ACA conversation with co-worker at lunch:

[reflection]

This is almost verbatim, conversation with right-wing nutjob sparring partner just now at lunch:

RWNJ: "If you look on Rush Limbaugh's website today, he's got an article that says the IRS can only collect the Obamacare fine if you have a refund. They aren't allowed to seize it from your bank account."

Me: "I'll try to verify, what's the significance though?"

RWNJ: "Well if I have a refund of $3000 coming but the fine is $4000, I just won't cash my refund."

Me: "The maximum fine for non-participation in 2014 is $95/person, or 1% of your income, whichever is greater. If you have a $4000 fine, you're making $400,000 a year and you didn't buy health insurance. That sounds pretty stupid."

RWNJ: (silence)

Me: (I eat my sandwich and just stare at him impassively)

RWNJ: "Man it's just socialism."

Me: "I just knocked your ass to the mat and you used a right-wing talking point to cushion your fall. Admit it."

RWNJ: "It's always some liberal bullshit with you."

Me: "You should read more Democratic Underground and less Limbaugh. Rub some dirt on your bruised ego. Here, let me be a socialist and buy your lunch. You get the next one."

I picked up the check. He's young, I'll get him to come around.

[Kingofalldems]

1. The truth has a liberal bias.

[TxDemChem]

43. And reality has a liberal bias.

In the back of my mind, I can't help but think many in my generation believe they are invincible.

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. He wouldn't get a check.

[reflection]

29. He hasn't yet.

He'll come around on that too.

I have faith in him. He's a disgusting little RWer, but I can tell there's a good guy somewhere underneath all that garbage. Let life give him a couple of slaps and he'll grow some empathy and common sense.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. I STILL say these guys are the ones with the "sense of entitlement".

[IrishAyes]

38. Yes, but some few may yet be turned before dragging us all over the cliff of national suicide.

Besides, I've found a certain similarity between redeemed rwnj's and former smokers: nobody hates their former addiction as much as they do, and what's more they have a tendency to want to earn their redemption by saving others from the same horrible fate.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. I tell them they have ZERO successes in their record to feel so superior....

They used to point to the "success" of the Reagan Years which in retrospect actually SUCKED.

[IrishAyes]

55. Yeah, I know.

Some situations call for nailing them to the wall; perhaps others benefit from a different approach, one that can only be determined by the person on the ground at that moment.

Far as I'm concerned, whatever works, even if it's a shillaleagh!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. I know a few that were die hard Dubya supporters who can't even remember him.

[IrishAyes]

62. Or at least they want to behave as if they don't remember him or what he did

or the fact that they voted for him. But then human memory can be capricious, can't it?

Lately I haven't noticed one of my favorite sig lines around here: "Daddy, tell me what were Republicans?"

Wouldn't you love that to be a common question.

I've had a few fun conversations with known Navy pilot vets railing against Dubya's carrier stunt. The pilot in charge that day is supposed to have had a terrible time stopping that fool from taking over actual control of the jet. Incidentally I think Navy pilots are the best. Landing on a carrier in storm-tossed seas has to be the diceiest trick in the world.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

63. I still can't believe the GOP tossed the Country Western crowd under the bus.

[dchill]

34. "grow some empathy" ...

What a great line. All Republicans need to be given that advice.

[EOTE]

3. I hope you end up catching some flies with that honey.

I try to be gracious with asses like that, but I'm usually not very successful. I hope he comes around, but I have very little patience when it comes to that type.

[reflection]

5. Man, sometimes I lose my mind

and go clean off. I'd like to pretend I'm always Mr. Suave and Debonair when discussing politics, but I can react all kinds of different ways depending on whatever baggage I'm carrying in my head at the time.

[dorkzilla]

25. I admire your fortitude!

When I'm confronted with morans like this, I RUN. I'm a really nice woman except when you get my Irish up with nonsense. Then, not only do you get my Irish up, you get my scrappy Bronx Irish up. I tend to be rather nasty and condescending when confronted by a willfully ignorant RWNJ. As I'm not at all proud of that part of my personality, I just change the subject.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

33. I keep having this in my head when I deal with a RWNJ....

[IrishAyes]

39. Understandable.

But fight for the sake of the little ones. I think Lincoln said something about the greatest victory being to turn an enemy into an ally.

No, I don't claim to have any room to talk about patience and grace. Those are not my virtues at all. Shin-kicking is, if it can be considered in the nicest light possible, such as a bright glare from the sun. But I applaud and cheer on those who are better at friendly persuasion than I am.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

45. "Shin kicking?"

Hang with Teamsters.

Try "baseball bat to the kneecaps".

[libdem4life]

4. Sometimes these lines just write themselves. Walks off, shaking head.

[BluegrassStateBlues]

6. Keep up the good work. That's priceless. nt

[silverweb]

7. Very, very classy.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Hopefully, he's still young enough to be in a somewhat open-minded learning mode.

Well done... even if you never actually win him over completely.

[bobGandolf]

8. Nice work!

Maybe you'll get him to see the light.

[Thinkingabout]

9. I have tried different tactics with RW's, they don't like being told they hate gays, blacks and

latinos and reply they don't hate these groups. Then I tell them they are not conservative. They try to explain why they are conservative and want to know who I am referring to which would be Rush, Sean and Michael Berry. I don't care if they call me liberal, I am a lifelong Democrat, plan to stay as a Democrat. In the years past a conservative was thinking fiscal but today it is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-latino, the fiscal conservatives do not recognize their party any more.

[SoapBox]

10. They are always moving the sides of the "box", to suit their needs.

...it's like trying to herd cats.

[jtuck004]

12. Joan Walsh gives a fairly coherent view of how this came about

Here.

...
This is Atwater talking to an academic interviewer in 1981, Year One of the Reagan revolution:

You start out in 1954 by saying, “N–ger, n–ger, n–ger.” By 1968 you can’t say “n–ger” — that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites … “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N–ger, n–ger.”

And then you say “Defund Obamacare,” and everyone knows why.
...

What they did was give people a whole new language to voice their racism in, one they can use in church, so to speak. Now they can fool themselves into thinking they aren't racist. But generally speaking, they are still the same Democrats that voted for Reagan, regardless of the party they are in.

[NewJeffCT]

28. good article

well stated.

[Myrina]

11. What?

"... They aren't allowed to seize it from your bank account." followed by "... if I have a refund of $3000 coming but the fine is $4000, I just won't cash my refund."

Which means - if true - they'd withhold it from any refund before they issued a check, NOT wait for you to cash the check and then take it.


Do these dipshits ever listen to themselves?

[reflection]

14. To be honest,

I wasn't really interested in discussing the mechanics of collecting the fine, I wanted to let him know his idea of what the fine is was just fubar. But yeah, if his numbers were anywhere realistic then I would have moved to your step. Like the IRS is going to issue him a refund and then say "pretty please may we have our money for that fine now?"

[Buddha_of_Wisdom]

30. Actually, whatever fine, they take away from the refund...

I've had some "back taxes" and will probably have future "back taxes" as I am working through debt settlement and these CC sharks wants to keep sticking on me, and while I am still able to get a refund, it just gets smaller because I'm paying a fine because I didn't report these as income (because they aren't - it's like a double taxation). I think we're done with that for now - I've paid twice in the past two years, and accepted the hit, and moved on.

[SheilaT]

73. I noticed that also. How does he think they'd take the fine from him at the

check-cashing point? The many layers of stupidity and ignorance here are astonishing.

[dem in texas]

13. Oh that's scary!

I thought all the right wingies were old white men, now I find out that we have young ones. too. I had heard that the Tea Party was going to get closed down by the "Grim Reaper".

[pnwmom]

15. You should have stopped before you got to "I just knocked your ass to the mat."

Before then, he was quiet -- you had him thinking. He was probably trying to figure out how much 1% of his income was.

But then you had to go in for the kill -- and ruin the whole chance to change his mind about the quality of the info he's been listening to. People who are feeling stupid and defensive aren't likely to suddenly adopt your point of view.

Too bad you lost that chance. If you have another, try to hold back once the light bulb has gone off in his mind -- don't send a rock through it.

[reflection]

17. Not bad advice.

Thanks, I'll try to remember to snap the leash on my mouth next time.

[pnwmom]

19. I know it's hard -- when you know you are SO RIGHT.

But if the aim is to change hearts and minds . . . .

[Locrian]

46. maybe not

I know some junior idiot types who look up to what they perceive as 'ass kickin'.
Turn them on to DU or even better "The Young Turks". I think 1/2 the time some of the younger crowd is attracted to being able to 'win'. It's even better if you win and you're RIGHT. (well, not RIGHT WING but you get it)>

[brush]

24. Maybe that approach works on some . . .

but some ignoramuses need to get knocked in the head before they wake up.

That particular one's silence was probably just him trying to think up a comeback.

Reflection did just fine in my book.

[Sheepshank]

16. Nicely done!!!

and a little generosity to boot!!

[angrychair]

18. to be clear

There is no fine. Period. None. The mandate is not enforceable, never was. It actually spelled out in the ACA itself. The IRS is forbidden, by law-ACA-to collect a fine.

[SnowCritter]

20. Yep! It's on page 131 of the text of the actual bill, as passed

So it doesn't matter how big a fine is levied, the IRS is forbidden to enforce collection.

[PoliticAverse]

59. Note that: If they can't deduct the amount for the tax penalty from any refund you get, the balance

accumulates (with interest) against any refund due you in future years.

[angrychair]

64. ok

But no actual ability to collect. They cannot keep or withhold a refund. The law, as written, forbids the IRS from collecting.

[PoliticAverse]

65. Yes they are authorized to deduct any ACA tax penalty from any refund you will be receiving,

but cannot use any the methods the IRS has available if you don't pay other taxes (leins, levys)
nor will you be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalties.

From: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5000A

(g) Administration and procedure
(1) In general
The penalty provided by this section shall be paid upon notice and demand by the Secretary, and except as provided in paragraph (2), shall be assessed and collected in the same manner as an assessable penalty under subchapter B of chapter 68.
(2) Special rules
Notwithstanding any other provision of law—
(A) Waiver of criminal penalties
In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
(B) Limitations on liens and levies
The Secretary shall not—
(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section, or
(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.

[BobbyBoring]

21. Limbaugh is just a bald faced liar

He told a whopper the other day. He said the MD exchange for ACA won't even be ready until November. I live in MD and it was opened Oct. 1. I wasn't working 100% but it seems to be now.

If these idiots would spend a half an hour doing research (and not on Drudge or red state) they might start to see~

[ejpoeta]

66. that's why they are told every one else is lying. they are told that fox news

and their cohorts are the only ones telling the truth. That way none of their viewers will look anywhere else for verification. And if they happen to accidentally wander anywhere else or get information from someone that comes from anywhere else they will not even listen to it because rush limbaugh and bill o'rielly have told them these people are all lying.

[brush]

22. Now that's how you handle these RW jerks

Way to go!

[cui bono]

23. What's really scary about this is that it is a perfect example of how the people who listen

to Limbaugh and company don't process what they are listening to. I mean most of the people on DU listen to shows/pundits and think about what they said and absorb it and analyze it, maybe look it up and research it further. But this guy is clearly just repeating words, not even concepts, just words. And that just shows how empty his mind is and his lack of any sort of critical thinking at all. He really is just a parrot.

It illustrates that he already has his mind made up and he listens only to have his own feelings - not thoughts or ideas, but feelings - confirmed by someone so he can feel better and justify his feelings. And those feelings are probably bigoted and so he needs this to make it okay for him to be a bigot or a racist.

There's no logic or reason behind the response "Man it's just socialism." None. It doesn't even follow the thread in the conversation. It comes out of nowhere. How did we - as what so many like to call an "exceptional" nation - allow grown up's minds to be so vapid. We're certainly not born that way.

[Half-Century Man]

56. The quickest way to shut them up about "Man, thats just socialism".

I let them know, I am a socialist. And then explain how the ACA falls far short of socialized medicine.
Then ask for a careful explanation as to why socialism is bad.

[cui bono]

57. Yep. They have no idea what they are talking about. Just parroting because they hate.

Best way to argue is keep asking them to explain their position. When it becomes apparent they can't well, then they kind of have to stop.

[Half-Century Man]

61. It's flabbergasting for one of them to run into an actual socialist.

I don't have horns or anything.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

74. That "Man it's just socialism" is key to why I think it's almost hopeless to try

to educate the indoctrinated RWers. You cannot reason with a person who cannot reason.

[PatrynXX]

26. wish I could come up with that sort of

comeback on my dads infowar/ WND BS but I can't and it really hurts to try...

[Bunnahabhain]

27. The real answer is

there would be no refund to cash as the IRS is not going to issue the refund then send a bill for 4k.

[liberalmuse]

32. Plant the seeds, my friend. Plant the seeds!

If he's young, you've just dispersed some valuable info on fertile soil. I wouldn't be surprised if he became a socialist pinko commie within 5 years.

Best response ever to a right wing "duuuuh" moment (I get stony, almost pouty silence): "I just knocked your ass to the mat and you used a right-wing talking point to cushion your fall. Admit it."

[toby jo]

47. Agree. There's something about a direct hard-hitting point that feeds their psyche.

If it's rw talking points, they're content-free but in your face. But when you can hit em right between the eyes, and there's good intelligence in it, they'll catch on sooner or later that there's just more power in the punch.

[lpbk2713]

35. They hate it when we use facts to prove them wrong.

If they weren't wrong all the time they wouldn't have to deal with it so often.

[Skittles]

36. SMOOTH

[IrishAyes]

37. I bet you will win him over before too long.

As you say, he's young but probably beginning to realize the GOP sold him a bill of goods. Sounds to me like a little backscattering already. Good on you!

[yourout]

40. Burn....

[IrishAyes]

41. And now we have front-page news that Billo's saying Obama wants to seize white's assets?

You knock off one head of the hydra and a thousand more pop up.

[The Midway Rebel]

42. LOL..."Let me be a socialist and buy your lunch"

Man, we could start a movement with that.

[yonder]

58. thats what struck a chord with me too...

..."Let me be a socialist and buy your lunch...you get the next". Isn't that what it's all about? That give and take interaction. Maybe when he's covering the next lunch, or soda, coffee or whatever, it'll dawn on him that we are all in this together, and that is exactly what people do. Or should. On whatever scale it takes. That IS the movement, isn't it?

[Thucydides]

48. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee....

[riverbendviewgal]

49. great conversation

Reminds me of my conversations with my RW brother in NJ. In fact we had a similar one today. It was about Obama care. He spouts verbatim Sean Hannity. I pointed this out to him. He ended up with the Fox talk of how all jobs are going part time. I sent him a link from a conservative economist who reported that was not true. He was ticked and said it was wrong. Then he said his daughter can not be under her husband's health insurance anymore. Spouses are no longer able to be on. I looked up her company, which is in the top 5 of the IMC. She makes more than her husband, near 6 figures annual. The company site says she has to pay part of the insurance. I did not think it would be a hardship.
As for the shutdown he echoed the Fox talk that it was a terrible hardship to have the WWII memorial shut down, I wrote back that it is a terrible hardship to not eat.

Long story short
He said he doesn't have a sister. This has played over a few times over since Obama became president. My brother hates the president because obama is black.

Sad, eh?

[PearliePoo2]

51. My brother doesn't have a sister anymore either.

I can't talk to my brother anymore. He is a Rush-bot now.

[riverbendviewgal]

52. pearlie poo

I Know how you feeling. Its is hard to believe, but my brother changed in 2001 and after his divorce. He then married a very RW woman. Their circle of friends are all Limbaugh and Hannity fans.

[Historic NY]

50. He won't cash his refund check...

well thats just precious. Bless his heart!

[ReRe]

53. He has evidently had some horrible role models.

... I bet you will make an impression on him that he will never forget and indeed will win him over. If nothing else, you will open his precious mind a little bit. "The longest transformational trip you will ever take is the trip you will take in your mind." I don't remember who said that, but it stuck with me.

[reflection]

69. I'm going to use that. Thanks.

I'm getting some real gems from DU lately.

[itsrobert]

54. A $3000 refund?

withholding too much or getting some socialist tax credit like the child tax credit.

[Swede Atlanta]

67. The point is it is NOT a fine, it is a tax.

That was the legal basis under which the Supreme Court upheld the mechanism around the individual mandate - imposing some type of financial "penalty" for not obtaining insurance. The Court held it was a tax and was therefore constitutional under Congress' taxing authority. They specifically said it is not a fine.

As to the collection mechanism it is my understanding that as you go through your tax forms it will ask you if you have obtained insurance and if not there will be a formula for determining the additional tax you owe.

Just as with any other taxes, at the end of the tax forms will be a net value. Either you owe or you are due a refund.

In this case the person would just be owed less refund. It isn't a question of cashing the refund check. They won't issue you a check for more than what you have coming whether that is a full refund or a full refund less the tax for failure to obtain insurance.

[yurbud]

68. Is Rush Limbaugh going to pick up the tab if that kid has to go to the ER or gets cancer?

That's about all you need to say.

[mikeysnot]

70. I learned in 1995 not to

discuss politics with ditto heads. total waste of time.

last time I tried was in 2005 and I was thrown to the ground by a 23 years old that was going on about what a great president Reagan was.... I asked him what was great about that period in time that when was 3 then...

Good luck with this one.

[B Calm]

71. K&R good job reflection!

[CrispyQ]

72. Nice touch, buying his lunch,

you frickin' socialist!

Good on you!!