Obama, Congress Owe Snowden Thanks, and a Pardon

[xchrom]

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/10/29-0

Now we know that even the president needs leaks from Edward Snowden to be fully informed about the dastardly acts of his own top spy agency. It was Snowden’s recent revelations that led Obama to order an investigation into spying on private communications of 35 world leaders, including our closest allies, a clear betrayal of the trust needed to establish a more peaceful world.

According to a Wall Street Journal account from senior U.S. officials, the president had been kept in the dark as to the extent of the NSA spy program: “President Barack Obama went nearly five years without knowing his own spies were bugging the phones of world leaders. Officials said the NSA has so many eavesdropping operations under way that it wouldn’t have been practical to brief him on all of them. They added that the president was briefed on and approved of broader intelligence-collection ‘priorities,’ but that those below him make decisions about specific intelligence targets.” Huh?

So it’s beneath the president’s pay grade to approve a decision on bugging the phones of most of the free world’s leaders, and the president didn’t know this was going on until Snowden leaked it? Yes, NSA spokeswoman Vanee Vines confirmed, employing the finest of bureaucratic gobbledygook: “The agency’s activities stem from the National Intelligence Priorities Framework, which guides prioritization for the operation, planning and programming of U.S. intelligence analysis and collection.”

On Sunday, Vines added the reassuring news that the report in the German newspaper Bild alleging that President Obama personally authorized the tapping of German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s phone back in 2010 was false. In any case, we already know, thanks again to information Snowden provided to another German publication, Der Spiegel, that the monitoring of Merkel’s cellphone began back in 2002, when George W. Bush would have been the president the NSA kept out of the loop.

[BlueStreak]

1. Snowden should be on the commission that investigates the NSA

[newfie11]

2. I like your idea

Even though they will never allow it.

[tridim]

3. And the next unattainable Obamapony is born!

Heckuva job! I'm sure you'll get months and months of manufactured Obama hate out of this one.

[xchrom]

4. yet another fine example of real Obama Derangement Syndrome. nt

[tridim]

7. I don't suffer from ODS. I look at the reality of what Obama has accomplished...

and base my opinion of his admin on that.

Good luck with your combustible hair xchrom!!!!11

[Ed Suspicious]

54. No combustion worries at all for people with

their head in the sand.

[Fumesucker]

72. Ouch..

That one left a mark.

[NuclearDem]

80. Ha!

[marmar]

5. k/r

[riderinthestorm]

6. Outstanding article! Big K&R. nt

[DetlefK]

8. "Bild" is the cheapest crap of a newspaper there is in Germany.

As the german punk-singer Farin Urlaub once famously quipped about it in one of his songs (translation):
"And she consists of, who doesn't know,"
"fear, hatred, tits and the weather-report!"

It's sensationalism and nothing else. Even the layout is crap and hurts to look at (not kidding).
It's a newspaper for those who:
1. want to read about murder, accidents, bad things happening to people, the outrageous behavior of some D-list celebrity...
2. for those who have nothing but sports to give their life a meaning
3. and for those who want to look at images of topless women and scantily-clad celebs but don't want to be caught buying a porn-magazine.

About ten years ago, "Bild" was publishing made-up story after made-up story about the lover of a then-famous german actor. The stories were demonstrably false and she asked "Bild" to stop. Didn't help. She had to sue.

Mention that you read "Bild" and people will think of you as a misinformed, gullible fool and rightfully so.

[George II]

9. So, the bugging, if it really was going on, started under the bush administration.....

....and like so many other things during that administration, they kept it secret from even the succeeding administration.

And it's Obama's fault?

[christx30]

11. If my dog is crapping on my

neighbor's lawn for. 6 months, and no one tells me about it, I'm without fault. If the kid down the street tells me about it (and tells my neighbor), and I do nothing to stop it, I'm now in the wrong.

[raindaddy]

17. Good Analogy!!

Continuing with the lawn analogy... Now that guilty dog owner has been outted and the shit shoveling has begun, someone needs to invite the kid in for a cup of hot chocolate and extended stay.

[tridim]

23. Not the kid down the street, the not-so-bright, RW Libertarian kid who now lives in Moscow. nt

[zeemike]

40. Well to continue with the dog shit analogy.

The kid had to leave town because the dog owner threatened to have him arrested for snooping on his dog and causing him so much trouble.
And now some of the neighbors pitch in and call him a traitor and a libertarian and a trouble maker.

[tridim]

53. Nobody threatened Snowjob before he headed off to China and then Russia.

His neighbors are wondering why he was in such a hurry to leave his perfect girlfriend, his family and his country behind for Putin.

[zeemike]

73. Well that is why they make examples out of whistle blowers

So they don't have to threaten them...to show them what happens if you tell...that is the threat.
And if you were privy to that information you would have kept your mouth shut I would imagine, and many that are do because they like the money and don't want to risk anything for a little thing like the constitution.
But he did risk it,and that is what makes him a hero In many minds...

[raindaddy]

51. If there was any doubt before this legitimizes Snowden as a whistle blower.

So, if Obama was really being kept in the dark about what was going on in his own intelligence community, it looks like Edward Snowden did him a favor.

Actually that "not so bright" kid is beginning to look like not only the smartest, but the most honest person in the room.
Imagine the US trying to charge Snowden with espionage at this point.

[AAO]

27. It is if you allow you dog to run free and crap whereever he feels like.

I used to have a neighbor like that - real asshole. Sorry, I may have taken the analogy to far!

[christx30]

31. I'm willing to give the dog

owner the benefit of the doubt here. I am willing to believe that he was never told about it. But now he knows. Now he can do something about it, and put a leash on the dog, or he can allow the crapping to continue, by installing a doggy door (getting a law passed which codifies the NSA's activities, which is what Diane Feinstein wants to do). So what kind of man is Obama? Champion of peace and trust among allies? Or the guy that passed the indefinite detentions provisions in NDAA? Guess we'll find out in the next few weeks.

[AAO]

43. He didn't know that he let his dog run free when he lets him outside?

He must know that he doesn't put a leash on his dog. This has nothing to do with the NSA of course, just talking dog owner etiquette.

[christx30]

63. Good point. He gave his dog too much freedom

to do what it wanted to. He can apologize to his neighbor, help clean up the mess, and get the dog spayed.
With Obama, he can go a long way toward mending fences between us and our allies by giving a hearty "My bad. Those people will be working at McDonalds by this time next week."

[AAO]

70. And he should kick the dog while he's at it... come boy, come boner....

[riderinthestorm]

25. Did you read the article? Obama, Congress members etc owe Snowden

An apology for calling him a traitor and hunting him as though he was a criminal fugitve instead of treating him as the whistleblower he is

[RC]

76. Generally, yes it is.

Obama neglected to clean out the bu$h appointees. Not only that, he appointed more Republicans. When you leave the enemy in place, from the last administration, expect to be sand bagged. And he was.

[rtracey]

10. opinions

Opinions are a wonderful thing to be able to have.... you feel Snowden is a hero...well that's your opinion, many others feel opposite, and I guess the tell-tail sign will be if an incident occurs because of leaked information, or if the "spied" upon country decides not to share information with the US because of the leaks. I wonder if anyone who thinks he is a hero will change their mind if people die because of the leaks? My opinion....i think not.

[sabrina 1]

12. People HAVE died because of bad policies, lies, deceptions from the top of

this government. That is a fact. When anyone tried to expose those dangerous deceptions and lies, our 'security agencies' were used to discredit them. See Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson.

It seems to me that if the truth is uncovered far fewer people are likely to die.

I wonder of those who thought Bush was a hero and Joe Wilson a traitor, changed their minds after the truth became obvious.

Too bad we don't prosecute war criminals in this country. Too bad we don't listen to Whistle Blowers before it's too late. And too bad Cheney got away with his exposure of an uncover agent.

Snowden's revelations have made it possible for this country to reign in the rogue elements in our government.

They spied on THIS president we have learned. This should be not just against the law, but considered to be a treasonous act. The danger in having a spy agency capable of spying on a US Presidential candidate should be obvious to almost everyone.

[AAO]

29. I'm sure we'll prosecute the war criminals as soon as the never-ending GWOT ends.

[freebrew]

35. Exactly!

[phone]

[LittleBlue]

13. The anti-Snowden propagandists must feel awful

now that they realize his revelations weren't "old news", "won't amount to anything", etc.

[George II]

15. He's been out of the country for almost a year....

....and hasn't had access to his sources since then. And this just came out a week or so ago?

What is he doing, saving and doling out more "secrets" anytime he's not the center of attention?

[LittleBlue]

16. Without him, no one would know anything.

This discussion never even happens and we remain ignorant that our government is unconstitutionally spying.

[riderinthestorm]

21. Without him the President wouldn't know what the NSA was doing

Sobering snd scary

[George II]

41. Didn't answer the question...why is he releasing this now? Not getting enough attention lately?

[LittleBlue]

47. Doesn't really matter

I could sit around and guess all day at Snowden's motivations. It wouldn't matter a lick because he's not a government official and he has no power over me.

Attempting to change the focus of this debate to Snowden is useless now that everyone realizes there is a story here.

[George II]

55. "Attempting to change the focus of this debate to Snowden is useless"....

....Snowden is in the subject line. He WAS the focus already!

[LittleBlue]

79. But why he releases something when he does

is totally irrelevant.

It's now proven that these were important revelations, revelations that Obama claims he wasn't aware of, revelations that the Senate clearly weren't aware of.

It was an important service to our society. The only important thing concerning Snowden is that he not be prosecuted for performing a service to the people. The reason we are talking about him is because the government is after him for exposing wrongdoing. To that extent, he should be talked about, but trying to mire the real story (spying) in a debate (one that died after the revelation Merkel was spied on) about his motives is ridiculous.

He's been proven right, his detractors have either recanted or are in hiding because they know they've been utterly defeated in this debate.

[RC]

78. Maybe this one finally came to the top of the stack, that's why.

[Oilwellian]

89. Dearest George

He released the NSA documents over a year ago. The various media sources that have them, are now writing about what they have investigated and verified. Suck it up. The exposure of our criminal government is just beginning, and that's a good thing.

[riderinthestorm]

22. Snowden gave the info to journalists. They are the ones doling out the info now nt

[hootinholler]

32. July through October is almost a year? n/t

[George II]

45. Okay, 5 months - he left the country in May (not July), but he started leaking in late 2012.

[frylock]

56. did you have a point or something?

[George II]

58. Yes, did you read my post?

[frylock]

62. yeah, i did. blah blah blah attention blah blah something.

[George II]

67. Obviously you weren't interested in my point, so why did you ask?

[frylock]

68. i'll refer you to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3943145

[George II]

69. And..........around and around we go!

[boomersense]

14. Snowden may indeed have saved the world from America, which has

taken spying way beyond the pale. Hopefully, the New World Order paradigm and all that is associated with it can begin reversing. Maybe not, but Snowden has at least opened the door to renewed hope for a less intrusive existence.

[sibelian]

57. Potentially.

As you can see, the "NWO" snaky tentacles continue to writhe and slither pleadingly and without shame, regardless (even here). We can only hope that their twitchings show more of the game...

Welcome to DU.

[boomersense]

61. Thanks.... They will... But it will take a few more patriots disguised as mere cogs. And they

will have to weather insults from within and without. They will look less like Jame Bond and more like Mr. Peepers.

[DirtyDawg]

18. Would someone...

...please come clean about just what constitutes 'spying' in these cases? I maintain that I we're not 'eavesdropping' on these folks but merely capturing and storing for potential retrieval and tracking of communications links between and among 'evil-doers' (for lack of a better name)...and like the theory of six degrees of separation, everybody's 'number' is subject to 'come up'. Of course I could be wrong.

[okaawhatever]

87. You're correct. There isn't any information that disputes what you've said. Clearly leaders of

government and other intelligence agencies are being listened to, but not the population of the countries. I noticed early on that the words being used were less for description and more for effect. "massive spying operation", being one example. I guess, massive collection of metadata similar to what's been going on for some time now...didn't sell papers.

I'll pass on saying anything nice about Snowden. We don't owe him an apology, and only our enemies owe him thanks. He has done wonders for Russia, China and N Korea.

[SidDithers]

19. Snowden is Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!...

Sid

[Adrahil]

20. Naturally he ran to that bastion of freedom: Russia!

[SamYeager]

33. Only after running to that bastion of free speech, CHINA!!!

[sabrina 1]

36. Except he didn't. But don't ever, ever allow facts to interfere with a good

old content free, drive by with a laughing roly poly guy for extra effect.

[SamYeager]

39. Only he did.

Re-writing of historical facts notwithstanding.

[sabrina 1]

65. You're right, re-writing historical facts doesn't change the

facts at all.

[SamYeager]

66. Thank you for admitting that he first went to China. n/t

[George II]

46. He didn't run off to China, then Russia?

[sabrina 1]

74. No, he didn't!

His plane stopped over in Hong Kong where the US Govt asked them to detain him. Hong Kong refused to detain him and he went on to next stop over, which was Moscow. The US Govt then rescinded his passport making it impossible to CONTINUE on his way! He remained in the airport until granted temporary asylum for one year.

He was not headed for either China or Russia.

It's fine to disagree with him, it's not fine to distort facts, any facts.

[George II]

75. I think you need to check YOUR "facts".

[LittleBlue]

82. No, Sabrina's right

He remains there because the US is trying to capture him, and Russia is one of two with the power to prevent the CIA from abducting him (the other is China, and maybe North Korea).

You might as well claim Chinese dissidents are hypocrites for remaining in China because China is antidemocratic. They have as little choice as Snowden has. He cannot leave and remain free.

[George II]

84. That's curious. Maybe someone can answer this?

So, he didn't flee to Hong Kong, yet he already had an interview set up with journalists there, and he claims he gave ALL of his documents to them - IN HONG KONG. Was it just coincidence that they happened to be in Hong Kong as he was drifting through on his way to somewhere (still unspecified) else?

http://www.businessinsider.com/when-did-snowden-give-up-the-nsa-files-2013-10

[Adrahil]

86. Ummmm..... why did he go to Russia in the first place?

I mean, if I'm a champion of freedom, I don't run to RUSSIA.

I am genuinely perplexed by those who support him without reservation. :-/

Ah well, this subject just raises my blood pressure.

[sabrina 1]

88. He was allowed to leave Hong Kong, after the US asked them to detain him.

Hong Kong refused. He was unable to leave Moscow airport to continue his journey when the US took his passport away.

I don't understand people who make stuff up just because they disagree with whistle blowing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. If he'd mailed his thumb drives to the President instead, saying

"Mr. President, I'm sure you didn't realise the NSA is spying on the leaders of allied countries, and you'll want to fix this at once", do you think the information would even have got to Obama? Or that Snowden would not have been arrested for it?

[former9thward]

83. He would not have been arrested.

He would have been found hanging in his home, a suicide.

[AAO]

24. Republicons are going nuts over this - Obama Gotcha!

But how can it be Obama's fault he didn't know if nobody tells him of it's existence?

[ProSense]

26. Why does he need a "pardon"?

Isn't he happy in Russia?

People are acting like rephrasing "Snowden is a hero" changes anything.

On Sunday, Vines added the reassuring news that the report in the German newspaper Bild alleging that President Obama personally authorized the tapping of German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s phone back in 2010 was false. In any case, we already know, thanks again to information Snowden provided to another German publication, Der Spiegel, that the monitoring of Merkel’s cellphone began back in 2002, when George W. Bush would have been the president the NSA kept out of the loop.

The same BS spin is ongoing. I mean, read that frigging paragraph.

As I said here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023937555), it's interesting that this program started in 2002 under Bush, and ended early in the Obama Presidency when it was discovered, but somehow it's just becoming an issue. Wonder why?

Now, that the initial reporting wasn't enough to spark another BS "gate," the new spin is Obama "approved" a program started under Bush...the same program Obama ended.

The media suck!

Also, what the hell does spying on foreign leaders have to domestic spying?

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. 2013 is not 'early in the Obama presidency'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24690055

He needs a pardon because Obama wants him thrown in prison. As do Dick Cheney and you, it seems.

"Isn't he happy in Russia? "

Clown question, sis.

[hootinholler]

34. Sure it is

All presidencies are measured by the last 100 days. Therefore anything before that is early in the presidency.

Do I need the tag?

[ProSense]

38. You know,

2013 is not 'early in the Obama presidency'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24690055

He needs a pardon because Obama wants him thrown in prison. As do Dick Cheney and you, it seems.

...the initial reports are hard to find, but the pieces says her name is still on the list.

Here is a report from last week:

The White House responded that Merkel's mobile is not being tapped. "The president assured the chancellor that the United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of the chancellor," said a statement from Jay Carney, the White House spokesman.

But Berlin promptly signalled that the rebuttal referred to the present and the future and did not deny that Merkel's communications had been monitored in the past.

Asked by the Guardian if the US had monitored the German chancellor's phone in the past, a top White House official declined to deny that it had.

Caitlin Hayden, the White House's National Security Council spokeswoman, said: "The United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of Chancellor Merkel. Beyond that, I'm not in a position to comment publicly on every specific alleged intelligence activity."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/23/us-monitored-angela-merkel-german

As I said, the story is changing, but there is nothing to indicate that Obama approved this action.

"Isn't he happy in Russia? "

Clown question, sis.

LOL! "Clown" response.

[sabrina 1]

42. Since you asked, no, he had no intention of going to Russia. The US Government

took away his passport making it impossible for him to leave the airport which was just a stop over.

The program was started under Bush, lots of programs, The Patriot Act, the never ending WOT, spying on the American people, and apparently on all of our allies.

We threw them out because we wanted to end these policies which caused so much harm to the US and to other countries.

That meant removing all Bush Personnel in positions of power. That was the goal of all those who worked so hard to get rid of them.

But our leadership decided to be 'bi-partisan', not to prosecute War and Wall St criminals and to appoint back into positions of power the same Republicans the people threw out and/or leave them where they had already done so much damage.

Did any Democrat seriously think that Bush Loyalists left in or appointed to these positions would NOT try to 'blame' a Dem if they got caught, or undermine a Dem given the chance?

Your anger is misdirected. The worst decision made by Dems over the past five years was to assume that they could trust Republicans.

NOW maybe we can rid of Alexander, of Clapper and start prosecuting Bush loyalists and direct the blame where it belongs, although by associating with them for so long, Dems ARE now tainted by their illegal and corrupt schemes, maybe even will, sadly, end up being blamed for them.

Progressives were right once again but were told how naive they were, how they 'hate america' etc etc.

The whole corrupt Bush regime should have been removed and prosecuted where needed back in 2009 and we would not have this mess today.

[ProSense]

49. LOL!

"Since you asked, no, he had no intention of going to Russia. The US Government

took away his passport making it impossible for him to leave the airport which was just a stop over."

Report: Snowden reached out to Russia before arrival
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57600107/report-snowden-reached-out-to-russia-before-arrival/

Fidel Castro angry at accusations that Cuba snubbed Edward Snowden
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/28/fidel-castro-edward-snowden-cuba-us

[George II]

52. Sounds like "Fast and Furious" - started during the bush administration...

....ended just months into the Obama administration, but it was Obama's fault!

[stonecutter357]

37. I hate Libertarians more than Republicans.

[Blue_Tires]

44. Manning deserves the pardon and debt of gratitude

Last I checked, Snowden was still a free man...

[RC]

81. Actually he is not. He is trapped in Russia.

If Snowden goes to any country we have an extradition treaty with, he will be subject to the same treatment Manning was and is.

[George II]

90. No - he's not trapped in Russia...

...he can choose to leave any time he wants.

[RC]

92. And spend the rest of his life in prison?

Why would he take a chance on that?

[George II]

94. Then he's not the martyr that he wants everyone to think he is....

Nelson Mandela went to prison
Mahatma Gandhi went to prison
Martin Luther King Jr. went to jail

And there are many more.

Snowden? Nah, too chickenshit to stand up for what he believes in.

[RC]

96. Maybe Snowden doesn't want to be, nor needs to be a martyr.

He is doing a plenty good enough job of exposing the criminality of our government right where he is.

BTY, Snowden did stand up for what he believes and adhered to the oath he took. You know the part about upholding the Constitution? That is not being chicken shit. Being chicken shit would be keeping quiet about what he knew about the unconstitutionally of the spying on American citizens by the NSA.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. A surge in "plausible deniability" and "I didn't know" claims are occurring.

Of course, that also falls under the "Everybody does it" rationale.

[L0oniX]

50. Snowden types - Next time just email Obama with all your insider revelations of wrong doings.

[PatrynXX]

59. Still a traitor

but should be allowed to stay outside this country. Now lets go after Dick Cheney. He caused far more harm

[Tikki]

64. + to infinity...

on both counts…


Tikki

[Egnever]

60. LOL

Dumbest article ever

[Puzzledtraveller]

71. but he made them look bad!!

[Autumn]

77. K/R

[woo me with science]

85. K&R

[AtomicKitten]

91. I believe admission of and remorse for a crime

are required as eligibility for a pardon.

[bobduca]

93. No, "a pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and cancellation of the relevant penalty."

There is no admission of guilt required nor associated with a pardon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon (emphasis mine)
"A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the cancellation of the relevant penalty; it is usually granted by a head of state (such as a monarch or president) or by acts of a parliament or a religious authority. Clemency means the forgiveness of a crime or the cancellation (in whole or in part) of the penalty associated with it. It is a general concept that encompasses several related procedures: pardoning, commutation, remission and reprieves. Commutation or remission is the lessening of a penalty without forgiveness for the crime; the beneficiary is still considered guilty of the offense. A reprieve is the postponement of punishment, often with a view to a pardon or other review of the sentence (such as when the reprieving authority has no power to grant an immediate pardon)."

[AtomicKitten]

95. doesn't there have to be admission of a crime

before pardoning the crime?

doesn't make sense otherwise

On edit -perhaps a pardon isn't applicable in this particular case.

[bobduca]

97. Probably still premature for a pardon

I had to look it up... not a lawyer or playing one currently on TV

I think that the U.S. govt. has not charged him they have merely cancelled his passport.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/a/prez_pardons_2.htm

Bush pardoned two folks before trial but, importantly post-indictment.