Work begins on Calif. bullet train, locals angry

[Jesus Malverde]

Voters in 2008 approved $10 billion in bonds to start construction on an 800-mile rail line to ferry passengers between San Francisco and Los Angeles in 2 hours and 40 minutes, compared with 6 hours by car now during good traffic. Since then, the housing market collapsed, multibillion-dollar budget deficits followed, and the price tag has fluctuated wildly — from $45 billion in 2008 to more than $100 billion in 2011 and, now, $68 billion.

Political and financial compromises led officials to scale back plans that now mean trains will be forced to slow down and share tracks in major cities, leading critics to question whether it will truly be the 220-mph "high-speed rail" voters were promised.

Construction has been postponed repeatedly, and a court victory this summer by opponents threatens further delays; a Sacramento County Superior Court judge said the state rail authority's plan goes against the promise made to voters to identify all the funding for the first segment before starting construction.

Even the former chairman of the California High-Speed Rail Authority, Quentin Kopp, has turned against the current project, saying in court papers that it "is no longer a genuine high speed rail system."

In the Central Valley, there is intense distrust of the authority, which has started buying up property, land and businesses, some of which have been in families for generations.

http://www.sfgate.com/business/technology/article/Work-begins-on-Calif-bullet-train-locals-angry-4911057.php

[gopiscrap]

1. I am a firm believer in mass transit

having come from Europe I was a recipient of it's benefits. I think once it's up and running people will love it!

[Jesus Malverde]

21. Having ridden the trains of Europe and Japan I also love the idea.

The concept originally was SF to LA via a fast direct route.

This SF to LA via fresno and with turn offs for Sacramento is meant to fail and is a loser.



Phase 1 and 2 might have logically begun in urban areas, where an investment would have shown the potential benefits of the platform. A run from SD to LA for instance. However the failures in charge of this project have instead decided to literally connect NOWHERE to NOWHERE at the cost of billions of dollars for phase 1 and 2.

Phase 1 - The construction contract for the first 29 miles, from Madera (pop 61,416) to Fresno (pop 509,039), was signed on August 19 of this year.

Phase 2 which cost 1.5-2 billion will extend approximately 60 miles through the Central Valley beginning at East American Avenue in Fresno and continuing south to approximately one mile north of the Tulare-Kern County line (population 0).

http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/california-high-speed-rail-authority-iss-84982/

Meanwhile saner planners without corrupt agendas might have started in Los Angeles (pop 3,792,621), San Diego (pop 1,322,553), SFBay area pop 7.15 million.

Just to clarify the competition SFO - LAX $199 1 hour 20 minutes on southwest

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Looking at that map

I wonder if they intend to use the same rail in San Diego County that has been there like forever. The rights of way are there. But I do not think they can use the same rail.

Might be a good thing to research.

[gopiscrap]

32. that's excellent

[demosincebirth]

55. It is going to be the biggest money pit of all times. I live in Ca. and I've seen projects started

by the state and triple and sometimes quadrupled in cost. One example, the new Oakland span of the Bay bridge tripled in cost. Retrofitting the old span would have cost sixty percent less and served the same purpose.

[ripcord]

59. I'm worried that this isn't going to make it through the courts

The ballot proposition language set a time and speed limit that the project has to make and with all the changes there is no way it can happen.

[libdem4life]

2. This is nothing new for California. The Century Freeway in LA took nearly that long...not really,

but it seemed like it.

[Tikki]

3. I am totally for this.

Tikki

[Cleita]

4. The Central Valley is dominated by Freepers, Tea Baggers

Ayn Randians and other such wacko conservative types. Yes, there are Democrats but they are outnumbered. No wonder they are against this.

[Niceguy1]

5. people are not

people aren't being properly compensated for their losses

[Cleita]

6. Then you need to get your elected politicians on it.

Oh wait, they elect Republicans. Well, good luck there.

[Niceguy1]

7. umm, its

Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Dems... and nobody cares. Progress and all, gotta Have the train, who cares about the effects on the people? We need hsr for the rich.

[cui bono]

10. I can't make out your text speak. n/t

[Iggo]

11. Huh?

[Le Taz Hot]

18. No . . .

in Fresno County registered Democrats outnumber registered Republicans. Look it up. Or, you can continue to spread the same old lies over and over and over . . . just like Faux Nooz. And the opposition is coming from a FEW well-connected and monied interests. Not all of us are against this.

[Cleita]

38. Dearie, you are so caught up in Fresno, you forget about

Bakersfield and other places. Fresno is a very small place in the whole Central Valley. I worked for the only Democratic candidate to run against Kevin McCarthy way back when and got pretty familiar with the demographics there. It seems you are the one who is trying to tailor facts to your narrative.

[reddread]

42. horseshit

Fresno is a big city and county, and the fixation on freepers, the base hatred people have for other people is where the lens gets bent.
the vital, growing progressive, anti-war community in Fresno takes a backseat to nobody. Keep pushing those overgrown bigotries about a community you and others completely fail to recognize while pushing the Freeper boogie man. its unreal how ignorant people can be about a town filled with some of the best folks anywhere. Huge demographic of Democrats, ACTIVE progressives (the kind you dont see online) blacks and hispanics.
THAT is who the bigots are dismissing as freepers. if you ever took a headcount of the miniscule local freeper population you would know just how dumb it is to play them up while COMPLETELY IGNORING several thousand VERY serious Democratic activists and community workers. Not to mention the tremendous work of Peace Fresno and the many other groups working out of the Center for Non-Violence and the several very impressive churches in the area. CATCH A CLUE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_California_cities_by_population

the city proper is over a half million with nearly another 100k right next door pretending CLovis isnt Fresno.
Over a million in the county, and if you like almonds or grapes or oranges you like Fresno.

[Cleita]

43. And everyone seems to miss that when we talk of the

Central Valley, it's not exclusive to Fresno. Wow, it's so important that people forget that the Central Valley is more than half a million people in Fresno!

[reddread]

63. the fourth largest city in CA

actually much larger than that when you realize that the 100k directly adjacent, not to mention the other 330k in several nearby towns
all stand to benefit from something better than that raggedy joke called 99.
Fresno is all that matters in the central valley. You can have Bakersfield and Modesto.
Be my guest.
You are the one missing the point,
you should acknowledge that all of your facts are
not that but completely WRONG opinion,
"dearie"

[Cleita]

66. Apparently there is no talking to someone who can't

understand that their city isn't the center of the universe. Good day.

[reddread]

75. Five Points is the center of the universe

Glad I could clarify that for you.
As if the actual center has anything to do with making a BIG improvement
in a BAD transit situation.
So many tea party talking points being regurgitated here, and all you care about is
what Fresno means to the people who actually live there?
Good Night!

[Cleita]

79. Just to be clear, in my original post I didn't mention Fresno.

I was talking about the Central Valley and that I-5 corridor that I have been up and down hundreds of times in my lifetime from Los Angeles all the way to Oregon and beyond. You Fresno paranoids jumped in and made it all about Fresno, a place I have been through only going to the Sierras so it's really unimportant to me and most travelers who take it to get to the north of the state.

Now if you guys don't like the train going through there, there are other routes they could take. You will miss out on the tourist traffic going to Yosemite and elsewhere, but I guess you will be quite happy to let some other burg benefit.

[reddread]

82. here is the problem- you keep lumping people together

I dont think there is any helping you, you just make less and less sense.
But you may be right, we should build a high speed train over Highway 1 for your convenience.
Why would anyone want to drive that road?

[Cleita]

86. If you see that in my post that also mentioned that the Democrats are

outnumbered there, I don't know what to say. That is hardly lumping people together. It's time to look at the truth and the State of California website has all the statistics about people's political affiliations in each county. You can have your own opinion but not your own facts.

[reddread]

92. the force of hate is strong here

IT DONT MATTER WHAT PARTY ANYONE IS IN,
the environment and transit problems are universal.
WAKE UP.

[Jesus Malverde]

70. I need to make a point to check it out.

Nice post, representing California's flyover country.

[Cleita]

47. I'm looking at the route and it does go through Fresno.

Is this what you are objecting to? I would prefer that it followed the coast myself but I guess having to skirt over the hills would be tricky or at least more expensive to build.

[A HERETIC I AM]

56. It's going to have to "skirt over hills" no matter what.

Palmdale is 2600' up in the air.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

64. Yeah, stupid rubes.

Only a moron would balk at giving up their livelihood they've spent generations building for a boondoggle that's costing 7 times the stated cost with no real compensation for themselves. And then to go crying about it? What? Do they think they live in a democracy or something?

They're such idiots.

[Cleita]

67. Actually, they stand to benefit from it, but I'd rather

they would build it along the coast. It's way more scenic and we would have appreciated it more. The valley guys can bask in the hot sun and the chemically poisoned air back in the nineteenth century and are welcome to it.

[reddread]

76. talk about self centered

the air in the valley is a lot less vile while youre in your special place.

[Cleita]

81. My "special place" is just as right wing and conservative as yours so

we have our problems with agricultural chemicals like you do and a nuke plant sitting on a couple of earthquake faults that's a Fukushima in the making, but our right wingers fight any change on those things too. But at least I acknowledge the prevalence of this cuckoo mentality where I live and don't attempt to make it seem all okay.

You seem to be defending them which only proves what I said to begin with.

[reddread]

84. lol

carry on. Too many things to do to waste time here.

[Cleita]

88. Good. I get tired of trying to educate those

who prefer fairy tales to the truth.

[reddread]

93. the day you can educate me aint coming

shame on your hateful indifference to progress.

[TeamPooka]

8. There are always NIMBY issues when building our country's infrastructure.

[Initech]

27. Yup. Best example of NIMBYs:

In Orange County where I live the Tustin Marine Corps air base closed and there was a huge proposal to convert it into an international airport and close down John Wayne. Turning it into a huge airport would have been the logical choice. This also would have helped clear traffic from LAX and allowed the modernization plan to proceed much quicker than it has. But what did the voters do instead? Vote to turn the land into a fucking shopping mall, when this county is nothing but shopping malls.

[TeamPooka]

36. more jobs and better pay at an airport too. I'm in LA so I know of that story

[Initech]

41. Orange County is ultra red and upper class.

People here vote with their Mercedes over what should be the benefit of the people and their own best interests.

[rufus dog]

60. Wow, where to even start, so many errors in your post

1. It was the El Toro Marine base which is about six mile southeast of the Tustin Marine Base.
2. The defined plan was bullshit, it was to leave JWA open AND use the existing runways at El Toro.

So the plan called for two operating airports less than 10 miles apart, which appears to be a lame idea. But it gets better, the existing runway at El Toro points directly at JWA so planes would take off directly into the path of takeoff and landings at JWA.

Now the Newport Beach crowd tried to lie up a storm and claim the planes could take off the other way, towards the foothills, with a prevailing tailwind, on a runway that slanted uphill. Their proof?.... jets did it all the time there,.... Fighter Jets!

Basically a pile of bullshit equal to tea baggers, and like the baggers the were exposed. They were so enamored with their own bullshit that they proposed a test using a wide variety of commercial air crafts and off duty pilots. The County ponied up millions and over a weekend they were going to have about 25 takeoff and landings to prove airplanes could takeoff towards a mountain, with a tailwind, using a runway with an uphill slant.

I believe three or five planes actually took off. Because the pilots refused to take off, uphill, with a tailwind, into the foothills, even with empty planes. Go Figure!

So the proposed airport was far from a logical choice. In fact the proposed plan was so illogical that even with the backing of Newport Beach money and the Orange County Register, the voters rejected it after the joke of a test that any logical person had concluded prior to the test.

[reddread]

65. you're bringing facts to circular firing squad? how rude

It is astonishing how far resentment based in ignorance and prejudice goes around here.
People who wish to deny substantive progress to other people based on their geography,
and some completely bigoted notions about who is what.
the word stupid is about the politest one I can wring out.
Facts have no place in this discussion, and you should feel a little odd
bringing them to bear, I imagine.

[Retrograde]

9. Quentin Kopp's still around?

That explains the early plans and the focus on grand "futuristic" stations over something actual people will use.

The original plans were rather bloated and grandiose: there was a proposal to build an elevated track - essentially a wall - through my town, with a parking structure for several thousand vehicles that would occupy most of the downtown business district. Cooler heads pointed out that for a fraction of the cost they could improve the existing tracks (which have been here for 150 years and still work fine), put in more grade separations so they could run more and faster trains, and get the thing done in a normal human lifetime.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. You have to force Californians to make improvements and the entire time they

will whine that no one will use the system, this is what they did with Metrorail in Los Angeles. Even after is was up and running and carrying tens of thousands a day some would insist that 'no one rides those trains'.
Plus the Central Valley is full of atavistic status quo loving right wingers who want their labor pool to be stuck and without options.

[Mr.Bill]

20. It was the same way with BART in the bay area.

Now 400,000 people ride it to work every day. And with the strike, everybody is getting schooled on how important it is.

[former9thward]

49. BART does not equal LA Metrorail.

Totally false equivalence. Plus the patterns of where people live and work are completely different in the two cities.

[Mr.Bill]

50. Did I say BART equaled LA Metrorail?

What I meant was that people in California seem to resist construction of mass transit systems, wherever and whatever they are. I was agreeing with Bluenorthwest's post.

[former9thward]

51. As the OP points out this is not mass transit.

At least not mass transit as promised by the initiative. It will never go 220 mph and with the security delays it will the same length of time as a air flight (door to door). The state does not have $65 billion for this and that is the current estimates. That will probably double or triple in the future years. The first leg of this has nothing to do with LA and SF but is going from nowhere to nowhere.

[Mr.Bill]

52. I'm not sure they are starting the project in the right place either.

But if you are going to build it, you have to start somewhere. BART originally went to places where not a lot of people lived and commuted to San Francisco. Guess what, a lot of people live there now and commute to San Francisco. And anything that moves large amounts of people is mass transit in my book. Just because it's not taking people back and forth to work doesn't mean it's not mass transit.

Our opinions differ, but I think we can't afford to not build it. And I say this knowing it will not come within 100 miles of my house and at my age I may not even live long enough to use it.

[TheMightyFavog]

13. *sigh* Some of this funding was supposed to come our state's way...

But one fo the first things our idiot teabagger governor did was proudly reject the funding after the feds told him he couldn't transfer it to road building.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

14. And OF COURSE we can't have a route to Vegas....

That would invoke Republican outrage which must be avoided at all costs.

[libdem4life]

15. Ha...but guess who would be the majority of those Bat Out of Hell Drivers off to Sin City

[Spitfire of ATJ]

34. To listen to the Right Wing it's fine upstanding hubands giving in to temptation...

They honestly expect people to believe some straight as an arrow Howard Cunningham type is going to ditch the family in Disneyland and run over to the high speed rail for a "quick trip" to Vegas for a few hours of SIN before returning by the same high speed rail. (It takes 45 minutes to fly by airbus but let's forget that)

Either that or they believe that Vegas and Anaheim having a rail connection will give Mickie and Donald cooties.

[libdem4life]

37. Hadn't thought of the tourists in Disneyland idea. Was thinking more of the locals.

But Mickie and The Donald! Two marketing geniuses. From Mickey (and the Donald Duck) to The Donald's casinos door to door. That route would pay for itself right quick.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

39. That is a very busy corridor between LA and Vegas....

They don't even have REGULAR rail service anymore.

There are only three ways to get there, by air, by car and by bus but the bus route is a JOKE. It makes so many out of the way stops that it becomes a 12 hour ordeal.

[libdem4life]

40. Just noticed on the map that the eastern route is Victorville to Vegas..kind of defeats the purpose.

Was fun to think about, however. From Disneyland to Sin City and back in bullet train.

But SF to Fresno to LA...can not see that happening any decade soon.

[jeff47]

78. Basically, they didn't think it was possible to get the rights to go any closer to LA.

At least, not in the near future. So the plan was to have a giant parking lot in Victorville and start serving passengers.

That basic service would provide some of the cash and prove the need for expanding it towards LA.

Which would then lead to the gigantic battles over displacing the freeways or freight rail lines currently occupying all of the mountain passes between LA and the high desert.

[libdem4life]

83. Make sense. Few things more depressing than a "giant parking lot in Victorville", however?

And by the time you're in Victorville and traveling by auto, might as well keep going, as I recall, it's pretty straight and flat from there. It's kind of like the ideas of splitting into two states...the North and South. After a while, you just lose track...(oh well, pun unintended but left it anyway.)

[Egalitarian Thug]

68. Of course not. That would be half the distance, a third the cost, and be profitable almost

immediately, mustn't have that happen else people might get the idea that high speed rail is both workable and a good idea.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

69. Even standard rail was VERY popular. They used to have a "gamblers express"....

I think they still do to Atlantic City.

[Egalitarian Thug]

73. Two out of every three dollars that comes into Las Vegas comes through SoCal.

There are miles-long traffic jams every weekend on the 15 and every one of those people would have gladly handed over $50 to avoid that particular Hell.

As I've said many times before, this boondoggle is going to end up an 800 mile long monument to corporate victory over people. A few people will get some work and a few really rich people will get a lot richer and once the inevitable budget-blowing "unforeseeable unknown" crops up, they'll just walk away claiming that this just won't work in America.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

74. There is no high speed rail in America and people want it so OF COURSE they can't have it...

It's electric and clean and fast and the oil companies HATE IT. It's like every monorail program. They open with a bid and then end up bankrupting the city building it. It is NEVER treated as a serious form of transportation. It's treated like a ride. Vegas has one. No WAY will they ever use it to connect the strip to the airport. That would mean a monorail could be seen as something practical and a rival to a cab or a shuttle.

Oh, and you can FORGET the idea of Disneyland running it's monorail to John Wayne or LAX. What do you think this is? Tomorrowland?

[Egalitarian Thug]

91. It's interesting comparing the contrasting corruptions of SF/LA/California and Las Vegas/Nevada.

In both, most of the money ends up being stolen by their respective owners, but the excuses and machinations of the processes are so different.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

94. In Vegas there is a strong cab union.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

87. Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't chart the course between Vegas and Palm Springs.

[Nevernose]

77. They are building a route to Vegas

But the latest iteration has it stopping in Victorville, requiring a 45 mile drive to link up to the rest of the upcoming CA train system.

This might actually be convenient for Southern California travelers, but it's useless for Southern Nevadans. It seems kind of dumb to leave out a city bigger than San Diego or San Francisco (though not the Bay Area itself), a city that's culturally practically a suburb of LA.

[jeff47]

80. It's a rights issue

The mountains around LA mean there isn't a whole lot of good routes from the high desert to the city. And they're all currently occupied.

Moving things like major freight rail lines or freeways out of the way of a high speed rail line isn't gonna happen any time soon. So the plan was to start with service from Victorville to prove the idea worthwhile, and then tackle getting into LA proper.

[Nevernose]

89. Partly

Running it straight into LA was originally the plan, but the rights were too expensive. The back-up plan was to then build a spur from Victorville to Palmdale iirc, but then that was also cancelled because right of way was too expensive. So now there's a train from Las Vegas to Victorville.

Have you ever been to Victorville? Even the people who live there think it's a hellhole. (Joke!)

[jeff47]

90. Yep, I've driven that route multiple times.

Victorville isn't wonderful, but it's nicer than driving the whole way.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

85. The only way it makes sense is if it's stage one....

If you travel through the Cajon Pass by standard Amtrak to transfer to the straight line high speed rail with future plans to complete high speed rail the rest of the way.

Then again, look at Norwalk. That's where light rail ends before it crosses into OC. Logic would dictate that there should be light rail all along the coast too. There are plenty of examples of not only a lack of cooperation in the name of the common good but out and out rivalry and even hostility in the spirit of team sports. The LA vs OC game is getting old but the Conservatives in OC act like mixing with LA types will poison their kids of something.

[Mr.Bill]

16. There is a huge error in the whole premise of the story

as presented in the first paragraph of the OP. It says the voters voted on the 10 billion for the train (which is true) and SINCE THEN, the housing market collapsed and billion dollar budget deficits happened.

The housing markets collapsed and the deficits were there years before the train was approved by the voters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. And the state is in positive territory currently

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/15/jerry-brown-creates-california-surplus-miracle-but-can-it-last.html

[Mr.Bill]

22. It's hilarious when teabaggers say all the wealthy people will leave California

while Mitt Romney is building a huge mansion here. I guess he knows something they don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I went to the doc the other day

I went early. So I signed up for a local wifi. In my list of available networks was one Mitt Romney.

No, I did not feel like going to look for him, but he was this close.

[Mr.Bill]

25. I would love to meet Mitt Romney face to face.

I would tell him what a filthy disgusting excuse for a human being he was.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Yeah but he is a private citizen now

in the middle of the race, sure.

[Mr.Bill]

28. I still have the same opinion of him.

The only difference is that in the middle of the race you wouldn't have gotten close enough to him to say anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Depends, as Press we get to places some people don't

As to my view of him, it is not something I let out. Like with Ron Paul, we covered the rally too, is all but positive.

[Mr.Bill]

30. Of course it's different for the press.

I was educated in Journalism, but never took that career path. I speak as a private citizen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I was educated in History

took the vocation during Occupy, and at times shake my head at the young reporters who insert their own views into straight reporting. (Kids that is what the editorial pages are for, and they should never, ever be the same)

[Mr.Bill]

33. You are correct.

My Journalistic training was in the 60s. True Journalism is just about dead in this country.

There is no Journalism on TV. It's all entertainment. That's not all bad. I enjoy watching some of it, but it's just not Journalism.

[yuiyoshida]

17. I for one look forward some day to riding that

from the Bay Area down to LA to visit friends!

[JI7]

35. That area is Full of Wingnuts who believe Conspiracy Theories about Govt

[reddread]

95. thats just me

[Rex]

44. What is Calif? Is that like Cali?

[Cleita]

45. Calif. was the abbreviation we once used on envelopes before

we became CA. I have no idea where Cali came from.

[Rex]

46. Slang from somewhere.

I know and older couple from California that called it Cali and I've heard it over the years, but not used as a mainstay. They are from San Diego.

[Jesus Malverde]

48. Interesting calif.

possibly to clearly distinguish between ca and co before the zip code system.

[Mr.Bill]

53. I'm sure there are provisions for this,

but I would like to see the details of how they plan to provide for the security and the safety of the tracks. Seems like they would be a potential target for terrorists and saboteurs.

[LeftyMom]

57. In that part of the state the biggest risk would be terrorist cows on the track.

[LeftyMom]

54. They're using just about the stupidest possible route,

and building the least useful part first. You couldn't possibly come up with a worse use for infrastructure money unless you decided to build an international airport in Susanville or a mass transit system in Weed.

[Jesus Malverde]

71. +1

I drove through the town of Weed this summer, nice place.

Stopped at a bookstore/wreathbarn and the nice lady convinced me to drive up to Ashland and Grants Pass to make it over to the coast instead of 299 what a great suggestion spending the night in crescent city.

Needs a wreath? Check out http://www.dawsonwreathbarn.com hand made in Weed, Calif.

[Throd]

72. +2

[JDPriestly]

58. Anything would be better than what we have now even if it is a little slow in the cities.

If you try to go to San Francisco up the coast by train, you have to take buses part of the way. The tracks do not go through.

I think you can go from LA to Sacramento via Bakersfield by train, but we really need a train connection that is faster than regular trains. Air traffic pollutes a lot, and we need an alternative.

[Live and Learn]

61. Of course it can be built and of course it will have cost overruns.

Nearly all government projects using private contractors have cost overruns. It is part of the game, bid low then insist on more.

Don't forget we are getting federal funds for the project too and we need the money and jobs in California. I for one look forward to having increased traveling options (something we are sorely lacking).

[grahamhgreen]

62. Needs to be high speed.