General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFukushima Update: Fuel Rods to Be Removed from Pool at Nuclear Plant
TOKYO -- Japanese regulators on Wednesday gave final approval for the removal of fuel rods from an uncontained cooling pool at a damaged reactor building considered the highest risk at a crippled nuclear plant.
Removing the fuel rods from the Unit 4 cooling pool is the first major step in a decommissioning process that is expected to last decades at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant, where three reactors melted down after the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami.
The Nuclear Regulation Authority said at its weekly meeting that the proposal by the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co., is appropriate and that the removal can start in November as planned.
"It's a major step toward decommissioning," said Toyoshi Fuketa, one of the authority's five commissioners. "Moving the fuel rods out of Unit 4 can significantly reduce the risk at the plant."
The Unit 4 reactor was offline when the plant was hit by the disasters, but the building was damaged by hydrogen explosions and fire. Fuel rods in the pool, however, have since been properly cooled and are safe enough to remove, officials said.
TEPCO has reinforced the structure around the pool and says the Unit 4 building can survive a major earthquake, but the unenclosed pool on the unit's top floor, which contains 1,533 fuel rods, has caused international concern. About 200 of the rods that are unused and safer are expected to be the first to be removed.
The Unit 4 cooling pool has attracted international attention in part because early in the crisis it was suspected to have dried up, when in fact there was enough water to cover the rods, keeping them from melting. TEPCO last year plucked two unused fuel rod units out of the pool and said no major corrosion or damage was found in them.
More at: http://www.weather.com/news/science/environment/fukushima-fuel-rods-removed-20131030
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)madrchsod
(58,162 posts)a very brave person or they have a death wish
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Last edited Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:18 AM - Edit history (1)
Computers control a rod withdraw from a regular functioning, undamaged reactor pile.
What they are doing is the equivent of pulling a bent melted rod from a smashed box of cigarttes poised on a multi-story, wobbling structure and doing it manually .
They are deadmen.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)Chicago, 1942, something tells me they didn't use computers then.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/28/japan.nuclear.plutonium/
longship
(40,416 posts)And that's ignoring that it's radioactive.
TEPCO has acted horribly in this affair. And they did not even save face. (So to speak.)
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...the little I got, I've shared since learning about the MOX fuel.
Release of plutonium isotopes into the environment from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant accident: what is known and what needs to be known
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es402212v
Here's info in a form for non-scientist stupid people like me:
Study: High plutonium-241 activity detected over 30 kilometers from Fukushima plant Additional research suggests long-distance transport of plutonium
http://enenews.com/study-high-plutonium-241-activity-detected-30-kilometers-fukushima-plant
Then there's this:
DOE-STD-1128-98
Guide of Good Practices for Occupational Radiological Protection in Plutonium Facilities
EXCERPT...
4.2.3 Characteristics of Plutonium Contamination
There are few characteristics of plutonium contamination that are unique. Plutonium
contamination may be in many physical and chemical forms. (See Section 2.0 for the many
potential sources of plutonium contamination from combustion products of a plutonium fire
to radiolytic products from long-term storage.) [font color="red"]The one characteristic that many believe is
unique to plutonium is its ability to migrate with no apparent motive force. Whether from
alpha recoil or some other mechanism, plutonium contamination, if not contained or
removed, will spread relatively rapidly throughout an area. [/font color]
SOURCE (PDF file format): http://www.hss.doe.gov/nuclearsafety/techstds/docs/standard/DOE-STD-1128-2008.pdf
Even the most minute amounts, plutonium contamination means death to innocent people.
longship
(40,416 posts)First, Plutonium is very massive. It has an atomic weight higher than any natural element on earth. Therefore, it does not travel easily. If there is plutonium release at Fukushima Daiichi it will likely stay close to Fukushima Daiichi.
I don't know where you are getting your information but I will have to look at your citations before I comment further.
I'll be back with you.
BTW, I take great exception to your characterization of "secret science". Science is an open enterprise, practiced by academics who only advance by publishing their work in publications available to anybody. (Granted, some with subscription, but certainly NOT secret.) if science was secret, science would not work.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...and in other areas deemed of interest to national security. GOOGLE Sidney Gottlieb for an example of one secret scientist.
bananas
(27,509 posts)A lot of science is classified for national security reasons.
A lot of science is done by corporations and categorized as "trade secrets". Scientists have to sign non-disclosure agreements when they work on these projects.
A lot of science doesn't get published or distributed - "negative results don't get published". Doctors got pissed off about this and started filing FOIA requests with the FDA to find out why patients were having serious side effects and not responding to new drugs - turns out the FDA would allow corporations to keep running trials until they got a positive result, and then pretend that the previous trials never happened - totally skewing the statistics.
A lot of scientific journals place restrictions on use and distribution of their articles.
Just last year, scientists petitioned Obama to allow open access to taxpayer-funded research: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1228&pid=7060
longship
(40,416 posts)Yes, there is private science. And yes, some is secret by govt mandate.
But a vast proportion of science is academic, not private. The journals, many subscription only, are available to anybody who pays for subscription. That's not secret. Saying it is does not make it so.
There are two movements in science which may change this dynamic. First, is to open publish all government funded research. Second, is to establish peer reviewed journals that are freely available to everybody.
The Internet is helping with these efforts. The dead tree journals are undoubtedly having problems sustaining their printed media in the Internet age.
Those of us wishing science to be more open support such efforts because science works best when it's transparent.
But I accept your points, albeit with qualifications. Most science is published.
When it comes to things like Fukushima, openness is in everybody's best interest. What I've seen is that there are some sources which are open. I've also seen a lot of fear mongering based on rubbish. Openness is the solution to that, too.
Thank you for your responses.
longship
(40,416 posts)Takes me to a redirect which takes me to the general Web site, not the document.
I work from an iPhone (all I have here). Please update the link for me.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...here's the updated Gov address:
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/09/f2/DOE-STD-1128-2008.pdf
PDF still on Waybac Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111021160059/http://hss.doe.gov/nuclearsafety/techstds/docs/standard/DOE-STD-1128-2008.pdf
Original: http://www.hss.doe.gov/nuclearsafety/techstds/docs/standard/DOE-STD-1128-2008.pdf
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am eagerly awaiting the first asshat who mentions "bananas".
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)in the navy before I ended up on Admiral's staff. After all I would like to retire to Japan. I am just not optomistic.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I have a friend that was a Nuclear engineer in the navy and who is into kendo. He is a 5-dan, having been promoted to the rank in Japan -so needless to say, he is very, very good.
He lives here in Japan now.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Course I am only a 2nd Dan. He's lucky bastard to live in Japan.
I despise the US.
I do hope it Fukishima goes well. But down deep I feel like I am watching a slow train wreck.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)I practically have a front-row seat to this drama.
What I'm wondering is, where are they going to put these rods? I'm thinking one or more abandoned mines in the Tohoku region, but that would then entail land transport over roads that might not be in such great condition.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)to put them. It will go terribly wrong way before that.
I hope it won't, but the whole structure is a tangled collapse waiting to happen.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)They have to do this. It is risky, but the risk of not doing it is likely much, much greater. Another earthquake could collapse the building and then there would be real hell to pay.
I wish them well.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)and under it. Either that or freeze the ground. It would be a fortutune but no where near the disaster their going to have.
longship
(40,416 posts)I am a little out of my element on this, but I think the cores have melted down. I don't know what that means regarding a sarcophagus solution, but it is something to consider.
Freezing does not seem to be a very good long term solution to me. And make no mistake, that's what is needed here.
I think the best solution is to get the stuff out of there and put it where it will do no more harm.
It is a very tough problem.
I am afraid that those fuel rods in the spent fuel pool have to be removed. There is no other choice here. Another earthquake could collapse the damaged reactor building and then there'd be a very real hell to pay.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Freezing or injecting the concrete into the ground. In order to stabilze the water soaked ground. Which at this point is almost quicksand-like as far as structurally.
In a clean reactor with everything functioning they use computers to pull a rod out of a pile.
Here you have a mass of bent, broken, melted rods smashed together on top of a wobbling multi-story structure, which they plan on pulling apart manually.
...sounds like one of those old Irwin Allen Disaster movies come to life.
longship
(40,416 posts)I think they know that they are NOT bent, broken, or melted. Or at least not likely bent, broken, or melted. Otherwise, I do not think their removal would be possible. Just the fact that they are apparently going to try this substantiates this.
I have not heard anything that indicates that the rods are badly damaged or melted.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Mark Willacy, ABC News (Australia), Oct. 31, 2013: Hidden inside the twisted remains of the Fukushima reactor 4 building, and perched precariously 5 stories above the ground, is Japans worst nuclear nightmare. Its a deep pool holding 1,300 used fuel assemblies [...] Tepco is finally ready to start removing this 400 tons of highly radioactive fuel.
ABCs Interview with Yale Professor Charles Perrow, author of recent article in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientist about Tepcos upcoming attempt to remove fuel from the Unit 4 pool: This has me very scared. He warned that one slip-up with the removal of this highly radioactive fuel could trigger a chain reaction. Tokyo would have to be evacuated because cesium, and other poisons that are there, will spread very rapidly. Even if the wind is blowing the other way, its going to be monumental
Locations and condition of melted Fukushima fuel unknown Mainichi: 450 tons of scattered radioactive rods
unknown where holes in reactors are
plans may be delayed
combomelt
June 11, 2013 at 11:30 am Log in to Reply
1496 rods in each core.
Each rod weighs approx 300k
Thats 448800k
Or
204000lbs in each core
At 500 degrees C, Zircalloy mixes with steam to produce hydrogen.
Nuclear fuel (UO2) melted at 2865 degrees C.
The temperature of molten fuel may have reached 5000 degrees C.
The weight of fuel in Reactors1,2,&3 was 219 tons.
But the weight of the molten fuel on the bottom floor of Containments1,2,&3 included the mass of control rods, and lots of stainless steel, and the total weight of Corium1,2,&3 could easily have been 450 tons. By the time the corium exited Buildings1,2,&3, many tons of concrete and steel may have been added to the mass of the corium.
longship
(40,416 posts)They know that those have likely melted. As far as I've heard, the rods in the spent fuel pools have not melted. As I wrote above, I do not think they'd want to remove them if they were.
Still, this is all very scary.
bananas
(27,509 posts)TEPCO Admits Damage To Unit 4 Fuel And Pool
http://www.fukuleaks.org/web/?p=11625
IAEA Letter Confirms Pool Fire At Fukushima 4 in 2011
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101675165
longship
(40,416 posts)Again. If there is another earthquake and the cooling pool collapses, that would be extraordinarily terrible. What is the risk of attempting to remove the rods? I don't know that. I'll bet nobody here does either.
But I am sure that there are many jaundiced eyes on what's happening. I presume with all the bad publicity nobody's trusting TEPCO. The current government now has that position, too. A good thing, IMHO. TEPCO has acted horribly from the beginning.
I only hope that whatever is done will have oversight from experts. I would be much more comfortable if there were prominent and open international observers as part of any plan. To oversee and to publicly release their opinions and findings.
Transparency is what is needed above all. That would help stifle some of the bizarre claims being made.
Thanks for your reply.
ruffburr
(1,190 posts)Like world bite your nails scary, One slip and all hell could break loose, A not so funny twist on Trick or Treat.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Wilms
(26,795 posts)...if they realized what's about to be attempted.
Rhiannon12866
(205,857 posts)Thanks for posting this... It is important news.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It's been 2 1/2 years and that place is still a nightmare. Last I heard it was going to be like 20-30 years before the plant is decommissioned
Johnny Ready
(203 posts)that is the one factor i hope does not make a difference in the outcome. Have you ever tried to operate a crane, accidents do happen. The person(s) in the crane(s) will be the most important person in the world. i hope they are Ready.
MineralMan
(146,325 posts)This is a very important and difficult process, but it really must be done.
librechik
(30,676 posts)that's a long time to hold one's breath, but under the circumstances, I recommend it.