WaPo opinion: Edward Snowden is no traitor

[GliderGuider]

Edward Snowden is no traitor

by Richard Cohen

What are we to make of Edward Snowden? I know what I once made of him. He was no real whistleblower, I wrote, but “ridiculously cinematic” and “narcissistic” as well. As time has proved, my judgments were just plain wrong. Whatever Snowden is, he is curiously modest and has bent over backward to ensure that the information he has divulged has done as little damage as possible. As a “traitor,” he lacks the requisite intent and menace.

But traitor is what Snowden has been roundly called. Harry Reid: “I think Snowden is a traitor.” John Boehner: “He’s a traitor.” Rep. Peter King: “This guy is a traitor; he’s a defector.” And Dick Cheney not only denounced Snowden as a “traitor” but also suggested that he might have shared information with the Chinese. This innuendo, as with Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction, is more proof of Cheney’s unerring determination to be cosmically wrong.

The early denunciations of Snowden now seem both over the top and beside the point. If he is a traitor, then which side did he betray and to whom does he now owe allegiance? Benedict Arnold, America’s most famous traitor, sold out to the British during the Revolutionary War and wound up a general in King George III’s army. Snowden seems to have sold out to no one. In fact, a knowledgeable source says that Snowden has not even sold his life story and has rebuffed offers of cash for interviews. Maybe his most un-American act is passing up a chance at easy money. Someone ought to look into this.

Have at it, kids.

[geek tragedy]

1. Meh. Richard Cohen is a racist hack of the first order, so I make it a point

to ignore whatever he says.

[chimpymustgo]

4. But he's correct on this one. Edward Snowden is a HERO.

Fools denigrate him, but one day, they too shall understand his bravery and heroism.

[randome]

5. He never says he's a hero.

We shouldn't pay much attention to pontificating politicians. Sure, Snowden isn't a 'traitor' by the legal definition of the word.

He's still an idiot, IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[chimpymustgo]

8. No, he doesn't; I do. Edward Snowden is a principled, courageous HERO,

[brush]

12. He's also naive, used, and stuck in Russia

[Tarheel_Dem]

20. These guys agree!

?

Snowie's in great company!



YAY! Snowie!

[EOTE]

55. Hitler was a vegetarian, you know.

Since you are so fond of the guilt by association game, I'm assuming you think that all vegetarians are just Nazis in training, right? It's a pretty damned stupid game to play.

[Tarheel_Dem]

59. !!!

[Mojorabbit]

69. OMG This is really pathetic nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

70. !!!

[NuclearDem]

72. Oh, Jesus, not this shit again

Can we have a course in basic logic become a prerequisite for membership here?

[kelliekat44]

28. I just wonder if he would have done this if George Bush were President? nt

[Wilms]

29. I just wonder if you would have done all you have if George Bush were President. n/t

[Adrahil]

48. Bullshit... he's a tool and a traitor. nt

[GliderGuider]

50. The judge who provides analysis for Fox News disagrees with you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023915678#post49

[Adrahil]

71. He is damaging our international relations daily. F him. He deserves to rot in jail.

[NuclearDem]

73. Or maybe it's the shit we're doing that's harming our international relations.

The reason you keep shit like this a secret is because it's wrong and violates our allies' trust.

[Adrahil]

75. Wrong? :/

Sorry, but I think that's incredibly naive. The POTUS needs as much information as he can get, and sometimes that means being sure that what our allies tell us officially is what they actually think privately.

Spies spy. That's what they are for.

[riderinthestorm]

77. So how do you reconcile the FACT that the NSA wasnt telling Obama

About the spying...

[GliderGuider]

74. Thanks for kicking the thread!

He's embarrassing you? I learned as a kid that the best way to keep from being embarrassed was not to do anything embarrassing.

[Adrahil]

76. That's great if you're five.

Not so great if you're the POTUS and need to be confident in what our allies are telling us.

And I don't mind kicking the thread. It's an important discussion.

[GliderGuider]

78. Yes, it is an important discussion.

I think that the real issue that needs examination is not so much the specifics of what the NSA is doing, or Snowden's moral character. The big deal in these revelations is just how little oversight and how few boundaries are placed on the activities of the intelligence community. When you're the most powerful nation in the world, acting with such impunity is a bad idea from any point on the compass. Yes, you need intelligence. But it has to be under firm control, or shit happens. It's not under control, and so shit is happening.

[Adrahil]

81. OK, on to a better discussion... good!

I agree that intelligence agencies need to be under firm control. But I DO think Snowden's failings are at issue here. He chose, quite without any kind moral authority, to decide what is, and is not appropriate for our intelligence agencies to do.

You might argue, with some basis, that Snowden was acting in the interests of the citizens of the USA when he revealed the so-called domestic surveillance program. I might disagree, but there is at least an argument to be made. But the same cannot be said for his deciding what foreign intelligence programs to reveal. It crosses the line, IMO of him acting (at least from his view point) in the interests of citizens of this country to acting in the interests of foreign powers.

There is a very real need for reliable intelligence on what are allies are saying and thinking in private. We base our actions on what our allies say and do. If they tell us one thing, but do another in private, and we DON'T know it, it can cause us serious problems.

FWIW, Germany is NOT a member of Five Eyes.

[GliderGuider]

82. IMO, Snowden's revelations have all been in the long-term interests of democracy and the USA

I'm a great believer in the enforced transparency of those in power. I believe in systems of dynamic checks and balances that provide meaningful opportunities for the governed to engage with their governors. Those opportunities have vanished in the USA, and have been replaced by facile mantras of security and national self-interest, along with a contagious abdication of responsibility. I think a periodic disinfection of the halls of power is essential for the continued health of societies, and that's why I think what Snowden did was both morally and pragmatically correct.

I'm not interested in changing the mind of anyone who has a different viewpoint, but that's my position.

[Adrahil]

84. And I disagree.

While I agree that our intelligence agencies need close oversight, I absolutely disagree that exposing our foreign intelligence capabilities is in the interests of the country and I'm even less supportive of people like Snowden and Greenwald deciding for the rest of us what is and is not permissable. Neither of them are any kind of representative of the people, much less an elected one. That requires a special kind of completely unaware self-righteousness.

Snowden was a well-intentioned rube who crossed the line from whistle-blower to spy, and Greenwald, like Assange before him, is a complete narcissist, intersted only in his own fame and notoriety, whatever the cost.

[GliderGuider]

85. Well, I certainly can't argue with an opinion like that. nt

[alp227]

34. Not just racist

also misogynistic and mathphobic and a Boosh apologist

[sabrina 1]

57. That's too bad because he is apologizing for joining Dick Cheney

and Peter King et al in their condemnation of Snowden, which was to be expected since Snowden was merely exposing their own policies.

It takes a lot to publicly admit you are wrong. Cheney will never admit it because he supports spying on everyone.

And if someone can admit to being wrong about something as important as this, they show signs of being capable of at least thinking about what they believe.

I notice that when this topic comes up, those opposed to it attack the messenger but never address the issues. Interesting that.

Snowden IS a hero and history will record him that way as it has Daniel Ellsberg, although I doubt Cheney will ever agree.

[Uncle Joe]

2. Kicked and recommended for valid points.

Thanks for the thread, GliderGuider.

[GliderGuider]

6. You're welcome. nt

[MADem]

3. How does this guy know he passed up "easy money?"

If he's living in Moscow, he's being sponsored. That's a horribly expensive city.

And he had a brand new, expensive looking suit on at his last public appearance...!

Perhaps he hasn't "sold his life story" and "rebuffed offers of cash for interviews" because he has more money than he can spend at this point? Perhaps he passed up "a chance at easy money" because the ease of getting that money would have been more work than it was worth, given his current balance sheet?

I don't know if that is true, or not....but I don't know if it's false, either. And neither does the writer of this piece.

[cali]

7. That is NOT NOT NOT an editorial. It's an opinion piece

it's clearly an opinion piece.

[GliderGuider]

9. Why yes, yes, yes it is an opinion piece.

Which is why I called it that in the subject line.

[cali]

13. you changed it AFTER I posted. ack.

[GliderGuider]

15. Nope. No edits to the OP.

Perhaps you're confused because I edited my reply #9 to you to make it look cuter.

[cali]

16. I clearly am confused and I'm wrong. My apologies.

[GliderGuider]

17. Apology accepted. No problem. nt

[BluegrassStateBlues]

10. The same Richard Cohen that supports STOP AND FRISK?

In New York City, blacks make up a quarter of the population, yet they represent 78 percent of all shooting suspects -- almost all of them young men. We know them from the nightly news.

Those statistics represent the justification for New York City's controversial stop-and-frisk program, which amounts to racial profiling writ large. After all, if young black males are your shooters, then it ought to be young black males whom the police stop and frisk.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-racism-vs-reality/2013/07/15/4f419eb6-ed7a-11e2-a1f9-ea873b7e0424_story.html

Why should I give a fuck what this racist has to say about ANYTHING?

[GliderGuider]

14. Well, he admitted he was wrong about this, maybe he'll admit he was wrong about that too.

People do change their minds upon further reflection.

Sometimes.

[GliderGuider]

51. Do you have similar objections to Fox News saying it?

Or at least their tame judge...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023915678#post49

It seems like there is a belated groundswell of support for his actions, given the global conversation his revelations have kick-started.

[brush]

11. He's somewhere between . . .

a whistle blower and traitor. Maybe just a naive 20-something taken in and used by Greenwald, a late-to-the-awareness-party-46-year-old libertarian turned journalist who just seems to have become aware that NSA exists and is using his access through Snowden's stolen info to the hilt on the world stage, even to the point of lining up financial backing for his own media venture — while Snowden is stuck in Russia.

Guess who made out best on that deal?

[riderinthestorm]

18. Your continued assumption that this story is finished is amusing and naive

As events continue to unfold internationally with Snowden's revelations, his story is hardly finished. Global opinion about Snowden is transforming him into a hero.
What happens in a year when his short term visa is up in Russia will be another chapter.

You appear to be the naive one thinking the end has come for any of these players.

That Snowden isn't in a Chinese or Russian prison getting his nails ripped off in order to spill secrets tells me there's LOTS happening under the radar we don't know.

But please carry on. I stand amused as you pop up on every Snowden thread with the same idea that he's some kind of patsy.

Against all odds he's alive. Thriving actually. Still able to rattle the global scene and run rings around the US. Its pretty damn amazing actually

[brush]

19. We'll see

You mean Greenwald's revelations now? He's certainly doing okay for himself.

As for your hero worship, we'll see about that also.

[riderinthestorm]

23. Nope. No hero worship. BUT no immediate ASSumptions about the situation at this stage nt

[brush]

25. And if you've notice my other posts on Snowden . . .

Last edited Thu Oct 24, 2013, 10:34 PM - Edit history (1)

you must know that I feel Snowden could have blown the whistle anonymously without the international publicity tour and self promotion.

Guess he didn't just want to do that service to the country. Don't think it worked out too well at it looks like Greenwald is reaping all the rewards.

[Wilms]

30. If you knew who Thomas Drake is you would notice the reason he'd laugh at your assertion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake

[brush]

37. See post #21 below.

I tend to agree with that.

Your hero may have just screwed up.

He could have done the NSA reveal anonymously instead of doing the big world tour that resulted in

Greenwald reaping all the rewards.

[Wilms]

41. My "hero"?

Not sure where that came from. But OK. It's only the interweb.

[riderinthestorm]

54. Anything other than agreeing with brush that Snowden is a patsy and an idiot

means you think Snowden is a "hero".

See how that works?

[randome]

31. And without abandoning his fiance and parents.

Why do we no longer hear about his long lost love?

Classic behavior of a loner who never felt he measured up to anyone's expectations. He couldn't admit his awkwardness around what he thought were 'normal' people so he did something decidedly 'abnormal'. He stole classified documents and ran.

Just my armchair analysis, of course.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[bvar22]

66. Don't forget the boxes in his garage,

...as long as you are doing Character Assassinations and Guilt by Innuendo.

[riderinthestorm]

33. As before there's no small contingent who believe Snowden wouldn't have survived

Without taking his allegations global.

You can theorize all you like. What's indisputable is that Snowdens plan so far has worked. Your theory is untested.

I'll go for alive and still working vs disappeared in a US rendition site, Chinese prison, or Russian hell hole.

[brush]

36. Still say he could have exposed NSA anonymously. nt

[riderinthestorm]

38. Yeah. James Bond you. I think you've watched too many movies nt

[brush]

43. Anybody can buy a disposable cell phone and call a reporter.

Not rocket science — or even computer genius like your hero is supposed to be.

[riderinthestorm]

44. Go for it Bond. Your clearly the expert.

As for Snowden , I'll take the hard proof that he's still alive over your James Bond theoritics any day

[brush]

45. No, Snowden was supposed to be the computer expert . . .

yet he still couldn't figure out how to expose NSA without the "look-at-me-I'm-a-hero" international publicity tour.

[sibelian]

52. Well GOSHITY UP MY ASS!

You oughta write for TV, buddy.

[brush]

61. Well thanks for the nice words.

You really express yourself well.

BTW, I'm not the only who isn't enamoured with your hero.

See post 21 below or just go to this link. He might even be more on the money about Snowden's world tour (leaving his family and girlfriend behind, btw).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3916062

[gulliver]

21. I think Snowden is more of a well-intentioned, juvenile fuck-up than anything else.

I don't think his intentions were to betray his country. You can damage your country and society terribly without the necessary mental intentions for betrayal. That's what Snowden did. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are arguably similar.

I think there is an emotional hang-up that causes people to mis-categorize Snowden as either hero or traitor. He thought he was being a hero, and he wasn't. He didn't think he was damaging his country and society like a traitor would, but he did.

Put aside the terms traitor and hero, and all you really have is "well intentioned fuck-up" or "well-intentioned doer of good." To decide between those two, you have to be objective and ask if anyone benefited from what he did. I would argue that there hasn't been a single known objective, tangible benefit from what Snowden did. Moreover, there has also been no harm shown to have been caused by the activities he exposed.

On the other hand, the United States has suffered a great deal politically and diplomatically. The company Snowden worked for and the people he worked with suffered. He reduced net trust throughout the world. He cost a lot of people jobs and ruined careers. Also, by exposing what he exposed, by keeping people in a constant state of suspense about what he might expose next, and by fleeing to American adversaries, Snowden did heavy damage to the world's safety and security from violence and oppression.

Just a fuck-up. No more a legitimate moral agent than the flu.

[GliderGuider]

22. No, but perhaps a more moral agent than James Clapper.

Certainly better-intentioned, too.

Edited to add: "As far as I can tell..."

[riderinthestorm]

24. Links to jobs lost and careers ruined please via Snowden? nt

[brush]

26. You again

You don't think anyone's career in that company he worked for has been untouched by this?

[riderinthestorm]

27. Back it up with facts and not ASSumptions nt

[Wilms]

32. You mean all those those who's screw-ups opened the floodgate to Snowden?

They probably got promotions.

Are you new to this?

[brush]

35. Promotions? I doubt it . . .

and still say Snowden could have exposed NSA anonymously without the world publicity tour.

[Wilms]

39. I'm hung up unreasonable search.

How do you feel about that?

I mean, we shouldn't be promoting the unspeakable names of those two people.

[rhett o rick]

60. "He thought he was being a hero, and he wasn't." That pretty well sums up your

attempt to paint Snowden as a "fuck-uo." "He thought he was being a hero", really? Did he tell you this or can you read minds? "and he wasnt (a hero)." If you dont think he is a hero, that is your opinion not a fact.

All the information you know about Snowden comes from either the conservative authoritarians like Fox News, CBS, CNN, and the mighty Gen Clapper, or from the left like the Guardian. A left that is vigilant against abuses of power but OUR government that is supposed to represent us as compared to the right that wants us to have faith (blind faith) in our authoritarian leaders like General Clapper and General Alexander. I am disappointed you are choosing the side that hates whistle-blowers.

You say there is untold damage to the USofA. That may be correct but the damage was caused by those doing the illegal spying and not the one that exposed it.

[G_j]

40. Snowden’s Courage He is brilliant, humble and idealistic.

(In the latest issue of the Nation, unfortunately, I'm not a subsrciber)

Snowden’s Courage
He is brilliant, humble and idealistic.

Jesselyn Radack October 23, 2013 | This article appeared in the November 11, 2013 edition of The Nation.

http://www.thenation.com/article/176798/snowdens-courage

[ucrdem]

42. Patsy, traitor, and tea party hater.

note to Richard Cohen: you were right the first time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Kick, all but surprised at responses

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. all free people owe Edward Snowden a profound debt of gratitude - whatever he is -

[GliderGuider]

49. Even Faux News' tame judge says the same thing!

Last edited Fri Oct 25, 2013, 06:00 PM - Edit history (1)

A government of secrecy and fear -- why Edward Snowden deserves the thanks of every freedom-loving American

By Judge Andrew P. Napolitano - Published October 24, 2013 FoxNews.com

Every American who values the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, every American who enjoys the right to be different and the right to be left alone, and every American who believes that the government works for us and we don’t work for the government should thank Edward Snowden for his courageous and heroic revelations of the National Security Agency’s gargantuan spying operations.

Without Snowden’s revelations, we would be ignorant children to a paternalistic government and completely in the dark about what the government sees of us and knows about us. And we would not know that it has stolen our freedoms.

I reject the argument that the government is empowered to take our liberties -- here, the right to privacy -- by majority vote or by secret fiat as part of an involuntary collective bargain that it needs to monitor us in private in order to protect us in public. The government’s job is to keep us free and safe. If it keeps us safe but not free, it is not doing its job.

And, if all of this is not enough to induce one to realize that the Orwellian future is here thanks to the secret governments of George W. Bush and Barack Obama, Snowden also revealed that the NSA can hack into anyone’s mobile phone, even when it is turned off, and use each phone as a listening device and as a GPS to track whoever possesses it.

[bobduca]

53. Kick

Looks like the organized smear effort has dwindled a bit, the ignored NSA boosters on this thread notwithstanding.

[GliderGuider]

58. Maybe it's gotten harder to argue with the results. You can't smear reality... nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Kick

[saynotoplutocrats]

62. Snowden Politics makes for Strange Bedfellows

There is Rand Paul and Michael Moore agreeing he is a hero. Obama and Dick Cheney agreeing he is a criminal.

And how does a champion of civil rights end up a guest of the Russians? Aren't they the ones who won’t lets gays adopt children and sent pussy riot members to prison for signing songs?

[GliderGuider]

63. +1. Good noticing! nt

[okaawhatever]

64. OMFG!! He's a hero to China. He stopped the summit where Obama had absolute proof of

China's spying and was going to confront them. It was Obama's day in the sun. Billions have been stolen in intellectual property by China, not including the political spying. So Obama has the evidence (with help from a private company no less.) they've located the major source, the buildings are Chinese military building, some on the Russian border where they're likely working together and bam. Snowden reveals his stuff. Turns the entire summit into an embarassment for Obama and hands the Chinese a f'in headline. Those of you who claim Snowden is a hero and haven't read up on that, shame on you.

Greenwald has timed every story to embarass America as much as possible. If he really cared about this country, why would he do that? And why did he lie and say he wasn't holding onto documents?

Snowden said he was about protecting the American people, freedom and the illegal activity. What is illegal about spying on foreign countries? Why is it all his info is about allied countries, when the nsa mostly collects info on everyone else? He was in the building that spied on China. Why no revelations about China's many, many gross violations of privacy?
Yeah, exactly. Snowden's a f'in traitor and I only hope one day we'll have the proof of who he was really working for.

[GliderGuider]

65. OK, whatever...

[bvar22]

67. LOL. The Hard Core Deniers are still at it!

The shrieking Snowden haters are very amusing,
but not creative....just a recycling of the old Talking Points, but with a desperation that has reached comedic levels.

Kudos to the Whistle Blowers like Snowden & Manning.
They are the protectors of our Democracy,
and I pray that I would have the same courage to Do-the-Right-Thing that these two heroes have demonstrated.

It would be so much easier to just keep their mouth shut,
and do as they were told,
which is the authoritarian society many in this thread would obviously prefer.

Fuck a BUNCH of Lying Clappers,
and those who endorse and support this anti-democracy bullshit!



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[GliderGuider]

68. Yeah, the dog-whistle is starting to lose its pitch.

The thing is, with him out of the picture all they have are empty repetitions of "Traitor!" in various tones of voice.

On the side of democracy, transparency, privacy and immunity from government intrusion, we have revelation after revelation after revelation after revelation after revelation after revelation after revelation after ... you get the picture.

It kind of refocuses the debate on the issues and away from the man, nicht wahr?

[Kolesar]

79. Al Qaeda knows our methods thanks to him

Heck of a job, Edward!
/sarcasm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. We need more "traitors" like him and Manning.

[Kolesar]

83. Al Qaeda knows our methods thanks to him eom