"What You Lose When You Sign That Donor Card"

[RKP5637]

Are you really dead? Do you feel pain?

"What You Lose When You Sign That Donor Card"

"Giving away your organs sounds noble, but have doctors blurred the line between life and death?"

See >>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204603004577269910906351598.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

The last time I renewed my driver's license, the clerk at the DMV asked if she should check me off as an organ donor. I said no. She looked at me and asked again. I said, "No. Just check the box that says, 'I am a heartless, selfish bastard.'"

Becoming an organ donor seems like a win-win situation. Some 3.3 people on the transplant waiting list will have their lives extended by your gift (3.3 is the average yield of solid organs per donor). You're a hero, and at no real cost, apparently.

The exam for brain death is simple. A doctor splashes ice water in your ears (to look for shivering in the eyes), pokes your eyes with a cotton swab and checks for any gag reflex, among other rudimentary tests. It takes less time than a standard eye exam. Finally, in what's called the apnea test, the ventilator is disconnected to see if you can breathe unassisted. If not, you are brain dead. (Some or all of the above tests are repeated hours later for confirmation.)

Here's the weird part. If you fail the apnea test, your respirator is reconnected. You will begin to breathe again, your heart pumping blood, keeping the organs fresh. Doctors like to say that, at this point, the "person" has departed the body. You will now be called a BHC, or beating-heart cadaver.

But BHCs—who don't receive anesthetics during an organ harvest operation—react to the scalpel like inadequately anesthetized live patients, exhibiting high blood pressure and sometimes soaring heart rates. Doctors say these are simply reflexes.

What if there is sound evidence that you are alive after being declared brain dead? In a 1999 article in the peer-reviewed journal Anesthesiology, Gail A. Van Norman, a professor of anesthesiology at the University of Washington, reported a case in which a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma began breathing spontaneously after being declared brain dead. The physicians said that, because there was no chance of recovery, he could still be considered dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move, and then react to the scalpel with hypertension.

More, see >>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204603004577269910906351598.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Motown_Johnny]

1. no brain no pain

I'm a donor and I'm not concerned

[ellisonz]

31. +1

If I'm that busted up, don't wake me up.

[customerserviceguy]

47. Bingo

Just because one in a million people might recover and live as a vegetable doesn't mean I'm not gone. Hell, spare me the trauma of being that one tortured individual!

[mzteris]

2. 1999 article n/t

[RKP5637]

3. Interesting. On my page it says March 9, 2012, 6:20 p.m. ET? Oh, I see, yep, that one section in

the article was 1999.

[MuseRider]

4. Having been involved in this as a CCRN

I can tell you that there is way more to determining if a patient is brain dead than that. Now, this was years ago but I can't imagine they have gone to such rudimentary ways of determining brain death.

Patients who are considered brain dead by brain studies are not just simply shoved into surgery. As to the report, well I don't know. I know in the hospital where I was working everyone, including the family spent a lot of time determining if the time was right and nothing moved forward until all parties, including all the doctors involved agreed.

I am comfortable being a donor. As far as I am concerned having a dead brain and simply breathing for years is not life, for ME. Others may not agree with that.

We did have a patient of mine wake up after being put on the list for harvest. It can happen so that is something to think about as well. If I was younger I might think differently but at this point I think recovery from something like that would be much less likely.

[Mojorabbit]

46. Same here

It was certainly more sophisticated than "splashing water in the ears" as this article insinuates and I have never seen this done without a thorough vetting on every level possible.

[ohheckyeah]

5. Can you stipulate

who can and cannot have your organs?

[RKP5637]

7. That's a good question ... I don't know the answer, maybe someone else does. Interesting question.

[ohheckyeah]

8. I hope so....

I would at least want my family to have some say so.

[Cirque du So-What]

11. Why?

Wouldn't your grieving family have lots more on their plate than concern over who may or may not obtain your donated organs? Is anyone in your family qualified to make those decisions anyway? What if one of them donates an organ to someone who is least likely to benefit from it?

Personally, I'd prefer that those decisions be left to professionals. Can you not see the downside to allowing family members discretion over who obtains donated organs? I'm sure that a good many would exercise their personal prejudices - whether it's gender, race, religion, ethnicity, economic status or even whether they're a resident of a town that's a sports-related rival...not to say anyone in your family would do such a thing, mind you.

[ohheckyeah]

12. Why?

Because I want my organs to go to someone that isn't getting it because he/she have money. I want them to go to someone who otherwise may not have a chance of getting them because they are deemed unqualified because of age or some other reason. Like the gay person who has AIDS and might be written off or the 65 year old just by virtue of being 65. My husband would be the final authority, and if not him then my very liberal nephew will be designated to make the determination.

That's why.

[Cirque du So-What]

15. Got any citations of the moneyed class being given preference?

Myth: Rich and famous people go to the top of the list when they need a donor organ.

Fact: The rich and famous aren't given priority when it comes to allocating organs. It may seem that way because of the amount of publicity generated when celebrities receive a transplant, but they are treated no differently from anyone else. In fact, the United Network for Organ Sharing (UNOS), the organization responsible for maintaining the national organ transplant network, subjects all celebrity transplants to an internal audit to make sure the organ allocation was appropriate.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/organ-donation/FL00077

Take up your argument with the Mayo Clinic - not me. Decisions like these are left in the hands of healthcare professionals for good reason. Not everyone has a 'very liberal nephew' on hand to make a fair choice. Can you NOT see the prejudices that would be exercised if such decisions were allowed to be made by a random yahoo?

You want to find excuses to avoid organ donation, that's your prerogative...but I'm not going to allow false assertions to go unchallenged.

[ohheckyeah]

17. You know what...

it's really none of your business why which is what I should have answered in the first place.

It's MY decision whether or not to donate my organs and who makes the final decision if I can't. I also mentioned those deemed not suitable for organ donation which you ignored. I don't need to take up my argument with the Mayo Clinic as they get no say in my decision whether to donate or not.

I'm not talking about everyone and their prejudices, I'm talking about me and my choices and my family.

Good god, one can't even ask a question on this board without someone getting all bent out of shape.

[CherokeeWarrior]

19. as a transplant recip

it is your decision but i can tell you as a person who got a liver transplant there are people who dont have a libreal nephew who will decide or what ever .. i happen to be straight but i have a friend i met after transplant who is not and guess what he got a transplant and he has hep c .. two people from different sides and if someone had a liberal nephew making the decision guess what i wouldnt have gotten it cause i guess i would not be liberal enough ..

people get them because of how sick they are , not color creed or anything else .. you can go from bottom of list to top based on how sick you are , i went from a 25 on the meld score to a 35 in a month .. then from a 35 to a 38 in two days and i was told at 40 with a liver you have about 2 days to live ..

if you feel the way you do dont donate your organs .. but dont make excuses because of someones political bent or sexual bent or whatever .. everyone deserves a chance at life..

thats why the motto is Give Life...

[ohheckyeah]

23. What do other people having

or not having a liberal nephew have to do with MY family and decision? I'm not making excuses....I was asking a question and was asked why. I stated why. I don't need to make excuses or apologize for anything.

No wonder people posting on this board has declined.

[CherokeeWarrior]

26. my op is this

because in my humble opinion based on what you said about you wanting it to go to a 65 year old because they cant get them or someone with aids ect without knowing the facts and making your nephew make the decision on some magical who is liberal and who is not is basically putting people to death over politics ... and i would think as a liberal who is usually against war and against the death penalty would not put something as silly as a magical scale of liberalness over someones life ..

If we believe life is so important .. then either it is or its not .. it is not based on who is liberal and who is conservative.
but i guess that is just my opinion after having a transplant and seeing all types of people wake up the next day and take that first walk after getting a new life..

[ohheckyeah]

28. I wasn't talking about

my organs only going to liberals. Fuck - I was talking about my nephew not having prejudices, you know against black people, gays, etc since that comment was thrown into the mix by another poster.

Maybe people shouldn't read shit into what is said and make assumptions.

[CherokeeWarrior]

30. more info

unos list has name , meld score , hospital location , organ needed and blood type that is it .. its keep in a computer based on meld score and time on list .. when someone dies in the area and is a organ donor and the family has agreed they call the unos cordinator who looks at the computer list adds a sort by area because they usually can only travel so far and then calls the top three people on the list hospital for them to call them ...

the first person who is called may not be at home , may have a cold or flu or temp and is excluded cause of the dangers ect ..
once the transplant hospital reports back that they have contacted and person on the way the organ harvest team is sent from the hospital to the hospital of the donor ..

at the same time the other organs are being given to needy folks the same way .. once all the organ harvest teams are at the hospital then the organs are taken respectfully. Notice one team may get a few organs since most hospitals that do transplants are in certain areas.. like georgia only has 2 hospitals that do transplants and they are about 15 miles apart .. so the possiblity of someone in the south getting a organ and being at the same hospital is high..

the only one who knows more than whats on the list is the transplant team at the hospital.. they know alot about you because it is your medical history ..

[Cirque du So-What]

21. Who's bent out of shape?

And you're right about it being your own business...to which I've already agreed.

If it were possible for family members to pick & choose the recipients of donated organs, you'd have to do it for everyone - not just those with a 'very liberal nephew,' yunno. Case in point:

Reply 13 - Posted by: bnrmusa, 3/11/2012 8:51:10 AM (No. 8417843)

I'll sign the card, if I can stipulate that, my donated organs only go to a conservative.

http://www.lucianne.com/thread/?artnum=669813

Wouldn't it be more prudent to leaving decisions like this up to professionals who do this every day - professionals who know better than you or any family member who stands the most to gain from the donated organs?

Some people have a need to politicize everything
Please explain how - in tone - your stance differs from that of the teabagger posting at Lucianne.com.

Also also also...

How would family members gain access to lists of people needing transplants without violating all sorts of confidentiality covenants between doctor and patient? Once again, you can do what you want, but you'll never be an organ donor if you wait around for the day when family members can pick & choose the recipients.

[ohheckyeah]

27. It's not about politics -

Jesus Christ, those were just examples.

Nice way to convince people to donate organs - attack them, roll your eyes and then liken them to teabaggers.

And sure, professionals are never swayed by something other than the greatest good to mankind.

[Cirque du So-What]

32. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything

Also, YOU were the one who broached the subject of donating organs to someone who may be 'deemed unqualified because of age or some other reason.' People are deemed unqualified for *medical* reasons - good reasons. The layperson has no frame of reference for making a decision that could turn out to be a waste of time, talent, and perfectly good organs for transplant. Your nephew could be qualified to make such a decision, but to insist that he would make a more equitable choice than those with the training & experience to make those decisions on a daily basis is folly IMO. Those in such positions don't get there by playing favorites, so it's just another red herring to cite something for which you have no concrete example.

In addition, I was NOT likening you to a teabagger, who made no stipulations aside from the requirement that the organs go to a conservative. I realize that your heart is in the right place (no pun intended, given the subject of this discussion thread), but you cannot demand such rights for yourself without opening the floodgates to all who would think they know better than medical professionals how to best utilize the gift of organ donation.

[ohheckyeah]

33. I didn't demand

a damn thing. I asked a question and said "I hope so".....not I DEMAND they make the rules to suit me.

And I didn't say anything about my organs going only to someone of a particular political bent. I was talking about my nephew not having prejudices, which I believe is something YOU brought up.

Yes, I made example stipulations - try reading what I actually wrote instead of what you assumed.

And of course you are trying to convince people of something - the professionals know best and we shouldn't presume to question them.

[Cirque du So-What]

34. Don't get all bent out of shape or nothin'

And, yes, I AM making the argument that medical professionals are in a better position to make decisions as how a precious resource like donated organs are allocated than the average citizen. It stands to reason that these decisions take into account the recipients' chances of actually benefiting from the transplanted organs instead of merely allowing people to feel better about themselves and allowing an organ donation to become a wasted, quixotic gesture. You'll never see the day when people's personal feelings trump medical probability of success - for good reason. It would be highly unethical to transplant an organ into a person whose chance of survival would not be changed, and it would be a tremendous drain upon medical resources.

Again, if you want an excuse not to donate your organs, one won't be hard to find...but your 'hope' is as vapour.

[ohheckyeah]

38. I don't need an excuse

for anything. My body, my choice. I wasn't looking for a way to feel better about myself as I don't feel bad about myself as is, thank you very much. I was looking for information and got snark.

People have legitimates reasons for not blindly believing medical professionals always know best or have the best intentions. Last time I thought that they almost killed me and I was left to my own devices to save myself, which I did with the help of my husband and other people who love me.

I'm done with this discussion - you can make your very thinly veiled insulting remarks to someone else.

[Cirque du So-What]

40. You were looking for validation of your concept

however faulty it may be. Sorry it didn't work out for ya.

[ohheckyeah]

42. No I wasn't....

and no you aren't. You're condescending and snarky and obviously enjoy being so.

Bye - have a nice life.

[Cirque du So-What]

43. Whatever

Don't address the points I made (when I wasn't being condescending and snarky, that is) if that floats yer boat. No skin off my nose...unless I find myself in the position of needing a skin transplant and have to rely on the discretion of arbitrary people as to my worthiness, that is...but that ain't gonna happen.

[CherokeeWarrior]

10. Here is some info

i have received a liver transplant and have done a tone of research..


signing that donor box does not mean you will be a donor , the family does have the last say in if your organs will be transplanted.. well your wife or kids depending on who is alive ect..

But you can not say well this person can get them and this person cant .. you are not told who is getting them and the recip is not told who the organ came from..

After a transplant one can write the family or recip but there are rules on what you can say .. and you have to send them to a group which will then look up via your name and hospital and organ and then pass the letter on .. there are rules on what you can say in them .. ie no religion and such.. if the other family writes back great but some dont .. I have written about 5 letters over the 2 years since and never have received a response back ..

Hope this gives some insight

[ohheckyeah]

13. Thank you.

I appreciate the information.

[Demonaut]

6. I'll stay a donor

[RebelOne]

16. Me too. Plus, my drivers license is $10 cheaper. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

9. No offense but this article smelled a bit so I looked up a more detailed list of what they do:

These are the guidelines for New York state (2005) to determine brain death. The article oversimplifies the tests.

PB

[Cirque du So-What]

18. It goes with the territory

when citing a 'Dracula story' from the specious WSJ, whose Murdoch-owned minions saw fit to recycle this story.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

20. I guess there are some Draculas out there

once you are in this situation it is difficult to protest. I expect some doctors just harvest anyhow.

[CherokeeWarrior]

22. Myths

Emergency medical staff has nothing to do with organ and tissue recovery. They do not work for transplant centers and have one goal: to save the lives of the patients in their emergency rooms. Organ transplant specialists are only contacted after all efforts to save a patient have been exhausted and the patient has died.

Go to lifelink.org read the organ donation myths..

"If I'm in an accident and the hospital knows I want to be a donor, the doctors won't try to save my life!"

Fact If you are sick or injured and admitted to the hospital, the number one priority is to save your life. The medical team treating you is separate from the transplant team. The team coordinating the donation is not notified until all lifesaving efforts have failed and death has been determined. The transplant team would not be notified until your family has consented to donation.

Myth #6
"If I donate, I would worry that the recipient and/or the recipient's family would discover my identity and cause more grief for my family."

Fact Information about the donor is released by the team that coordinates the donation to the recipients only if the family that donated requests it be provided. Refer to Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) within this website for an explanation of how this is handled.

Myth #9
"I heard that they take everything, even if I only want to donate my eyes."

Fact You may specify which organs you want donated. Your wishes will be followed.

the above is from transweb.org ..

[Cirque du So-What]

24. Sorry, but I pay no mind to 'suspicions'

preferring instead to rely upon documented facts.

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. I saw this coming a mile away.

[TheWraith]

25. Ridiculous.

Realistically, what are the odds of someone recovering from a state like that, hmm? Don't give me that crap that because it happened once, therefore it's plausible every time. It's not. Statistically, someone who is brain-dead is less likely to come back from that than you are to be struck by lightning multiple times. This is just paranoid crap of the highest order, spreading FUD about organ donation.

[RKP5637]

36. Part of the article reminds me about the guillotine ... how long does the brain have sensations

after one having been guillotined.

[TheWraith]

52. Anecdotal evidence suggests conscious response up to 60 seconds or so after decapitation. nt

[ChazII]

29. People with neurofibromatosis

don't have this moral dilemma. We can't donate our organs since NF is a genetic disorder/disease.

Thanks, RKP5637 for bringing this issue up for discussion.

[RKP5637]

35. Yep, I saw the article being passed around and wondered what DU had to say about it ... n/t

[ohheckyeah]

39. My niece just went through

very serious surgeries and 10 days of traction due to neurofibromatosis. I'm sorry you have to deal with the disease....it's not fun.

[BlueIris]

37. I refuse to sign mine.

Anyone who wants to flame me can save it. There are lots of valid reasons not to sign, corruption in the medical system is only one of them.

[ohheckyeah]

41. What?

Medical professionals don't always know best and do the right thing?

Like you, I have reason (from personal experience) to have reservations about medical professionals.

[Raine]

44. Same here and for the same reason nt

[HopeHoops]

45. I'm old enough that I'm not worried about that. I've lived a good life. Others deserve the same.

Probably the only organs they would want are my heart and eyes. The rest have been somewhat abused.

[Honeycombe8]

48. I think they take only young hearts. So I'm out for that.

I'm over 50, so I can't imagine they'd want anything of mine. Parts do wear out, even if cared for. They have a life expectancy, I think.

So I don't think I have to worry about this issue.

[HopeHoops]

51. Well, if they can use anything for anybody, I'm willing to let them. If not, there's the trash can.

On Edit: I've got a shitload of old computers in the basement just for that reason - parts is parts, and you can't get them easily for the older machines anymore.

[Honeycombe8]

53. LOL! nt

[DefenseLawyer]

49. Bill Frist looked at the video

and predicted a full recovery.

[lonestarnot]

50. Welp then we have an entire political pug party from which to pluck organs. All are BHCs.