A question for people in the South.

[pnwmom]

Last edited Tue Oct 29, 2013, 11:12 PM - Edit history (2)

My relatives live in a Southern city where two of the high schools are named after Confederate war generals -- and one of the school's nicknames' is "the Rebels." It's hard for me to believe that doesn't say something about the city and the people who go along with keeping those names. How do African American students feel about attending those schools? Is there some worthwhile goal achieved by celebrating those names?

What's the liberal rationalization for continuing to name schools and other public buildings after the generals who led the fight for slavery and against the Union? (One of these schools was built in the 1970's; I don't know about the other.)

My relatives don't have an answer for this. Does anyone?

This is from an article about naming schools -- specifically about naming them after Martin Luther King.


http://web.utk.edu/~dalderma/mlkstreet/mlkschools_urbangeog.pdf

SCHOOL NAMES AS CULTURAL ARENAS: THE NAMING OF U.S. PUBLIC SCHOOLS AFTER MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.1

Derek H. Alderman2 Department of Geography East Carolina University
Schools play an important role in shaping the collective memory and historical identity of their students and the attendant community. While accomplished directly through school curriculum development and the teaching of history per se, student conceptions of the past are also shaped indirectly through the commemorative activities and symbols woven into the everyday fabric of the school (e.g., school holidays, programs, bulletin boards). The naming of schools after historical figures is a subtle yet powerful way of communicating “the accomplishments of previous generations” and defining a set of folk heroes (Goldstein, 1978, p. 119). By merging history and the physical environment, place names and other spatial commemorations work to reify certain visions of the past, giving them legitimacy and identification with the natural order of things (Azarayahu, 1996).

[giftedgirl77]

1. The lake here on the border is named

Strom Thurmond & a high school as well right here in South Carolina. We just settled here & I have wondered the same thing as I also pass 3 separate confederate flag monuments on my commute to work.

[pnwmom]

3. Yes -- flying the confederate flags is the same thing. n/t

[giftedgirl77]

9. I've suggested using a flame thrower or

a similar device to get rid of them but my husband seems to frown on me doing shit like that. People here seem to just let it slide, I just got my disability ratings back from the military. I'm going to have a lot of extra time on my hands, I plan on stirring the pot. Especially when it comes to that ass Joe Wilson.

[pnwmom]

12. Stay safe, giftedgirl77 -- while you're stirring the pot!

[giftedgirl77]

15. Always safe, but always working to change things

for the better. I have 2 boys 15 & 11 that have to live in this place

[dawg]

36. That lake used to be Clark Hill Lake.

They renamed it after Strong Thermos around the time Russell Lake was constructed.

As far as I'm concerned, it will always be Clark Hill Lake.

[giftedgirl77]

63. On the South Carolina side it is still Clarks Hill

on the GA side it's Strom Thurmond. Guess that speaks volumes in itself...

[dawg]

64. No it doesn't.

I'm am on the Georgia side. We still call it Clarks Hill too.

It was South Carolina that insisted on the name change.

[giftedgirl77]

65. Well then I stand corrected...

My bad..

[GoCubsGo]

48. Hi, neighbor!

It all depends on which side of the border one lives. On the Georgia side, it's still Clarks Hill Reservoir. I live on the SC side, and I refuse to call it Lake Thurmond.

A friend of mine went to Sperm Thurmond HS. He's actually a good lefty, as is the rest of his family. I am acquainted with a teacher there, as well. She is a progressive, from what I'm gathering. In fact, just this evening, she and I were just discussing how Columbia is actually fairly progressive compared to here. Not a bad place to go if you need some relief from the knuckle-draggers around here. Lots to do there.

[giftedgirl77]

66. Hello to you as well

We are in Aiken & run in to our fair share of liberals as well. I tend to be more on the side of raging hippie so I stand out a bit more & really don't seem to have any problems with the people around here. Before we bought our house here we were down in Evans GA which wasn't really that bad either.

During election season last year I wrote all kinds of different slogans all over my car and wasn't shot at once

[GoCubsGo]

67. Wow! We really are neighbors!

Another Aikenite on DU! Yay! Been here since late 1987. Trying to get the hell out.

I'm surprised nobody vandalized your car. There are some real loonies here, although you mostly hear from them when they write into the Aiken Substandard. If you haven't read it yet, you might not want to. Not worth the pulp it's printed on, and nothing but right-wing hate and stupidity, with the occasional column by Leonard Pitts or Eugene Robinson. Just the other day, some idiot referred to the Civil Act as "horrid". Some mornings that rag is unreadable.

Yeah, there are some lefties, here, but not enough of us to purge the joint of the Joe Wilsons. At least we have him. Before redistricting, it was Jeff Duncan. He is batcrap crazy.

[giftedgirl77]

71. Wow, crazy small world

We actually bought a house here in January. Both were military, I will be out 18 Dec with 100%. disability. My hubby has just under 4 years left. Our hearts are actually up in the Northwest we want to settle up in Portland, but we have a sophomore in high school (Aiken) & a 6th grader who have moved 7 times in 9 yrs plus my dad is on round 3 of cancer in Florida, so SC it is for a while.

We actually live in a small little neighborhood that is very diverse & the little league coach didn't flip out when my son told him praying before games wasn't his thing. My son told him he would wait in the dugout but the coach just nixed it instead.

It's nice to meet you neighbor

[blueridge3210]

2. How old are the schools?

Societal attitudes have changed greatly. New buildings probably wouldn't be named the same, but people would be reluctant to change an already named building. (Exception: my elementary school's first name was geographical - Lake ******; later renamed after the first principal of the school)

[pnwmom]

4. As I said, one was built in the 70's - the other I don't know.

But most of the city isn't that old.

[GP6971]

45. But not for the

military. Last I checked there were 11 major military installations named after confederate generals/notable people

[Hoyt]

5. Is it a city that elects liberals, or just another Southern city that elects right wing bigots?

[pnwmom]

7. It's a weird mixture.

It's mostly conservative, but they were surprisingly supportive when a leading politico turned out to be gay. Of course, they didn't find out till he'd left office . ..

[Hoyt]

13. In my state, the last Democratic governor got beat mostly over a confederate flag.

Like many such Democrats, he was pretty conservative otherwise (but much better than the Republicans solidly in power).

[blueridge3210]

25. Have to disagree with you Hoyt.

Roy Barnes' re-election loss was more influenced by his support for ending "teacher tenure" than the antics of the "Flaggots" (Neal Boortz' term, not mine). Bit of a misnomer; teachers didn't have tenure; the only rule was that if a teacher had been offered 3 or more contracts the administrator had to justify not offering a new contract. Any administrator doing their job would have documentation of enough poor performance to justify that action.

[Hoyt]

35. Sorry, there are more bigots than teachers. Of course, based upon some I had,

a number of teachers were ticked at Barnes for both. Sorry, I do not quote Boortz, he got his start writing racist speeches for racist Lester Maddox.

I suppose teachers were happier with Republicans.

[NightWatcher]

6. Shit, here there's a school named after a big muckety muck of the klan

Sure he was also a confederate general, but damn, the first klan grand wizard

Nathan Bedford Forest High School in Jax, Fl

[pnwmom]

10. If that were my kids' school, I'd be out there protesting.

You'd think there'd be some liberal parents around to fight that.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

17. He was more than merely the first Grand Wizard

The Fort Pillow Massacre:

Forrest's men insisted that the Federals, although fleeing, kept their weapons and frequently turned to shoot, forcing the Confederates to keep firing in self-defense.[32] Confederates said the Union flag was still flying over the fort, which indicated that the force had not formally surrendered. A contemporary newspaper account from Jackson, Tennessee, stated that "General Forrest begged them to surrender," but "not the first sign of surrender was ever given." Similar accounts were reported in many Southern newspapers at the time.[33]
These statements, however, were contradicted by Union survivors, as well as the letter of a Confederate soldier who recounted a massacre. Achilles Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee cavalry, wrote to his sister immediately after the battle: "The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."[34]
Ulysses S. Grant, in his Personal Memoirs, says of the incident: "These troops fought bravely, but were overpowered. I will leave Forrest in his dispatches to tell what he did with them. 'The river was dyed,' he says, 'with the blood of the slaughtered for two hundred yards. The approximate loss was upward of five hundred killed, but few of the officers escaping. My loss was about twenty killed. It is hoped that these facts will demonstrate to the Northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with Southerners.' Subsequently Forrest made a report in which he left out the part which shocks humanity to read."[35]

[tnlefty]

19. I read something about that school a couple of weeks ago

and I was shocked. That school IIRC is 80 to 90% African American students...blew my mind.

I'll look around but I don't think there are any Nathan Bedford Forest schools in TN. Where I would expect them to be.

[Sissyk]

37. No schools.

Just that awful statue of him right on I65. But, it's private property and that idiot is allowed to erect what he wants there.

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. OH that's right! I forgot about that...

disclaimer...ex-husband from Jacksonville.

[LibDemAlways]

61. Remember former Virginia Senator George "Macaca" Allen?

He named his only son Forrest. Coincidence? Not likely. His daughters are Brooke and Tyler, also names of prominent Confederate generals.

[madokie]

8. I think most people today have simply moved on

Its part of our history and it doesn't have to define us today. My grandfather fought as a Union soldier even though he was born and raised in Georgia. Because he felt it was the right thing to do.

[pnwmom]

11. What do you think about the poster who said their school is named

after a KKK leader (who became a general)?

Should that person still have the honor of a school named after him? That black kids no doubt attend?

[giftedgirl77]

23. Strom Thrumond High here is a

predominately black school. WTF was my first reaction as well, a lot of it I think is just the idea of this is just the way it is.

[madokie]

27. I don't think any controversial person should have a school named after them

especially a person who was a member of the kkk.

[pnwmom]

38. I think part of the reason for the disconnect and hurt feelings

between northern and southern DUers is that when northerners visit the south, it's often a shock to see so many visible signs honoring the confederacy and racist figures. So we may make false assumptions about the people who are living there. If they don't agree with these people being honored, why aren't they making a fuss?

From the responses here, it sounds like liberal southerners, at least white ones, basically ignore this stuff in order to peacefully coexist. But what does that do to African Americans living in the south? What is just background noise to white southerners might be a continuing slap in the face to black people. When do we stop honoring people who never should have been honored?


http://web.utk.edu/~dalderma/mlkstreet/mlkschools_urbangeog.pdf

SCHOOL NAMES AS CULTURAL ARENAS: THE NAMING OF U.S. PUBLIC SCHOOLS AFTER MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.1

Derek H. Alderman2 Department of Geography East Carolina University
Schools play an important role in shaping the collective memory and historical identity of their students and the attendant community. While accomplished directly through school curriculum development and the teaching of history per se, student conceptions of the past are also shaped indirectly through the commemorative activities and symbols woven into the everyday fabric of the school (e.g., school holidays, programs, bulletin boards). The naming of schools after historical figures is a subtle yet powerful way of communicating “the accomplishments of previous generations” and defining a set of folk heroes (Goldstein, 1978, p. 119). By merging history and the physical environment, place names and other spatial commemorations work to reify certain visions of the past, giving them legitimacy and identification with the natural order of things (Azarayahu, 1996).

[dsc]

82. actually he was a general who became a Klan leader

[pnwmom]

83. But shouldn't having been a KKK leader disqualified him from the honor?

[dsc]

108. of course

actually his conduct as a general should have as well, I was just correcting the order.

[bobGandolf]

113. Most people probably have moved on...

and don't have the "time" to deal with that.

"Time" should be made by the people who live in those areas. What we allow, speaks volumes.

[pnwmom]

115. I agree. And names matter. n/t

[supernova]

14. It was popular in the pre civil rights era

for the white majority to name public spaces after Confederate soldiers. After the CRA not so much, but during that time it flourished again as a form of white protest. If a building was named under that rubric in the early 70s, clearly some racists were on the governing board who had the building constructed. The Confederacy is very much a backdrop here. You can't walk the South without running into it. Confederate dead at the graveyard at church, General Lee statue in the town square. The battlefield at the edge of town. The uniform that great grandad wore.

As for leaving the names hanging around, what would you like to do? If we change the names to something less charged, after a while people forget their history. That's a double-edged sword. You want to forget the Confederacy, fine. But while you do that, people rise up again and start the same problems. Again.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. Which is how they got Confederate Memorial Day!

Yes my Liberal friends....because White people in the South were insulted by Martin Luther King having a Federal holiday named after him....they responded with Confederate Memorial Day. One of the most shocking things I discovered living in the South. They actually get that as a state holiday in several Southern states! They also hold shindigs celebrating the Confederacy by dressing up and hiring Black people to portray Slaves and Minstrels....But never mind those...Not racist at all! Oh yeah I forgot....KKK museums! Don't miss those on your next trip down!

[Blue_Tires]

70. In elementary school, I remember "Lee-Jackson-King Day" all too well...

[VanillaRhapsody]

72. No....this is a different day...Confederate Memorial Day is separate from MLK day...

this was in direct response...and it STATE wide. ALL govt offices are closed that day.

[LannyDeVaney]

16. Great question

My wife went to a school named after Robert E. Lee. They tore it down and built a brand new one ... planned on changing the name. (It is a predominantly African-American school now, btw, in a primarily African-American community. In fact, only about 3 miles from a historically African-American University). There was a huge outcry from the community about changing the name. I believe, even to the local community, they had grown to identify with the school and changing the name would have removed that.

One aside - my oldest son goes to a private school and they played a team called the "Rebels" this past weekend - their logo was the old Mississippi "rebel" that Ole Miss used to have on their helmets. So that "sort of thing" is still VERY prevalent in the schools around here.

So, I certainly can't answer your question other than to say I've seen examples where folks (not necessarily liberal, but folks who might seem to want a change for the reasons you mentioned) simply identify with the school, it's tradition, history, etc... and don't want it to change.

Edit - I just remembered, the new school was build on Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd.

[pnwmom]

46. Welcome to DU, LannyDeVaney!

[Journeyman]

18. The Federal Government has two major military bases named after Confederate Generals . . .

Fort Bragg, in North Carolina, home to the U.S. Army Forces Command and U.S. Army Reserve Command, as well as U.S. Army Airborne and Special Forces, was named in 1919 in honor of Confederate General Braxton Bragg.

Fort Benning, in Georgia, home to the United States Army Armor School, United States Army Infantry School, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (formerly known as the School of the Americas), was named after Brigadier General Henry L. Benning, CSA, in 1922.

There are others.

[leftstreet]

20. Fort Hood, Fort Gordon

There are about a dozen if I recall correctly

[Adam-Bomb]

43. There you go.

More posts than not are named after Confederate Generals.

Fort Lee, Fort Hood, Fort Bliss, Fort Jackson, Fort Gordon....those are just off the
top of my head.

[Art_from_Ark]

53. Fort Jackson is named for Andrew Jackson, not Stonewall

[CherokeeDem]

21. The high school I attended

was Wade Hampton High School in Greenville, SC. Named after a Confederate war general, and for a long time, our mascot was a student dressed in a Confederate dress uniform (complete with cape) riding a white horse. However, the most beloved and popular student was a black guy. We were segregated before busing went into effect and to be honest, except for a teacher, I personally never saw any overt racism. Not saying it wasn't there but I never saw and was raised not to be racist.

The teacher I mentioned was a substitute in a math class, who on the morning after Martin Luther King was killed, started class (with two black students in it) by saying what a great thing had happened the night before. One of the white students ran out of the room (we later found out she went straight to the principal to tell him) while the rest of us stood up and turned our back on her. She was escorted from the room by the assistant principal and we never saw her again.

When I graduated, there were 721 students in my class, we marched into the auditorium singing We Shall Overcome. Not everyone in the South is a bigot.

As to why there are schools and the like named after these people, well, Gen Joseph Johnston was a relative of mine, so I understand to a point, but I don't personally support or revere the Civil War. It was a tragic time for North and South. To deny the war didn't happen is not realistic, but to continue the battle is not realistic either.

I have difficulty when members of this board treat those of us who grew up or live in the South as if we are equal to those who fought the Civil War for the Confederacy. We aren't. Are there still racist idiots in the South? Absolutely, but, while I know the SC of today is not the same state as when I graduated high school, I can tell you that I saw more racism in Lexington, KY when I came here to attend UK. I will wager that racism exist everywhere, the South however became the poster region for it.

There are no easy answers to your question, it's not about all people of the South being racist, or rednecks... we aren't. I think that the history of any region is part of its fabric and right or wrong it doesn't go away.

I do not and never have condoned racism and never will. But what happened, wrong as it was, was a product of the times. Those who choose to wishfully look back at those times are not only ignorant but I feel are searching for something to make them feel superior.

After all that, I didn't answer your question, because I don't believe there is an easy answer to it, or even one that would be satisfactory. I would like, for once, for people on DU not to automatically brush all of us from the Southern region of this country with the broad brush of red-necked racism.

[bluestate10]

34. I visited South Carolina on vacation a few years back after the state

voted in MLK Day. I stayed mostly on the densely populated coast. I was surprised at how race free that region was, I saw young Whites and Blacks chilling out together at restaurants and bars. I didn't see the old south until I drove inland. Largely, you're right, IMO, South Carolina seems to have changed for the better regardless of the noise from some. The state appears to now be mostly mis-directed conservative. Racism always partially find a home in staunch conservatism and does make the margin in some races, but that component of conservatism in places like South Carolina seems to be receding from my limited personal experience with a segment of the people of that state.

[Tom Ripley]

52. I also went to Wade Hampton High School in Greenvile...

or as my young nephew calls it "Weed Hampton"

[kwassa]

80. My great-grandfather was wounded trying to stop a Wade Hampton raid.

Hampton did a big circling movement around Union lines to steal a cattle herd for starving Confederate troops during the siege of Petersburg, VA, the supply point for Richmond. Hampton succeeded, but it was a very temporary victory, as the Confederates had no feed for cattle, and had to slaughter them immediately. They feasted, but were out of food again very quickly.

[arely staircase]

89. mine was captured after the surrender of Vicksburg

A poor man with no slaves fighting the rich mans war. The rich slave owners went back to their plantations and worked their former slaves as sharecroppers. My GG grandfather was basically bedridden from his war wounds and died broken physically and economically for his service to the rich.

[al_liberal]

22. From Chicago now living in HSV AL

Although I'm completely against almost everything that what goes for government in this state does, I have to admit that I'm really impressed with the school names here. True to the space heritage there are schools named for Grissom, Chaffee, White, Columbia, Challenger and the newest one Mae C. Jemison, an AL native and an African-American NASA Astronaut.

[tammywammy]

26. Rocket City indeed. n/t

[xfundy]

24. You seem to have the mistaken idea

that liberals are more than a minority in the South. If only that were so.

Also, lots of folks just go along without examining anything on their own, like Faux is making the rest of the nation.

[Tanuki]

28. Does it bother you at all that our nation's capital celebrates Christopher Columbus?

When you think of Washington, D.C., do you associate it with Columbus' legacy of enslavement and genocide of the indigenous population?

[LuvNewcastle]

114. Excellent point! Columbus has his own federal holiday, but I don't see much

outrage about that. He was as bad as any Civil War general or Klan leader. That holiday is in sore need of being abolished. It's probably too late to change all the place names, unfortunately. Honoring Columbus is a horrible insult to the Indians and any other person who knows the history about him.

[arely staircase]

29. I attended a HS called ROBERT E LEE

And many AA had great pride in that school or at least the football team. But it is time to retire that name. They used to be the Rebels. Then that was xhanged to Red Raiders in the 80s. The confederate flag was also retired about that time. Its very complicated and hard to explain but, yes it is time to move on.

[WilliamPitt]

30. The capital city of the country is named for a guy who owned slaves practically his whole life.

Bigass state out west is named for the same guy.

So. Glass houses and shit.

[cordelia]

39. Voice of reason. Thank you.

[AverageJoe90]

88. Not so much, TBH.

Washington inherited a couple hundred slaves, that much is true. But he was no pro-slavery fanatic, unlike the vast majority of the C.S.'s founding elite of the following century, and neither were Jefferson or any of the other (major, at least) Southern founders. Men like Robert Rhett certainly were. And very much so.

[Glassunion]

93. Think about what you just said.

"Washington inherited a couple hundred slaves, that much is true. But he was no pro-slavery fanatic"

Let me put it to you this way. Washington fucking owned human beings, like I own sneakers. Problem is, that if I owned a "couple hundred" pairs of sneakers, I would be considered a fanatic.

What the fuck is wrong with this place? A progressive website where slave ownership is dilluted because some fuckwits from a part of the country we like to shit on around here also owned slaves.

Here is my opinion: ONE FUCKING SLAVE IS TOO MANY!

[AverageJoe90]

95. I honestly don't understand the anger here.

Nobody here is going to argue against the fact that slavery was a highly tragic thing. Believe me, this isn't Free Republic. But some of your arguments aren't exactly airtight, TBH.

Let me put it to you this way. Washington fucking owned human beings, like I own sneakers. Problem is, that if I owned a "couple hundred" pairs of sneakers, I would be considered a fanatic.

Unfortunately, your analogy here kinda falls apart: I don't think I've ever heard of someone who'd ever inherited 200 pairs of sneakers outside of maybe the children of some sort of shoe magnate. In any case, there's no doubt that there were those Southerners who were indeed quite fanatical about supporting slavery in the Antebellum era: just look at Robert Rhett for example! But Washington wasn't one of these. Neither was Jefferson(and in fact, the latter fellow once supported a 1784 law which not only forbade slavery in the Northwest Territory but would have halted slavery's expansion beyond the Mississippi, period! It failed by just one vote: a congressman from N.J. who *had* supported the law had been out sick that day, and so he couldn't vote.)

Here is my opinion: ONE FUCKING SLAVE IS TOO MANY!

And honestly, I don't think there's anyone here on DU who would disagree with this at all. We all, in fact, *agree* on that.

[Glassunion]

116. I do not think my analogy falls apart.

George Washington was a slavery fanatic. Not all of his slaves were inherited.

Let's say that I inherited 10 pairs of shoes when I was 10 years old.
Now lets further speculate the by the time I turned 27 I had acquired an additional another 113 pairs of shoes on my own.
But that was not enough, so when I got married, my new wife brought to me an additional 153 pairs of shoes.
But I still need more shoes... So I rent another 40 pairs from my neighbor.
Then, by the time I died, there was a total of 316 pairs of shoes in my closet.

I think by any account, no matter what the "Shoes" are, be it Slaves, Shoes, Knives, Guns, Cars, Computers, iPhones, Cats, etc... The object is immaterial. If one person owns that many, they are a fanatic of one sort or another. Some fanatic collections are harmless, be it shoes, stamps, or coins. Other collections... Not so much.

To say George Washington was not a fanatic is lying to yourself. He had hundreds of slaves and that was still not enough, to the point where he had to rent more.

The reason I'm pissed is the way folks are diluting the fact that George Washington was a slave owner. I get it. We all love George Washington, father of our nation and stuff. He is a role model, he is an inspiration to folks, and when other folks start talking shit about him, it is really hard to not want to defend him. I get that. But you are only lying to yourself.

To say that "Washington inherited a couple hundred slaves, that much is true. But (here is where you are trying to downplay Washington's role in slavery) he was no pro-slavery fanatic, unlike (here is where you are elevating the role of others in slavery over that of Washington) the vast majority of the C.S.'s founding elite of the following century, and neither were Jefferson or any of the other (major, at least) Southern founders. Men like Robert Rhett certainly were. And very much so."

and

In any case, there's no doubt that there were those (here is where you are elevating the role of others in slavery over that of Washington again) Southerners who were indeed quite fanatical about supporting slavery in the Antebellum era: just look at Robert Rhett for example! But (here is where you are trying to downplay Washington's role in slavery again) Washington wasn't one of these. Neither was Jefferson(and in fact, the latter fellow once supported a 1784 law which not only forbade slavery in the Northwest Territory but would have halted slavery's expansion beyond the Mississippi, period! It failed by just one vote: a congressman from N.J. who *had* supported the law had been out sick that day, and so he couldn't vote.) - You are right, however you omit the fact that Jefferson owned a few hundred slaves himself. So don't try to elude that he was somehow fighting for civil rights or anything. You fail to mention that the White House was packed full of his slaves at the same time he was supporting that law.

To me it would seem that what you are doing is downplaying Washington's role in slavery and elevating it in others in order to dilute the fact that Washington somehow deserves less scorn than those you are comparing him to. Washington, Lee, Davis, Forrest, Jackson, Hancock, Jefferson, etc... They are all equal. And all deserve the exact same respect.

[AverageJoe90]

117. The problem is, is that this isn't nearly as simplistic as you're making it out to be.

To say George Washington was not a fanatic is lying to yourself.

You have a rather simplistic & broad definition of "fanatic", Glass, and that is kind of problematic.

(here is where you are trying to downplay Washington's role in slavery)

Not at all. Simply relaying the facts, that's all.

here is where you are elevating the role of others in slavery over that of Washington

Again, merely relaying the facts: Washington & Jefferson both were against the expansion of slavery westward. Those aren't

You are right, however you omit the fact that Jefferson owned a few hundred slaves himself. You fail to mention that the White House was packed full of his slaves at the same time he was supporting that law.

It's kind of common knowledge at this point, so I didn't feel it was necessary.

So don't try to elude that he was somehow fighting for civil rights or anything.

I wasn't.

To me it would seem that what you are doing is downplaying Washington's role in slavery and elevating it in others

Again, there's no downplaying involved. He really didn't have that large of a role compared to others.....

They are all equal.

And this is where the problem lies; this, I'm afraid, belies your lack of understanding of the complexities of American history. Yes, Washington Jefferson and Madison ALL owned slaves that they inherited. Okay? That remains a fact. But to put them on an equal level with men such as Jefferson Davis, Nathan Forrest, Robert Rhett, etc., not only speaks to what I have said above but frankly smacks of historical revisionism as well, even if not intentionally.

[Glassunion]

120. Really?

Yes, they all owned slaves. Fact.
Yes, they all inherited slaves. Fact.

You are leaving out that they also bought and sold slaves. Their incomes relied heavily on the purchase and involuntary servitude of human beings.

There is nothing complex about it. Did they or did they not completely ruin the lives of thousands of human beings for nothing more than profit? Did they not just simply buy a human when they needed one? Was their life enriched on the forced labor of other human beings? Yes or no?

You can look at all of the great deeds these men did. And believe it, I do recognize the great deeds these men did. However it is all sullied by their other actions. If these were such great men then answer me as to why they owned slaves? This is not historical revisionism. It is a historical fact that they owned slaves. A shit-ton of them. That is an undeniable fact.

You can sugar coat it all you want, but it does not do well to downplay their role in slavery. I do not know how I can stress this any further. I am descended from slaves. My family was bought, and sold amongst the likes of George Washington and Jefferson Davis via men like Forrest. Does it really matter who swings the whip? Really?

[AverageJoe90]

121. Okay, but I feel some things should be clarified on my end.

This is not historical revisionism. It is a historical fact that they owned slaves. A shit-ton of them. That is an undeniable fact.

That's not quite what I meant; what I was referring to as sounding like historical revisionism was your assertion that ALL of the men you mentioned had an EQUAL role in slavery; this doesn't quite stack up with historical fact. Yes, again, we both understand that they all owned slaves; I never once denied that in fact. But again, their role in slavery is not at all 100% equal as you assert. For one example, Jefferson & Washington sought to impede the expansion of slavery....men such as Robert Rhett wanted it expanded.

For another historical argument, we can compare Vladimir Lenin and Adolf Hitler; yes, both men got into power thru non-democratic means. Though, Lenin, for all his faults, actually DID genuinely desire to improve the lot of the Russian people, and wasn't actually the genocidal mass murderer of Christians that he was made out to be(mainly by psycho right-wingers in the U.S., including Nazi apologists on the far-right, i.e. Pat Buchanan). Hitler, on the other hand, was a power-hungry madman whose rampage destroyed most of Europe, enslaved millions, and was responsible for millions more deaths, including the 12-18 million people who were murdered in the Holocaust. Of course, the gulf between Washington, Jefferson and Madison versus Rhett, Davis, etc. isn't as large as compared to Lenin(dictator, yes, but not quite as malevolent as made out to be by Western right agitprop sources) & Hitler(evil mass-murdering genocidal maniac).

[Glassunion]

126. Cool.

I see where you are coming from. I don't agree, but I see it none the less.

[Skip Intro]

47. Indeed. n/t

[Go Vols]

49. He didn't care much for American Indians either

he viewed Indians as a vanishing people, or at least a people who at some time in the near future would cease to exist in the United States. Indians were to either die out, migrate, or become totally assimilated.

http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1077

[Glassunion]

31. Besides complaining on the internet,

has anyone who's children attend these schools tried to have the name changed?

Thinking back, I could tell you the names of every school I attended growing up in the south, but I could not tell you who they were named after.

By saying celebrating, do they have shrines setup in the schools in honor of the school's namesake? Or is it simply a name printed on the outside of the building?

What say you about schools in the north? Or are we just trying to shit on the south here?

There are 114 schools named after slave owners in just blue states, after just searching for 5 names. What is our answer for that? I don't have one.

[pnwmom]

42. I'm guessing you searched for Presidents' names -- the ones who owned slaves

when it was still legal. That isn't comparable to naming them after Confederate generals or leaders of the KKK.

I remember when my elementary school was renamed, to great fanfare, when I was in second grade. The name was changed from some builder to "Albert Einstein."

My children's elementary school was named after a local historical figure, and there was no shrine to him. But the school handbook did have a page talking about who he was. If he'd been a member of the KKK, I'd have been fighting to get the name changed. The names on schools send a message. They matter.


http://web.utk.edu/~dalderma/mlkstreet/mlkschools_urbangeog.pdf

SCHOOL NAMES AS CULTURAL ARENAS: THE NAMING OF U.S. PUBLIC SCHOOLS AFTER MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.1

Derek H. Alderman2 Department of Geography East Carolina University
Schools play an important role in shaping the collective memory and historical identity of their students and the attendant community. While accomplished directly through school curriculum development and the teaching of history per se, student conceptions of the past are also shaped indirectly through the commemorative activities and symbols woven into the everyday fabric of the school (e.g., school holidays, programs, bulletin boards). The naming of schools after historical figures is a subtle yet powerful way of communicating “the accomplishments of previous generations” and defining a set of folk heroes (Goldstein, 1978, p. 119). By merging history and the physical environment, place names and other spatial commemorations work to reify certain visions of the past, giving them legitimacy and identification with the natural order of things (Azarayahu, 1996).

[Glassunion]

58. On a technicality slavery was legal during the civil war.

The Emancipation Proclamation was not delivered until 2 years into the war, and the 13th Amendment was not ratified until after the war.

So, George Washington, John Hanckock, etc... We're no different than Robert E Lee, Jefferson Davis, etc... They ALL owned slaves. Period. So yes... It is comparable to naming them after Confederate Generals.

My opinion, no school should be named after Washington, Davis, Lee, Hancock, etc...

Every two years every school should have a vote to change their name. If but one is offended, they can no longer carry their name... Or we should do it like sports arenas. You could have "The PNC Middle School", "Citibank High School", or "Tropicana Elementary".

Schools are for learning, the name is immaterial. They should simply have letter and number designations. GAPS-0814 - Georgia Public School District 08, Facility 14 and be done with it.

[pnwmom]

60. The Confederate Generals were fighting for the right to secede

and to own slaves after it was made illegal.

This isn't the same as anyone who owned slaves when it was legal. George Washington didn't fight a war for the purpose of owning slaves.

I don't think names are immaterial. I would rather a school not have a name than to be named in honor of someone who fought for the right to enslave people.

[Glassunion]

68. I'll repeat myself.

It was not made illegal until AFTER the civil war. Do yourself a favor and look up the dates of the civil war, then look at the date that the 13th Amendment was ratified.

Yes they were fighting to secede. That makes them assholes.
Yes they were fighting to retain slavery. That makes them super duper assholes.
Yes they owned slaves. That makes them a level of asshole that cannot be measured.

So what you are saying, is that slavery can be forgiven, if the owner of the slaves lived outside of the south. Because the only thing different from slave owning Davis and slave owning Hancock, was they were born about 400 miles apart. Both held slaves legally.

I'm saying this as a black man. How can you forgive one and not the other?

[pnwmom]

69. I agree about Hancock. But I don't agree about

George Washington and other Presidents whom we honor for other reasons.

And it isn't a question of "forgiveness." It's a question of whose name we want to honor by putting it on a school. Why would Robert E. Lee deserve such an honor?

Are you not uncomfortable with children going to schools named for people who actually fought for slavery?

[Glassunion]

73. How you qualify honor is puzzling to me.

George Washington - Owned HUNDREDS of slaves = He should have schools named after him.
Robert E Lee - Owned 60 to 70 slaves = He should not have schools named after him.
I don't get it. Both men were from the exact same county in Virgina. Both men owned slaves, yet for some reason you choose to honor one.

This will blow your mind... Look up "Washington and Lee" university, and take a peak at who it is named after and why it was named after them. One name was bestowed because of a gift of money that was obtained via slave labor, and the other simply because the man served as the president of the university. I'll let you figure out which.

Personally, I feel that ANYONE who owned slaves should not be honored. How do you feel about all the children growing up in a state, county, or city that is named after a slave owner? How about the thousands of students going to schools named after a slave owner? Let me guess, you are ok with it because he was a president. And we honor presidents differently. They are exempt from the taint that is slave ownership.

Being president does not suddenly elevate one beyond reproach. The president of this nation sits in a seat of amazing responsibility and duty. If the president fails to do the right thing, it is the same as doing the wrong thing. Lincoln knew that. Lincoln knew that abolishing slavery would divide the Union. But he had the balls to do the right thing. The 15 presidents before him did not.

You say Lee is a jerk because he fought for slavery, but Washington took the 1%'er route with slavery by rotating his slaves out of the president's home every six months in order to retain his slaves in a state where slavery was illegal. He did this to avoid claiming their residency in that state. I say both of them are jerks, because they both fought for slavery.

Be careful how far down this rabbit hole you want to go. Arlington National Cemetery is on the estate of the great granddaughter of Martha Washington, who also happened to be the wife of Robert E Lee. Do you think it is fitting that we bury our war heroes (over 300 MOH recipients), 2 presidents (Taft and Kennedy), Ted and Robert Kennedy on the estate of a man who fought for slavery? The same exact grounds where there sits the Robert E Lee memorial... No shit, look it up. President Kennedy a man who died while fighting for civil rights in this country, is interred not 250 feet from the National memorial to the man who fought for slavery. Don't forget (with just Lee), besides renaming schools, we need to rename that road that runs from NY to CA, Sandblast several monuments, bust out a couple of stained glass windows at the National Cathedral, rename a shit-ton of counties, chisel away at some stuff at New York University, and level a chapel... Then the world will be set right as far as Lee goes.

I'll break it down, nice and simple... BOTH men owned slaves. BOTH men are assholes for that regardless of their other life accomplishments. It just seems to me that you are cherry picking who should be bestowed with honor. Two men, same actions, one gets a pass... I don't understand.

[pnwmom]

75. George Washington was first President of the United States,

and he will always be honored for that -- not for owning slaves.

Robert E. Lee's main accomplishment was leading the rebellion against the U.S. -- which is not something that should be honored in a U.S. school.

[Glassunion]

76. History. You should look it up.

Robert E Lee's main accomplishment was not leading the rebellion against the US. That was the job of Jefferson Davis (Commander in Chief) , and then the job of General Samuel Cooper, who outranked both Johnstons, Beauregard, Jackson and Lee.

Do yourself a favor, and look up why Lee joined the confederacy. Was it to fight for slavery, or was it something else. While you are at it, look up what he did after the confederacy. Does it make him less of an asshole? To me... No. But no less of an asshole than the other slave owners like Washington.

Again, I get it. You feel we should honor some slave owners, just the ones you cherry pick.

[pnwmom]

77. Nothing Lee did was comparable to being President. Take a poll

of any group of children in a school named after Robert E. Lee and find out what accomplishment they think made him deserve the honor.

How do we explain continuing to have schools named after people who led the fight against the Union in order to preserve slavery?

[Glassunion]

91. Lee absolutely did something that is comparable to being president.

He owned slaves just like the president. Of course not as many, but who's counting. Either way, they are both terribly-gigantic pieces of human waste that should be paid no mind. If you wish to honor one slave master over another based on geography and job title, than so be it.

[kwassa]

81. The reason Lee says he joined the confederacy makes no difference.

Words mean nothing. Actions mean everything. Lee supported the cause of slavery, the proximate cause of the Civil War, and the reason the South went to war. Lee supported an immoral cause, in a huge way. He is not a hero, except to those who also support that cause.

The South started the war, by attacking Union facilities. It was never a war of Northern aggression.

[Glassunion]

90. You are almost 100% correct.

I do not agree that words mean nothing. Words plant the seeds of action. Other than that, I can agree 100%.

Actions do speak volumes. Like you said "Lee supported the cause of slavery." So IMO he is not worth an ounce of dog shit. That said, Washington supported the cause of slavery. So, again I feel that he is also not worth an ounce of dog shit. Neither one should be honored in any way.

[AverageJoe90]

87. And Washington freed all of his, too.

Even Jefferson, too reluctant & timid to follow in those footsteps, tragically, was no advocate of slavery's expansion and actually long feared that the country would be torn apart by that very issue if it wasn't dealt with in time.....and he was right!

And, TBH, I really do think that Robert E. Lee fought for his home state more than anything else.....but we also can't forget that the primarily White Anglo-Saxon Protestant elite of the South did in fact support secession largely in the hopes of keeping slavery alive for as long as they could.

[Glassunion]

94. Washington did not free his slaves.

When he died he was still a slave owner. It was in his will... It was actually his wife who freed them after he died. Washington was simply a greedy selfish man.

[NoOneMan]

78. He is also buried there

In Lee Chapel. His family too.

[Sissyk]

79. My hat tips to you, Glassunion!

[DirkGently]

86. ++ Well done. Nowhere in America is immune to this hypocrisy.

So another attempt to claim cultural superiority over "the South" goes to ruin.

This country was built on slavery, annihilation of native peoples, and tobacco smoke.

Plenty to be proud of too, but no one gets to toss their nose in the air and claim their little town or state is free of the sins of our past.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. Well, my son's school is named after the German immigrant who settled in the area

with other German families in 1854. (Other schools in the district are named after other families at the link)

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/hrk19

Interestingly, this family is Lyle Lovett's family tree on his mother's side. Did some serve in the Confederate Army? Yes. But then, so did my husband's ancestors; that didn't make him a bad guy (my husband that is). The couple of times I've run into Mr. Lovett; he's been very nice and his mother does a lot for the school (Klein High School).


Now, ask me about the district I attended up in the great nonracist North? The entire district was named for Indian tribes... Which could be a good thing, until you realize that the high school I attended was Chippewa Valley; home of the "Big Reds..." with a mascot that makes Chief Wahoo look serious.

Are we to remove all mentions of George Washington on schools? Thomas Jefferson?

[AverageJoe90]

96. All of my direct male ancestors were Union men.....

including some of those who'd been of Southern descent originally.

[kickitup]

33. My husband's middle name is Lee

as was his grandfather's. His grandfather was named in honor of Robert E. Lee - his first name being that of another famous Confederate. His ancestors fought for the South (we're in Kentucky so that could have gone either way as it did in my family) and that is a hard pill for him to swallow because he's just about as liberal as one can get.

I know that has nothing to do with naming public buildings, but can you imagine a person going around with the name of a Confederate general and knowing why he has it?

We also have a will from his family's papers that lists slaves, and my own ancestors on my father's side had slaves and some are buried in an old family cemetery. My husband's family also had numerous black people work for them down through the years as household help. Right now he is trying to figure out, as he does some work on his family history, what happened to the woman who practically raised his father because, as he says, "She is a part of us, too."

So I think the greater point I might be trying to make is that it is still a struggle to reconcile the past with the present and make sure everybody fits and how they fit, and I think that struggle is going on in both families like mine and on a greater scale with the region at large.

[Fawke Em]

41. Well, there are four high schools named after Reagan in California,

one in New Jersey and five in Illinois and he was the worst political figure in recent memory, given the devastation he foisted on working families.

I don't see liberals out protesting those, either.

[pnwmom]

44. Do you think naming a school after him is comparable to naming

a school after a general who fought the union for the right to keep slaves?

[WilliamPitt]

56. Ask the people in Honduras and El Salvador

For openers.

[pnwmom]

62. That might be comparable if we named schools in Honduras and El Salvador

after Reagan.

Naming schools after Confederate generals or flying Confederate flags in the South is a slap in the face to the African Americans who live there.

[quakerboy]

98. You dont think there are Hondurans in California?

California has the third most hondurans of any state, apparently.

Or Salvadorans, where California has the most of any state, 1.5% of the population? The Californian Salvadoran population is equal to almost 10% of the population of El Salvador itself.

[pnwmom]

99. I know that California is within the United States

and that any people from El Salvador or the Honduras who are here have chosen to come here, or were born here. We don't have to keep Reagan statues or signs out of the US to avoid offending any ethnic group that might have a problem with him.

Even my own. I don't like him either, but that's irrelevant. No one's putting a statue up for him in the countries my relatives came from, and no one's putting his statues in the Honduras or El Salvador.

But he was a very popular Governor in California, even though that's hard for progressives to believe, and got elected twice as President. So people in CA honor him.

[quakerboy]

102. And the confederate generals were popular

with many in the confederacy. and so they get honored there. My school had a bust of Hoover, if you can believe it. Who honors Hoover? The difference is one of degree not kind.

[pnwmom]

103. Yes they were -- because they led the war against the U.S.

in order to preserve the system of slavery. Because they defied the Federal government.

They were traitors, to put it bluntly -- not to the Confederacy, but to the Union. So why is the South still honoring them after all this time -- now that we are back to being one nation under one Federal government? Doesn't that encourage modern day rebels who are also rejecting the Federal government? During the shutdown, I happened to speak to a person from the deep South on a relative's facebook page. He supported the shutdown because he thinks the whole Federal government should be dismantled and disappear. Talking to my relative, who came from the same area, he said that is a common attitude there. Doesn't living in a place where signs and symbols of the rebellion litter the landscape encourage that attitude? It seems that the original Civil War and the current one, in which the radical Southern right led the government shutdown and an effort to default on our debts, might only be different in degree -- but the attitudes behind them are the same.

[quakerboy]

105. Im not a southerner

Closest I've really lived was southern Colorado. Which ain't real south, even if it likes to pretend.

But there is something to what you say. There seems to still be a strong current of resentment over the civil war, weird as that may be to anyone not from the area. I think it does underlie a lot of the politics and attitudes that seem to come boiling up in the southern states. Being fair, there is a fair bit of racism, and antigovernment thought in northern states as well, but its usually dressed up a little, with more dissembling and treachery, not quite as laid bare and plain to see.

In some ways, It kinda seems like Germany, after WWI, before WWII. I think there's an almost subconscious hereditary feeling in the southern states that they are still suffering under some sort of war reparations, and that they need to get the boot of the union off their neck so they can be free and prosperous again.

I dunno. I could be completely wrong. Though, it was a southerner who laid it out for me in almost as many words. And it fits what I've heard in many a conversation, and fits what I see happening in the political arena.

At the end of the day, if California is going to be proud of Reagan despite his enduring legacy of harm to our nation and murder other places, and my alma mater is going to be proud of Hoover of the hoovervilles, and we are going to continue to have one of our few national holidays honoring a mass murdering, gold hoarding, child slaving freak, I dont see where any of the rest of us have a whole lot of room to give them crap over it.

[pnwmom]

107. What you described is the way it seems to me, too.

With the difference that I don't see California honoring Reagan as the same thing.

In Congress, we're not having problems with most of the radical right/tea party coming from California. California isn't electing Federal legislators who are trying to shut down Congress and to default on U.S. debt. So we can't blame Reagan-named schools or roads or sewage plants for that.

So where do most of the tea party members of Congress come from? More than 60% from the South. No other region comes close. (Only 16% from the West.) So the question is why, after all this time, is there still such an anti-Federal government attitude there? I don't think it helps that there's this constant background noise of Civil War signs and symbols; that the leaders of the rebellion are still being held up as heroes.

FWIW, I'm not saying Reagan is a hero worth honoring -- I couldn't stand him. But that's just my opinion. The main thing is, whether or not Reagan is honored in California doesn't seem to have much to do with the problem that the radical southern right seems to have never gotten over its grievances with the Federal government.

[quakerboy]

122. But you detract from your own point.

If naming of schools was a significant portion of why the south seems to elect so many terrible lawmakers, then why would California honoring Reagan not cause a similar wave of RW Dementia in Calfornia?

[pnwmom]

123. Two reasons.

One, there are a lot more Confederate signs, statues, flags, and buildings calling to mind the Civil war in the South than there are Reagan things in California.

Two, to most people younger than I am, Reagan is just a blurry memory of a genial, horseback-riding grandfather type. (I know, it's sickening, but that's the truth.) He's not associated in people's minds with revolution. He didn't lead California in a war against the U.S. He's not a reminder to California of their "lost cause."

[Fawke Em]

125. And you believe what you read.

I live here. We are gerrymandered to death.

You hate me because I CHOOSE to live in a pretty region where we have little winter, but where I have to fight MUCH harder for my principles that you EVER have to do. You'd cut me off, deprive my fellow state citizens of income and call me stupid because YOU think YOU know what it's like where I live.

YOU have no clue.

Stop hating.

And, yes, unless you change your high school names, you're no better than we are. You're still honoring an old white fart who hurt our nation and not complaining about it.

[Fawke Em]

124. Thank you for getting and making my point.

None of us are perfect - no region, no race, no gender - none of us.

We are human and fallible. Just because there are a smattering of high schools in the South named after assholes doesn't mean we all are any more than Californians who don't protest schools named after another asshole.

[Munificence]

50. I am from the south

Maybe we should protest anything Lincoln and Jackson also, damn they sure despised and ordered the killing of a lot of Native Americans.

[flvegan]

54. Research Harvard.

Let me know what you find. No, wait...don't. I already know.

[Throd]

57. Why give the North and West a pass? All this land was stolen form the Indians at gunpoint.

Here in California, just about everywhere has been renamed by the conquering tribes that spoke Spanish or English. I think naming southern high schools after Confederate figures is weird. However, South-punching seems to be an all too popular pastime for DUers who come from regions with not exactly pristine historical backgrounds, if you bother to do some research.

[kwassa]

85. Most large California cities are named after Catholic saints.

Like St. Bakersfield.

Oh, maybe not that one.

[Aerows]

59. Yes, we really DO eat grits

with cheese for breakfast. And fried catfish.

[Glassunion]

74. And no damn "pancakes"

"Flapjacks" if you will.

[moriah]

112. Hotcakes, when I was growing up.

We didn't have grits growing up, though. My family wasn't fond of them -- oatmeal or cooked rice were the hot breakfast cereals. Granny made the absolute best biscuits, though.

[marlakay]

97. My husband loves grits

And orders it every time we are in the south...

[kwassa]

84. I took a night class located at Jeb Stuart High School

and it weirded me out to even be in a building with that name. I had no choice, it was a required course, and it happens to be a school in the liberal neighborhoods around DC, in Northern Virginia.

The school is so diverse in it's student population that National Geographic did an article on it, showing the changing demographics of America due to immigration. Virginia is one of the politically strangest states I've ever encountered, too.

[backwoodsbob]

100. why lookie here

Here is a Sherman high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Junior/Senior_High_School_%28Moro,_Oregon%29

Why do northerners honor the man responsible for more civilian deaths than any other person during the civil war?

and here,a Columbus high in Iowa

http://www.cvcatholicschools.org/columbus-catholic-high-school/

Why do you honor the man who enslaved so many Native americans?

[pnwmom]

101. Sherman was a General fighting for the United States,

not a General fighting for the rebellion and for slavery.

Why should the U.S. flag be flown everywhere but not the Confederate flag?
Same reason. We're all in the United States now -- there's no reason to celebrate the rebellion or honor the Generals who led it.

And I think that continuing to honor these people for acting against the Federal government -- littering the landscape with signs and symbols of the Civil war -- encourages the radical Southern right, who are engaging in their own rebellion against Washington.

[backwoodsbob]

104. that's interesting

* Sherman was a General fighting for the United States*

So killing civilians and burning cities is ok if it's for the USA

Bush and his cronies must have made you so proud.

[pnwmom]

106. The Confederacy fired the first shots. They got the war that they wanted.

And as far as killing civilians and burning cities, they did it, too.

Sadly, the radical Southern right still wants to tear down the Federal government. Not much appears to be changed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

Hostilities began on April 12, 1861, when Confederate forces fired upon Fort Sumter, a key fort held by Union troops in South Carolina.

[backwoodsbob]

109. saddam was killing civilians too

So Invading Iraq was ok in your book.Good to know

[pnwmom]

110. Saddam never waged war on us. We went in there and it was wrong.n/t

[moriah]

111. I don't know, none are named after 'em in Little Rock to my knowledge.

Most smaller Arkansas towns name their schools after their town. I went to Jefferson, then Williams, then Forest Heights, then did the high school tour -- Hall, Central, and Parkview. Probably the worst named school would be the one named after John McClellan, given some questionable votes regarding race/desegregation.

The Pea Ridge park and the people who like to go to it are really the only people I know who are really fond of talking about the Civil War. One coworker liked to take his metal detector out to the battlefield.

[AverageJoe90]

118. Grew in up suburban NTX myself.....

Not a R.E. Lee or Jeff Davis for miles around as far as I could see or read.

[Cannikin]

119. My Arkansas school was George Washington Carver High.

Now it is named after the city. Though I believe another AR city's school carries the name.