Daycare Owner Kills 3-Year-Old Girl Because She Wouldn't Take Off Her Coat

[Cali_Democrat]

By Andres Jauregui
Posted: 11/04/2013 12:48 pm EST

A 3-year-old Iowa girl died from injuries allegedly sustained when her daycare provider threw her to the ground for not removing her coat, police claim.

According to court documents obtained by KTIV, Rochelle Sapp called Autumn Elgersma's mother Oct. 29 and told her that her daughter had injured her head in a fall. Sapp, who runs a daycare out of her Orange City home, said that that the 3-year-old had fallen down some stairs.

Two days later, Elgersma died in Sioux Falls, S.D., children's hospital while receiving treatment her for a skull fracture and brain swelling, according to court documents reviewed by KDLT. Doctors said the injuries were inconsistent with a child falling on a staircase.

Police allege that Sapp, 33 admitted to throwing the girl to the ground when they re-interviewed the caretaker on Thursday about Autumn's suspicious injuries, KDLT reported.

<...

According to the Sioux City Journal, neighbors remembered Autumn Elgersma as "a bubbly little girl who loved to be around people."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/04/rochelle-sapp-killed-autumn-elgersma_n_4212669.html?utm_hp_ref=crime

[seabeyond]

1. she didnt want to take off coat cause she didnt want to be there? poor baby. so sad. nt

[bluestate10]

48. I agree. Children say a lot through simple actions that they take. That is

particularly the case with very young children like a 3 year old.

[JI7]

71. yes, kids usually want to take off their coat and make a fuss of putting it on

[Bay Boy]

2. What an awful person...

...and in a business that they never should have been in.

[NYC_SKP]

3. In a civilized world, no child would ever spend a single day in "Day Care"...

I'm old enough to remember a time when the term "Day Care" didn't even exist.

Raised by a single full-time working mom, my sister and I never spent a day in day care.

The world really sucks for kids these days.

Poor darling girl, what a tragic and unnecessary death.

[silverweb]

4. I don't understand.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Who took care of you while your mom worked? I raised two children alone and had to work, and I couldn't have done it without daycare.

[NYC_SKP]

8. Mother sister and self lived with grandmother, a three generation household.

Day care was not an option where we lived and kids would be better off kept in the home with some family member.

This modern idea of two working parents, or a single working parent, where the child has to be left with strangers and strange kids doesn't work.

If it does work, it works best for the wealthy.

We are a sick society that has been forced, often willingly, into working too hard for too little and at the expense of the quality of life of our children.

There were better times when we had fewer consumer goods and comforts, but safer homes and communities and a higher standard of living, measured in holistic terms.

[silverweb]

11. Okay, I get it.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Yes, that's an ideal situation. Unfortunately, it's just not possible for many these days, if not most.

[Blue_Tires]

14. I get what you're saying

but not everyone has an extended family they can depend on...

When your relatives are irresponsible screw-ups who you can't trust to properly microwave popcorn, daycare is like a godsend...

[NYC_SKP]

16. Indeed, I was referring to an civilized world, an ideal world.

And I think it's an ideal that exists elsewhere and could exist here.

It would include fewer working hours for parents, safer and more collaborative neighborhoods, possibly extended families, child care at work, clever solutions like that.

Human cultures over the Milena have demonstrated models of healthy child care that didn't involve what we're stuck with.

[pnwmom]

35. Human cultures in the past didn't have access to transportation systems

that scattered families all over the United States and even the world.

For many if not most, care in extended families isn't a realistic option -- and even if it were, it's not as if child abuse never occurs within families. And this child was being cared for by another neighborhood mother. How is that different from your solution of " safer and more collaborative neighborhoods"? On the surface, this situation wouldn't have seemed unsafe.

[Niceguy1]

104. in a perfect world

We would have a stay at home parent. Not having one has caused all kinds of problems.

[NYC_SKP]

105. I agree, that is a major point. People seem to think they're entitled to leave home for career.

And kids come second.

It doesn't work that way, we can't often do two big things well and we have to make choices.

[Niceguy1]

108. as a society I think that the road we went down

was a big mistake.

[NYC_SKP]

109. I hope we learn.

We wonder about all the gun violence, the gang membership, the failing schools, and we never look in the fucking mirror.

Thanks for the sanity.

[dflprincess]

93. Or grandpa and/or grandma would be great babysitters

but they're still working and can't afford not to (or may not want to - not all grandparents are at retirement age).

[NYC_SKP]

106. Yeah! Hell, we're now into a third generation of "everybody get a job!"...

So the idea of grandparents watching little ones is increasingly unlikely.

Damn.

[Warpy]

17. I was a latchkey kid

because not all families are willing to live together and not all families have female relatives willing and able to raise someone else's child while that someone else goes out to work.

Day care must be subsidized to make sure it attracts the best people instead of representing the bottom tier of wages. It needs to be licensed and regulated.

However, it needs to exist because not all of us live in your perfect world.

[NYC_SKP]

21. My perfect world?

No, I'm expressing an opinion and I did not have a perfect world.

We were living in poverty but well nourished, we had good role models but also abuse.

Subsidizing shitty daycare so that all the adults can be out working for the corporate machine is not a better world.

I think you miss my point entirely.

Families need more time together.

Day care should be utilized only as a last resort.

[MattBaggins]

26. Perhaps you see the world you want to see

Why can't we have civilized quality day care and jobs that people want?

You know, surprise, some women want to get out of the house. You have some old fantasy of family life and assume it must be so.

[NYC_SKP]

33. Who said anything about women versus men?

Nice try, big fail.

Quality time for a kid means time with mom and mom, dad and dad, mom and dad, or just one.

It does NOT mean no time with either parent or guardian, which is what today's society pretty much requires.

It's a trade off, to be sure.

But choose wisely.

[moriah]

46. But if you choose older family members for caregivers, you may risk DHS involvement or worse.

Sadly, I've known three children who have died from drowning while in the care of their grandmothers while their parents were at work. They mishandled both IMHO (brought charges on one lady who lost both her grandsons on the same day -- she was taking care of an infant in another room and changing over a load of laundry, didn't hear the 3 and 5 year olds sneak outside to try to go swim in the unfenced pond on the property, they didn't bring charges against the other grandmother primarily because she was a nurse and managed to keep the toddler physically alive when she climbed into the pool after someone left a door open, the parents donated her organs, but they gave the family a lot of unnecessary grief).

And my grandfather was my primary caregiver until I ran into the street too many times and they felt I was safer in preschool. He had COPD and a heart condition, and could not chase me. If something had happened to me in his care, I'm certain in this day and age they would have brought charges against my family for choosing a caregiver that wasn't capable.

Taking care of toddlers is a job for the young, sadly. If an elderly family member isn't working, there may be a reason why, given that many people are forced to work past retirement age if they're capable.

[yardwork]

61. That's not necessarily an ideal situation. Some grandmothers abuse and kill their grandchildren.

Many day care providers are wonderful people who take excellent care of the children entrusted to them. Daycare is not necessarily a bad thing. Stay at home moms and grandmothers are not necessarily good care givers. Every situation has to be assessed on its own merits.

[lunasun]

66. PollyAnna view

[lostincalifornia]

7. It is awful.and so senseless, however, today just to get, by both parents need to work. You were

Fortunate, but many families don't have others to help out

[NYC_SKP]

10. That's a predicament that needs to be challenged.

We all have to work to hard to get too little.

It doesn't have to be this way, it doesn't have to stay this way, and the consequences to kids isn't worth it.

[lostincalifornia]

15. That change won't happen over night

[Pretzel_Warrior]

12. my son loves daycare at Kinder Care. It is reputable and has many staff

making sure they follow processes and have structured learning time even for toddlers. So....I completely disagree with your premise.

[TBF]

22. I disagree -

but I was able to utilize private daycare that many probably couldn't easily afford. I worked on & off when my children were young and utilized daycare for both at times. They learned their letters, made artwork, did music programs, and made friends (some of whom we are still in touch with today).

Like you I'd prefer a saner world where mothers (particularly those who choose to nurse) could be off from work at least a year because I do think that early learning & bonding time is so nice if you can have it. OTOH there are always parents (both male and female) who would be a holy terror to their kids if they were with them 24/7. Abusive parenting vs. skilled day care workers -- not even a choice in my mind. I'd take the daycare every single time.

Some even have video systems these days so you can watch what is happening in classrooms while you're at work.

Granted there are some bad centers out there - but as evidenced by the number of kids in foster care there are problematic parents as well.

[NYC_SKP]

24. Would you not prefer, if society and culture allowed it, to take kids to work or...

...to stay home with them?

Or for two parents, or parents and surrogates, to have more free time for family?

I'm speaking, of course, about ideals, about the same world where we'd all have health care and security.

[MattBaggins]

27. Taking kids to work is just plain silly

[NYC_SKP]

28. Wow.

OK...

http://www.siop.org/Media/News/care.aspx

http://www.childrenschoice.com/benefits-of-employer-sponsored-child-care

http://solutionsatwork.brighthorizons.com/Child-Care-and-Preschool/New-Centers.aspx

I could go on and on...

[MattBaggins]

30. You could go on and on and on

with all those many examples of daycare.

I don't understand your point on ending daycare by bringing kids to daycare. That's not bringing them to work.

[NYC_SKP]

32. It depends.

But the bigger point is really that, unless you're a creationist, you have to look at what the human being needs for early development and the models of this would have never included situations in which the child is removed from the home/group setting and taken to some other group for 10 hours a day so that the parents could toil all day, only to come home exhausted.

Do you get my drift? It ain't natural, just like high fructose corn syrup and sucking fossil fuels out of the planet, it ain't natural.

We are working too hard, we are collectively sacrificing quality family time, critical years for the developing child, for what???

I'm amazed at how tightly people seem to cling to the status quo. Poor kids.

I am, it should be clear, speaking of ideal conditions.

Taking a child to a workplace care setting is FAR better than to a commercial day care business.

YMMV.

[MattBaggins]

38. natural schmatural

I don't go for that fallacy.

Kids do indeed need much nurturing and care for development. No one is arguing against that but you seemed to be making an attack against all daycare because of our lax support and controls for them based on one incident of a horrible rotten person.

In the magical good old days kids were dragged off to work to toil with the parents for 16 hours only to come home with everyone exhausted and no one educated at all.

It's amazing how tightly people cling to fantasies of times that never were and refuse to evolve to changing societies. We need a better system but women staying at home or grand parents being forced to raise kids may not work either.

It is a fallacy to claim that a "workplace care setting is FAR better than to a commercial day care business". A workplace setting will most likely be a commercial one. They would need to both be judged on other factors.

[lunasun]

81. +1 for reality check

[TBF]

75. I think most would prefer it -

but not all. Many folks are really not cut out for parenting 24/7. Just my opinion.

[MattBaggins]

25. What a strange thing to say

should women be forced to stay at home or should we perhaps have better day care system.

[surrealAmerican]

31. Just because the name "day care" didn't exist ...

... doesn't mean the concept didn't. They were called "day nurseries" in most places.

[pnwmom]

36. No, we called these people "baby-sitters" then -- but they did exist. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

40. 365 days a year baby sitters? 9-5 babysitters???

No, they didn't. Nobody did that, babysitter age kids were in school.

Maybe the neighbor, the aunt, but then that might be a healthy community, the village that raises a child.

I hope you catch my drift.

We need to stop and think about the quality of life for children.

Maybe we need to look to the past and to other cultures to see how they manage this because, trust me, they don't fucking haul their kids off to kid warehoused for ten hours a day, five days a week.

[MattBaggins]

41. I'm not sure this world existed

Wealthy families had nannies or perhaps slaves. Everyone else left the kids with the oldest sibling or the kids were working the fields alongside their parents.

[NYC_SKP]

44. I'd argue that the 3-generation poor family in a tenament apartment was a better model.

I would further argue that, often, the modern two-working-parent with kids in daycare model is the equivalent of that.

And I actually had one foot in that world of being in the fields, but the fields had tractors and I didn't work.

It doesn't work in every workplace, but the idea of kids somewhere in the vicinity of the parent(s) as they work is not at all a bad one.

More time together, exposure to different stimuli.

[pnwmom]

43. Yes, 9-5 babysitters. They're not a 21st century invention.

The girl was being cared for by another woman in the neighborhood, at her home.

In an earlier generation, it wasn't unusual for women with jobs to rely on another mother in the neighborhood for babysitting -- just as it isn't unusual now. But we called it baby-sitting rather than daycare.

[lunasun]

84. ""we need to look to the past and to other cultures to see how they manage this""

[pnwmom]

39. So France isn't part of the civilized world? Or the numerous other

countries around the world that offer state-subsidized, nurturing daycares?

[NYC_SKP]

42. Read my other replies in support of workplace care.

Kids need more time with their family as they develop, they can't be with strangers.

At least where workplace care is provided, they could travel to work and home from work with a parent and have a mid-day meal together, which would still be a far cry from the natural setting that kids enjoyed up until the industrial revolution took a full grasp of our sensibilities.

[pnwmom]

47. So you ARE saying that France isn't part of the civilized world,

because they have state-subsidized daycare that isn't part of the workplace.

What you are forgetting is that strangers stop being strangers and become familiar caregivers. My toddler granddaughter, like this girl, is being cared for 5 hours a day in the home of another woman, and there is a very loving, caring relationship. You don't have to be related by blood to a child to care for her.

[NYC_SKP]

52. I'm not goint to do this with you, you putting words in my mouth, fuck France.

I haven't said a fucking thing about France.

I'm not interested in France.

I'm interested in restoring respect to people who raise children.

Why don't we respect and reward people who care for their children?

In a civilized society, we would. Clearly, we live in a consumerist capitalistic society and children come second or third, generally.

You want to talk about France? Leave me out of it, I don't live there.

But I'd like to visit!

[pnwmom]

54. I was an at-home mother and I never felt the need to have respect

restored to me or to other at-home mothers.

And I think my daughter is doing equally well as a mother who pays another woman to take care of her child while she's at work.

There is no one correct way to be a parent. Your generalizations are really off-base and unsupportive to most women.

[Dorian Gray]

70. This times 1000

[NYC_SKP]

86. Some men and women can do it, others can't. We should be supportive of all.

And you need to stop assuming I'm addressing women and not parents, both genders.

OK?

[pnwmom]

95. You began all of this by referring to your single mother

who managed to raise you with the help of relatives. If she could do that, so could or should everyone else -- either that, or daycare at work. That was your clear message.

And it's just plain wrong.

Even when there are two parents and one of them makes sufficient income so that the other could stay home, that isn't necessary to be good parents. Do you realize how many women have professional careers these days? My doctor is married to a doctor and neither of them stayed home taking care of their small children, and they didn't have daycare at the office, either -- and this didn't make them bad parents. Most women who go to graduate school for a profession aren't going to drop out for several years to have children -- and their children have just as good a chance to do well as anyone else's. It all depends on the individual situation.

I cannot believe I'm having to argue this with a progressive in 2013. Wow.

[phylny]

103. Agreed.

My husband and I decided that we would live on his salary and I would stay home with our daughters until they were all in school, at which time I'd reenter the workforce. I have to say that for us, it was ideal - and most likely much less stressful for all of us. I went back to school part-time when our youngest was 18 months old to get a second degree and Masters, and then worked a school schedule for five more years until I left the school setting to go into business for myself.

Reality check here is that we were married in 1981, and our daughters were born in '85, '88, and '92. Nowadays, I don't imagine young married families can easily do what we did, that was live on one salary (and my husband did not make a lot of money back then).

Back to the subject here, I can't imagine the despair and anguish the parents and family of this poor little girl must be feeling. I often tell parents that in my estimation, I'd rather have my child taken care of in a public setting with other eyes on the caregivers than in a private setting or home. Just my opinion. If a private daycare is chosen, I'd insist on a camera where I could monitor the interaction at intervals.

Poor little princess girl.

[pnwmom]

107. When my daughter called one of the references

given for the small daycare home, the reference was interrupted repeatedly by her 3 or 4 year old daughter who was asking to speak to my daughter. She wanted to talk to my daughter herself. So she did. She said how much she loved the provider, and missed her (she's moved on to preschool.)

Hard to get a better reference than that!

[hrmjustin]

58. I see your back.

[pnwmom]

64. Do you know who that was?

Glad he disappeared so quickly.

[hrmjustin]

65. Yes. Pay her no mind.

[pnwmom]

59. Oh, right. Mothers use daycare because they are so self-absorbed.

And fathers use daycare because they have self-absorbed wives.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. your idea of a civilized world sounds like a nightmare for most working women

[NYC_SKP]

50. Why is this about women?

It's about children.

Dad's can stay home, or one woman in a two woman relationship can stay home.

In a world where we didn't have to work so fucking hard, and for so little, children would matter enough for us to stand up to the powers that be and say, stop it!

But we don't do that. We don't care about quality of life for kids, we don't see that they need to spend more time with their primary human(s) than before work and after work.

Raising children IS WORK and we should respect that, and reward that.

Man or woman, it is work and it is JOB NUMBER ONE.

I can't believe you would disagree with that idea.

[pnwmom]

62. Some women actually want to work, and are still good mothers,

but that thought seems to be beyond you.

[NYC_SKP]

72. Women who are full-time mothers are working women. Men who are full-time fathers are, too.

And there are plenty of instances of combinations or stay-home and work that don't impact a child's early development.

All these years of progress and still no respect for stay at home parents who raise children.

It fits the corporatists' vision quite well, everybody work, leave the child care to us.

Sad.

[pnwmom]

76. Yeah, fine, I forgot the P.C. language.

I was a full time mom myself, but I wouldn't presume to make that choice for anyone else or announce to the world that that was the only way to be a good parent.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. because in reality, if day cares closed women would stay home primarily and not men

pretending otherwise doesn't make it so

jobs are not just for money for most people, they provide many other psychological and social benefits. Good daycare and early schooling does no harm to kids and is very beneficial in preventing the slowing down of women's careers.

No, i think providing security for your child is important but providing company for your child does not have to be ones "job number one". Company and security are not the same thing.

Yes, i do disagree with this idiotic notion that a child needs parental company all day.

[wickerwoman]

110. Studies have found kids in quality day care and pre-K programs

transition better into kindergarten and school and are better socialised than kids that stay at home all day.

It actually does take a village.

And the truth is there's a lot of inexperienced parents that just aren't very good at it. It takes a lot of practice and it's often really beneficial to be able to watch skilled childcare professionals interact with your kid to see how much of the negative dynamic can be caused by the what the parent is doing.

I'm woman enough to admit that giving birth to a child doesn't give me any particularly unique insights into raising or interacting with that child compared with someone who has dedicated their life to learning how to do it well.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

111. yeah, i know. i am pretty well versed in the work-family literature

[pnwmom]

114. I know my daughter has learned a lot from the woman

who helps with her one year old, who happens to be about my age. Several times my daughter has asked me for advice and I've given it -- and then she's said, "yeah, that's what Mary said, too."

So of course I think Mary is brilliant.

[lunasun]

68. and like everyone is dropping their kids off because they are consumers....... maybe of food??beds??

reminds me of the homeless conversation here where some unenlightened asked why relatives just cant take them in
Gee maybe because not everyone has relatives with room or $
or their relatives live in apts. that restrict how many can live there
or gee have no relatives

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. agreed. incredibly burdensome to women's careers.

if i had to drop a kid of at my moms, it would necessitate that i lived near mom/had a mom/mom was free to do this/mom wanted to do this

that sounds like an absurd number of things would have to line up for me

[lunasun]

79. exactly it was an illogical antiquated view of women with classist undertones imo

[NYC_SKP]

80. That would be a reasonable choice to make, and one that many parents made in their time.

My thesis is a complex one based on larger themes than the present and immediate, I should have made it clear.

In a civilized society, (I should have said 'ideally') nobody would be forced to make the difficult decision or have to depend upon daily day care with an untrustworthy provider.

Instead, in an ideal world, parent(s) would be afforded more time with children.

I hope you can accept this clarification, which really goes to the heart of my very first original reply, way up at the top of the thread.

[gollygee]

5. That's heartbreaking

[joeybee12]

6. Phuck...how awful...

RIP sweetie.

[gopiscrap]

9. OMG that poor girl and her family!!!

[indepat]

13. RIP sweet child. What a tragedy on so many levels. Our hearts go out to the parents and other

loved ones.

[Politicalboi]

18. It should be required that

Daycare centers have cameras in EVERY room so stories can't be made up about anything. It also protects care givers from false accusations.

[LeftofObama]

19. That poor baby!

[Rex]

20. Authoritarians are a sick bunch.

Poor little child, she did NOTHING WRONG and died for it! Authoritarians are sick in the head, the level of control that they want over other people is disturbing and wrong.

A normal person would have let the kid keep her coat on!

[arely staircase]

23. Jesus wept nt

[frogmarch]

29. and the killer smiles proudly

in her mugshot.

I hope she is locked up for the rest of her life!

[NYC_SKP]

34. I wonder if she, herself, grew up being raised by strangers in a day care center.

Strange how this shit works.

And tragic.

[pnwmom]

51. Most of us who have experience with childcare givers realize

that these people quickly stop being strangers and become valued friends and sources of support.

My daughter more than once has asked me for advice about her toddler and then said, "yes, that's what Mary said." You have a bias against home care providers that is really unfair. Every situation has to be judged on its own merits.

[NYC_SKP]

53. That's gotta be true, every case is different.

And I know most of us would spend as much time as our society would allow us, if our society would allow us to.

When I bash modern America by calling for a more civilized society, I don't bash those who are faced with the poor choices, I am critical with the hope that we can work together for a better world.

We have changed, within my lifetime, toward less time with kids, and I think it's very sad.

How do we change that?

Or do we not want to?

[pnwmom]

57. My daughter wasn't faced with a poor choice. She's not working because

she absolutely must -- but because she feels good about her job AND about being a mother. And she's doing well in both spheres of her life, and her daughter is obviously thriving.

[kcr]

67. Parents and relatives abuse and kill their children, too.

This was tragic and horrific, but to use this as an indictment on day care is wrong.

[elehhhhna]

74. being in daycare as a child creates MURDERERS

a true scientifical fact

[Sheldon Cooper]

82. Are you fucking kidding me?

You're speculating that the woman who killed this child may have been a victim of daycare herself? Jesus christ - you DO realize that far more children are killed by their biological parents than are killed by day care providers? Are you going to blame day care on that as well?

You are not getting any support for your ridiculous theory here, what does that tell you?

[NYC_SKP]

83. Good parenting is good. I don't know how else to phrase it.

The idea that parents, and not health care provider strangers, should raise a child is being attacked.

What does that tell YOU?

[Sheldon Cooper]

87. Bullshit, that's not what you are saying and you know it.

You have spent this whole thread bagging on daycare, to the extent of saying that the woman who killed that baby did it because maybe she herself was in daycare.

NO ONE is attacking parents for raising their children. NO ONE and you are being disingenuous to state that.

[NYC_SKP]

90. I refuse to defend the culture that requires the middle class to put kids in care.

That's my point of departure, sport.

You don't have to agree. I want kids to be with parents, and I want parents to have free time to be with their kids.

Don't like it if you don't want to. I don't care.

[Nevernose]

112. +1 (n/t)

[alphafemale]

37. It's a one story house on a slab. Stairs?

That poor child.

Daycare should be way more strictly regulated.

[Blue_Roses]

56. oh, my gosh...this is horrible!

What a beautiful smile on that child! What was the big deal with letting her keep her coat on? She could have been running a fever and had the chills, afraid (very probable considering what happened) or any other number of reasons. The bottom line is :What was the big deal with this woman? I bet this wasn't the first time she abused a child. The poor child was probably afraid to say anything.

Just so sad.

[Initech]

77. Yeah seriously! You have to wonder what is wrong with some people!

[pnwmom]

78. Interesting how the OP became a forum for denigrating mothers

who work outside the home.

I'm sure that isn't what you had in mind, Cali_Democrat!

[NYC_SKP]

85. Or for arguing against parents being good parents. It's possible to be both.

Please point to any reply that says that mothers working outside the home is in any way wrong.

I know it wouldn't have been one of my replies.

All of my replies are in support of a better world, maybe in the future, where young developing children can spend more time with one or both parents, natural or adopted.

Either gender, pnwmom.

So I hope you're referring to some other DU member's replies and not mine, because if you are you would be way off the mark.

I'm here to advocate for the child and for the parent and making the claim that we all work too much and the world that makes us work doesn't allow us to be good parents.

So, "denigrating mothers" um, no, must be someone else.

And that anyone would rail against my suggestions that employers provide options for child care at the workplace and favoring more time with young children is really deplorable.

[pnwmom]

88. You have been repeatedly denigrating mothers who hire "strangers" --

meaning non-family members -- to take care of their children while they work. So, yes, I am counting your posts among those denigrating many women.

I'm not railing against your support for employers to offer childcare -- that's a great idea. But I think you're wrong to insist that at-home or day care providers can't do a good job.

[NYC_SKP]

92. I've consistently used the term "parents" and "mom" and "dad" interchangably.

I think that there are models for good out of home or in home care, but who can afford it?????

Again, I refuse to support a culture that required the middle class to send their young children out to day care while they work their asses off.

I can't believe it's being seen as anything but a principled progressive stance.

Read the original reply, I'm speaking in idealistic terms.

Nobody should be forced to leave kids with others, yet millions are, aren't they?

[pnwmom]

96. You only don't blame parents when they're faced with "poor choices."

But it's clearly not okay with you when there are two working parents who choose to work and choose to send their child to "strangers."

[NYC_SKP]

97. Pre school age children?

No, I don't support full time working away from home parents who leave their kids with others, especially if they are parents of means who could choose to work less or find ways to work at home or make more time with the kids.

I find that selfish and not in the best interest of the children.

Don't have children if you don't want to spend time with your children. What, is that crazy talk?

As the kids grow and enter school, it changes, of course.

[pnwmom]

98. YES! Even BABIES! I think both parents should be able

to work outside the home, leaving their BABIES or TODDLERS or PRESCHOOLERS with STRANGERS without being accused of being selfish or doing something not in the best interest of the children.

And, yes, I think this even though I stayed home with all of my own children. I know my daughter's an equally good mother even though she's taking a different path. I would hardly expect either her or her husband to drop out of the workforce after working so hard for so long to get their advanced degrees. They're a plane ride away from all their relatives, so getting help from any of us isn't an option. And there is no daycare offered at either of their workplaces. But they have a wonderful woman helping them, and my granddaughter is clearly thriving. When they're with her, they're completely focused on her, and she knows she's loved.

[NYC_SKP]

100. Who accused anyone of anything? I see the problem now. Clarification: this is not about you.

How about people who would prefer to be with their children, at home or while working?

This is not about you. You go ahead and be you if you can afford it and find great care, it's probably a good thing all around if it works for you.

I want to support folks that would like to be with their children and not be forced by conditions to have to leave them with others.

Do you know anyone like that?

I do.

Let me repeat and then you go ahead and argue with it:

[font size=4]I support folks that would like to be with their children and not be forced by conditions to have to leave them with others.

[pnwmom]

101. You said: "In a civilized world, no child would ever

spend a single day in daycare."

And you also said: "

"This modern idea of two working parents, or a single working parent, where the child has to be left with strangers and strange kids doesn't work.

"If it does work, it works best for the wealthy.

"We are a sick society that has been forced, often willingly, into working too hard for too little and at the expense of the quality of life of our children."


Are you retracting that now? My daughter isn't wealthy so she doesn't get off on that excuse. But what she's doing is working out very well. And it's working well for her friends, and my doctor, and many other women who hire "strangers" to help with their children.

[NYC_SKP]

102. Not retracting. "where the child has to be left with strangers" connotes a lack of choice.

Now feel free to pick apart every word and every reply, it won't matter.

Working too hard for too little and putting little ones in day care over it is BULLSHIT.

If you can afford to do it and can do it well and still be good parents, then that person is the exception, not the rule.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. yeah, i know.

[The Straight Story]

94. If the perp had used a gun nothing else would have been discussed

in the absence of a thing to blame (which is super easy to do) people tend to look for other answers as to 'why'. Had they used a gun this would be stopped from ever happening again in the human race if we took them all and handed them to the military. Because that would be the cause.

Now? Folks don't have that to rally around and complain about, so something else (never someone) must be brought in to be discussed to make sense of it all.

Probably more discussion about causes/psychology/etc here than Adam Lanza. Cause we all know, without a gun he would be out saving baby deer who had been hit by careless drivers.

[lunasun]

113. yes -why they are not even "civilized"!

I would think civilized people would have sympathy for the poor parents
Not disdain that they were using daycare

[mucifer]

91. I just hope the police didn't get a false confession out of that woman.

Those kind of things happen a lot. Sometimes they question people for hours and hours and hours and people get stressed and sign confessions and sometimes start believing things they didn't do.

[pnwmom]

99. I slipped going down the stairs many many times as a child.

I ran around in socks and we had wooden stairs. It's hard to imagine how this little girl broke her skull.

I wonder if there were any other children around when the incident happened.