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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis is what airline pilots USED to know.
Got this email from a pilot friend.
This is what it was like in my day.
I retired from flying in 1999.
It's long, but maybe worth the read?
"Compare this to Asiana where the pilots can't even fly visual approaches but must use the auto-pilot. I still remember my days as a B720 Engineer listening to check pilots quizzing the Captain about peak elevations and visual landmarks. Made a big impression on me at the time----do you think the airlines even care about this stuff nowadays? I guess they think the computer will figure it out"
The Payoff
Dedicated to Frank Crismon (1903-1990)
by Capt. G. C. Kehmeier (United Airlines, Ret.)
I ought to make you buy a ticket to ride this airline!" The chief pilot's words were scalding. I had just transferred from San Francisco to Denver. Frank Crismon, my new boss, was giving me a route check between Denver and Salt Lake City.
"Any man who flies for me will know this route," he continued. "'Fourteen thousand feet will clear Kings Peak' is not adequate. You had better know that Kings Peak is exactly 13,498 feet high. Bitter Creek is not 'about 7,000 feet.' It is exactly 7,185 feet, and the identifying code for the beacon is dash dot dash.
"I'm putting you on probation for one month, and then I'll ride with you again. If you want to work for me, you had better start studying!"
Wow! He wasn't kidding! For a month, I pored over sectional charts, auto road maps, Jeppesen approach charts, and topographic quadrangle maps. I learned the elevation and code for every airway beacon between the West Coast and Chicago. I learned the frequencies, runway lengths, and approach procedures for every airport. From city road maps, I plotted the streets that would funnel me to the various runways at each city.
A month later he was on my trip.
"What is the length of the north-south runway at Milford?" "Fifty-one fifty."
"How high is Antelope Island?" "Sixty-seven hundred feet."
"If your radio fails on an Ogden-Salt Lake approach, what should you do?" "Make a right turn to 290 degrees and climb to 13,000 feet."
"What is the elevation of the Upper Red Butte beacon?" "Seventy-three hundred."
"How high is the Laramie Field?" "Seventy-two fifty."
This lasted for the three hours from Denver to Salt Lake City.
"I'm going to turn you loose on your own. Remember what you have learned. I don't want to ever have to scrape you off some hillside with a book on your lap!"
Twenty years later, I was the Captain on a Boeing 720 from San Francisco to Chicago. We were cruising in the cold, clear air at 37,000 feet.
South of Grand Junction a deep low-pressure area fed moist air upslope into Denver, causing snow, low ceilings, and restricted visibility. The forecast for Chicago's O'Hare Field was 200 feet and one-half mile, barely minimums.
Over the Utah-Colorado border, the backbone of the continent showed white in the noonday sun. I switched on the intercom and gave the passengers the word.
"We are over Grand Junction at the confluence of the Gunnison and Colorado Rivers. On our right and a little ahead is the Switzerland of America--the rugged San Juan Mountains. In 14 minutes we will cross the Continental Divide west of Denver. We will arrive O'Hare at 3:30 Chicago time."
Over Glenwood Springs, the generator overheat light came on.
"Number 2 won't stay on the bus," the engineer advised.
He placed the essential power selector to number 3. The power failure light went out for a couple of seconds and then came on again, glowing ominously.
"Smoke is coming out of the main power shield," the engineer yelled.
"Hand me the goggles."
The engineer reached behind the observer's seat, unzipped a small container, and handed the copilot and me each a pair of ski goggles. The smoke was getting thick.
I slipped the oxygen mask that is stored above the left side of the pilot's seat over my nose and mouth. By pressing a button on the control wheel, I could talk to the copilot and the engineer through the battery-powered intercom. By flipping a switch, either of us could talk to the passengers.
"Emergency descent!" I closed the thrust levers. The engines that had been purring quietly like a giant vacuum cleaner since San Francisco spooled down to a quiet rumble. I established a turn to the left and pulled the speed brake lever to extend the flight spoilers.
"Gear down. Advise passengers to fasten seat belts and no smoking."
I held the nose forward, and the mountains along the Continental Divide came up rapidly. The smoke was thinning.
"Bring cabin altitude to 14,000 feet," I ordered.
At 14,000 feet over Fraser, we leveled and retracted the gear and speed brakes. The engineer opened the ram air switch and the smoke disappeared. We removed our goggles and masks.
Fuel is vital to the life of a big jet, and electricity is almost as vital. The artificial horizon and other electronic instruments, with which I navigated and made approaches through the clouds, were now so much tin and brass. All I had left was the altimeter, the airspeed, and the magnetic compass--simple instruments that guided airplanes 35 years earlier.
"Advise passengers we are making a Denver stop."
"The last Denver weather was 300 feet with visibility one-half mile in heavy snow. Wind was northeast at 15 knots with gusts to 20," the copilot volunteered.
"I know. I heard it."
The clouds merged against the mountains above Golden. Boulder was in the clear. To the northeast, the stratus clouds were thick like the wool on the back of a Rambouillet buck before shearing.
I dropped the nose and we moved over the red sandstone buildings of the University of Colorado. We headed southeast and picked up the Denver-Boulder turnpike.
"We will fly the turnpike to the Broomfield turnoff, then east on Broomfield Road to Colorado Boulevard, then south to 26th Avenue, then east to Runway 8."
The copilot, a San Francisco reserve, gave me a doubtful look. One doesn't scud-run to the end of the runway under a 300-foot ceiling in a big jet.
Coming south on Colorado Boulevard, we were down to 100 feet above the highway. Lose it and I would have to pull up into the clouds and fly the gauges when I had no gauges. Hang onto it and I would get into Stapleton Field. I picked up the golf course and started a turn to the left.
"Gear down and 30 degrees."
The copilot moved a lever with a little wheel on it. He placed the flap lever in the 30-degree slot.
I shoved the thrust levers forward.
"Don't let me get less than 150 knots. I'm outside."
I counted the avenues as they slid underneath. . .30th, 29th, and 28th. I remembered that there was neither a 31st nor a 27th. I picked up 26th. The snow was slanting out of the northeast. The poplar trees and power lines showed starkly through the storm. With electrical power gone, we had no windshield heat. Fortunately, the snow was not sticking.
"Let me know when you see a school on your side and hack my time at five-second intervals from the east side of the school yard."
Ten seconds.
"There it is. The yard is full of kids. Starting time now!"
Good boy. Smiley faced Holly. From the east side of the school yard, I counted Kearney, then Krameria, Leydon, Locust. Remember the double lane for Monaco Parkway. Then Magnolia, Niagara, Newport. Time the speed at 130 knots. Only eight blocks to the end of the runway. Oneida, Olive, Pontiac, Poplar. From Quebec to Syracuse, the cross streets disappear; figure eight seconds. Keep 26th Avenue under the right side of the nose.
"Full flaps."
Dead ahead, glowing dimly in the swirling snow, were the three green lights marking the east end of Runway 8.
We crossed 20 feet above the center green light and touched down in a crab to the left. I aligned the nose to the runway with the right rudder, dropped the nose wheel, popped the speed brakes, and brought in reverse thrust.
It took us 10 minutes to find the terminal in the swirling whiteout. We saw the dim, flashing red light atop the building indicating the field was closed to all traffic.
A mechanic materialized out of the snow carrying two wands. He waved me into the gate.
I set the parking brake.
"We have ground power," the engineer advised.
"Cut the engines."
The bagpipe skirl of sound spiraled down to silence.
"My hat is off to you, skipper. I don't know how you ever found this airport."
"I used to fly for an ornery old chief pilot who made me learn the route," I replied as I hung up my headset and scratched the top of my head where it itched.
Frank Crismon passed away at his home in Denver on 25 Jan 1990.
Editor's note: Professionalism, readiness, and knowledge can never be replaced by all the electronic gadgets in the world. Whether you drive a truck or a C-17, nothing beats knowing your capabilities and those of your machine, and knowing where you are at all times. It's hard to come up with options if you don't know what's going on.
mgc1961
(1,263 posts)Thanks!
Ptah
(33,032 posts)ret5hd
(20,501 posts)Did I ever tell ya' about the time my skateboard truck was a little loose?
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,641 posts)I could not stop reading till it was over.
Our pilots still need to know this stuff...
This sentence really says it all: It's hard to come up with options if you don't know what's going on.
mcp37
(27 posts)The last line are simple words of wisdom that should make us stop and think before we act or open our mouths!
gopiscrap
(23,761 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Sadly with all the activity it will fall off the front of GD pretty quick...
I was about to post that awesome "Children of the Magenta" lecture, but only now I see American Airlines had it scrubbed from youtube...
madokie
(51,076 posts)Been on a few small planes since then though.
I enjoyed this story very much, thanks
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,744 posts)I know the pilots involved in this one: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001208X07385&ntsbno=CHI97IA072&akey=1 Not quite as terrifying, but a fire on an airplane and electrical failures.. Fortunately, both of these guys knew exactly what to do. I'm afraid all the automation has taken away a lot of systems knowledge.
dchill
(38,505 posts)Cheapen everything - including education and the value of life. (After birth, that is.)
1000words
(7,051 posts)Rec
Liberal In Texas
(13,558 posts)Sent it off to a former GA pilot friend.
trof
(54,256 posts)I really thought this post would slip into oblivion early on.
It's WAY too long.
I NEVER read posts that are this long.
Congratulations and much appreciation to you guys.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Great post!!!
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I watch a lot of those plane crash mystery shows. I find it fascinating how different pilots deal with different circumstances.
This story was great. And it's a great cautionary tale.
Loved it, thanks for sharing it!
Skittles
(153,169 posts)when folk like you talk, people listen
trof
(54,256 posts)I think I'm in love.
Skittles
(153,169 posts)aw the stories I could tell
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I think I've already mined all the gold stories out of airliners.net.
Skittles
(153,169 posts)Last edited Tue Oct 29, 2013, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)...it's how interesting the post is.
Most of the stuff on here is short because, frankly, it's not interesting enough to drag things out. Snarkly comments cannot be turned into multi-paragraph stories.
This was good, very good.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)"Don't let me get less than 150 knots. I'm outside."
trof
(54,256 posts)No longer watching the few instruments that were left.
It's a common call.
When the pilot flying is 'outside', the co-pilot stays on the instruments.
I'm guessing the co-pilot then put his hands on the throttles.
"Don't get me less than 150 knots."
Now we have 'auto-thrust' which does that for you with a computer.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)I just couldn't place it. Funny how jargon is like that.
Thanks for posting it. Good thing there wasn't a new obstruction
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...if the electrical system isn't fried.
LeftofObama
(4,243 posts)Thanks for posting this!
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)What a gripping story, and so well told.
K/R
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Sometimes.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)One of the fields is an IFR flag. I Follow Roads will make it into the comments
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)JimDandy
(7,318 posts)as DIA was built away from the city and it's roads.
petronius
(26,602 posts)Skittles
(153,169 posts)that lesson can apply to so many professions, and just plain life itself - it helps to know the workarounds
Ernest Gann couldn't of written that any better.
trof
(54,256 posts)Every pilot I ever knew respected his ability and his writing.
PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)his late wife Dodie was a friend of mine.
Not only was she also an accomplished pilot, she was a most amazing and generous woman. She passed away last Christmas at the age of 90, still with a license!
Dodie Gann was a true environmentalist, a tireless advocate for the humane treatment of animals and a just a wonderful, wonderful woman.
trof
(54,256 posts)MindPilot
(12,693 posts)"Smiley faced Holly..." That is Smiley Jr High on Holly St -- I was a student there.
I've flown that same path--although under much more VFR-ish conditions many times. My house was at 16th & Spruce (one block east of Syracuse and about dead even with the approach end of 08)
Thanks for that almost literal trip down memory lane!!
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Thanks!
rock
(13,218 posts)I couldn't put it down until I finished it. A heart-racing tale! Thanks for sharing.
littlewolf
(3,813 posts)I worked communications in the navy.
we used to do what was called "small pipe."
which is HF communications, rather then satcomm.
this is done rarely now. these are skills that
are no longer taught.
procon
(15,805 posts)I thought it was an except from a really good novel and I was looking for a link to go download the book to my Kindle.
Your friend has an untapped talent as a writer and I'd love to read more.
yourout
(7,531 posts)it is hard as hell.
Landing a single engine Cessna on a clear day is hard enough. I can not imagine doing what the OP did.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)And very well understood.
The news bout the Asiana event really stood out for me.
Competence seems to be a lost quality, and worse yet, is actually celebrated as the society dumbs down.
hatrack
(59,587 posts)Thanks for sharing.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)I could almost hear my dad telling the stories of his close calls (he was AF, not commercial).
No amount of technology will ever replace the human brain in a cockpit - and the day they tell me pilots aren't necessary is the day I quit climbing aboard.
malaise
(269,063 posts)Thanks - Rec
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
icarusxat
(403 posts)done a bit of multi-engine (8 j-57s) jet time and every word rings true...
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Aviation Pro
(12,172 posts)...the addition of CRM and TEM has also been of great benefit to aviation safety in addition to cockpit automation. However, there'll will always be nostalgia for the heady days of 72s and 70s when the Captain was God and flying by one's seat of the pants was the norm (all the while forgetting that the accident rate was appreciably higher back then).
mountain grammy
(26,626 posts)Like Sullenberger who landed in the Hudson or Haynes who landed a DC 10 with no hydraulics.
Aviation Pro
(12,172 posts)...and the first thing that he says during his talk is how incredibly lucky he was to have everything that he had going for him during UA 232's accident. He credited his crew, the Captain who was dead heading, ATC, the mechanics and the triage team from the Iowa National Guard who just happened to be conducting a disaster exercise on that day. He also credits basic airmanship skills that led him to using differential thrust to steer the plane and had he had any control of the brakes, thrust reversers and tiller the outcome may have saved more lives.
As to Sully (and by association Skiles) two of my mentors know him personally and suffice to say they think he may have gone off the reservation since the accident. I won't say anything more about that but suffice to say that two of my former students have had similar crisis situations: one, a training Captain who suffered an incapacitating event during the third segment of climb on my student's second IOE segment and two, a former student who suffered an engine loss after a bird strike. In both cases safety of flight was never in doubt and they, my students, carried on without fanfare. (Both were low time pilots with respect to the equipment).
mountain grammy
(26,626 posts)who worked at Stapleton for many years. We lived on Roslyn St. between Quebec and Syracuse, (the streets in Denver are alphabetical) just a few blocks south of the airport. I could picture him flying over Denver from the west.
My husband worked for Aspen Airlines for many years. One pilot glided a Convair 580 to a safe landing after losing both engines west of the mountains.
Whenever I get on a plane, I look for gray hair in the cockpit.
pasto76
(1,589 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)A hearty DURec.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Last edited Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:48 AM - Edit history (1)
MADem
(135,425 posts)A single pilot onboard just in case, maybe, but the thing will be piloted like a drone from afar....
Sort of like the Google Car of the air....
HubertHeaver
(2,522 posts)I remember standing in formation at Lowery under the glidepath to Stapleton watching the airliners approaching crab-left, nose down, then nose up, crab-right. Just watching was enough to drive one to drink.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)I'm a chief engineer at an aerospace company.... I'm sending this out to all my 'kids'.
Thanks
panader0
(25,816 posts)louslobbs
(3,235 posts)Lou
westerebus
(2,976 posts)thanks
DemoTex
(25,399 posts)Now, let's set up for that NDB approach.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)YBR31
(152 posts)NealK
(1,870 posts)I truly enjoyed reading it.
thanks for the read
heaven05
(18,124 posts)got my respect.
calimary
(81,323 posts)is a good landing."
GREAT story, trof! Great reading! And I always appreciate a happy ending!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And navigating by dead reconing...Npw that is a pilot.
What a great read.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)CaliforniaPeggy
(149,641 posts)mn9driver
(4,426 posts)An electrical fire in flight is every airline pilot's worst nightmare. Most commercial aircraft being flown today require a lot more redundancy and alternative power configurations than the old 720 did. As Ocelot pointed out earlier, about the only passenger jet left flying that you can just turn all the electrics off and still fly it is the DC9; a good old airplane that I have a certain fondness for.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)TYY
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I can't imagine the skill required to tly that pattern with a big plane let alone those conditions!
Great story. Great lesson.
AdHocSolver
(2,561 posts)Classic book on how the plane really flies and how one should really pilot a plane.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)catchnrelease
(1,945 posts)This is great as a short story! Beautifully written....suspense....heroism.....happy ending....I was hooked!
NBachers
(17,122 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,371 posts)Change has come
(2,372 posts)litlbilly
(2,227 posts)He started in 55 flying DC-4s and finished with DC-8s. You had to actually fly those planes as well.
He told us a story when there was an accident where a DC-8 copilot deployed the spoilers 50 feet above the runway and crashed. the plane broke into 3 sections but there were only minor injuries to the pilots. It was a cargo flight, no passengers. So the way the FAA fixed the problem, just put a sign next to the spoiler lever: "DO NOT DEPLOY IN FLIGHT" A little different today. How many pilots today have the skill to actually fly a 757 or 767 if they lose power. That's why the landing on the Hudson was so amazing. Not sure how many could have actually done that without killing anyone.
joanbarnes
(1,722 posts)HubertHeaver
(2,522 posts)You are fearless!
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,842 posts)caraher
(6,278 posts)my BS meter spiked a little and I tried to track its source. It seems to have sprung up a few weeks ago, mainly on web sites I wouldn't link to on DU. This would have to be a pretty old story; the "35 years ago" reference might have been appropriate in the '60s but not recent decades.
As it turns out, G. C. Kehmeier was a 48-year-old United pilot in 1965 when he set a 727 on the ground several hundred feet short of the runway in Salt Lake City, killing 41 passengers. He also apparently wrote an article on Jeppeson for Air Line Pilot in 1994. He lived in Denver, which might be consistent with knowing the streets. Kehmeier apparently died in 2003 at age 85. He did some non-aviation writing; I ran across a piece called "The Lions of Delos" about that Greek island, and he churned out a bit of glurge you can listen to titled "Grandfather's Economic Lessons."
Rodney Stich's book "Unfriendly Skies" mentions both Kehmeier and Crismon. Crismon was a major figure in the history of United and manager of Denver operations in 1965, but Stich mentions him in the context of obstructing his efforts as an FAA official to investigate what the FAA felt was inadequate training of its pilots - including Kehmeier. Stich directly blames United's poor training for the Salt Lake City accident, and condemns United and the ALPA for vilifying Kehmeier as a scapegoat rather than admit they'd failed to correct his high-sink-rate descents, one of which caused the fatal crash.
So it seems possible Kehmeier did write this piece; but if so, it's a bit of a whitewash.
Logical
(22,457 posts)litlbilly
(2,227 posts)Accident description
Last updated: 30 October 2013
Status: Final
Date: Saturday 23 June 1973
Time: 03:58 EDT
Type: McDonnell Douglas DC-8-61CF
Operator: Loftleidir
Registration: N8960T
C/n / msn: 45938/331
First flight: 1968
Total airframe hrs: 21258
Crew: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 9
Passengers: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 119
Total: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 128
Airplane damage: Unknown
Location: New York-John F. Kennedy International Airport, NY (JFK) (United States of America) show on map
Phase: Landing (LDG)
Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport: Reykjavík-Keflavík International Airport (KEF/BIKF), Iceland
Destination airport: New York-John F. Kennedy International Airport, NY (JFK/KJFK), United States of America
Narrative:
Loftleidir Flight 509 originated in Stockholm and was destined for New York with intermediate stops in Oslo and Reykjavik. The flight departed Keflavik Airport at 22:14 EDT. The flight from Keflavik to the outer marker of the ILS for runway 31R at New York-JFK was routine. At 03:56 Flight 509 contacted the tower and was cleared to land on runway 31R; the wind was 200deg at 3 knots. The captain decided to arm the spoilers just before touchdown rather than just after the landing gear had been extended. The latter is called for in the before-landing checklist. Shortly after the call to arm the spoilers, the aircraft struck the runway, tail first, and in a nose-high attitude. Later, the captain stated that he had called for the spoilers to be armed at an altitude between 20 and 30 feet. After impact, all engines were shut down by means of fire shutoff levers; fire extinguishers were discharged.
The first officer stated that because he could not arm the spoilers with his left hand, he had to use both hands. He also stated that he might have pulled back on the activating lever which deployed the spoilers.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The first officer's inadvertent deployment of the ground spoilers in flight while he was attempting to arm the spoiler system. The captain's decision to delay arming of the spoilers until just before touchdown was a contributing factor, because the timing varied from normal procedures and required the crewmembers to act quickly, without time for corrective action."
Sources:
» NTSB-AAR-73-20
litlbilly
(2,227 posts)The DC-8 has an arm lever and deploy lever in the same area. That's where they put the sign that say's don't deploy in flight. And it was 73, not 72. Oh well close enough. I think it's all automatic now on newer aircraft. I think they had an override in case you have to go around but they don't have to deal with that kind of stuff nowadays.
hueymahl
(2,498 posts)And this is one of the better ones I have come across. But it is important not to confuse fiction with reality. Thanks.
It sounds like Kehmeier wrote about the pilot he wishes he was instead of an actual event.
Logical
(22,457 posts)AdHocSolver
(2,561 posts)Having worked in electronics repair, I have seen how failure of one small part, such as a zener diode or a single capacitor, can make electronics gear costing thousands of dollars non-operational.
As a programmer, I have seen a lot of poorly designed, badly written software, from even major corporations.
The trust people put in hardware and software, because "it works most of the time", is appalling.
A computer is a "stupid" piece of hardware, and it is unlikely, based on my experience in software development and maintenance, that there will ever be a computer that can ever be programmed to mimic the skills and experience of a capable and highly trained person.
Corporations actively work to replace people with computers because it is cheaper and more profitable for them to buy computers and software packages than to train and pay skilled workers.
Not Sure
(735 posts)I was surprised to catch a number of parallels to my line of work as a locomotive engineer. Once you learn how to run a locomotive, the job is then about becoming familiar with the territory as much as anything. I do my best to learn everything I can about every mile of rail I run on. I try to master the difficult parts of a run each time I take a train and incrementally I get better at it. Unless you try to memorize everything about a given territory and try different methods of deceleration and train handling, you'll find it's nearly impossible to run in dense fog or heavy snow, for example. I've had a few times where all the time I spent studying track charts and memorizing landmarks has paid off. Not quite as hairy as that flight, but definitely butt-puckering.
Hats off to the captain in the story.
flygal
(3,231 posts)Thanks for posting - I'm sure this is the flight they made a short training video about. I remember it being from Colorado to Chicago. I flew with Alaska, lots of short hops in those days, and it could be hard not to think "ho hum, same old same old" and then we lost flight 261. Changed everything for me.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)thanks, trof.
Uncle Joe
(58,368 posts)Thanks for the thread, trof.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,011 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)~kick
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)ewagner
(18,964 posts)the "old stick n rudder" guys were great...there are a few around in the newer generations but not that many.
arikara
(5,562 posts)Thanks for sharing!
jon10
(46 posts)i would want a pilot with the best knowledge optimized for the current technology state of the plane
the rest, is trivia and distraction. that doesn't excuse newer pilots who allow easier technology to make them sloppy, but i would want their efforts directed to the present, not the past
in an emergency, i would not be comforted by someone who takes 17 paragraphs to make a simple point - i would prefer someone who is CONCISE over someone who is
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Stick and Rudder STILL flies airplanes today.
That hasn't changed.
Punch Cards no longer run our computers.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)What are you trying to say?
Mechanical Altimeters are still used today.
Somewhere in the modern cockpit, there are at least two "mech altimeters",
one for Cabin Altitude, and one for external Barometric Altitude.
The invention of the MicroChip, while a wonderful advancement, did NOT negate the rules of Physics or Aerodynamics.
The basic flight controls for aircraft haven't changed in 100 years.
Even the most modern airliners still use the same conventional rudder, elevator, and aileron to control flight that I used to control the SuperCub I soloed in 1967.
It believe it is a good idea that today's pilots know HOW to use them,
and the basic "pilotage" skills necessary to fly an airplane when the computers fail.
Man has never produced a Fail Safe machine.
SEE: Fukushima
whopis01
(3,514 posts)Like you said, rudder, elevator, aileron (and I'll add throttle) are all you need to get from the ground to the sky and back down again.
I can see a pilot seeing the first altimeter in a plane thinking it is just a fancy gadget and and a distraction - after all any real pilot knows you just look over the side and can see how far away the ground is.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)You would NEED an altimeter.
whopis01
(3,514 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)...fancy gadget then like some think auto pilot and stick feedback is now
bvar22
(39,909 posts)[font size=3]We doan need no stinkin Altimeters[/font]
The Wright Brothers flew 120' at an altitude of 10' in 1903 without an altimeter,
so, obviously, the altimeter is just a useless ornament used to decorate the cockpits of every airplane made since 1914.
I defer my experience as a pilot, lifelong love of sport aircraft, and the commercial license I have held since 1967 to your much greater intelligence, knowledge of aircraft, aerodynamics, history of aviation, the principles of powered flight, and the basic skills necessary to fly them.
<snip>
A practical altimeter existed long before the Wright Brother's first flight in 1903, but it is curious that no well documented record of altimeters being carried in aeroplanes before about 1913. This is probably due to concentration on the immense problem of practical flight, and it was not until flights involving crossing relatively high ground started to become other than a major adventure that the need for altitude measurement arose.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968-1%20-%200235.html
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)this guy:
111. should computer programmers know how to use punchcards, too?
Last edited Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:18 PM USA/ET - Edit history (3)
i would want a pilot with the best knowledge optimized for the current technology state of the plane
the rest, is trivia and distraction. that doesn't excuse newer pilots who allow easier technology to make them sloppy, but i would want their efforts directed to the present, not the past
to which I responded was an [font size=3]invalid comparison[/font] because all that old school stuff is still in use today in the modern cockpit while punch cards are not used today
to which YOU responded:
uponit7771 (that is YOU)
115. very valid,
^That IS you, yes?^
so you see, someone DID say it,
and YOU agreed.
However, NOW you have reversed your opinion and strongly agree with mine.
Thanks for your support, but I really don't need it.
Consistency IS the hallmark of the honest broker.
Ever changing positions is the hallmark of the sophist.
Cheers.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)And the answer would be an unequivocal YES. I've hired many over the years, but never one who didn't. If you don't know what's happening under the hood, you can't problem solve when things quit working they way they should.
Of course, since any nitwit can be taught to read a punchcard in about two minutes, it doesn't really matter anyway.
onyourleft
(726 posts)For me, this was about an instructor who had standards, something severely lacking in many fields today.
Patiod
(11,816 posts)Who needs Tom Clancy or Jeffry Deaver? Serious thriller stuff!
Thanks so much for posting it.
SlipperySlope
(2,751 posts)K&R, hoping more people will read.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Didn't make me any less afraid of flying though!
Turn CO Blue
(4,221 posts)13 years, so this was especially poignant for me!
billh58
(6,635 posts)and a pilot, this brought back many memories. Thanks for posting.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)on the pitching deck of a carrier vividly enough to raise the hair on one's arms. This read had the same effect on me. Thanks!
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)You know, those ads announcing these cars that drive themselves.
Over the next few years, the texting, phoning and GPS drivers will be letting an automated system take over their piloting of their cars. Should a large enough hefty bag get whipped around on the highway, then the spanking new Lexis will grind itself to a halt, suddenly and without much warning. While I imagine the unsuspecting motorists behind the new Lexis will be slamming into the Lexis or the cars in front of them.
trof
(54,256 posts)Number 1 on "greatest" on the Home page.
Wish I had written it.
You just never know what's gonna 'hit' here.
I'm chuffed, even though I was only the messenger.
thanks for sharing
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)We often hear of this proverbial "computer" that flies the plane. There is no such thing. Rather, there is an autoflight system, made up of multiple sub-systems and components, each with a different function.
.
.
.
The automation is not flying the plane. The pilots are flying the plane through the automation. We are telling it which routes to follow, and how to follow them; which speeds and altitudes to fly, and when to fly them; and a hundred other things over the course of a flight. You'd be surprised how busy a cockpit can become to the point of task-saturation with the autopilot on. Even the most routine flight is subject to countless contingencies and a tremendous amount of input from the crew.
That includes the takeoff and landing. In certain weather conditions, jetliners can and do perform automatic landings - autolands, we call them - as they've been doing for more than 35 years (the first jet so certified was the British-built Trident, designed in the 1960s).
But in practice, autolands are very rare. I see two or three each year, maybe. And the term is terribly misleading. The fine print of setting up and managing one of these landings is something I could talk about all day. If it were as easy as pressing a button and folding my arms, I wouldn't need to practice them twice a year in the simulator, or need to consistently review those tabbed, highlighted pages in my manuals. It's there if you need it - for that foggy arrival in Buenos Aires with the visibility sitting at zero - but it's anything but simple. In a lot of ways, an automatic landing is more complicated, and more work-intensive, than a manual one.
trof
(54,256 posts)Zero visibility, zero ceiling.
Heathrow was seriously socked in that morning.
Nothing was moving.
No take-offs, no landings.
At the time, the 1011 was the only commercial aircraft FAA certified for zero-zero autoland.
We had practiced it, over and over in the simulator, but this was my first real time experience.
The bird tracked the ILS flawlessly.
On speed, on centerline, on glideslope.
Autoflared and throttles came to idle.
I couldn't see anything but white fog.
Smooth touchdown.
Only after the nose came down could I see a few feet of the runway centerline stripes.
And the autopilot tracked the runway centerline until I turned it off.
The fog was so thick we had to wait for a 'FOLLOW ME' truck to get us off the runway and finally to the gate.
We were the only flight to land that morning.
Pretty cool.
I finished my career with 10 years on the 747, but the 1011 was always my favorite airliner.
likesmountains 52
(4,098 posts)Holding my breath as he named off the streets below nearing the airport. Thanks!
spin
(17,493 posts)onyourleft
(726 posts)...yesterday and have been thinking about the article since then. Thanks for posting.
Agony
(2,605 posts)Thanks trof!
Cheers
Agony
curlyred
(1,879 posts)Have put off reading this. Brought tears to my eyes.
Child of an original Frontier mechanic. Denver based.
KentuckyWoman
(6,688 posts)Don't know any pilots or even any plane guys. But you had me with the first words and had me hoping for more at the last dot.
SomeGuyInEagan
(1,515 posts)... this has stuck in my head since I read it last fall.