These are the sodomites mentioned in the Bible

[ashling]

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. Touche'. Even Yaweh got it right once in a while. n/t

[raging moderate]

2. Amen

In fact, Selah.

[stevenleser]

3. That is the take you get when you go to Hebrew school to prep for Bar-Mitzvah.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of generalized cruelty including cruelty towards visitors in various ways. This chapter in wiki's description of Sodom and Gomorrah covers this quite well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah#Religious_views

[freshwest]

5. Thanks, Steven. Is there a list of more Wikipedia entries to clarify other Hebrew verses? TIA.

This sounds exactly like what we are dealing with now:

One of the worst was to give money or even gold ingots to beggars, after inscribing their names on them, and then subsequently refusing to sell them food. The unfortunate stranger would end up starving and after his death, the people who gave him the money would reclaim it.

A rabbinic tradition, described in the Mishnah, postulates that the sin of Sodom was related to property: Sodomites believed that "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" (Abot), which is interpreted as a lack of compassion.

Another rabbinic tradition is that these two wealthy cities treated visitors in a sadistic fashion.

Most of the efforts of the Democratic Party have been to try to right these wrongs. Whereas the libertarian, tea party, etc. wing of the GOP has celebrated these wrongs.

[stevenleser]

6. Hmmm, not sure, I can look them up if needed. I think folks should see this in particular

about the whole Sodom and Gomorrah piece:

The scholar and activist Jay Michaelson proposes a reading of the story of Sodom that emphasizes the violation of hospitality as well as the violence of the Sodomites. "Homosexual rape is the way in which they violate hospitality—not the essence of their transgression. Reading the story of Sodom as being about homosexuality is like reading the story of an ax murderer as being about an ax."[37] Michaelson places the story of Sodom in context with other Genesis stories regarding Abraham's hospitality to strangers, and argues that when other texts in the Hebrew Bible mention Sodom, they do so without commentary on homosexuality. The verses cited by Michaelson include Jeremiah 23:14,[Jeremiah 23:14] where the sins of Jerusalem are compared to Sodom and are listed as adultery, lying, and strengthening the hands of evildoers; Amos 4:1-11 (oppressing the poor and crushing the needy);[Amos 4:1-11] and Ezekiel 16:49-50,[Ezekiel 16:49-50] which defines the sins of Sodom as "pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and did toevah before me, and I took them away as I saw fit." Michaelson uses toevah in place of abomination to emphasize the original Hebrew, which he explains as being more correctly translated as "taboo"
---------------------------------------------------------------
I wish more people understood this.

At some point, I think Medieval clerics got a hold of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and due to their own prejudices and issues, made it about gay rape. That story is not about that at all.

[freshwest]

11. Yes I read that... And I believe the medieval writers were ignorant in their stress on physicality.

This piece shows a culture that violated what, IIRC, laws on hospitality to a stranger. A story of a man who was being attacked by a mob, and his hand held on the stake holding the tent, yielding him protection.

Not sure which religion has that story, but it's part of the Abrahamic model. Pardon my ignorance on how to express similarity or difference.

I have Jews in my family, and their outlook matches what Michaelson says. It really is more about what is within, not what is on the outside.

And respect. That is the greatest difference I see, the lack of respect for those seen as the other, poor, etc. The OT as Christians call it, is replete with harsh terms and threats of judgment from for oppression of the poor, orphans, aliens, etc.

This is what I see taught by the GOP in detail and carried out zealously.

Hope you can find a focal point for me to reference, Thanks Steven.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. It is still a story about a really mean deity who nuked two entire cities.

Yahweh is not a nice god.

[stevenleser]

22. Two cities entirely comprised of people who regularly torture and kill people.

I actually agree with your main point that the diety described in the bible does not come off as a nice god, but in this case, the old testament describes that Lot couldn't find anyone in either city that wasn't engaging in the wanton torture and cruelty he was observing. It tells of a deal with God where if Lot found at least 10 people who weren't doing these things, God would spare the cities. He couldn't even find that many.

Obviously, since I am anti-death penalty, I do not agree with capital punishment whether from the state or some proposed divine being, but I feel a little less sad and upset about known torturers and murderers who are killed. And since we are talking about supposedly a divine being who knows all things, we know at least in the story that they are definitely not innocent or wrongly accused.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. This was after getting pissed off in general about people and flooding the entire planet.

And is one of many such episodes in Yahweh's angry history. Don't get me started on passover, which story gives me hives every year as everyone else at the table mindlessly recites a tale that includes the genocide of egyptian children.

[stevenleser]

24. I agree...

... if it makes you feel better, I'm sure if something like the plagues occurred, and I think they did, the natural occurrences which caused them had nothing to do with intentionally singling anyone or any creature out. I tend to agree with this explanation:

[LostOne4Ever]

38. A justification to excuse their deity if you ask me

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Two cities entirely comprised of people who regularly torture and kill people.

There is no way that a major city could be comprised ENTIRELY of people who regularly torture and kill. No matter how you look at it there would have been children and babies there. They killed no one and they tortured no one. Yet they were not spared if you look at the tale as anything other than a fable. And I highly doubt there were only 9 of them total.

Then there is lot's wife whose transgression was simply to look back at her home where some of their family remained.

[p class=post-sig style=margin-top:0px;text-align:center;]

[div style='color: #B20000;font-size: 2.000em'] [center] Not all those who wander are LOST!!! [/center]

[Miranda4peace]

46. Still it was an aspect. In biblical context the behavior itself is prohibited and deemed "hellworthy

Instead of trying to reinvent the text's and make them say something they obviously didn't, why not just accept that they are radically racist, pro-genocidal, pro-war etc, anti-gay, anti-women, anti-children etc???

I just don't get it. We don't need to rework old violent religions, we need to move past them.

Humanism or nothing!

[stevenleser]

50. I get your point and it is a good one, but anything that weakens bigoted arguments

is something I am going to use. I guess that's where I am at.

[Miranda4peace]

51. I understand that, bigots definitely should be fought..........with love lol. I usually retort with

"He who hasn't sinned can cast the first stone" or "turn the other cheek" or "love your neighbor".

[BlancheSplanchnik]

8. [phone]. You are so right

There's a little group of conservy bible humpers I know of. They are distinguished by their gossip and backstabbing.

[adieu]

14. Yeah, how different

Is giving gold ingots and not letting them use it compared to banks giving out loans for homes and then forcing them to foreclose and take everything from them?

[struggle4progress]

26. Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers), Chapter Five:

... There are four types among men. He who says, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours" -- this is the common type, though some say that this is the type of Sodom. He who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is mine" -- he is an ignorant man. He who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is thine own" -- he is a saintly man. And he who says, "What is yours is mine, and what is mine is mine" -- he is a wicked man ...

http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html#chap5

[freshwest]

28. Thanks, will be reading that.

[jwirr]

4. Excessive self interest - greed - is the way I have always read that verse. It says nothing about

same sex relationships.

[LuvNewcastle]

7. Thanks for the thread.

I'd never heard the Jewish beliefs about the story of Sodom. I would certainly take the Jewish version over the Christian version; it's their book, after all.

[stevenleser]

10. "I would certainly take the Jewish version ... it's their book, after all." - Exactly

Exactly the point I try to make to people every now and then.

If you want to understand something in the old testament, ask scholarly Jews about it. Judaism has reams of commentary about just about every part of the old testament that adds valuable context to what those passages mean.

[struggle4progress]

27. +

[snooper2]

9. God commissions St. Peter

God commissions St. Peter

After having been commissioned by God to take a survey of how man was doing on Earth, St. Peter now stood before his boss ready to present his findings.
“Tell me, St. Peter, what have you found out?” God asked.
“I’m very sorry to have to tell you this, but the people are behaving in a sinful manner. There’s drugs, alcohol, murders, you name it. A regular Sodom and Gomorrah. But the worst is this new obsession with oral sex. According to my survey, 88% of the population is doing it. Even four out of five dentists recommend it.
I’m afraid it has reached epidemic proportions.”

“Hmmm,” God said thoughtfully, “Do you have any recommendations as to what should be done to put an end to this sexual perversion?”

“I think we should send a message to everyone on Earth who engages in oral sex. The contents of that message should tell them exactly what will happen to them on Judgment Day if they do not stop this type of activity.” replied St. Peter.

“That is an effective solution,” God stated, “but I think that instead of punishing those who practice oral sex, we should reward those who refrain from it. Let’s send a letter that’s personally signed by me to each one of these good people.”

And so they did.

Do you know what the letter said?

(scroll down)





No?

(scroll down a little more)






Hmmm…You didn’t get the letter either, huh??

[TexasTowelie]

40. Good one!

I didn't get the letter either.

Are the letters from God camouflaged as Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes entry forms?

[Rhythm]

49. Nope...

[Thucydides]

12. Freaking awesome post!

[adieu]

13. In reading the Wikipedia entry on Sodom and Gomorrah

I am struck with the similarity between those two cities and how many small towns and cities in the south (in the United States) are behaving as such. No, they're not ass-raping visiting travelers yet, but with their unfriendly facade, local police that don't mind shaking down travelers, irrational suspicions about people moving in or moving through, and a generally inhospitable presence towards any outsiders, especially if they're black or Asian or Hispanic or Islamic or raise a blip on their hypersensitive gaydars.

It really is the pot calling the kettle black.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. It isn't limited to the South.

The behavior you describe is found throughout the US. Interestingly enough, there is a bigotry against Southerners that is quite common throughout the US (and even supposed liberal microcosms). The usual exception is large cities, anywhere in the US, but even they can be quite problematic if you move into the "wrong" neighborhood. One would think many of these stereotypes and hate would be lessened with the closing of the world, but, IMO, it has made some bigotries much more accessible as opposed to repugnant.

[cordelia]

56. Is there not a single topic on this site that doesn't bring out the

South hating bigots?

[Sand Wind]

15. The best post of the month !!!! +10000000000000000 nt

[KauaiK]

16. Seems Ryan isn't paying attention to the new Pope!

[QuestForSense]

17. That's because he's got his big nose buried in the backside of Ayn Rand,

a novelist, worshiped as a false idol by the far right.

[Cleita]

18. Rand, meaning author Ayn Rand, was also an avowed atheist, which is something

Last edited Sun Oct 27, 2013, 01:25 PM - Edit history (1)

her followers seem to be unaware of.

[AlbertCat]

29. Rand was also an avowed atheist,

Is he? He opening and publicly stated "I am an atheist."


How did he ever get elected?


I mean, he may be an atheist. (For all we know so is Pat Robertson) but an "avowed" one? People who know him personally may be aware he is an atheist, but an "avowed" one?


Anyway, whatever he is, he will use the religious and gullible, just like the GOP has been doing.

[Cleita]

30. Ayn Rand, the mother of Libertarianism was an atheist by

her own admission. Look it up.

[AlbertCat]

53. Ayn Rand, the mother of Libertarianism was an atheist

I know that.

But she isn't Rand Paul.

[Cleita]

55. I never said she was. The sub post was about Rand Paul taking his

philosophy from Ayn Rand and I pointed out the irony because she was an atheist. Context and comprehension are everything.

[B Calm]

45. Looking for an argument?

[AlbertCat]

54. Looking for an argument?

No.

I just wondered if he was really an AVOWED atheist.

Words have meanings and I hate hyperbole.

[QuestForSense]

33. What irony, eh?

[silverweb]

19. Perfect!

[Uncle Joe]

20. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, ashling.

[IrishAyes]

25. Enjoyed the OP and comments immensely.

[RainDog]

31. LOL n/t

[gtar100]

32. Except that God hasn't removed them yet.

Historically, though, His timing on fixing problems has pretty much sucked. These Sodomites screw up countless lives, God finally takes action to stop it, and then proclaims hero status. You'd think with all that "omnipotency" in Him, He'd figure out how to prevent these injustices in the first place.

[Samantha]

34. We need to use that word "Sodomites" in our everyday language

when referring to the Republicans, or maybe narrow it down to the Tea Party group??? That would really work well as far as motivating some in the South to look at these people under a different microscope.

Maybe we need to coin an acronym. I am sure someone here could suggest a really great one. The only thing I can think of off the top of my heard is a combination of GOP and Sodomites, which could be GODSODS. But I am going to keep thinking about this. I wonder if anyone else thinks this might be something we should collaborate on.

Usage of an acronym combining these two words would really, really irritate the GOP, and that would make it worthwhile.

Sam

[Initech]

36. Win!!!!!

[fierywoman]

37. another couple of confessions:

A Catholic man goes to confession and tells the priest he's been having oral sex with his wife.
The priest replies: "Sorry, I have to excommunicate you."
The man goes to a Protestant minister and asks to join his church. The Protestant, always happy to have Catholics join, says he'd be happy to confirm him, but ... how is it that he is coming to the Protestant church? The ex-Catholic replies that he just wants to worship God, and that he happened to mention to his priest that ...
The Protestant minister stops him and says, "Oh, so sorry, we don't like people like that in our church."
So out of desperation the ex-Catholic goes to a Rabbi.
The Rabbi is rather startled that the ex-Catholic wants to convert and asks him to explain. The man tells his story and the Rabbi smiles and says, 'Ah, the Goyim, what do they know about sex?"

[riqster]

52. Excellent!

[sibelian]

57. Welcome to DU!

[Cha]

39. What an Enllightening thread.. thank

you, ashling~

[TexasTowelie]

41. Thanks for thread.

A great reminder of what the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah really meant.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

42. It doesn't matter, the RWers will never accept this unless their RW Radio gods or FoxNews

tells them to. But, it's good to know!

[napkinz]

43. K&R

nt

[dipsydoodle]

44. Maybe the Bible meant Soda Mites

and it got lost in translation.

[mgardener]

47. The picture

forgot Rafael Cruz

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

48. Answer a question for me please.

Why do we have Sodomites yet we never have Gomorrahmites? Hardly seems fair!

[ashling]

59. Here are some pictures which should clear things up

Soddomites




Gommorahmites

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

60. Well now!

I have recovered my sensibilities enough to respond. That was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. Thanks, I needed that. I have some folks I need to share this with. Thanks...................

[raging moderate]

58. The Tea Bag people are not expressing the only Christian viewpoint.

They do not speak for my great-grandfather Charles Wyatt, a Methodist Episcopal minister, or his wife Nellie Wyatt who was also active in the ministry in little towns across Southern Minnesota. Social justice was a big concern of theirs. I have a little Indian mother & baby doll awarded to my great-grandmother for helping to stop the kidnapping of Native American children into those infamous Indian schools, and my great grandparents' families had been active Abolitionists. Nellie's brother had joined the Union Army at age 16 to end slavery; he had died for Freedom. My ancestors were mostly poor little farmers, craftsmen, and clerks, but they were not loaded with MASSIVE READING COMPREHENSION DEFICITS, as so many right-wing fundies seem to be. Of course, when you read a passage thousands of years old, you have to take into account the context of where those people were living, what others around them were doing, and what was happening to them.

If you read the whole Bible (as these Tea Bag people claim to have done), you begin to notice that most of the thunderous condemnation is against hoarding of wealth and oppression of poor people. Reasonable Christian ministers have long sought the advice of Jewish rabbis about original Hebrew meanings, etc. My mother said that her grandmother once told her that they had been good friends with a number of Jewish rabbis and Catholic priests. I ran across this Ezekiel passage on my own about ten years ago. I have since taken some efforts to spread it as much as I could. The verse is right there in the book of Ezekiel, as well as some against pollution and cheating the poor people in the courts.

The slavemasters who seized on the gay rape theme were not really seeking spiritual growth. They wanted to kidnap others and force them into a miserable existence of being screamed at and beaten and starved and forced to do all the hard, dirty work. These slavemasters did not read so much as they skimmed books, looking for whatever flimsy excuse they could find to prop up their morally bankrupt lifestyle.