Chomsky on the Arab Spring & "spreading democracy" - & why I'm at DU

[BelgianMadCow]

Q: Initial hopes for a linear trajectory towards empowerment and democracy have long disappeared.
Was the euphoria misplaced? Where and when did things go wrong?

A: There never should have been hopes for a linear trajectory. The Arab Spring was a development of historic importance, threatening many powerful interests. Power does not say “thank you for dismantling us,” then walking quietly away.

Q: One of several regional fault lines seems to be the clash between secular and religious forces. Do you see a way this dichotomy can be dealt with constructively? What role should Western governments play?

A: Neither history, nor logic, nor policy analysis, nor any other source apart from propaganda gives us any reason to expect power systems to play a constructive role, unless it happens to be in their interest. That’s true of western systems, as a special case. In the MENA region, the major powers – Britain, then the US – have fairly consistently supported radical Islam as a counter to secular nationalism. The favorite has been Saudi Arabia, the most extreme radical Islamist state, and a missionary state, spreading its Wahabbist - Salafist doctrines throughout the region. There are excellent and careful scholarly studies of US “democracy promotion” by their most prominent advocates, who concede, reluctantly, that the government supports democracy if and only if it conforms to economic and strategic interests – just as any rational person would expect.

From an interview done by the german IPG-journal, full text here. Of course, there is a direct link from Tahrir square via the indignados to Occupy, which brings the question: does the US government support democracy at home?

I personally have strong doubts about that. Given the power of corporations to influence lawmakers, the executive and judiciary branches, as well as over the public via concentrated mass media, and given the apparent surveillance state, I am unsure. What Sheldon Wolin proposes, inverted totalitarianism, looks close to the truth to me. Here's a piece about Wolin by Bill Moyers:

I know it's very silly/weird/unnecessary/futile (take your pick) probably, but trying to keep at least the pocket of sanity that I found DU to be at the depth of the Bush* years aware of the path (I think) you're on, is the only reason I post on DU. You may now tell me to better spend my time, as a foreigner.

[KoKo]

1. Thanks for this post! Sheldon Wolin is often quoted by Chris Hedges

so nice to see you post that link in there with Chomsky.

[Comrade Grumpy]

2. Thank you. Chomsky is always refreshing.

[pampango]

3. "The Arab Spring was a development of historic importance, threatening many powerful interests.

Power does not say “thank you for dismantling us,” then walking quietly away."

Nice find, BelgianMadCow.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

4. Great post; good video. Thanks for posting, BMC. nt

[rhett o rick]

5. Thank you for posting this. nm

[RainDog]

6. Dag, BelgianMadCow

My son and I were talking about Occupy, along with many other things, yesterday. He thought it was dead and I said there are often phrases for movements - and traditionally social change movements go through many, many years before they reach people who then, because of their numbers and objections, change policies - or even the way other people perceive the world.

He had stopped paying attention to the movement - or it hadn't gotten much press recently, so I sent him a link from The Guardian about the rolling jubilee - and a link to the website for that.

I don't know when we will reach the tipping point - but the reality that wall streeters, etc. are saying they're willing to accept regulations - but won't self-regulate because that would put them at a disadvantage, economically - that's speaking to politicians and the public.

I see lots of things changing - even tho it seems like it's too slow - and maybe, sometimes it is - but there'a still a lot of resistance from the 1%, and they act out their resistance by buying entire political parties.

[BelgianMadCow]

8. Dank je, RainDog and earlier posters

The couple of people that carried the torch in our local Occupy group after I got ill once told me Occupy was dead.

But the same group of people was at the March against Monsanto. The same people organised a climate action camp. The same people have started a give-away shop.

Occupy can't die for me, because it's in my heart. For an engineer who used to be 90 % about numbers and the rest mainly gut, that's a sea change.

Thanks for your encouragement. Like Chris Hedges says, movements often take one step back and then two forward. I don't know what form these movements will take. I do know that I will stand up like I did that day and never stop. Best thing I ever did bar none. And ever since I took that route, I meet people who empower me and say things like 'I used to work in a big corp, but I started to feel schizophrenic about it, couldn't rhyme what I did with who I AM".

Waking up is irreversible. I know to many on here that's old news - they've been awake and kicking ass for decades. Well, the spirit of 68 ain't dead. If only we dream & unite.

[RainDog]

9. Vlaamse of Franse spreker?

It's good to see someone who keeps the flame alive.

[BelgianMadCow]

10. Vlaams, but like most en français ca me va également

oder auf deutsch The advantage of living in a country that's been ruled by most countries in Europe at some point

I can't do anything but keep it alive. It sounds weird, but I really feel the moral imperative Hedges speaks of. I have a terrible disagreement about it with my dad - who just says, use your skills & diploma within the system in order to secure wealth for your family. I can't help but think that we need to seriously extend the concept of family...

How did you come to keeping the flame fanned with your son? And how do you even know Belgium is "divided"?

[upi402]

7. Corporatocracy does NOT support democracy

Neither here nor there. When Chomsky speaks... all humans, from wherever, should share the wealth of knowledge.
Thank you BelgianMadCow!

Power does not say “thank you for dismantling us,” then walking quietly away."
-priceless

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Excellent. K&R