Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

murielm99

(30,764 posts)
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:47 PM Nov 2013

A Christian nation?

Every few months, we go out to dinner with some people from my husband's high school class. We get together with these people we have known for so long because my husband served with them on the committee that put together his 50th class reunion. For the most part, we have had good, nostalgic fun.

One of the women was sending me vicious right-wing emails. I could not get her to stop, so I blocked her emails. Some of the others know I did this. Before I blocked her, I answered many of her emails with rebuttals and links. But now, we sit at opposite ends of the dinner table.

Lately, one of the guys who has been the most fun to talk to has been a bit problematic. He is very Catholic. He and my husband got in some sort of discussion, and this guy defended the church's cover-up of pedophile priests, and then refused to discuss it further. I told my husband to move on. We don't need to be critical of the guy's faith, which is very important to him.

Then something happened the other night that surprised me. This guy is well-read and seems knowledgeable in many areas. Out of the blue, he said that we were a Christian nation, founded on Christian principles. His face became very smug and set after he said this. I said, "Oh, no we are not. We were founded as a secular nation. I have a copy of the Constitution in my purse. (This is true, I never leave home without it). You show me any place in the Constitution that refers to Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, or anything relating to Christianity."

I started to get my copy of the Constitution out of my purse. He became very angry and said, "This conversation is over."

I said, "All right."

But it has bothered me ever since. Why is it that these people are allowed to say anything they want, and we are the bad guys if we don't sit meekly and accept it? I'm not sure we can continue socializing with these people.

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
A Christian nation? (Original Post) murielm99 Nov 2013 OP
Stop going out to eat with them - problem solved Capt. Obvious Nov 2013 #1
My husband enjoys going out with them. murielm99 Nov 2013 #4
Your husband enjoys going out with people Mariana Nov 2013 #19
Honestly JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #2
People like that need to be ostracized... Wounded Bear Nov 2013 #3
Because you said "All right." Hong Kong Cavalier Nov 2013 #5
Because they are terrified they might be wrong. A HERETIC I AM Nov 2013 #6
Even here on DU Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #13
They get the idea from here, for one: The Straight Story Nov 2013 #7
I stopped reading your post when you wrote.. RagAss Nov 2013 #8
There's no excuse for that. None. LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #10
I can't be friends with religious fanatics. It's just that simple. LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #9
Give them a copy of "The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness" el_bryanto Nov 2013 #11
The majority of Americans are Christians, Jamaal510 Nov 2013 #12
Next time don't bother ordering wine. KamaAina Nov 2013 #14
Just say "Treaty of Tripoli" reflection Nov 2013 #15
Next time this happens TlalocW Nov 2013 #16
Hey that's a good one; really Populist_Prole Nov 2013 #18
I would have just looked at him and said nothing... Contrary1 Nov 2013 #17
Christian Nation ?? Why do we treat the poor and downtrodden so horribly ? BlueJazz Nov 2013 #20
Because some christians use their religion as a vehicle for their mean spiritedness Populist_Prole Nov 2013 #21
Ah yes, I went to Catholic school. I loved every day...@3:45, when I could go home. BlueJazz Nov 2013 #22
Based on what most friends and relatives who attended say Populist_Prole Nov 2013 #23

Capt. Obvious

(9,002 posts)
1. Stop going out to eat with them - problem solved
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:50 PM
Nov 2013

I've pretty much stopped enjoying political debates in real life. I only enjoy them if they happen naturally and from a place of honesty.

murielm99

(30,764 posts)
4. My husband enjoys going out with them.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:53 PM
Nov 2013

He will stand up for his beliefs, and he supports what I said.

I have tried to get some of these people to understand that we do not care to discuss politics or religion.

I don't know what will happen. We will continue to go out for awhile. Maybe my husband will end up going by himself in the future. I am not going to tell him what to do, or spoil his time with his former classmates.

JustAnotherGen

(31,902 posts)
2. Honestly
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:51 PM
Nov 2013

Someone like that - I wouldn't socialize with. We are friends with true Conservatives that believe 100% in the separation of Church and state and who hold a hands off none of my business approach on social issues. We have spirited debates about national defense and ways to trigger the economy - but never if they were people who did that? What this guy did?

I simply wouldn't be around him anymore.

But - I'm also very outspoken and would have told him, "No it's not you little snot and you are going to sit here and eat crow."

But I'm kind of a vocal bitch like that.

Hong Kong Cavalier

(4,573 posts)
5. Because you said "All right."
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:54 PM
Nov 2013

You let him end the conversation right there. Friendship be damned, he was quite wrong and he got the last word in.

Twice in your post that man "ended the conversation" and refused to hear anything contrary to what he believes. If you're not going to prove him wrong with facts, then the best you can do is walk away from these people and cut them out of your life. They do not want to hear anything contrary to what they believe.

I do think you did quite right by pulling a copy of the Constitution out of your purse. It showed that you were knowledgeable, and he was not, and he knew it. That's why he pouted and ended the conversation.

You seem to be dealing with a spoiled brat who throws a temper tantrum (relatively speaking) each time you prove him wrong. Since you're not his parent, you don't have to do anything. I would recommend walking away from such a toxic relationship.

It's difficult to do, especially if you've been friends with them for a while, but it seems he expects you to just nod your head and accept his words as "truth" without objection.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,378 posts)
6. Because they are terrified they might be wrong.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:57 PM
Nov 2013
Why is it that these people are allowed to say anything they want, and we are the bad guys if we don't sit meekly and accept it?


The fact is, the "church" ( I use that term generically to refer to the vast majority of Christianity) has dominated the conversation for centuries. Now in the age of the internet and rapid information, they are getting pushback. They don't like it. Not one little bit.

What is funny is that the statement "This conversation is over!" is basically the same as plugging ones ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!"

It's childish and indicates that the man knows you are going to take him to a place he is not in the least bit comfortable - the truth.

They have dominated the conversation for centuries and they do not under any circumstances like the idea that that is changing.
 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
13. Even here on DU
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:18 PM
Nov 2013

nonbelievers are routinely told to shut up, keep it to ourselves, don't alienate people, don't rub anyone's nose in a lack of "faith" or advocacy of reason. Anytime there is a story about, say, an atheist billboard or a bus ad campaign, there will be several posts saying something like: "Well, I'm not religious but even I think this is going too far." A billboard or a few signs are going too far...Okaaaay...And the non-stop deluge of religious sentiment and imagery we're subjected to daily is not going too far?

I think you're right though. The Internet allows people to metaphorically gather and say: "I don't see any clothes on that Emperor. He's indeed nekkid." And those who have a vested interest in promulgating the illusions and delusions of religion do not like it one bit.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
7. They get the idea from here, for one:
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:02 PM
Nov 2013

(not saying I agree with them, but I have seen them quote some of the following in regards to the topic)

Washington's Thanksgiving Proclamation


By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.



Lincoln

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.


But personally, I like JFK's

A Proclamation

Over three centuries ago, our forefathers in Virginia and in Massachusetts, far from home in a lonely wilderness, set aside a time of thanksgiving. On the appointed day, they gave reverent thanks for their safety, for the health of their children, for the fertility of their fields, for the love which bound them together and for the faith which united them with their God.

So too when the colonies achieved their independene, our first President in the first year of his first Administration proclaimed November 26, 1789, as "a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God" and called upon the people of the new republic to "beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions... to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue . . . and generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best."

And so too, in the midst of America's tragic civil war, President Lincoln proclaimed the last Thursday of November 1863 as a day to renew our gratitude for America's "fruitful fields," for our "national strength and vigor," and for all our "singular deliverances and blessings."

Much time has passed since the first colonists came to rocky shores and dark forests of an unknown continent, much time since President Washington led a young people into the experience of nationhood, much time since President Lincoln saw the American nation through the ordeal of fraternal war--and in these years our population, our plenty and our power have all grown apace. Today we are a nation of nearly two hundred million souls, stretching from coast to coast, on into the Pacific and north toward the Arctic, a nation enjoying the fruits of an ever-expanding agriculture and industry and achieving standards of living unknown in previous history. We give our humble thanks for this.

Yet, as our power has grown, so has our peril. Today we give our thanks, most of all, for the ideals of honor and faith we inherit from our forefathers--for the decency of purpose, steadfastness of resolve and strength of will, for the courage and the humility, which they possessed and which we must seek every day to emulate. As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words but to live by them.

Let us therefore proclaim our gratitude to Providence for manifold blessings--let us be humbly thankful for inherited ideals--and let us resolve to share those blessings and those ideals with our fellow human beings throughout the world.

Now, Therefore, I, John F. Kennedy, President of the United States of America, in consonance with the joint resolution of the Congress approved December 26, 1941, 55 Stat. 862 (5 U.S.C. 87b), designating the fourth Thursday of November in each year as Thanksgiving Day, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 28, 1963, as a day of national thanksgiving.

On that day let us gather in sanctuaries dedicated to worship and in homes blessed by family affection to express our gratitude for the glorious gifts of God; and let us earnestly and humbly pray that He will continue to guide and sustain us in the great unfinished tasks of achieving peace, justice, and understanding among all men and nations and of ending misery and suffering wherever they exist.

In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States of America to be affixed.

DONE at the City of Washington this fourth day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and eighty-eighth.

RagAss

(13,832 posts)
8. I stopped reading your post when you wrote..
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:06 PM
Nov 2013

"and this guy defended the church's cover-up of pedophile priests"

You can't reason with that kind of evil. My advice....move on.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
11. Give them a copy of "The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness"
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:11 PM
Nov 2013

by Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore - great read. And I say that as a regular church goer.

Bryant

Jamaal510

(10,893 posts)
12. The majority of Americans are Christians,
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:11 PM
Nov 2013

but we are, in fact, a secular nation according to the Constitution that RWers love to tout so much.

TlalocW

(15,391 posts)
16. Next time this happens
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:45 PM
Nov 2013

Say, "Okay, if you can't defend your position, I won't push you on it."

TlalocW

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
18. Hey that's a good one; really
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:58 PM
Nov 2013

Stands on its own good enough but is a stellar comeback to the "the conversation is over" crowd.

Contrary1

(12,629 posts)
17. I would have just looked at him and said nothing...
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 03:53 PM
Nov 2013

Really, what's the point? You won't change his mind. Idiots usually spout this nonsense hoping to start a "discussion" in an attempt to show everyone how smart they are.

As soon as they realize they are debating someone armed with facts and examples, they want to change the subject.

Don't give him the satisfaction.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
21. Because some christians use their religion as a vehicle for their mean spiritedness
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 04:21 PM
Nov 2013

In this case, if the person in question is a catholic, he may identify more with the vision of a strict nun the whacks kids with a ruler or wags fingers at us with a list of do's and don'ts ( or else! ) than of the charity and forbearance type.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
22. Ah yes, I went to Catholic school. I loved every day...@3:45, when I could go home.
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 05:58 PM
Nov 2013

My memories of that place are dark and stormy.
.
.
.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
23. Based on what most friends and relatives who attended say
Tue Nov 12, 2013, 06:12 PM
Nov 2013

That it was a very penalty/punishment oriented place. Some aunts/uncles flat out said ( in so many words ) they sent my cousins to parochial school because they are hardasses at those schools; and these were not wayward hellion kids!

One very witty cousin i admire said this little ditty I still remember.

Of the tone at his school:

( mocking sing-songy sweet lilting voice ) "We want you to be a nice...kind...gentle person" ( pause ) then in a bellowing harsh threatening tone: "Or we'll knock the living hell out of ya!"

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»A Christian nation?