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noise

(2,392 posts)
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:21 AM Nov 2013

Conspiracy theory in the US

1) Truth isn't the issue. The public is expected to believe people in authority. Full stop.

2) The media doesn't have the latitude to "follow the evidence wherever it leads." That is what they want the public to believe because it hurts their credibility to admit they are constricted to toeing the line. Toeing the line typically means not ruffling the feathers of the powerful.

3) People in authority and the media do not like having their credibility questioned. So the public is presented with blue ribbon commissions that are celebrated as exhaustive definitive efforts to erase all doubts. Anyone who looks at these efforts and finds them to be obvious CYA exercises is considered a conspiracy nutcase.

4) Defenders of "official accounts" love to bash skeptics by assuming that evidence is classified for proper reasons. So they will say something like "Oh lucky for you some records are still classified so you can keep pointing to secret evidence as a means of clinging to your delusional conspiracy theories." The faith they have in the powerful to comply with classification procedures is heart warming. Really it is.

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Conspiracy theory in the US (Original Post) noise Nov 2013 OP
That's a nice theory RobertEarl Nov 2013 #1
5. Even the craziest CT's have their "FTB's" Archae Nov 2013 #2
Nicely done noise Nov 2013 #3
Yeah RobertEarl Nov 2013 #4
How about "climate change talk is a conspiracy." JDPriestly Nov 2013 #13
Hell I even believe the Lincoln assassination was a conspiracy.. Bandit Nov 2013 #21
It is easist to go along with official accounts, ergo we have too many sheeple. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #5
You have an appropriate screen name. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #6
They aren't quotes noise Nov 2013 #7
Oh. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #8
I'm the confusing one? noise Nov 2013 #9
OIC irony. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #10
This is my take noise Nov 2013 #11
It is a JDPriestly Nov 2013 #14
Could you explain your last sentence please? It is confusing and I am not sure what you are sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #19
I am not upset if you believe in CT and there are more than a few of us who do not. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #20
I don't believe in CTs. And I too get upset when people who choose to blindly support the sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #22
I stopped reading at your first "ly" word. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #23
Well, maybe that is your problem. To stop reading. I read everything otherwise I would not sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #24
Iraq has WMD's. THAT was a real conspiracy, not theory. grahamhgreen Nov 2013 #12
You know what a conspiracy theory proven to be correct is called? Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #15
Shhh..... Behind the Aegis Nov 2013 #17
There are psychologically sound reasons for conspiracy theories eridani Nov 2013 #16
Good post noise Nov 2013 #18
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
1. That's a nice theory
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:27 AM
Nov 2013

My mean theory is that they are either idiots, or conspirators themselves or work for conspirators.

Idiots seems to be the nicest depiction of those who suck up to the "official accounts", so I'll just stick with that...

Archae

(46,335 posts)
2. 5. Even the craziest CT's have their "FTB's"
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:29 AM
Nov 2013

(Bleep) -ing True Believers.

Chemtrails
Moon Landing "Hoax"
Roswell
Flying Saucers
"Greys"
Secret Societies like the "Illuminati" who will "Take over the world."
One guy could never have killed John F. Kennedy

And so on...

Lots of material for George Nutty...I mean Noory and his "Coast To Coast AM," or Alex Jones and his "A government conspiracy is to blame for everything"

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
4. Yeah
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:37 AM
Nov 2013

Saddam has wmd
Obama is a Muslim
Obama was born in Kenya
Mercury in vaccines is good for you

As opposed to your CT's, the ones I listed are concocted by some "officials".

So the country is being run by your George McNutty's. And you attack just plain common people for thinking they shouldn't trust the "officials"? WTF?


JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
13. How about "climate change talk is a conspiracy."
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:10 AM
Nov 2013

And "global warming is not due to human activities."

"Real experts" promote those ideas and present their "research" to back them up.

Conspiracy theories are fun and fascinating because they reflect people's wishes, fantasies, concerns, unanswered questions, misunderstandings, understandings, intuitions and sometimes they just happen to be very right when the official story is very wrong. It's rare, but sometimes a conspiracy theory reveals a truth or even in some cases the truth.

Most often not, but it's wrong to dismiss conspiracy theories or theories in general unless they are presented as absolute truths. Because sometimes unbelievable theories are true. They should not be dismissed out of hand. They should be examined and reviewed and only rejected once it is clear that they are untrue.

I lived in a place in which people were extremely superstitious. It was fascinating. Sometimes our beliefs and theories even if objectively unfounded or incorrect create our reality to a certain extent. A superstition that has no scientific basis at all can seem so true to someone that it affects their reality. If a person believes he should not drive on Friday, the 13th and yet he drives on a Friday, the 13th, any minor mishap on a Friday the 13th will seem to corroborate the truth of the superstition.

When facts are not thoroughly investigated, people are free to believe what they will in my opinion.

 

avaistheone1

(14,626 posts)
5. It is easist to go along with official accounts, ergo we have too many sheeple.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:40 AM
Nov 2013

The alternative to actually think - is too hard work for many.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
6. You have an appropriate screen name.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:47 AM
Nov 2013

Your prose is confusing as fuck. Who are the quotes in your OP attributed to?

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
8. Oh.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:52 AM
Nov 2013

Well whose comments are you attributing?

And if you think everyone who denies the multitude of JFK CT theorists is a CIA spook why not just come right out and say it?

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
10. OIC irony.
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:10 AM
Nov 2013

Some indicator words or phrases before the quotes would have helped transfer meaning. Some phrase such as "the so-called" or the word, "alleged" before your quote would give the reader a heads up that irony was intended. As it was, I thought you were quoting someone.

So you are saying the media hasn't been allowed to "follow the evidence wherever it leads" (see, I'm quoting you here). Can you give us an example of how the media has been halted in its efforts to follow the evidence? I mean, after all, there have been a shit pile of books movies and articles written about the JFK assassination. Did you know they hold conventions?

noise

(2,392 posts)
11. This is my take
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 04:23 AM
Nov 2013

Last edited Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:58 PM - Edit history (1)

When the networks run their JFK assassination specials they will present the Oswald as lone assassin theory as the right one. But they will suggest to their viewers that they could have run a special denouncing the Warren Commission but did not do so because the evidence for such simply isn't there. You will hear something like "For sure any shocking tragic event will have unanswered questions but the mistake is to infer that a lack of definitive explanation is proof of a conspiracy theory." Or "Shocking tragic events seemingly must be explained with complicated plots. It is simply not satisfying to believe that a single man could be responsible for such a thing."

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
14. It is a
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:22 AM
Nov 2013

"mistake to infer that lack of definitive explanation is proof of a conspiracy theory."

If there is no definitive explanation, then there is no proof. A definitive explanation backed by irrefutable evidence is the only proof that a theory is correct. That is why we speak of the "theory of evolution" and the "theory of relativity." It doesn't mean they are untrue. It means that we do not have irrefutable proof and evidence that they are true even though the odds are extremely high that they are true.

There is a good chance, perhaps a very good chance, that the Warren Commission Report's theory on the assassination of JFK is true. But in my view the reasoning and proof that Oswald acted entirely on his own had not been proven with irrefutable evidence. Probably no theory of the assassination of Kennedy can be proved with irrefutable evidence because so much evidence was destroyed either inadvertently or intentionally. And so many loose ends dangle out there thanks to the shooting of Oswald and the many odd coincidences surrounding the events of that day.

It's a shame for our country, but the evidence was not carefully protected. Oswald should never have been exposed to the public to the extent that he was. The police were either extremely negligent or intentionally set up his murder. Either way, without Oswald's testimony and without a full interrogation of Oswald for public review, the Warren Report will forever be questioned.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
19. Could you explain your last sentence please? It is confusing and I am not sure what you are
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 03:46 AM
Nov 2013

saying.

As far as people who do not believe the official story re the JFK, I am among them, there is no need to have any theory about about the case in order to be extremely skeptical of the official story. Most people do not know what happened, nor do they offer any theories at all.

They simply don't believe the official story. And since a majority of people, the numbers growing every year, don't believe it, maybe there is a reason for that.

I don't get why a few people get so upset by this fact. It's just the way it is. A majority of people across the globe don't believe Oswald was the 'lone gunman' and they don't need to offer a theory to hold that view.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
20. I am not upset if you believe in CT and there are more than a few of us who do not.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 11:08 AM
Nov 2013

Why do you try to paint me in this light?

And if you say the believers are growing every year I am sure you can provide a link to back your appeal to popularity. (DU polls won't count.)

I do not care what majorities think and believing something just because its popular is a surprising twist from you. I follow the hard evidence, logic and science; not the crowd.

I do get upset when accused of being conservative, right wing or CIA or part of a cover up just because I do not agree with CT theorist At its core, that is an ad hominem attack and a sure sign that the CTers have abandoned logic in favor of faith.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
22. I don't believe in CTs. And I too get upset when people who choose to blindly support the
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 10:29 PM
Nov 2013

'official stories' we are treated to on a regular basis, ie, WMDS IN IRAQ attack those who see so many holes in these 'official stories' such as 'WMDs in IRAQ'.

I have no idea what the truth about the JFK assassination is, but I do not believe the official story, it simply makes no logical sense. Yet, you ignored my clearly stated position and accused me of being a CT and then whine about what people accuse YOU of. I accused you of NOTHING.

I, and a majority of reasonable people, do not believe the official story of that tragedy, including the brother and wife of the president. That is all, yet you choose to attack me for holding a Mainstream Opinion. I have not attacked you or called you any names or accused of being part of the CIA. I NEVER make claims I cannot back up. Yet you have done exactly that regarding my clearly stated Mainstream Opinion.

The Midway Rebel

(2,191 posts)
23. I stopped reading at your first "ly" word.
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 10:50 PM
Nov 2013

I am not blind. Sorry. I expected better of one of my heroes. Glad to see you have clay feet too...I guess.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
24. Well, maybe that is your problem. To stop reading. I read everything otherwise I would not
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 11:07 PM
Nov 2013

feel informed enough to express an opinion. I am sorry you are unable to acknowledge and respect the opinions of others without attributing false motives to them. I am, perhaps biased, always skeptical of Right Wingers and in my experience it has been Right Wingers who demand that we accept the official story of this American tragedy and unsolved crime. That alone has caused me to doubt the 'official story'.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
16. There are psychologically sound reasons for conspiracy theories
Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:34 AM
Nov 2013

The fact that I don’t necessarily agree with various "alternative" theories on everything fro JFK to 9/11 certainly doesn’t mean that I agree with the official stance, which is to deride anyone who suspects that our government hasn’t told us the truth about what they know. To criticize “conspiracy theorists” is to blame the victim instead of taking on the perpetrators. There is a reason why people come up with conspiracy theories—they happen to be a normal and healthy response to the experience of being forbidden access to relevant information and being constantly lied to by the people who do.

The radical therapist Claude Steiner once said that paranoia is actually a heightened state of awareness, in which the paranoid put together narratives that make sense of the only information they have available. He gave an example of a woman he treated who believed that her husband was engaged in several elaborate plots on her life. What Steiner did was to interview the husband, who was disturbed by his wife's narrative. The husband was in fact thinking of having her permanently committed to the funny farm, but he always responded to his wife's questions about what was wrong between them by saying “Nothing, honey.”

That was the crux of the problem. The wife was in a heightened state of awareness and knew only that “Nothing, honey” was a pile of steaming bullshit. Not having access to real information about what was going on in her husband's head, she invented some. Steiner's ultimately successful therapy was simply to convince the husband to stop lying and withholding information. In this case, the husband did not exactly lead the examined life, and was unaware of the harm that social “white lies” can sometimes cause. Being genuinely concerned about his wife, he agreed to try to be more introspective and commit to being honest about his feelings. The wife agreed to acknowledge this effort, and to be more persistent about asking for information instead of automatically assuming the worst. Of course members of our ruling class have no such commitment to making it all better for the rest of us—see the classic Ingrid Berman/Charles Boyer movie Gaslight for a psychological take on their game.

The bottom line here is that it is a basic requirement of sanity to be able to make sense of one's information environment, to be able to put it into a coherent and meaningful picture, and if those people who know what is going on behind closed doors constantly lie to the public and withhold information, the inevitable result is that people will naturally want to fill in the blanks by any means available to them. This process is analogous to the effects of sensory deprivation—float in one of those tanks long enough to deprive your brain of sensory input, and it will quickly start inventing some.

Current official explanations of JFK. 9/11, etc. are like a picture puzzle with half the pieces missing. Many people have been taking magic markers and extrapolating from what is visible to fill in the missing spaces in an attempt to put together the entire picture. They are constantly ridiculed for this, and opinion makers who wish to be taken seriously always bog the discussion down in disputes about whether or not the colored-in parts really look like the original pieces. Some will be closer approximations than others, of course; a few may well be wildly off. But the really important issue (which remains for the most part unaddressed) is “What in bleeding hell gives our government the right to hide the pieces in the first place?”

Attacking people who are trying to make sense of their information environments with limited data is highly unethical, no matter how nutty their theories may sometimes sound. It's exactly like putting a rape victim on trial for her previous sexual history instead of going after the rapist. Theories may fall anywhere on a continuum from plausible to seriously off-base, just as women's prior sexual histories may vary from none to very experienced. By any objective analysis, some "unofficial" theories are prim virgins in high-collared white lace blouses, and some are prancing around in tight red spandex streetwalker outfits. But either way, it just plain should not matter—critics should focus on calling the rapists, liars and secret-keepers to account rather than slandering their victims.

“Conspiracy theorists” are commonly dismissed as irrational or unscientific. It's true that scientific training helps people to cope with not having certain and final answers, and that only a minority of the population has such training. One important part of scientific training is learning to avoid speculating beyond the data, but this requirement of the scientific process depends critically on the assumption (which is almost always valid) that scientists will present all relevant data and methodology to their research community as accurately and as completely as they can. Since this condition is not currently met by our government, it is outrageous to attack as “unscientific” people who express concern about a government that insists on keeping secrets from them, especially when those secrets threaten the foundation of our democracy. The attacks should be directed instead toward those who are keeping what should be publicly available information from them.

How long will the official arbiters of “reality” continue to defend the rapists, the liars, the secret-keepers who conceal information that in a real democracy ought to be made available to the public? If we could spend $40 million investigating a blow job, surely we could spend more than $15 million on finding out what really happened on the day of the worst attack on our soil. I hope that more people will join with those who are demanding honesty and transparency in the public sphere. The urge to be accepted as a real member of the elite class of reality creators, those who claim the right to lie and withhold information on the grounds that they alone are entitled to decide what the public should know, can be very tempting. Any person who gives in to this temptation badly fails our democratic republic. What is tyranny but a system in which rulers assert the right to know everything about their subjects while keeping their own operations strictly undercover?

noise

(2,392 posts)
18. Good post
Thu Nov 14, 2013, 03:35 AM
Nov 2013

It's really sad when journalists mock the public. I don't know the media climate in the years after the JFK assassination but I have observed the media in the years after 9/11 and their coverage has been over the top deferential. One good example is the coverage of a recent HBO documentary called Manhunt. The documentary is about the CIA's efforts to track Bin Laden before 9/11 and the later linkage of the courier to the Abbottabad compound. The film debuted at Sundance in January. In all the articles and interviews the CIA agents were asked almost no challenging questions. Not one journalist mentioned the fact that CIA agents obstructed two crucial pre 9/11 investigations--the USS Cole and the search for al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar who were linked to terrorist chatter in 2001 by Alec Station deputy chief Tom Wilshire.

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