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Playinghardball

(11,665 posts)
Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:12 PM Oct 2013

Fukushima Update: Fuel Rods to Be Removed from Pool at Nuclear Plant



TOKYO -- Japanese regulators on Wednesday gave final approval for the removal of fuel rods from an uncontained cooling pool at a damaged reactor building considered the highest risk at a crippled nuclear plant.

Removing the fuel rods from the Unit 4 cooling pool is the first major step in a decommissioning process that is expected to last decades at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant, where three reactors melted down after the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami.

The Nuclear Regulation Authority said at its weekly meeting that the proposal by the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co., is appropriate and that the removal can start in November as planned.

"It's a major step toward decommissioning," said Toyoshi Fuketa, one of the authority's five commissioners. "Moving the fuel rods out of Unit 4 can significantly reduce the risk at the plant."

The Unit 4 reactor was offline when the plant was hit by the disasters, but the building was damaged by hydrogen explosions and fire. Fuel rods in the pool, however, have since been properly cooled and are safe enough to remove, officials said.

TEPCO has reinforced the structure around the pool and says the Unit 4 building can survive a major earthquake, but the unenclosed pool on the unit's top floor, which contains 1,533 fuel rods, has caused international concern. About 200 of the rods that are unused and safer are expected to be the first to be removed.

The Unit 4 cooling pool has attracted international attention in part because early in the crisis it was suspected to have dried up, when in fact there was enough water to cover the rods, keeping them from melting. TEPCO last year plucked two unused fuel rod units out of the pool and said no major corrosion or damage was found in them.

More at: http://www.weather.com/news/science/environment/fukushima-fuel-rods-removed-20131030
40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Fukushima Update: Fuel Rods to Be Removed from Pool at Nuclear Plant (Original Post) Playinghardball Oct 2013 OP
...and now the fun, or horror begins. Cooley Hurd Oct 2013 #1
Time to go watch "On The Beach" Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #15
who ever is going to remove those rods is..... madrchsod Oct 2013 #2
One mistep and they are a dead man. Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #20
Wonder how they did it in 1942 zipplewrath Oct 2013 #35
TEPCO has lied from Day One. Octafish Oct 2013 #3
It's only the exquisitely most poison substance on earth longship Oct 2013 #5
Secret Science hasn't shared much of what is known... Octafish Oct 2013 #11
Okay! Let me get through this. longship Oct 2013 #12
Lots of research done in secret on nuclear weapons... Octafish Oct 2013 #19
Actually, most science IS secret. bananas Oct 2013 #34
Okay, I will grant Octafish and Bananas points, in part. longship Oct 2013 #36
The last link does not work. longship Oct 2013 #13
Doesn't work for me, anymore, either...PDF from DOE...here's link... Octafish Oct 2013 #18
Nice to see all the people hoping and wishing for a success. Bonobo Oct 2013 #4
I would like to see a success, but I started out as a Nuke ET Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #21
Rather odd coincident. Bonobo Oct 2013 #22
Ok that is seriously weird. Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #24
Of course I'm hoping for success Art_from_Ark Oct 2013 #23
To be honset I don't think they will get that far to worry about where Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #25
BANANAS!11 xchrom Oct 2013 #38
There is no choice here. longship Oct 2013 #6
I wish they would go the sacrhopus route and inject concrete into the ground around Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #26
Well, that may not be possible. longship Oct 2013 #27
The Sarhopuous like Chernoybly has. Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #29
I don't know if they know that the rods are bent, broken, melted. longship Oct 2013 #30
Here: Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #32
Well, that's talking about the rods in the reactor core, I think. longship Oct 2013 #33
TEPCO Admits Damage To Unit 4 Fuel And Pool; IAEA Letter Confirms Pool Fire At Fukushima 4 in 2011 bananas Oct 2013 #37
Well, they are still going to have to deal with them. longship Oct 2013 #40
This IS Scary Shit- ruffburr Oct 2013 #7
Sounds like pick up sticks. Eleanors38 Oct 2013 #31
As with Apollo 11, people would be on seat's edge... Wilms Oct 2013 #8
Yikes! Rhiannon12866 Oct 2013 #9
... nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #10
I hope they get this shit done rather then sitting around talking about it while picking their asses davidpdx Oct 2013 #14
The rods were set by computer programs, but now they will have to be removed manually Johnny Ready Oct 2013 #16
Keep your fingers crossed, folks. MineralMan Oct 2013 #17
I understand the operation will take about a year librechik Oct 2013 #28
only 1 thing comes to mind: how? nt xchrom Oct 2013 #39
 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
20. One mistep and they are a dead man.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:48 AM
Oct 2013

Last edited Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:18 AM - Edit history (1)

Computers control a rod withdraw from a regular functioning, undamaged reactor pile.

What they are doing is the equivent of pulling a bent melted rod from a smashed box of cigarttes poised on a multi-story, wobbling structure and doing it manually .

They are deadmen.

longship

(40,416 posts)
5. It's only the exquisitely most poison substance on earth
Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:48 PM
Oct 2013

And that's ignoring that it's radioactive.

TEPCO has acted horribly in this affair. And they did not even save face. (So to speak.)

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
11. Secret Science hasn't shared much of what is known...
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 01:40 AM
Oct 2013

...the little I got, I've shared since learning about the MOX fuel.

Release of plutonium isotopes into the environment from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant accident: what is known and what needs to be known

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es402212v

Here's info in a form for non-scientist stupid people like me:

Study: High plutonium-241 activity detected over 30 kilometers from Fukushima plant — Additional research suggests “long-distance transport” of plutonium

http://enenews.com/study-high-plutonium-241-activity-detected-30-kilometers-fukushima-plant

Then there's this:

DOE-STD-1128-98

Guide of Good Practices for Occupational Radiological Protection in Plutonium Facilities


EXCERPT...

4.2.3 Characteristics of Plutonium Contamination

There are few characteristics of plutonium contamination that are unique. Plutonium
contamination may be in many physical and chemical forms. (See Section 2.0 for the many
potential sources of plutonium contamination from combustion products of a plutonium fire
to radiolytic products from long-term storage.) [font color="red"]The one characteristic that many believe is
unique to plutonium is its ability to migrate with no apparent motive force. Whether from
alpha recoil or some other mechanism, plutonium contamination, if not contained or
removed, will spread relatively rapidly throughout an area.
[/font color]

SOURCE (PDF file format): http://www.hss.doe.gov/nuclearsafety/techstds/docs/standard/DOE-STD-1128-2008.pdf

Even the most minute amounts, plutonium contamination means death to innocent people.

longship

(40,416 posts)
12. Okay! Let me get through this.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 02:02 AM
Oct 2013

First, Plutonium is very massive. It has an atomic weight higher than any natural element on earth. Therefore, it does not travel easily. If there is plutonium release at Fukushima Daiichi it will likely stay close to Fukushima Daiichi.

I don't know where you are getting your information but I will have to look at your citations before I comment further.

I'll be back with you.

BTW, I take great exception to your characterization of "secret science". Science is an open enterprise, practiced by academics who only advance by publishing their work in publications available to anybody. (Granted, some with subscription, but certainly NOT secret.) if science was secret, science would not work.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
19. Lots of research done in secret on nuclear weapons...
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:28 AM
Oct 2013

...and in other areas deemed of interest to national security. GOOGLE Sidney Gottlieb for an example of one secret scientist.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
34. Actually, most science IS secret.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 12:22 PM
Oct 2013

A lot of science is classified for national security reasons.

A lot of science is done by corporations and categorized as "trade secrets". Scientists have to sign non-disclosure agreements when they work on these projects.

A lot of science doesn't get published or distributed - "negative results don't get published". Doctors got pissed off about this and started filing FOIA requests with the FDA to find out why patients were having serious side effects and not responding to new drugs - turns out the FDA would allow corporations to keep running trials until they got a positive result, and then pretend that the previous trials never happened - totally skewing the statistics.

A lot of scientific journals place restrictions on use and distribution of their articles.

Just last year, scientists petitioned Obama to allow open access to taxpayer-funded research: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1228&pid=7060

longship

(40,416 posts)
36. Okay, I will grant Octafish and Bananas points, in part.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 01:16 PM
Oct 2013

Yes, there is private science. And yes, some is secret by govt mandate.

But a vast proportion of science is academic, not private. The journals, many subscription only, are available to anybody who pays for subscription. That's not secret. Saying it is does not make it so.

There are two movements in science which may change this dynamic. First, is to open publish all government funded research. Second, is to establish peer reviewed journals that are freely available to everybody.

The Internet is helping with these efforts. The dead tree journals are undoubtedly having problems sustaining their printed media in the Internet age.

Those of us wishing science to be more open support such efforts because science works best when it's transparent.

But I accept your points, albeit with qualifications. Most science is published.

When it comes to things like Fukushima, openness is in everybody's best interest. What I've seen is that there are some sources which are open. I've also seen a lot of fear mongering based on rubbish. Openness is the solution to that, too.

Thank you for your responses.

longship

(40,416 posts)
13. The last link does not work.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 02:11 AM
Oct 2013

Takes me to a redirect which takes me to the general Web site, not the document.

I work from an iPhone (all I have here). Please update the link for me.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
4. Nice to see all the people hoping and wishing for a success.
Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:46 PM
Oct 2013

I am eagerly awaiting the first asshat who mentions "bananas".

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
21. I would like to see a success, but I started out as a Nuke ET
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:19 AM
Oct 2013

in the navy before I ended up on Admiral's staff. After all I would like to retire to Japan. I am just not optomistic.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
22. Rather odd coincident.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:25 AM
Oct 2013

I have a friend that was a Nuclear engineer in the navy and who is into kendo. He is a 5-dan, having been promoted to the rank in Japan -so needless to say, he is very, very good.

He lives here in Japan now.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
24. Ok that is seriously weird.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:34 AM
Oct 2013

Course I am only a 2nd Dan. He's lucky bastard to live in Japan.

I despise the US.

I do hope it Fukishima goes well. But down deep I feel like I am watching a slow train wreck.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
23. Of course I'm hoping for success
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:29 AM
Oct 2013

I practically have a front-row seat to this drama.

What I'm wondering is, where are they going to put these rods? I'm thinking one or more abandoned mines in the Tohoku region, but that would then entail land transport over roads that might not be in such great condition.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
25. To be honset I don't think they will get that far to worry about where
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:36 AM
Oct 2013

to put them. It will go terribly wrong way before that.

I hope it won't, but the whole structure is a tangled collapse waiting to happen.

longship

(40,416 posts)
6. There is no choice here.
Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:53 PM
Oct 2013

They have to do this. It is risky, but the risk of not doing it is likely much, much greater. Another earthquake could collapse the building and then there would be real hell to pay.

I wish them well.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
26. I wish they would go the sacrhopus route and inject concrete into the ground around
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:38 AM
Oct 2013

and under it. Either that or freeze the ground. It would be a fortutune but no where near the disaster their going to have.

longship

(40,416 posts)
27. Well, that may not be possible.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:24 AM
Oct 2013

I am a little out of my element on this, but I think the cores have melted down. I don't know what that means regarding a sarcophagus solution, but it is something to consider.

Freezing does not seem to be a very good long term solution to me. And make no mistake, that's what is needed here.

I think the best solution is to get the stuff out of there and put it where it will do no more harm.

It is a very tough problem.

I am afraid that those fuel rods in the spent fuel pool have to be removed. There is no other choice here. Another earthquake could collapse the damaged reactor building and then there'd be a very real hell to pay.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
29. The Sarhopuous like Chernoybly has.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:29 AM
Oct 2013

Freezing or injecting the concrete into the ground. In order to stabilze the water soaked ground. Which at this point is almost quicksand-like as far as structurally.

In a clean reactor with everything functioning they use computers to pull a rod out of a pile.

Here you have a mass of bent, broken, melted rods smashed together on top of a wobbling multi-story structure, which they plan on pulling apart manually.

...sounds like one of those old Irwin Allen Disaster movies come to life.

longship

(40,416 posts)
30. I don't know if they know that the rods are bent, broken, melted.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:38 AM
Oct 2013

I think they know that they are NOT bent, broken, or melted. Or at least not likely bent, broken, or melted. Otherwise, I do not think their removal would be possible. Just the fact that they are apparently going to try this substantiates this.

I have not heard anything that indicates that the rods are badly damaged or melted.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
32. Here:
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:46 AM
Oct 2013

Mark Willacy, ABC News (Australia), Oct. 31, 2013: Hidden inside the twisted remains of the Fukushima reactor 4 building, and perched precariously 5 stories above the ground, is Japan’s worst nuclear nightmare. It’s a deep pool holding 1,300 used fuel assemblies [...] Tepco is finally ready to start removing this 400 tons of highly radioactive fuel.

ABC’s Interview with Yale Professor Charles Perrow, author of recent article in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientist about Tepco’s upcoming attempt to remove fuel from the Unit 4 pool: “This has me very scared.” He warned that one slip-up with the removal of this highly radioactive fuel could trigger a chain reaction. “Tokyo would have to be evacuated because cesium, and other poisons that are there, will spread very rapidly. Even if the wind is blowing the other way, it’s going to be monumental


Locations and condition of melted Fukushima fuel unknown — Mainichi: 450 tons of scattered radioactive rods… unknown where holes in reactors are… plans may be delayed
combomelt
June 11, 2013 at 11:30 am Log in to Reply
1496 rods in each core.
Each rod weighs approx 300k
Thats 448800k
Or
204000lbs in each core

At 500 degrees C, Zircalloy mixes with steam to produce hydrogen.
Nuclear fuel (UO2) melted at 2865 degrees C.
The temperature of molten fuel may have reached 5000 degrees C.
The weight of fuel in Reactors1,2,&3 was 219 tons.
But the weight of the molten fuel on the bottom floor of Containments1,2,&3 included the mass of control rods, and lots of stainless steel, and the total weight of Corium1,2,&3 could easily have been 450 tons. By the time the corium exited Buildings1,2,&3, many tons of concrete and steel may have been added to the mass of the corium.




longship

(40,416 posts)
33. Well, that's talking about the rods in the reactor core, I think.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:54 AM
Oct 2013

They know that those have likely melted. As far as I've heard, the rods in the spent fuel pools have not melted. As I wrote above, I do not think they'd want to remove them if they were.

Still, this is all very scary.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
37. TEPCO Admits Damage To Unit 4 Fuel And Pool; IAEA Letter Confirms Pool Fire At Fukushima 4 in 2011
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 02:49 PM
Oct 2013

TEPCO Admits Damage To Unit 4 Fuel And Pool
http://www.fukuleaks.org/web/?p=11625

IAEA Letter Confirms Pool Fire At Fukushima 4 in 2011
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101675165

longship

(40,416 posts)
40. Well, they are still going to have to deal with them.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 04:18 PM
Oct 2013

Again. If there is another earthquake and the cooling pool collapses, that would be extraordinarily terrible. What is the risk of attempting to remove the rods? I don't know that. I'll bet nobody here does either.

But I am sure that there are many jaundiced eyes on what's happening. I presume with all the bad publicity nobody's trusting TEPCO. The current government now has that position, too. A good thing, IMHO. TEPCO has acted horribly from the beginning.

I only hope that whatever is done will have oversight from experts. I would be much more comfortable if there were prominent and open international observers as part of any plan. To oversee and to publicly release their opinions and findings.

Transparency is what is needed above all. That would help stifle some of the bizarre claims being made.

Thanks for your reply.

ruffburr

(1,190 posts)
7. This IS Scary Shit-
Wed Oct 30, 2013, 10:15 PM
Oct 2013

Like world bite your nails scary, One slip and all hell could break loose, A not so funny twist on Trick or Treat.

 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
8. As with Apollo 11, people would be on seat's edge...
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 12:05 AM
Oct 2013

...if they realized what's about to be attempted.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
14. I hope they get this shit done rather then sitting around talking about it while picking their asses
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 05:34 AM
Oct 2013

It's been 2 1/2 years and that place is still a nightmare. Last I heard it was going to be like 20-30 years before the plant is decommissioned

Johnny Ready

(203 posts)
16. The rods were set by computer programs, but now they will have to be removed manually
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:59 AM
Oct 2013

that is the one factor i hope does not make a difference in the outcome. Have you ever tried to operate a crane, accidents do happen. The person(s) in the crane(s) will be the most important person in the world. i hope they are Ready.

MineralMan

(146,325 posts)
17. Keep your fingers crossed, folks.
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:10 AM
Oct 2013

This is a very important and difficult process, but it really must be done.

librechik

(30,676 posts)
28. I understand the operation will take about a year
Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:28 AM
Oct 2013

that's a long time to hold one's breath, but under the circumstances, I recommend it.

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