do you want to discuss something, or do you just enjoy getting people to go on wild goose chases?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:03 PM
Dec 2013

Come on. Cut the crap.

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
238. You cut the crap
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:19 PM
Dec 2013

I asked you to read my posts up above.

Hey, I am just as educated as you are, and probably even more so.

You haven't written anything that would defend anything you have been posting as far as attacking me.



So?

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
239. All I see in your posts above is the obvious.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:24 PM
Dec 2013

Following that up with a classic logical fallacy doesn't help.

If you have something you want to discuss, then show some humility for once in your life.

Don't ask people to spend their time chasing down all of your posts. That's just not cool.

Goodbye.

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
240. Hey interesting 'good bye'
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 04:38 PM
Dec 2013

Nope you are wrong. But thanks that you can't be bothered to read my posts. Hey, I think you know I am right!

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
248. And the classic Internet BS continues.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:15 PM
Dec 2013

The poster who refuses to offer anything but wild goose chases, then wants the other poster to "explain" the obvious.

You're good at pointlessness. That much is clear. Discussion is clearly not your thing, however.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
251. And you've said what exactly?
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:19 PM
Dec 2013

Do you have an ethical bone in your body? Seriously.

I asked you to explain what you wanted to discuss. You refused, and you've played classic games since then. Is this all you have to offer? Really?

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
252. Not sure what you mean about 'ethical'
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:26 PM
Dec 2013

I am not playing games - you are playing games.

Excuse me, but you have said some pretty derogatory things to me. How do you explain that?

I will talk to you tomorrow.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
253. You have done nothing but play games.
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:28 PM
Dec 2013

Denying it in the face of the evidence is definitely bizarre, and it's certainly unethical. Yes, I am frustrated by the fact that you have chosen to play games rather than discuss anything at all.

Who wouldn't? Seriously, get a clue.

Grateful for Hope

(39,320 posts)
254. Ok, HuckleB - I now understand that you don't want to discuss
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 05:31 PM
Dec 2013

it also explains why you think Sid is such a hero



Bye...

Response to HuckleB (Reply #257)

Response to Grateful for Hope (Reply #256)

indepat

(20,899 posts)
145. Big brother (the FDA) won't let the 4th leading cause of death in
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 06:13 PM
Dec 2013

America be reason to implement guidelines that could possibly adversely impact industry profitability for: the bidness of America is bidness and biddesses are in bidness to make money.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
160. As far as I can tell, they aren't.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:55 PM
Dec 2013

Here is a paper from the CDC showing statistics about death in the US in 2011, by age group, and here is how they break down:

0-24 years

Accidents, 38%; Homicide, 13%; Suicide, 13%; Cancer, 7%; Heart Disease, 3%; All other causes, 26%

25 - 44 years

Accidents, 26%; Cancer, 13%; Heart Disease, 12%; Suicide, 11%; Homicide, 6%; All other causes, 32%

45 - 64 years

Cancer, 32%; Heart Disease, 21%; Accidents, 7%; Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease, 4%; Chronic Liver Disease And Cirrhosis 4%, All others 32%

65+

Heart Disease, 26%; Cancer, 22%; Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease, 7%; Stroke, 6%; Alzheimer's, 5%; All Others, 34%

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db115.htm

Here is the top 10 causes of death world wide from WHO : http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs310/en/

Curiously "death by pharmaceuticals being used as directed" is not on that list either.

You also don't find that entry in any of the COD stats that are broken down by income:

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs310/en/index1.html

And finally the article you linked doesn't source any research to support that claim, the author merely asserts it without any backup. If you have a source for that claim or some actual statistics feel free to share.

Big Blue Marble

(5,093 posts)
169. When you can not handle the message, attack the messenger.
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:15 PM
Dec 2013

it is so easy for your critics to attack links. So much easier than facing the truth that modern
medicine has a dark side. I used this link in a thread on Monday. It reporting the same results.

http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100%2C000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs%2C_while_pharma_companies_get_rich

It is from Alternet; a side that is often cited on DU for presenting alternative perspectives from
corporate media. It will not satisfy the critics because nothing will. They just want to shout you
down and demean you. If they are anything, they are predictable.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
178. What's easy is bashing something out of context.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 02:42 AM
Dec 2013

That's what this OP does. It's ugly. It's dangerous. It's wrong.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
196. No, people attack scams as woo!
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:38 PM
Dec 2013

Because that's what they are... and the website in the OP is a woo site.

Just clarifying...

polichick

(37,152 posts)
197. Bullshit - they also call herbal remedies "woo" even when those remedies...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:42 PM
Dec 2013

have been used successfully for hundreds of years.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
198. Now you're offering two fallacies in one post to support whatever it is you're trying to support?
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:43 PM
Dec 2013

The fallacy of the ancients and the naturalistic fallacy are both bogus and the use of them amounts to nothing more than bad propaganda, which is unethical, at best.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
201. Awwwwww. So you really do like promoting woo!
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 03:55 PM
Dec 2013

Well, that's your choice, but don't be offended when people who give a crap about others call you out on your BS.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
203. imo brainwashed fools like you are a hoot!
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:03 PM
Dec 2013

Do a little homework and you'll find that the active ingredients in big pharma's products are derived from natural substances - and changed just enough to get a patent, which allows the companies to make tons of cash from brainwashed fools.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
204. Uh, duh.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:11 PM
Dec 2013

But, what you choose to ignore is that researchers have selected specific parts of those natural substances, etc... Clearly, you have a very minimal understanding of this. Thus, I would recommend that you spend a few thousand hours researching this, and challenging yourself every step of the way. That's what I've done.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
206. You're brainwashed. Try the natural substance the way it's been used...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:18 PM
Dec 2013

in other cultures for hundreds of years - and save yourself a buttload of money.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
207. I'm not the one who is brainwashed.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:20 PM
Dec 2013

Your repeated choice to engage in discussion is not unexpected, but it is bizarre. You clearly don't understand science in any way, shape or form. You have bought into a philosophy. You stick to the logical fallacies no matter what.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Seriously, if you have an actual curious bone in your body, start to question your beliefs. You will be surprised if you do.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
210. Yeah, because Mother Nature knows nothing about science. LOL
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:27 PM
Dec 2013

Best of luck - thanks again for the laughs.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
213. So you offer up another useless cliche and logical fallacy.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:37 PM
Dec 2013

Your laughter is rather bizarre, since it's based in logical fallacies and misinformation.

It's also based in a lack of basic ethics.

Do you have any shame?

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
205. Anyone ever taken Lunesta?
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:17 PM
Dec 2013

The side effects mentioned in the commercial for this completely legal sleep aid blow me away. There's this happy little magic butterfly fluttering around, and then this soothing female voice quietly mentions users will want to keep an eye out for homicidal or suicidal thoughts, as well as "eating, driving or gambling while asleep ..." And there's more, including hallucinations, apparently.

No big. Just might find yourself on the road to Vegas, eating a burger, not awake in any way.

Then there's some mention about how no one really knows how it works, but it's "thought to affect ..." or some such.

For a sleeping pill. It sounds like the Happy Fun Ball sketch from SNL. Do not TAUNT Lunesta, which is filled with a glowing substance that fell to Earth, presumably from space ..."

Many pharmaceuticals clearly are life-saving and worthy. I just had occasion to take quite a few, had no severe side-effects, and I'm very glad they exist. I heard on NPR today that there may be a new drug that can cure Hep-C with few side effects -- basically a pill -- which will be an incredible thing if it bears out.

But these prescription drugs -- just how many bizarre side effects, for what purported cure should be okay?

There's another ad on TV for something to help with a skin rash that promises something like a 20% improvement, but comes with a chance of lethality. Heart attack or brain cancer or something. Again delivered in the most soothing tones of course. "Your legs will probably clear up somewhat. Also, you may die. Call your doctor today!"

Something's out of whack.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
208. This exposes the problems of allowing the "free market" into health care, more than anything.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:23 PM
Dec 2013

The likelihood of those events occurring is mind boggling low, but "Big Pharma" is focused on protecting its arse. Thus, a medicine that is usually quite helpful, though it should be used far more conservatively than it is, gets a reputation that doesn't match reality.

Bottom line: "Big Pharma" is a BIG PROBLEM, but it's not because of the medicines themselves, most of the time.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
211. I don't doubt "side effects are rare," but even a low incidence of
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:33 PM
Dec 2013

severe or really bizarre side effects in a drug actually brought to market give me pause. How does a Lunesta patient guard against the low probability they will become suicidal or homicidal, or "drive, eat or gamble while asleep?" I mean, I expect lots of drugs to warn you might get a headache, or an upset stomach. That's the "ass covering" I think of, anyway.

But murderous thoughts, halluncination and sleep gambling just seem like maybe they should be in a category we call, "You can't sell that to people." I don't know.

And given we know there's been no shortage of truly dangerous drugs getting to market, I'm becoming convinced our system for bringing them there is broken.

I agree it's big profits driving this. And the FDA seems co-opted.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
212. Well...
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:36 PM
Dec 2013

If we waited for the perfect treatment, we'd have a much shorter life expectancy. One has to weigh the risks of any treatment, and treatments that can actually help, can sometimes have side effects for some individuals. It's not something anyone wants. But failing to use treatments that help a majority of people because of side effects in a few seems wrong to me.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
214. I agree it's a balance. Need to sleep vs. risk of suicide / homicide /
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:45 PM
Dec 2013

and Sleep Gambling strikes me as a whole lot to throw on the table for a sleep disorder. How many sleeping, gambling murders would it take to make it just not worth the risk? Would one in 10,000 be acceptable?

Moreover (and I wish I a transcript of the ad in front of me) the part about "We don't really know how it works" suggests an awful lot of rolling the dice with people's brains to induce a condition a lot of drugs can help with. Doctors are supposed to be scientists. But this suggests to me a lot of guesswork for a drug that's altering brain chemistry.

I do admit when I mentioned this before, a couple of people piped up and said it helped them (and presumably no sleep driving gamble murders occurred).

How about a Benedryl? Or the right strain of marijuana?

I agree you don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I question whether a non-profit-driven drug industry would be encouraging these risk / reward ratios.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
215. Most of the research does address such issues.
Thu Dec 5, 2013, 04:48 PM
Dec 2013

Insomnia tends to feed things like depression, anxiety, alcoholism etc... all of which are precursors to suicide, etc... Thus, it's not an easy balance, but there is far more check and balance with "Big Pharma" than with other "options." I'm not saying that science doesn't get it wrong sometimes. It certainly does, but it is science that corrects the wrong science. And that is something that is lost on many among us.

Cheers!

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
261. Gave me nightmares and hallucinations.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:25 PM
Dec 2013

And I'm already in the hospital recovering from major surgery at the time.

These people who make this shit and dispense it and know what it does, are sick.

- Really sick.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
233. "Baking Soda is Proving to be an Effective Treatment For Cancer"...
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 03:13 PM
Dec 2013

More quality "science" from Collective Evolution.

Sid

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
260. The Polio Vaccine Myth: “The Vaccine Stopped Polio”
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:21 PM
Dec 2013

More greatness from Collective Evolution.


Kicking for exposure, in light of this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024149395

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