General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSen Gary Hart: 'American Journalism Never Followed Up On (JFK) Story"
<snip>
"You don't have to be a genius to believe that they knew something about the coincidence of events -- Cuba, Mafia, CIA and Kennedy -- that somebody didn't want that out in the public 12 years later," Hart said.
At a time when his Church committee was uncovering plots against the Cuban president and the CIA's use of the Mafia in those plots, Hart was privy to other peculiarities as well.
According to Hart, the Warren Commission -- the presidential commission charged with investigating Kennedy's assassination that concluded Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone -- remained unaware of the connections between Cuba, the CIA, the Mafia and Kennedy. Only then-CIA director Allen Dulles, who was on the commission, knew, according to Hart, but Dulles said nothing to the other members.
Hart also heard from William Robert Plumlee -- a former CIA contract pilot who gave classified testimony to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, then chaired by John Kerry, in the '90s -- about how he believed Kennedy was really killed. Plumlee told Hart that he'd flown a plane to Texas days before the president's assassination and had later come to believe that several people on board were connected to the murder. A report by TV producer Robert Vernon claimed that Plumlee testified that the flight -- with Roselli on board -- was an attempt to thwart the Kennedy assassination.
Hart tried to uncover the truth about the Kennedy assassination and the "big unanswered questions." He said he worked with fellow Church committee member and former Sen. Richard Schweiker (R-Penn.), but ultimately ran out of resources and leads. During an ill-fated presidential bid in the 1980s, Hart vowed he'd reopen the Kennedy investigation if elected. In retrospect, he said it "was probably a stupid thing to do," citing death threats he received.
<snip>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/20/jfk-assassination-gary-hart_n_4302598.html
grasswire
(50,130 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)associated in any way with Kennedy's assassination. But it should be investigated. Even now, maybe some new facts could be found.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)The science of the assassination leaves no doubt that it was Oswald with 3 shots..
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365118537/
Ruby was a nut who wanted to be a hero. He was known as a nut and a hot head.. The mafia is not that stupid..
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)busterbrown
(8,515 posts)The scientific evidence is overwhelming..
Oswald was out of his mind, a small state of mind who yearned to be a legend.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)busterbrown
(8,515 posts)I guess it makes life a little more interesting.
Response to busterbrown (Reply #8)
Name removed Message auto-removed
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Wow! Thats logical...
Response to busterbrown (Reply #18)
Name removed Message auto-removed
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)I simply bash Dems? My hatred for the right wing is obvious around here.
My problem with conspiracy theories is that our country is full of them in todays world and most of them are centered
around the evil govt.. The Kennedy Conspiracy theories really mark the beginning of all the right wing conspiracies which we have had to endure for the past 50 years..Right up to the Obama isnt an American theory! Fucked up dumb shit..
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Believe what you want, but the moon landing happened.
Believe what you want, but Elvis is dead.
Believe what you want, but bigfoot doesn't exist.
Believe what you want, but there was no conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)In fact the only scientific consensus has been by HSCA and the they concluded after listening to witnesses, reviewing the evidence including scientific studies that there was a conspiracy to assassination President John F. Kennedy.
Do your homework!
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Science doesn't stop at initial scientific studies since they are frequently incorrect.
New information shows that the results from the alleged dictabelt recording of the assassination were bogus.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)The question is how good is the science?
tiny elvis
(979 posts)for example, even if oswald was a nut,
someone could have bet him he could not shoot the president
and that person's motive need not be personal and mysterious
tell me more about the science of yearning
the effect of evidence on your psyche has no value to me
the necessity of the lone nut is the basis of the physical theory
not vice versa
reddread
(6,896 posts)IF he wanted to be a legend, his lasting words would NOT be
"I'm just a patsy"
how long have you been a nut?
Selling the big lie on DU?
Thats a sad line of work.
There are too many famous examples of CIA tied individuals making the claims
that back up Oswald's famous words.
Amoral people with no relationship to justice seem to be crawling around here
calling other people names for not going along with the Big Lie.
Quite amusing.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Oswald would have loved to get away with it.. That way he could enjoy is notoriety...
This guy was a sick fuck operating on his own.. He was known as a hot head, compulsive and unstable.
Why would the Mafia or CIA pick someone like him to be their man.
Wouldnt you feel that he could turn on a dime.?
reddread
(6,896 posts)"Oswald would have loved to get away with it.. That way he could enjoy is notoriety... "
excellent example of the sort of "reasoning" necessary...
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)Everybody lies, most especially to themselves.
One of the few concepts to sink into my brain in school,
courtesy of Bob Trivers himself, was Deceit and Self-Deception.
That should be mandatory discussion in public education before
high school, maybe we could raise a crop of honest and mindful citizens.
What a typical attempt you make here.
dumb and dumber America.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)If his motive was to be a hero, that might be his reaction if he thinks he is just the fall guy.
I wish that there would have been a very open, complete investigation of everything - what the Warren committee was suppose to be. It could be that a lot of people - even ones as connected as former Senator Gary Hart have a very hard time that a President they loved was killed by essentially a nobody.
Not to mention here is at least one error. Kerry did not chair the SFRC until 2009 - in the 1990s, he was still far from the most senior. (In fact even in 2005, he was 4th in line.) This is not an error that Hart himself would have made. (Kerry did chair a committee on terrorism, drug running and gun running - that he used to investigate the illegal actions in support of the Contras and the illegal actions of BCCI.)
MindMover
(5,016 posts)to blow the rear part of his head out ...
And Ruby was lying about a conspiracy,
and you are definitely correct about the mafia not being stupid,
http://www.myplainview.com/canyon/news/article_f6555d0a-48c4-11e3-bbd1-001a4bcf887a.html
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)This is a senator who was on the Church Committee and the Foreign Relations committee, had inside access, plus a respected big-time Democrat, and most definitely a pro-system guy who favors the usual imperialist foreign policy consensus. He's telling you what he thought back during the Church Committee! And my joke was going to be, how do the WC religionists react, no matter who is speaking? Say he's a nut, of course! But in this case, I didn't think anyone would actually say something so obviously self-serving to the WC religion, and so dumb!
Like Russell, the member of the WC itself who dissented and was deceived into consensus, this isn't shut down by name-calling.
But name-call away, you're only helping to wise people up.
former9thward
(32,024 posts)He was involved with Mafia killings as far back as Chicago in the 30s. He was neither a nut or "hot head."
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Most of you had to have not been around at the time to post such silly beliefs.
former9thward
(32,024 posts)Oswald was going to be transferred to a much more secure facility than a police station. There would be little chance to silence him then.
I wrote a book on Chicago labor history. I did a lot of research on the Mafia encroachment into Chicago labor unions. If you go to the front page of the Chicago Tribune, December 9, 1939 you will find .... a picture of Jack Ruby -- wanted for murder of a reformist union leader, Leon Cooke, who had organized the Scrap Iron and Junk Haulers Union. After the Cooke murder Ruby helped Paul Dorfman take over the union. Dorfman was part of Tony Accardo's crew and the union became part of Teamsters, which was mob controlled soon after. Like almost all of Chicago's mob killings no charges were filed when the police caught up with Ruby. He continued to work for the mob for the next 10 years until they told him to move to Dallas as part of their effort to expand to the rapidly growing Texas cities.
I could go on and on, I have a whole chapter on it but he was no wannabe. He was the real thing (unless you think the Chicago Tribune has a time machine and in 1963 went back in time to change their 1939 paper to reflect badly on Ruby).
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)So go to Dallas and wait around (open a strip club which is laying low) for his brother and then kill him. Thats how it went down?
And the best part of the plan..? There is no connection between Jack and the Mob..except for your book...
reddread
(6,896 posts)something stinks here.
im starting to feel a little sorry for you.
ok. im past it now.
time waster.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Seems you enjoy trolling around here...And getting tossed around..
reddread
(6,896 posts)thrills me to realize we live in such different realities.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)The House Select Committee on Assassinations found the connections with the Mob were deep and many.
The committee also examined allegations that, even before the 1947 move to Dallas, Ruby had been personally acquainted with two professional killers for the organized crime syndicate in Chicago, David Yaras and Lenny Patrick. The committee established that Ruby, Yaras and Patrick were in fact acquainted during Ruby's years in Chicago, particularly in the 1930's and 1940's. Both Yaras and Patrick admitted, when questioned by the FBI in 1964, that they did know Ruby, but both said that they had not had any contact with him for 10 to 15 years. Yaras and Patrick further maintained they had never been particularly close to Ruby, had never visited him in Dallas and had no knowledge of Ruby being connected to organized crime. Indeed, the Warren Commission used Patrick's statement as a footnote citation in its report to support its conclusion that Ruby did not have significant syndicate associations.
On the other hand, the committee established that Yaras and Patrick were, in fact, notorious gunmen, having been identified by law enforcement authorities as executioners for the Chicago mob and closely associated with Sam Giancana, the organized crime leader in Chicago who was murdered in 1975. Yaras and Patrick are believed to have been responsible for numerous syndicate executions. including the murder of James Ragan, a gambling wire service owner. The evidence implicating Yaras and Patrick in syndicate activities is unusually reliable. Yaras, for example, was overheard in a 1962 electronic surveillance discussing various underworld murder contracts he had carried out and one he had only recently been assigned. While the committee found no evidence that Ruby was associated with Yaras or Patrick during the 1950s or 1960s, it concluded that Ruby had probably talked by telephone to Patrick during the summer of 1963.
Included among Ruby's closest friends was Lewis McWillie. McWillie moved from Dallas to Cuba in 1958 and worked in gambling casinos in Havana until 1960. In 1978, McWillie was employed in Las Vegas, and law enforcement files indicate he had business and personal ties to major organized crime figures, including Meyer Lansky and Santos Trafficante.
Ruby traveled to Cuba on at least one occasion to visit McWillie. McWillie testified to the committee that Ruby visited him only once in Cuba, and that it was a social visit. The Warren Commission concluded this was the only trip Ruby took to Cuba,39 despite documentation in the Commission's own files indicating Ruby made a second trip.
Both Ruby and McWillie claimed that Ruby's visit to Cuba was at McWillie's invitation and lasted about a week in the late summer or early fall of 1959. The committee, however, obtained tourist cards from the Cuban Government that show Ruby entered Cuba on August 8, 1959, left on September 11, reentered on September 12 and left again on September 13, 1959. These documents supplement records the committee obtained from the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) indicating that Ruby left Cuba on September 11, 1959, traveling to Miami, returned to Cuba on September 12, and traveled on to New Orleans on September 13, 1959. The Cuban Government could not state with certainty that the commercial airline flights indicated by the INS records were the only ones Ruby took during the period.
Other records obtained by the committee indicate that Ruby was in Dallas at times during the August 8 to September 11, 1959, period. He apparently visited his safe deposit box on August 21, met with FBI Agent Charles W. Flynn on August 31,(2) and returned to the safe deposit box on September 4. Consequently, if the tourist card documentation, INS, FBI, and bank records are all correct, Ruby had to have made at least three trips to Cuba. While the records appeared to be accurate, they were incomplete. The committee was unable to determine, for example, whether on the third trip, if it occurred, Ruby traveled by commercial airline or some other means. Consequently, the committee could not rule out the possibility that Ruby made more trips during this period or at other times.
Based on the unusual nature of the 1-day trip to Miami from Havana on September 11-12 and the possibility of at least one additional trip to Cuba, the committee concluded that vacationing was probably not the purpose for traveling to Havana, despite Ruby's insistence to the Warren Commission that his one trip to Cuba in 1959 was a social visit. The committee reached the judgment that Ruby most likely was serving as a courier for gambling interests when he traveled to Miami from Havana for 1 day, then returned to Cuba for a day, before flying to New Orleans.
The committee also deemed it likely that Ruby at least met various organized crime figures in Cuba, possibly including some who had been detained by the Cuban government. In fact, Ruby told the Warren Commission that he was later visited in Dallas by McWillie and a Havana casino owner and that they had discussed the gambling business in Cuba.
It has been charged that Ruby met with Santos Trafficante in Cuba sometime in 1959. Trafficante, regarded as one of the Nation's most powerful organized crime figures, was to become a key participant in Castro assassination attempts by the Mafia and the CIA from 1960 to 1963. The committee developed circumstantial evidence that makes a meeting between Ruby and Trafficante a distinct possibility. . . .
While allegations of a Ruby link to Trafficante had previously been raised, mainly due to McWillie's alleged close connections to the Mafia leader, it was not until recent years that they received serious attention. Trafficante had long been recognized by law enforcement officials as a leading member of the La Cosa Nostra, but he did not become the object of significant public attention in connection with the assassination of the President until his participation in the assassination plots against Castro was disclosed in 1975.
In 1976, in response to a freedom of information suit, the CIA declassified a State Department cablegram received from London on November 28, 1963. It read:
On 26 November 1963, a British Journalist named John Wilson, and also known as Wilson-Hudson, gave information to the American Embassy in London which indicated that an "American gangster-type named Ruby" visited Cuba around 1959. Wilson himself was working in Cuba at that time and was jailed by Castro before he was deported.
In prison in Cuba, Wilson says he met an American gangster/gambler named Santos who could not return to the U.S.A. Instead he preferred to live in relative luxury in a Cuban prison. While Santos was in prison, Wilson says, Santos was visited frequently by an American gangster type named Ruby. . . .
The committee was able . . . to develop corroborative information to the effect that Wilson-Hudson was incarcerated at the same detention camp in Cuba as Trafficante. . . .
The committee investigated other aspects of Ruby's activities that might have shown an association with organized crime figures. An extensive computer analysis of his telephone toll records for the month prior to the President's assassination revealed that he either placed calls to or received calls from a number of individuals who may be fairly characterized as having been affiliated, directly or indirectly, with organized crime. These included Irwin Weiner, a Chicago bondsman well-known as a frontman for organized crime and the Teamsters Union;83 Robert "Barney" Baker, a lieutenant of James R Hoffa and associate of several convicted organized crime executioners: Nofio J. Pecora, a lieutenant of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia boss in Louisiana; Harold Tannenbaum, a New Orleans French Quarter nightclub manager who lived in a trailer park owned by Pecora; McWillie, the Havana gambler; and Murray "Dusty" Miller, a Teamster deputy of Hoffa and associate of various underworld figures. Additionally, the committee concluded that Ruby was also probably in telephonic contact with Mafia executioner Lenny Patrick sometime during the summer of 1963. Although no such call was indicated in the available Ruby telephone records, Ruby's sister, Eva Grant, told the Warren Commission that Ruby had spoken more than once of having contacted Patrick by telephone during that period. . . .
In light of the identity of some of the individuals, however, the possibility of other matters being discussed could not be dismissed.
In particular, the committee was not satisfied with the explanations of three individuals closely associated with organized crime who received telephone calls from Ruby in October or November 1963. Weiner, the Chicago bondsman, refused to discuss his call from Ruby on October 26, 1963, with the FBI in 1964, and he told a reporter in 1978 that the call had nothing to do with labor problems. In his executive session testimony before the committee, however, Weiner stated that he had lied to the reporter, and he claimed that he and Ruby had in fact, discussed a labor dispute. The committee was not satisfied with Weiner's explanation of his relationship with Ruby. Weiner suggested Ruby was seeking a bond necessary to obtain an injunction in his labor troubles, yet the committee could find no other creditable indication that Ruby contemplated seeking court relief, nor any other explanation for his having to go to Chicago for such a bond.
Barney Baker told the FBI in 1964 that he had received only one telephone call from Ruby (on Nov. 7, 1963) during which he had curtly dismissed Ruby's plea for assistance in a nightclub labor dispute. The committee established, however, that Baker received a second lengthy call from Ruby on November 8. The committee found it hard to believe that Baker, who denied the conversation ever took place, could have forgotten it.
The committee was also dissatisfied with the explanation of a call Ruby made on October 30, 1963, to the New Orleans trailer park office of Nofio J. Pecora, the longtime Marcello lieutenant. Pecora told the committee that only he would have answered his phone and that he never spoke with Ruby or took a message from him. The committee considered the possibility that the call was actually for Harold Tannenbaum, a mutual friend of Ruby and Pecora who lived in the trailer park, although Pecora denied he would have relayed such a message.
Additionally, the committee found it difficult to dismiss certain Ruby associations with the explanation that they were solely related to his labor problems. For example, James Henry Dolan, a Dallas AGVA representative, was reportedly an acquaintance of both Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante. While Dolan worked with Ruby on labor matters, they were also allegedly associated in other dealings, including a strong-arm attempt to appropriate the proceeds of a one-night performance of a stage review at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas called "Bottoms Up." The FBI, moreover, has identified Dolan as an associate of Nofio Pecora. The committee noted further that reported links between AGVA and organized crime figures have been the subject of Federal and State investigations that have been underway for years. The committee's difficulties in separating Ruby's AGVA contacts from his organized crime connections was, in large degree, based on the dual roles that many of his associates played. (HSCA Report, Section I C 4)
Excerpts from organized crime expert John Davis's book MAFIA KINGFISH, focusing on Ruby's ties to one of the most powerful Mafia figures in the country in the 1960s, Carlos Marcello, who was known to hate Kennedy and who was heard by five people, two of them police informants, to acknowledge involvement in Kennedy's assassination
And what did the Assassinations Committee discover about Jack Ruby's connections to the Marcello crime family?
First, the Ruby-Marcello connections in Dallas. The Assassinations Committee established that Jack Ruby was a friend and business associate of Joseph Civello's, Carlos Marcello's deputy in Dallas and the boss of Dallas's relatively small Mafia family, a reality that J. Edgar Hoover tried to keep from the attention of the Warren Commission and which the commission itself suppressed by not mentioning it in its report or published exhibits. Furthermore, it established that Ruby was on very cordial terms with Joseph Campisi, who, the committee found out, was considered to be the number two man in the Dallas Mafia hierarchy and a man on such friendly terms with the Marcello brothers that he sent the family 260 pounds of homemade sausage every Christmas.
Campisi told the committee that he knew all of the Marcello brothers and used to go often to New Orleans to play golf and go to the track with Vincent, Anthony, and Sammy . It was Vincent who first introduced him to Carlos and Joe, and Carlos had taken to him to such an extent that he invited him several times to his fishing camp at Grand Isle, where Campisi would cook spaghetti for Carlos and all the brothers and their friends.
Joe Campisi, as we know, owned the Egyptian Lounge. In its interview with Campisi the Assassinations Committee obtained an admission from him that Jack Ruby had dined with him at the lounge the evening before Kennedy was assassinated. Campisi also admitted that he had visited Ruby in the Dallas County Jail eight days after the assassination.
It is one of the practices of the Mafia to visit a member of the brotherhood who has been jailed for a crime in which the brotherhood was involved soon after he first enters his cell. One of the purposes of such a visit is to remind the jailed colleague that he is to keep his mouth shut or else something unpleasant might happen to him or to a member of his family. This is usually done in subtle ways.
Joe Campisi was Ruby's first visitor after his imprisonment for murdering the President's alleged assassin. (Incredibly, the Dallas Police did not record the ten-minute conversation between Oswald's murderer and a man known to be a close associate of Carlos Marcello's deputy in Dallas.) Campisi brought his wife along with him--an unusual move, for Mafiosi almost never include their wives in meetings at which urgent matters are to be discussed, however obliquely. Former Chief Counsel Blakey speculates that Campisi brought his wife along so as not to arouse the police's suspicion. When questioned by the Assassinations Committee as to what Ruby said during their meeting, Campisi did not recall much but did remember vividly what had already become Ruby's stock answer to the question of why he killed Oswald: to spare Jacqueline Kennedy and her children the pain of an eventual trial of Lee Harvey Oswald. (Later a handwritten note of Ruby's to one of his attorneys was discovered in which Ruby admitted he was lying, that a former attorney, Tom Howard, a friend of Campisi's, told him to use the Jacqueline Kennedy story as an alibi.)
Campisi told the committee substantially what he told the FBI three weeks after the assassination: that when he and wife arrived at Ruby's cell, they found him crying: "Here I am fighting for my life and feeling sorry for myself," Ruby was supposed to have moaned, "when I really feel sorry for Mrs. Kennedy and the kids."
Campisi's original testimony to the FBI about his meeting with Ruby in jail, which, in turn, had been transmitted to the Warren Commission, had been a masterful performance. It had conveyed the impression that Mr. and Mrs. Campisi's visit to Mr. Jack Ruby was simply a visit to an old and dear friend who had gotten into a little trouble. It reinforced Ruby's professed patriotic indignation and sympathy for Jacqueline Kennedy and her kids. But fourteen years later Campisi's story did not convince the House Select on Assassinations that the purpose of his visit to prisoner Ruby was so innocent. The committee took note that Jack Ruby had dined with a Dallas-based member of the Marcello organization the evening before the assassination of the President and that the same Dallas-based member of the Marcello organization was the first person to visit Ruby after he had been jailed for the murder of the President's alleged assassin. The committee had little choice but to regard the Ruby-Campisi relationship and the Campisi-Marcello relationship as yet another set of associations strengthening the committee's growing suspicion of the Marcello crime family's involvement in a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy or execute the President's alleged assassin or both.
Contributing to that suspicion, the committee discovered yet another friend of Jack Ruby's with a connection to the Marcello organization. His name was James Henry Dolan, and he was a representative of the Dallas chapter of the mob-controlled American Guild of Variety Artists. The committee found out that Dolan was a close friend of Carlos Marcello's lieutenant Nofio Pecora and that Dolan had spent several days conferring with Ruby in Dallas two months before the assassination.
As for Jack Ruby's connections with the Marcello organization in New Orleans, the committee was to confirm certain connections the FBI had been aware of at the time of the assassination but had never forcefully brought to the attention of the Warren Commission. The committee was able to confirm that Ruby met with New Orleans nightclub operators and Marcello associates Harold Tannenbaum, Frank Caracci, Cleeve Dugas, and Nick Graffagnini (one of Pete Marcello's managers at the Marcello-owned Sho-Bar on Bourbon Street) in June and October 1963 and made a telephone call on October 30 to the New Orleans office of Marcello associate Nofio Pecora, whose associate, Emile Bruneau, had bailed Lee Harvey Oswald out of jail that summer. (MAFIA KINGFISH, pp. 449-451)
http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/hscaonlhoandruby.htm
Now exactly what do you not understand about this busterbrown?
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Which I believe was true.. The guy was an idiot, who was always starting trouble in his bar, hanging out with strippers, living in a piece of shit apartment and this is the guy they trust to assassinate the President of the U.S.
And a drunk with a big mouth.. Perfect down low plan..
You think they were that stupid?
former9thward
(32,024 posts)Or what it is about. It is not in my post.
So you do think the Chicago Tribune was faking it in 1939. I would post a picture of the front page for that date but I don't know how to post non-internet pictures on DU posts. If you don't know about Ruby's mob connections you have done no research on him.
If you doubt it you can go down to your local library and ask to see the Chicago Tribune. If they don't have it they can easily get it with the inter-library loan program.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Im sure the mob loved hanging out at his strip club which was always full of trouble...(Typical Strip Bar)
But to say the Mob picked him out to kill Oswald at a moments notice w/o any developed plan is blather..
former9thward
(32,024 posts)I don't think anyone says that. The plan was pretty developed. Ruby was working for Carlos Marcello who was the mob boss in the southern states. Marcello had been deported by RFK to Guatemala and was almost killed. He got back to the U.S. and was going on trial for deportation again on Nov. 22, 1963.
RFK had no respect for the WC because as Attorney General he had seen the phone records of Oswald and Ruby in the days before the assassination where both had called high level mob and Teamster officials. Current Teamster leader, James Hoffa, Jr. testified that, "I think my dad knew Jack Ruby, so what?"
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)He killed Oswald the day after Oswald shot Kennedy.. He called the Press continually to find out the latest on where Oswald was and took it upon himself to just get it done.
Do you honestly believe that the head guys would tell this known nut to just get the job done..?
When you kill the U.S. President there will be an extensive investigation.. and consequences.
former9thward
(32,024 posts)Kennedy was killed Friday, Oswald Sunday. But no matter. I think we have beaten this to death. You have your views and I have mine. Have a good day!
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)See ya.....
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)or if he is simply stupid about this issue. He's embarrassing himself.
This is why I have utterly no patience with the conspiracy shit. There is NO evidence of it. People make fools spewing stuff that makes no sense.
The fact there were Russians, Cubans, CIA, FBI, and Mafia during those days doesn't mean any of them had anything to do with it. Motive simply isn't evidence, and ALL of the evidence points to Oswald being the killer and Ruby being the killer of Oswald (the conspiracy nuts can't argue Ruby was innocent because millions upon millions of us saw it on television and it is recorded for all time).
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)and if a person desires to do so, those stories can be woven together. I learned that a few years after the JFK assassination from the structure of Wilder's The Bridge Over San Luis Rey.
The significance to history of a rifle in the hands of an inconsequential man boggles the mind.
That hollow dissonance begs to be filled with meaning that can never be found in simple explanations of the ballistic evidence.
And so, to soothe ourselves, we will weave a more satisfying legend.
reddread
(6,896 posts)tiny elvis
(979 posts)here is a puzzle
what did oswald do in the texas theater before he was arrested
according to the other patrons?
look it up online
while searching, consider how hard it is to find the answer
think about why you find the same non description in most references
something like, 'he watched some of the movie'
the answer can be found in whole or part, so try it
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)That constant bilge line doesn't qualify as anything remotely close to a social science, it's laughable ninth-grade existentialism.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)It's like automatic cut-and-paste.
You're talking about Gary Hart, the senator from the Church Committee and member of the CFR, etc. etc.
And you still think you can answer with this pathetic excuse for pop psychology (which is supposed to apply to another 75% of DUers, by the way, who also don't buy into WC religion).
It's delicious to see a group of people simultaneously claim they love the rigors of science and then, when contradicted, opine on how meaningless and void of patterns the world is!
Rex
(65,616 posts)Watch them say the same keywords over and over. Sad really.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)stimulates them, to get in the woods again and start searching for more clues..
Rex
(65,616 posts)Oh you CT types are so funny with your projection! Keep to the narrative, you are something if not amusing!
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Later on she started swallowing the conspiracy swill but I never condemn her for that. She has always maintained she told the truth to the Warren Commission, and there has never been any proof otherwise. I feel for her because we know that the night before the murders, Oswald, though he had planned to assassinate JFK, was trying to make one last chance at a reconciliation with Marina. He wanted her to move with him to Dallas, and she rebuffed him. Can you even fathom the burden she has had to carry these fifty years? I am sure she literally feared for her and their children's safety, as he was violent to her, if she had gone, think of the course history would have taken had she accepted. It truly boggles the mind.
To her credit she has refused all book deals despite offers in the millions of dollars. It's just too much to bear.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)Not so many years ago, belief in such was 81 percent, now it is 61 percent and dropping like a rock.
In another 20 or 30 years, such beliefs will be in the single digits. Forensic advances have buttressed what we have known all along, whether or not we choose to "believe" it.
MinM
(2,650 posts)In September, 1975, a sub-committee made up of Hart and Richard Schweiker was asked to review the performance of the intelligence agencies in the original John F. Kennedy assassination investigation. Hart and Schweiker became very concerned about what they found. On 1st May, 1976, Hart said: "I don't think you can see the things I have seen and sit on it." However, Hart was to discover that the CIA had the power to stop him publishing the information he had discovered concerning the links between the CIA and the JFK assassination.
Hart called for a new Senate Committee to look into the events surrounding the assassination of JFK. He said it was necessary to take a closer look at Lee Harvey Oswald and his relationship with the FBI and the CIA. Hart went on to state that he believed Oswald was probably operating as a double-agent. He thought this was one of the reasons why the FBI and CIA had made "a conscious decision to withhold evidence from the Warren Commission."
In 1985 Hart and William S. Cohen, another member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, published the novel Double Man. Is it possible that Hart was trying to get this information out via a novel? I decided to get a copy of the book...
more> http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4648&page=2#entry36876
"The Warren Commission has collapsed like a House of Cards"
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)wrote a novel about how the CIA anti-Castro brigade murdered JFK?! In 1985?!
Cohen, that would be Clinton's defense secretary, no?
It's like an inside joke among the elite. If you're powerful, rich, and influential enough, you're allowed to state it, long as you're not going to rock the boat, which a novel won't really.
If you're of the 99%, however, saying it makes you crazy! So we're told by other members of the 99% who want to believe the Warren Commission!
MinM
(2,650 posts)Book about Lee Harvey Oswald ©1962
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101678958#post31
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)I wonder how the coup d'etat denialists would respond to that headline.
"Dulles was a nut! A false confessor! A right-winger! He couldn't stand living in a world where shit just happens and lone gunmen change history!"
Here's one they could also do but wouldn't normally want to use, given that they tend to believe whatever the CIA says:
"You can't trust the CIA! They always lie!"
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Look out for David Talbot's "Chairman of the Board of the JFK Assassination" may be a working title.
RagAss
(13,832 posts)One shot in the stomach is an incredible gamble if you want to silence someone. At best, even in 1963, there was a 50-50 chance of survival. There's a reason the head is the hitman's target.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Ruby managed to inflict quite a lot of damage with his single shot: autopsy revealed that the bullet on entry notched the seventh rib on the left, lacerated the spleen, penetrated the stomach, destroyed the right renal artery, damaged the right renal vein with related damaged to the vena cava, damaged the right kidney, penetrated the diaphragm, and irregularly fractured another rib on the right before exit
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)and Donna Rice.
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Each one with a different spin. Good grief. Too much monkey business from that guy.
villager
(26,001 posts)They have, predictably, failed to dig. Around any of the history-altering assassinations in the 60's.
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Houghton Mifflin? Little, Brown and Co.? Harper and Rowe? These are just a few of the biggies that have published JFK stuff.
These don't count as "official" corporate owned news publishing outlets? I think they do.
The digging has has been done to death IMHO.
villager
(26,001 posts)....election of '00 as well, but that doesn't mean it was exactly "covered" in the mainstream press.
"Media" -- which includes websites and books -- isn't what's meant by "press," in this instance.
duffyduff
(3,251 posts)There was NOTHING to follow up when the killer was captured.
Such bullshit "thinking" is what happened when Clay Shaw was being railroaded for something he had NOTHING to do with.
I could get REALLY snarky about Donna Rice and the media following up on that.
polichick
(37,152 posts)people finally knew the truth.
villager
(26,001 posts)...up to, and including, the stolen elections of this century...
polichick
(37,152 posts)corruption that has raped and pillaged this country in so many ways since then.
(And remember, Eisenhower warned the nation when he was leaving office about forces that could take over the gov't.)
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)Senators to have their phone tapped by the NSA, the other being Republican Howard Baker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
The Church Committee was the United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, a U.S. Senate committee chaired by Senator Frank Church (D-ID) in 1975. A precursor to the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the committee investigated intelligence gathering for illegality by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) after certain activities had been revealed by the Watergate affair.
(snip)
Among the matters investigated were attempts to assassinate foreign leaders, including Patrice Lumumba of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Rafael Trujillo of the Dominican Republic, the Diem brothers of Vietnam, Gen. René Schneider of Chile and Director of Central Intelligence Allen Welsh Dulles's plan, approved by the President Dwight D. Eisenhower, to use the Mafia to kill Fidel Castro of Cuba.
Committee members[edit]
Majority (Democratic) Minority (Republican)
Frank Church, Chairman, Idaho John Tower, Vice Chairman, Texas
Philip Hart, Michigan Howard Baker, Tennessee
Walter Mondale, Minnesota Barry Goldwater, Arizona
Walter Huddleston, Kentucky Charles Mathias, Maryland
Robert Morgan, North Carolina Richard Schweiker, Pennsylvania
Gary Hart, Colorado
(snip)
"If this government ever became a tyrant, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.
I dont want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
Thanks for the thread, villager.
MinM
(2,650 posts)Now Samantha has been assigned by The Disney Channel to interview the major Democratic presidential candidates for a 90-minute TV special. ''Samantha Smith Goes To Washington . . . Campaign '84'' will premiere Feb. 19 on the family pay-cable service, which has more than 600,000 subscribers...
She says she wants to discuss with the candidates such issues as children's rights, women's rights, child abuse, the Equal Rights Amendment, social security , and medicaid. And she espcially wants to know if they agree with her opinion that the drinking age for young people should be raised to 21.
Six candidates - Jesse Jackson, Ernest Hollings, Reubin Askew, Gary Hart, George McGovern, and Alan Cranston - have already accepted the Disney invitation to be interviewed by Samantha, either in Washington or in New Hampshire during the primary campaign. Walter Mondale and John Glenn have refused, but Samantha hasn't given up on them...
http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0116/011620.html/%28page%29/2
Samantha Reed Smith (June 29, 1972 August 25, 1985)
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
villager
(26,001 posts)And whoever dares disagree with Dulles!
Rex
(65,616 posts)Get under der!