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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Crazy Left
Just want to check in as a Proud Member.
From time to time we have to do this as the Moral Equivalency meme makes its way to DU. You know the one, it takes various forms of this:
The 'Crazy Left' it appears are those who support the prosecution of Criminals, no matter how wealthy or connected they are.
It's a Crazy Left radical idea, apparently, to want the Law applied equally to all Americans.
If you have any 'Crazy Left' ideas such as 'Prosecute War Criminals' or an even crazier idea than that, eg: 'Prosecute Wall St. Criminals',feel free to post them here.
It's easy to forget what we stand for as Democrats these days, what with all the 'pragmatism' around.
So, I would love some reminders of our Principles so we don't forget what the goals are.
One of my favorite Crazy Left ideas is:
Hands Off Social Security!
One of my favorite Democratic Presidents is this guy:
Which also ensures my place on the 'crazy left' list I have been told.
And I am more than proud to be there.
Moral Equivalency = Not-so-subtle attack on Democrats.
Squinch
(51,021 posts)But NOT this: >>>>>>>>>>>>
Cleita
(75,480 posts)replacing "bleeding heart liberal", "tree hugger" and so on.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)has always been viewed as such a threat to right wingers who are more than willing to avail themselves of all the benefits that came from the Left? I've asked them that, some actually DENY that SS was a 'Left' idea. Lol, talk about 'uninformed'!
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)See, if we insist on leaving SS alone, then the president's chess mastery will be thwarted, thus preventing a big (D) onslaught next year, meaning he'll have to cave in even MORE. the president himself said recently that the extremists in the Dem party are a problem akin to the teabaggers in the GOP. Be pragmatic! Don't let the perfect (lower the SS and Medicare eligibility age to, say 55), be the enemy of the good (small cuts that you'll hardly notice).
Sincerely,
3rd way Doctor_J
KR
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)surfaced so frequently lately.
My only hope i that since people are far more informed now than they were even a decade ago, none of this is going to resonate with voters in 2014.
SS is STILL the Third Rail of Politics. Paul Ryan mistakenly thought that this was no longer the case when he advised Bush to go out and promote the privatization of SS in all 50 states. I don't think he made it to three states before he had to go back home.
I think this nonsense is once again being fed, this time to our own leaders, that SS is no longer the Third Rail of politics. They never learn, do they?
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Taking a page out of the book of conservatives, how about Bernie Sanders push just to raise the cap for payments into social security to those somewhere above two hundred thousand where it should of been long ago if you are considering real inflation.
The problem is the wealthy have put themselves in the seats to determine what wealth is and how much of it should be taxed. The poor are told by these same people that they already have too much and at this same time there are those among them who can't even remember that they have a extra pair railroad lines in their portfolio
bvar22
(39,909 posts)That crazy Leftist idea was a major Campaign Promise from THIS presidential candidate in 2008, and one of the few policy issues that clearly separated him from Hillary Clinton in the Democratic Primaries and Debates.
Of course,
Raising-the-CAP was never mentioned again after Jan 21st, 2009.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Any time you see one of those you can rest assured the person using it is center at best and simply cannot stand anyone criticizing any other "center at best" politicians.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Crazy left is the new term. Please do try to keep up.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)What about fringe left, also pre-shutdown I guess.
villager
(26,001 posts)...Chamber-of-Commerce spawned talking points.
Much easier to use the recycled snark!
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)They are common sense and good for society. Good examples of crazy left can be found in history books involving failed communism.
RC
(25,592 posts)The real Left is in that blank area where the sign is hanging. Many people think that the real center is what is labeled Center Right and sometimes even Solid Right, even here on DU.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)I gotta fix that.
We will know for absolutely sure, if there is another shutdown. There will be no excuses to correct the errors that led to the last one. There is plenty of time to do that... If they really wanted to.
Done fixed it.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Although I did get the idea from something similar. I redid it from scratch and gave it the tilt.
Ace Acme
(1,464 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 04:40 PM - Edit history (2)
What you call "Center Right" is SOCIALISM!
Public schools, public transportation, public highways--all socialism.
RC
(25,592 posts)What is now called the Center Right, used to be the Far Right. That has never been Socialism. Your examples used to be Main Stream.
Maybe this will help you to see the lay of the land.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Anyone who doesn't like it can go Cheney themselves!
(Proud member of the Dirty Hippie Society)
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Happy to report.
lark
(23,158 posts)Glad to meet more fellow far left and proud of it folks
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Got to make our voices heard.
historylovr
(1,557 posts)BluegrassStateBlues
(881 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)when you are poor or middleclass. It's our money.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)tomp
(9,512 posts)Faygo Kid
(21,478 posts)Cirque du So-What
(25,988 posts)because I stand for all those things you mentioned - and more. For my contribution to what makes me 'crazy,' I'll go on record as advocating for consensus-building as opposed to imposition of purity tests upon candidates and members. It goes back to my belief that the 1% rely upon divisiveness to maintain the upper hand, and divisiveness of any sort works to their benefit. IMO the biggest mistake made by the 'new left' was abandonment of the coalition that persisted from the New Deal era to the Nixon years - paving the way for Ronnie Raygun's election. We must strive to attract environmentalists as well as union members back into another coalition that stands opposed to further accumulation of wealth and power by these modern fascists.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)supported when polls ask only about issues. We need to find a way to push those policies even in 'red' areas. It can be done imo.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)If you are indeed a true lefty, sorry but you're not crazy at all. Your way makes far more sense to me. I for one sometimes get fed up by the most extreme left adherents referring to people like myself as a Center-Right or Third Way. A good lefty is a pragmatic lefty in my book. Otherwise valuable energy lies wasted on the field of ideological 'purity'.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)which is as close to a radical left movement as we've had in a great while. And of course OWS wasn't advocating anything remotely as irrational as shutting down government or freezing the debt limit.
I keep thinking we need to hear more from actual radical lefties, because apparently without them, things like those you mentioned -- equal treatment under the law, Social Security, etc., -- are cast as the moral equivalent of a right wing actually electing people who think little of derailing the entire government to prevent something as benign as health insurance reform.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)And all Occupy wanted was fairness under the law, justice for the fraudsters that destroyed the economy and were rewarded for it. It wasn't a radical idea at all.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)spectrum 1947-68; for a while (1970-80) people were doing dangerous things like investigating Vietnam and the CIA, questioning Merck and Dow and Monsanto, treating other countries as more than just spear-carriers to our global drama, and even asking nonwhites about the medicines they used and their filthy barbarian "culture"!
Reagan fused the right-libertarians, rabid Cold Warriors, Religious Right, and corporatists into the party we know and love today; after 1994 there were no more O'Neils or Ted Kennedys at the forefront of our own party, causing an increase in both bipartisanship agreement *and* vicious fighting and gridlock (remember--Eurasia doesn't really love *or* hate Oceania); lefty rhetoric is still employed by Dems against GOPers and hijacked by Paulbots and Sowellites, but only to further Reaganesque policies foreign and domestic
US politics hasn't been moving *apart*, it's been moving *right*, even though 70-90% of Americans want things that neither leaders are talking about (real gun registration, SS, Plan E, peace, no fracking, more and greener infrastructure, real mortgages, schools that teach more than test, Newer Deals) (I mean, if we really are as polarized as the Vital-Center talking heads say, the Tea Party would've been crushed at the same time as OWS last year--let alone been allowed to swarm the WH and have limbless vets tote barricades around...)
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
Peaceful street protests are leftwing extremism, but derailing government to stop moderate health care reform is somehow within reason?
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)when the going gets crazy, the crazy left turns pro.
K&R
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)turn pro? We've been conceding a lot of ground to the Third Way having been told that we must 'compromise' in order to 'get things done'. Well now we see that when we DON'T compromise, we win.
So, I'm looking forward to seeing, eg, the Chained CPI removed from the President's budget since there is simply no more reason for such compromises.
I'm ready to turn Pro and start getting things done!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Are we the black helicopter left, emotarians, Neo-DU, Professional Left, the perpetually disgruntled, peace purists, libertarian sympathizers, Rand Paulbots, or foot stamping children today?
xchrom
(108,903 posts)nafta
welfare reform
voting for illegal wars
just my top 3 examples of centrist nihilism.
radicals indeed.
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)It is an astroturf movement, after all.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And may well be true.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Third Way "Democrats" love the Tea Party crazies because it gives them room to move further right.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)with ideas they would have rejected outright if they were coming from the Right, which in effect they were.
We were all caught up in protecting our 'team' and even though people felt uncomfortable with some of the policies, the went along. That has to stop.
They are clever, those Corporate Puppet Masters. Buying one Party wasn't enough and they realized it. So they infiltrated our Party. Now we have to reverse that, now that we know.
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)I believe climate change should be our number one priority as a nation. New building requirements, loans for new energy saving technologies for homeowners, legislation on water use/emissions/transportation, urban greening. No planet, no us.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I completely support them, all of them!
BluegrassStateBlues
(881 posts)ljm2002
(10,751 posts)Blanket the rooftops with solar panels -- thus revitalizing the country with new jobs and industry. New buildings and developments should be required to meet stringent efficiency standards and to use green energy. Less use of fossil fuels all around. Transportation must be addressed, by building high speed rail for long hauls, and acknowledging we will have to drive less, and fly less. And we must fund research on ways to ameliorate the damage that has already been done, hopefully finding ways to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)means more jobs. Yes!
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Super great for the environment!
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...hemp is useful for so many things, including fabric and paper, hemp oil, just so many things -- and it is much more renewable than trees.
on point
(2,506 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 19, 2013, 02:31 PM - Edit history (1)
By vast amounts people support the 'Maddow' agenda:
Huge cuts to the military
Restore higher taxes on the wealthy
AND NO
cuts to medicare or social security
Want to balance the budget, then tax the people who created it under the 'suppyside' economic con
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Huge cuts to the military and higher taxes on the wealthy are centrist ideas, not radical leftist.
Fla Dem
(23,765 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)First, the people on SS OWN that money. It should go to them.
Second, it would stimulate the economy without costing the Fed Budget anything.
Third, it would keep it out of the hands of the thieves who have been borrowing from it for wars and tax cuts for the wealthy which might put a serious dent in their plans for even more wars.
Thanks for yet another example of crazy left ideas.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)If you are a citizen who gets paid, by any form of compensation, should pay into the general pool of social security.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)currently doing.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Most have been bought and paid for by the same people that own the Republicans.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)A worker's democracy instead of the dictatorship of capital.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)We need to restore Labor Standards, that's for sure and a livable wage.
Another crazy idea I've had for a while. If a Corporation chooses to outsource to get cheaper labor, unless they adhere to US Labor Laws they get zero subsidies or tax breaks. I thought that was a pretty reasonable idea, but apparently not?
Fla Dem
(23,765 posts)Corporations that outsource over 50% of their production get no tax breaks, subsidies and no government contracts.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Why on earth should they be rewarded for outsourcing jobs? I have no problem with them moving to China if they think they can do better there, but NOT with the benefits that were meant to help create jobs HERE. It makes no sense.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)gets expropriated and given to the workers to run? "Not enough profit" is no longer an excuse to screw workers. Also I'd add in tax breaks and low or no interest loans to workers who want to run businesses as a co-op.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)40 hrs, in 8 hr shifts. Going above standard deserves extra compensation based on known rates.
Over 8, over 40 should be at time and a half.
Over 12, over 60; should be double time.
Exemptions regulated for certain jobs requiring persons being on "stand-by".
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)hours you got time and a half?
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)But not legally binding.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)one time. I agree, it should be mandatory imho.
vlakitti
(401 posts)It needs to be repeated over and over again.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Welcome to DU BTW.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)America desperately needs more "crazy leftists" like you.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Welcome to DU. www.workerspower.net. We have a plank in the programme about pot and other substances too.
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)I feel like the legalization movement has gotten too pro-business since Libertarians made it one of their main issues, and now people are basically ignoring the medical aspect of it. It's good to know there are others who support legalization for people, instead of for profit hungry capitalists.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)allan01
(1,950 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,426 posts)Thanks for the thread, sabrina.
G_j
(40,372 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)that all of the Democratic party should be out there talking about.
Recommended.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)of what it means to be a Democrat, love your posts on Education. Great to see you and thanks for posting in my thread.
Another crazy idea you reminded me of, hands off the Public School Funding or Private Profiteers.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Blue is my favorite color!
Lol!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)you mention in your sig... would the town in question be my beloved Cambridge? After all, it's probably about the most Liberal lunatic town in America per your graphic, no?
If not Cambridge, then into which town do you want to insert the Hose of Doom?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)any move that might expose the bankruptcy in the notions that the "serious people" constantly foist off on the cynical, the dim-witted, and the childishly gullible.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)K&R
cui bono
(19,926 posts)(And that means no storing of my data for possible future use either, collecting is still spying whether you look at it now or later.)
Free college for everyone.
Raise the SS caps.
Taxes back to the rates under Clinton.
Corporations, especially those that make $25bn/yr in profits, should pay their fair share of taxes.
Corporations should pay extra taxes if the military is used for their gain.
No corporate use of public lands for profit.
Caps on how much CEOs make as compared to their workers. (no hiding it in bonuses either)
A living wage.
Tariffs on imported goods so that it won't benefit companies to offshore/outsource our jobs out of the country.
Re-regulate Wall Street and the banksters. (reinstate Glass-Steagall for starters)
25 cents tax per transaction for stock trading.
Same tax rates for income made by labor or by investments/capital gains.
Phew. I'm tired.
But not too tired to add a few more.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Thanks for the list, I support everything on it.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)The Democratic Party should adopt each and every one as their basic platform.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)But here on DU, my experience has been that advocating these things will get you called the "fringe left" or some other name - will even get you told you are not wanted or needed in the Dem Party - when they are defending a certain someone who is doing something that goes against this list.
loudsue
(14,087 posts)except I'd like to see tax rates for the rich restored to those rates we had under Eisenhower. At least for 10 years.
A 90% tax rate on any income over $2 or $5 million would be MORE than fair. The capitalist class REALLY thinks they don't need the people who work for them. They think they're entitled to EVERYTHING they can get.
Oh....and a 90% tax on all inheritance over $5 million aught to stop some of the bullshit.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Thom Hartmann has talked a lot about why those rates were high and why there is an estate tax, to keep the wealth from consolidating and being handed down, to keep the US from becoming an aristocracy. But the RW has really instilled this me/mine mentality in their followers, even the have nots. We need to get back to a "we" society instead of a "me" society, as Hartmann always says.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Missed a few though
No incorperations of persons for tax exempt status (avoiding the "death tax" .
Pre-Raygun tax rates
To name two.
Kermitt Gribble
(1,855 posts)REALLY like this idea - this is first time I've seen it proposed.
Great list, and I'd add remove the age restrictions for Medicare.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I'm tired of my tax dollars going to those who make $25bn/yr in profit. And that's on top of them not paying any taxes themselves. Talk about waste.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
Carry on....
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Or you are definitely not very left and haven't been insulted or dismissed or ridiculed just for standing up to what is supposed to be the Democratic Party's basic principles.
There have been MANY threads attacking the left on DU recently.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Who the hell are you to call me "not very left?"
Pffffffft. This sort of dishonest posturing is beyond lame.
Sorry to disrupt the mutual admiration celebration. Carry on......
cui bono
(19,926 posts)when I stood up for the actual party principles and did not defend whatever PBO did, even when what he did/proposed was against party principles.
And if you haven't seen it or think this is a strawman argument, you may be very left, but then you must not be posting as if you are or you would surely have been attacked as well.
And if you are very left then that's great! The more the merrier. But then why are you calling this a strawman argument and why don't you discuss it instead of posting a dismissive pic like you did?
RC
(25,592 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)thread and were mistaken when you referred to the OP as a 'strawman'?
Or did you mean that that the 'strawman' was CALLING the Left 'crazy'??
If so, then we agree. If not, I have no idea what your comment was meant to imply.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)So long.
Again, who the fuck are you?
I know simplistic nonsense when I see it.
Take your self righteous bullshit elsewhere.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Then go pound sand.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...claiming that the "crazy left" on DU is directly comparable to the crazy right Teabaggers:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023884259
Quelle surprise.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 10:42 AM - Edit history (1)
Link to my post "over in that other thread."
Brilliant observation. Quelle surprise.
No, you didn't see me there, because I didn't read the damn thing.
So what?
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)I guess you did not get the point so I will spell it out for you.
You posted a strawman graphic, indicating that you think the premise of the OP is a strawman argument.
The other thread that I cited, equating "crazy leftists" with teabaggers, refutes the argument that the OP poses a strawman argument.
QED
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)hurts to spell things out!
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Gag me.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)This is your "point?"
Please proceed, your reasoning is absolutely stunning.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...to have the last word. I am happy I was able to give you a chance to spout your opinions, as content-free as they are -- since it serves to expose, for all to see, the (lack of) thinking behind said opinions.
TTFN
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)As for "content," faux news has plenty of it too.
The tactic is simplistic and dishonest regardless of who engages in it.
See ya
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)"strawman" post absurd. Apparently you dont have an intellectual argument to refute the OP.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)your turn. Why are you here in DU?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)I don't like to see children go hungry without healthcare either.
What is your point?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)issues do you disagree with the crazy left. What exactly makes lefties crazy?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)on the left, crazy.
Wanna try again?
eta: On second thought, this exchange is beyond asinine, but thanks for demonstrating my original point so nicely. Next up: why do you hate hungry children and old people!!11!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)out even an explanation. Nothing like a little flaimbait to liven things up.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)doesn't do much for your case.
Keep bringing the straw.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Where is the Straw Man? That's a simple question. Since no one but you sees it, even those not in complete agreement have to acknowledge the facts, why can't you explain it so that people know what you are trying to say?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Talk about an exercise in futility.
I've seen "this show" enough times to know how it ends, or never ends....as it were.
Dining. Room. Table.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)then don't blame everyone else if you are the only one who 'gets it'.
There is nothing Straw Man about this OP. Maybe you don't know what Straw Man means, I suppose that IS a possibility.
Called. Folded.
NealK
(1,881 posts)That's what I suppose too. Or maybe that poster identify themselves with this character:
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)"never ends"
Sid
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)don't DIE for lack of coverage!
just lost my sister to cancer, she had to quit her job as she became more ill and with it went her HC. To survive, she had to decide to leave her longtime home, friends, support system because she had to PAY for HC and she now had no job. So tired of it all.
She passed away a few weeks ago. We are still in shock. I miss her .... I wish her last days had been free from the worry of who would pay for her HC.
But hey, we live in the 'Land of the Free' where you are free to die, and as Grayson stated so corrctly, 'the faster you die the better' or words to that effect.
We Americans envy those who live in countries where LIVES of HUMAN BEINGS are worth more than the profits to be made from their existence.
Btw, what is your position on HC?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)to propagate hatred for the left which seems to me to be harmful for the Party.
They hate whistleblowers, investigative journalists, all theories that dare challenge their comfort zone (always throwing the CT flag to stifle discussion contrary to their world view), etc.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I feel towards those who dare to try to impose their lack of compassion, their selfish 'I've got mine and I'm going to work hard to stop you from getting yours' mentality on this country. As if we don't have our own fair share of morons right here who are doing everything they can to deny life-saving HC to sick and dying Americans.
I won't say any more as I do not trust myself.
You are correct, they are not here to discuss anything, I don't know why they are here to be honest, but they suck oxygen from a forum that could be of some value to the National Dialogue. That is for sure.
Anyone who would deny life-saving care to sick and dying people is scum in my view.
Thanks for your comments, Rhett it is people like you who do have compassion, something that requires strength of character, who give me hope.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)You've pointed several others to your pic and offered several other replies and yet you ignored my question to you, one who seemed quite insulted when I said you must not be very left, asking for an explanation of why you would post that strawman pic.
So come on... what does it mean and why did you post it if you are so far left?
LWolf
(46,179 posts)progressoid
(49,999 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
Example: After Will said that we should put more money into health and education, Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country so much that he wants to leave it defenseless by cutting military spending.
Why do you want to cut Social Security? Why do you hate old people and liberal values?
Dishonest horseshit.
The OP is a master straw peddler. Period.
I don't think it means what YOU think it means.
tomp
(9,512 posts)no text? that's really poor argumentation, not to mention being generally offensive. and really not to mention being WRONG.
until i hear more i'm going to assume you're just another brainwashed dumb american sheep.
This is my statement.
The OP frequently pulls this simplistic nonsense by setting up ridiculous strawman posts.
Why do you hate liberal values?
Why do you want to cut Social Security?
Why do you support right wing policies?
Why do you hate old people?
Why do you hate America!!111
This is just ANOTHER example of her "work."
It is what it is. I posted my opinion of her her tactics. SO FUCKING WHAT??
Get over yourself.
tomp
(9,512 posts)i assume now you're referring to "liberal values being under attack" and "alleged" attempts to cut social security, mentioned symbolically in the post. you know, really, it's ok for you to have an opinion on this, and, of course, you can just post your "strawman" statement and deliberately avoid discussion, but you won't be taken seriously. Every one of the points you mentioned can be discussed. Do you actually think you have changed anything or converted anyone by being deliberately obtuse? check your attitude and your anger. then again, if you don't care if anyone takes you seriously, well...ok then.
As for liberal values being under attack, I highly recommend Chris Hedges" Death of the Liberal Class" which fairly proves objectively that liberal values have been under attack for the better part of a century, with "liberal" leadership selling out big time over and over again. Read it, and get over yourself.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)argument is. The picture is cute.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)joining the pile on. Typical.
Here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3887388
Now take off.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)to crap on the OP? If you disagree why dont you give a decent intellectual argument instead of throwing crap?
Dont bother to answer, it's rhetorical.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)as I see fit.
That you can't follow is your damn problem.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 03:24 PM - Edit history (1)
No one is doing that.
I don't like passive aggressive people who feign offense to score cheap political points.
Now what?
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Great post, Sabrina!
They want to characterize us as the crazy left. But that's only because they support a corporate centered right wing agenda.
According to the polls, preserving social security and medicare is far more "centrist" than throwing more money at an already bloated military industrial complex.
The American people do not want another trade deal, especially one negotiated in secret. Again, the anti-TPP position, is not a crazy leftist position, it is perfectly centrist.
When the media lies about what constitutes "centrist" they need to be called out for it.
Check the polls. We are not the radicals, they are.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)There is nothing Democratic about hurting the working class and I could not agree more with you as to why there is such an effort to dismiss and discredit Democrats who stick to the principles the Party has had a history of representing.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)Posted in wrong place before, but it bears repeating!
loudsue
(14,087 posts)SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)Funny thing is, I have never changed. The labels that people put on me are all over the damn map though! I wonder what we will be next week
pa28
(6,145 posts)I think killing innocent people in Pakistan or Afghanistan through the use of unmanned drones is a criminal act.
Cra cra right?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)was a moral position to take, back in the old Bush days. It was almost impossible to find a Democrat who supported Bush's drone strikes.
pa28
(6,145 posts)Clear cut issues of right and wrong from 2007 suddenly became the ground occupied by fringe weirdos and purity trolls.
Fascinating.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)They want the US broken up into ecological Bio-regions. They are particularly strong in the PNW which would be called Cascadia.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)nothing to worry about'???
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Since I just posted this in another thread, I'll use the post below as an example of my wild and crazy leftist fringe ideas:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3884761
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)swilton
(5,069 posts)Single Payer Health Care
Clean Renewable Energy with Jobs for a Clean Future
Prosecute all those who violate crimes against humanity
WillyT
(72,631 posts)NRaleighLiberal
(60,022 posts)kydo
(2,679 posts)but come on ... either end of the political/social-whatever scale is just the fundamental core of which ever ideology at its most extreme. On the right, it is conservatives and when it becomes extreme it mutates into the fascists we have now calling them selves the tea bag party. On the left its liberals and when it becomes extreme its just chaos. Which is why most *ahem* crazy left movements don't last long.
But there have been in our past groups that one would consider the far left, crazy lefty. The anti war movement in the 1960's, the war movement was good but it morphed into groups that bombed places. Then early in the 1900's 1919-1920's there was Eugene Debs and all the union movements red scare stuff. The unions was a good thing but the fight was ugly.
My point is yes there has been a crazy left but because of what the nature of the left is the crazy left will never be as dangerous as the crazy right. Extreme conservatism doesn't mutate well.
But do I know I am a part of the crazy left
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)louslobbs
(3,238 posts)by all the divisiveness, games, new definitions and distractions. And here's a big hug out to you Sabrina, it's always nice to read your posts. Hope all is well in your new home.
Lou
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Love the new home, thank you!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)But I love them!
BuelahWitch
(9,083 posts)If they'll have me!
TexasTowelie
(112,453 posts)I'm a believer in social justice and equality.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Seeing as how approximately the same financial institutions that benefited from the 2008 bailout are enriching themselves at the expense of an entire generation of put into debt servitude, they can "take a haircut" over those loans.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Such crazy talk!
I notice that the only dissenters on this thread have no actual words, just some internet graphics to post. They are the Emoticon Center after all.
The Magistrate
(95,255 posts)After a ritual cough and bit of pious disclaimer, it piled straight in to present these themes.
First: There are left equivalents of the extreme right elements in the driver's seat of the Republican party today --- which is merely a set-up for 'don't criticize the enemy for something we do too' ( a line a left audience will often fall for hard ), and for the extension of that into the usual punditocracy 'both sides are to blame, fault is equally divided' line.
Second: If we do not reign in, isolate, disparage, take stern steps against, etc., the 'crazies' in our own ranks on the left, we will be in the same position the Republicans are, with an extreme tail wagging a centerist dog. So let us not waste time attacking and exposing right-wing Republican outrages, let us concentrate our fire where it is most vital, on those to our left here, the real problem.
I have, as anyone who has been here for any length of time will know, my own quarrels on occasion with the 'lefter than thou', and certainly a number of them have their quarrels with me. But this is a time for unity, for a 'Popular Front' policy, and put bluntly, we are going to need our more extreme voices as budget negotiations get under way during the Holiday season. I do not trust our center and center-left Party leadership not to give away the store....
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And this:
Yes, this is why these divisive tactics are so counter-productive.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)ljm2002
(10,751 posts)Raise the cap on SS contributions, raise taxes on the wealthy and on corporations, pare down the bloated military budget, rebuild infrastructure, add high speed rail and solar and other green initiatives so we can get people back to work and get our industrial base humming again.
New buildings should be required to have solar panels and to meet stringent energy efficiency requirements.
Discourage cars and airplanes for long distance travel; build high speed rail to take up the slack. Mandate hybrids and electric cars, buses and trucks make up an increasingly higher percentage of the fleet.
Invest in research into ways of ameliorating the effects of greenhouse gases on our climate.
Encourage conservation and green living. Encourage local, self-sufficient economies, with policies that discourage energy-inefficient methods such as shipping food from overseas. Obviously this will take time, and also not everything can be done locally; just make sensible inroads in this direction as we must lower our carbon footprint.
Encourage working from home rather than commuting; if not every day, then a few days a week.
Lower standard working hours from 40 hrs/wk to 30 hrs/wk.
With the extra $$ flowing into SS from raising the cap, lower the retirement age and if possible increase benefits.
Guarantee a minimum base income to all Americans. This would be a far more efficient and less costly way to get rid of homelessness with all the societal and individual misery that it generates.
Single payer healthcare, i.e. Medicare for all (HR676).
Well, that's a start.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)
...heaven forfend that I interrupt your brief moment of clarity.
However, it is also clear from this post that you don't mean it. And instead are actually defending being crazy. So let me break it down for you.
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Prosecute War Criminals"
THEY MEAN: "Petulantly whine about Democratic electeds refusing to engage in political grandstanding about unconstitutional political prosecutions of former Administration figures over non-laws and patently rejected legal theories."
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Prosecute Wall Street Criminals"
THEY MEAN: "Petulantly whine about Democratic electeds refusing to engage in unconstitutional prosecutions of unethical, yet sadly legal, behavior on wall street. Don't lift a finger, even rhetorically, to help change those laws."
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Principles" (edit: was Principals)
THEY MEAN: "Bash Democrats for dealing with the real world."
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Hands off Social Security"
THEY MEAN: "Bash Democrats for calling the GOP's bluff on Social Security."
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "<Generic FDR Quote>"
THEY MEAN: "The man who imprisoned thousands of US citizens in internment camps based on racism is a REAL Democrat, whereas a President backing simple NSA signal intelligence under court supervision is, like, an authoritarian fascist to his core. (Let's not even GO into FDR's WW2 mail-censorship.) See, FDR was not pragmatic like all these Democrats I hate - no siree! He allied himself with racist Dixiecrat lynchers, but we've got PRINCIPALS PRINCIPLES you don't, so LA LA LA LA, I can't hear you."
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "I'm so mad Democrats don't listen to US!"
THEY MEAN: "I'm jealous of the way the Tea Party gets to control the GOP. Look how much more Democrats would be popular and could get done, if only we were controlled by our fringe the way they are."
Seriously, Sabrina, you've almost descended into a self-parody. Or maybe you did a long time ago.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)How can we identify them if we don't know the difference between them? Words have meaning, in the Real World!
Seriously, Sabrina, you've almost descended into a self-parody. Or maybe you did a long time ago.
A much appreciated compliment. Thank you!
Thanks for the huge endorsement, coming from you it means more than I can say!
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Meh. My bad. Damned homonyms. Maybe some spelling checker thing.
You're, uh... welcome for the "endorsement" too. Now go get out there and volunteer for some progressive group instead of wasting all your time posting screeds on the D.U. Not only would it be good for the group you help, it would be good for you. There is something about actually trying to persuade uncommitted voters that drains the "crazyness" (if not the uber-liberalness) from activists.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Realty Based Community
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)I certainly find more in common with you than the self-declared, often self-deluding imaginary lefty purists. It reminds me of the Smothers Brothers arguing about which one Mom loved best. It's as if they think they invented the sun, moon, and stars so they own exclusive rights to the term 'lefty' and can deny that noble accolade to anyone they wish. Downright juvenile jealousy, my friend. Talk about purges! They're on a hot streak now. Better duck... I hear INCOMING!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and even princiPALS discussed and supported here. If you find it TOO 'democratic' for your taste, what exactly is it that you think does not belong on a Democratic Forum?
And where are these 'purges' you speak of? There are rules here as there are on most forums, anyone who follows them has no fear of being 'purged'.
Trashing Dems isn't a good thing to do on a Dem forum, don't you agree? That's all this OP is about. Trash them if you like, but don't expect people NOT to respond. That is what this is, it's a sort of democratic system, someone lies about a whole group of people, then those people point out the lies. What could be objectionable about that?
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)all in the name of good Democratic principles, of course - and telling me to shut up in the name of free speech!
I will still try to help you understand one last time, however, that I don't need you to stamp my credentials. You didn't hang the sun, moon, and stars after all. You feel free to bash dissidents to your particularly narrow spectrum of thought by calling them (and me) such hissy fit names as Third Way etc., claiming we're not really Democrats at all. Certainly not as good as your little crowd.
The reason I see your inconsistencies so clearly is because at your emotional age, I too had the same grandiose opinions. It's almost invariably true of teenagers. But there comes a time to grow out of such navel gazing and look at the Big Tent picture. Sorry, but no matter how much squawking you do at those you consider beneath you, I'm here under the Big Tent to stay. I never told you to get out; I simply engaged in a futile attempt to help you understand that I neither require nor seek your approval, thank you very much.
Get back to me on that in a few years. Maybe with a little more real world experience you'll understand.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)discuss issues and might have heard what your are trying to say if you had not insisted on making it about ME, which I'm not especially interested in unless it's coming from someone who is in a position to know something about ME.
This isn't about me or you, but if that is what is important to you, personalities, that's your choice.
I've had plenty of real world experience and will probably experience plenty more and what I've learned is that Democratic Policies generally work better for a majority of people than Republican policies.
We've conceded those positions over and over again to the detriment of the American people, not to mention people of other nations where we decided to 'bring democracy'. And now we saw clearly where all that conceding got us.
And that is all this is about. It's really simple. People don't join Political Parties because they agree with or intend to support, the policies of the one they did not join. It should not be a surprise therefore that Democrats want to see Democratic Policies implemented. I can never understand why this is the case.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)...Sabrina.
And your wailing about being called out for such reeks with the stench of hypocrisy.
Please understand: YOU are the one who constantly picks fights with the party, get responded to, and then go crying to your sanctimonious "more leftist than thou" gaggle about being subjected to an opinion that isn't perfectly aligned with your hate-filled, fringe, beliefs.
Again, this is the DemocraticUnderground, not the "I Hate Capitalism"-Underground. If that's what you want, you'd do much better at revleft.com.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)which btw, roll off people like me who've been subjected to them as a Democrat for years, and simply smile when we see the same old stuff surface over and over again. I wish there was some creativity involved by now, at least something that made sense, even original. But so be it.
But back to the Real World. Still not a word about Issues or anything that is worthy of discussion though. Just railing and whining that Democrats STILL support Democratic Principles no matter what efforts are made to push Third Way/Reagan Republicanism on this Party.
Get back to us when you are willing to explain exactly where you stand on the Democratic Party Platform.
Some excellent comments in this thread explaining Democratic policies, in case you need them.
Btw, did anyone ever tell you that we Liberals are among the toughest fighters in Politics and have never been known to back down to name-calling and personal attacks?
I believe it was FDR, but someone could correct me if I'm wrong, who said 'I relish their hatred' when speaking of those who opposed his Democratic Policies. It would save you a lot of time to get past the personal attack mode and focus on what everyone else is interested in for a change.
But that's entirely your choice, it certainly doesn't effect me one way or the other other. Thanks for your 'thoughts', AGAIN!
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)I am, and that doesn't even get to the personal choices that I make about helping others. The far Left cause me to go cold. They come off as feeling that they are so perfect and their views are the only moral ones. They would get father down the road to getting the society that they claim to want if they would get off their high horses and work with people that fundamentally share their core values instead of finger pointing and going into character assassination.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)poor and working class? I hear that phrase over and over but when asked to define it, we rarely get into the issues, which is how we define the left and the right.
I encountered it mostly on Right Wing sites and up to fairly recently never saw it on Democratic Forums. So exactly how do you determine who is what we are now told is the faction that is as bad as the insane TP, in this party?
As for this:
Who on the Left here has posted OP after OP 'character assassinating' DUers?? We have had multiple OPs attacking DUers here with labels, too many to list here such as 'emoprogs' 'crazy left' etc filled with the same kind of attacks you expect to see only from disrupters who want to divide this party. And when WE respond to them, it bothers people? Well that's too bad because I have always responded to attacks on Democrats from the first day I posted on the internet. And will continue to do so before their attacks are accepted as even close to being true.
WE, the 'Left' that you refer to just got finished with ten years of doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAY WE SHOULD DO. We 'got off our high horses' and worked with our party, making concession after concession in 'order to get things done'. AND WHERE DID ALL THAT GET US??
All it did was give POWER to the most insane people in politics which they used to practically bring down the government.
So now we want to see our Party do what they should have done. never compromise with people who are WRONG on policies, who have had ten years of concessions (Reid has even admitted this) and all that did was to make things far, far worse than they were for millions of people.
I'm sorry if you think we should just STFU. We did that, now it's way past time for US on the Left, to start making demands rather than allowing the most insane factions to be the ones making demands while we are expected to keep conceding more ground to them.
If that is what you view as the Left, speaking up, making demands for a better society as the 'faction' being attacked here, then I could not disagree with you more.
We need TOUGH leaders. Leaders who will NOT negotiate away the people's best interests. We needed that long ago.
So we saw how not conceding works finally. Just as the 'crazy left' has been saying for so long.. Let's hope from now there will be the same commitment to not caving to them that we just saw and enough of the nonsense that we 'can't win'. We don't win when we dont fight.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)They really sound like they want their own little super-exclusive club and will beat any comers over the head with hysterical narrow-mindedness if you deny their imaginary rights to validate or cancel your own credentials. Let me tell you who does have my ear: those people who marched at Selma, rode the Freedom buses, sat at the lunch counters, etc. In other words, people who do the real work of coalition building. I told our resident DU hysterics that they're behaving like spoiled little brats in so many words. But they really remind me of Republicans, stamping their feet and squalling when someone doesn't require or seek their validation.
Somewhere along the way, a good poster shared an old Persian proverb: The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. Says it all, doesn't it?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)that we follow the Constitution? Or that we see that all American children are fed and get decent health care.
I double dog dare you to explain on what issues the Moderate Liberals differ from the so-called crazy left.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)These 'vague' accusations with zero substance and as have many noted, NEVER any response when asked about ISSUES. It's all personal attacks, no discussion of issues.
I have my own theory on the reason for the refusal to discuss issues.
Put it this way, if I were not really who I claim to be I would avoid like the plague, any discussion that might reveal that.
We all have ways of determining whose views are worth while listening to. I determine that by the number of times someone uses the pronoun 'you'. 'All YOU do is whine about ...... whatever. YOU never support this party ..... whatever. 'YOU are a Republican fan girl' lol, yes, I have been accused of that.
I am far more interested in reading posts that address issues, rather than people. But if you have no principles you simply cannot address issues so it's best to try to avoid them.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)"politically liberal" qualification for posting on DU.
I am curious, what conservative Democrats do you support? Will you support Sen Warren? Rep Grayson?
PoliticalPothead
(220 posts)It's always great to hear from people who think they know more about a movement than the people within that movement.
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Prosecute War Criminals"
THEY MEAN: "Petulantly whine about Democratic electeds refusing to engage in political grandstanding about unconstitutional political prosecutions of former Administration figures over non-laws and patently rejected legal theories."
Except for the fact that there's nothing in the constitution preventing Administration officials from being prosecuted for war crimes. Also, there are international laws against the things the Bush Administration (and frankly, the Obama Administration as well) have done in the name of "national security", so your entire premise is false.
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Prosecute Wall Street Criminals"
THEY MEAN: "Petulantly whine about Democratic electeds refusing to engage in unconstitutional prosecutions of unethical, yet sadly legal, behavior on wall street. Don't lift a finger, even rhetorically, to help change those laws."
If they bothered to investigate I'm sure they'd find plenty of illegal shit going on. Also, you think we don't lift a finger to change laws that benefit Wall St? What do you think OWS was? Are you kidding me?
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Principles" (edit: was Principals)
THEY MEAN: "Bash Democrats for dealing with the real world."
So the only way to "deal with the real world" is to bend over and let yourself get fucked by corporate interests?
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "Hands off Social Security"
THEY MEAN: "Bash Democrats for calling the GOP's bluff on Social Security."
Calling the GOP's bluff? Is that what you think they're doing? NEWSFLASH: many democrats are owned by the same Wall St banks that are pushing for Social Security privatization.
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "<Generic FDR Quote>"
THEY MEAN: "The man who imprisoned thousands of US citizens in internment camps based on racism is a REAL Democrat, whereas a President backing simple NSA signal intelligence under court supervision is, like, an authoritarian fascist to his core. (Let's not even GO into FDR's WW2 mail-censorship.) See, FDR was not pragmatic like all these Democrats I hate - no siree! He allied himself with racist Dixiecrat lynchers, but we've got PRINCIPALS PRINCIPLES you don't, so LA LA LA LA, I can't hear you."
So, supporting FDR's policies that helped millions of people and ended the Great Depression means that you must support everything FDR ever said or did? If I support Obamacare, does that mean I must support drone attacks in the Middle East?
WHEN A CRAZY LEFTIST SAYS: "I'm so mad Democrats don't listen to US!"
THEY MEAN: "I'm jealous of the way the Tea Party gets to control the GOP. Look how much more Democrats would be popular and could get done, if only we were controlled by our fringe the way they are."
Here's that mainstream media false equivalency crap. The "fringe" left never supported shutting down the government just because we didn't get single-payer healthcare. The "fringe" left is not controlled by billionaires who want to deregulate every industry and privatize every government program so they can make money off it. The "fringe" left used to have power in America, and as the power of the "fringe" left has died out so has the power of the 99%, which leads me to believe that the "fringe" left is the only group actually fighting for the people, and not for corporate interests.
- P.P. Proud Member of the Crazy Left-Wing "Fringe"
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)I support Universal Human Rights without any exceptions
I believe "From everyone according to their ability, to everyone according to their need/wish" is an ideal worth striving for.
I think José Mujica IS a great President, and wish he was British PM:
Jose Mujica: The world's 'poorest' president
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20243493
Laundry is strung outside the house. The water comes from a well in a yard, overgrown with weeds. Only two police officers and Manuela, a three-legged dog, keep watch outside.
This is the residence of the president of Uruguay, Jose Mujica, whose lifestyle clearly differs sharply from that of most other world leaders.
President Mujica has shunned the luxurious house that the Uruguayan state provides for its leaders and opted to stay at his wife's farmhouse, off a dirt road outside the capital, Montevideo.
The president and his wife work the land themselves, growing flowers.
This austere lifestyle - and the fact that Mujica donates about 90% of his monthly salary, equivalent to $12,000 (£7,500), to charity - has led him to be labelled the poorest president in the world.
Some of his achievements:
Same-sex marriage bill comes into force in Uruguay
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23571197
Uruguay: New Abortion Law Breaks Ground for Womens Rights
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/10/26/uruguay-new-abortion-law-breaks-ground-women-s-rights
Uruguay MPs back marijuana legalisation bill
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23516966
Uruguay could become the world leader in wind energy generation by 2015
http://www.ecochunk.com/5052/2012/12/29/uruguay-could-become-the-world-leader-in-wind-energy-generation-by-2015/
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)and Republican Party is that we come to accept reactionary policies supported by a more centrist Administration - because we become preoccupied fighting off something even far more extreme. And now we live in a world where right-wing extremism has become mainstream.
But here is one crazy left idea - that many here on DU would rather bury their head in the sand over or concoct preposterous rationalizations over -- As former U.S. Senator Gary Hart said very recently, "It is not excessive to believe this growing, gargantuan, secret complex now represents the greatest threat to our freedom in the new twenty-first century."
Rex
(65,616 posts)and the crazy right is pushing anarchy hardcore. Gee, I wonder which one is going to win in the end? Not really.
2naSalit
(86,804 posts)LongTomH
(8,636 posts)democrank
(11,112 posts)Always yapping about social and economic justice, backing unions, supporting head start, opposing torture, yelling about oil spills. They`re going to ruin this Democratic party.
a2liberal
(1,524 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)then you become some kind of left-wing lunatic.
I'm a socialist, sue me.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)[center][/center]
- K&R
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)Very timely post. F*** that shit.
False equivalency indeed. But we can learn from it - what they're scared of, is people that might think the financial system an sich isn't worth heaping trillions on without accountability.
As if somehow the world would stop turning, assets (like factories, or humans with knowledge) would cease to exist if the casino went bust. I strongly doubt that. There would be serious collateral damage (like pensions), but nothing a committed population couldn't rectify. After all, money is just a human construct. We can construct a better kind.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)that Far Right ideas ever were, might get out to the public and be implemented as policy, making this a country FOR the PEOPLE rather than FOR the Corporations.
As for the Penions, talk about 'crazy ideas'. Whose idea was it to EVER gamble on Wall St with people's pensions?
And this is what they want to do with every Public Fund, including the SS Fund, the Education Fund and they are well on their way to succeeding which is why we have to speak out now before it's too late, and let our own Party know we expect THEM at least to be there with us.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)Funding of all Federal elections. 4 Universal coverage Single Payor.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the most important issues of our times. Take the money out of politics.
Looks like there is pretty much a consensus on lifting the Cap on Social Security.
Thank for your comment, Vicardog.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)Here in Belgium, one pays some 13% of tax on all income towards our social security system. That's 13%, without cap.
The financial transaction tax was agreed to by 11 EU states, Belgium being one.
Elections are publicly funded. Citizens United would be called corruption here.
I read here on DU that the healthcare we have here isn't true single payer, but "bismarckian". I have to look into that, but as far as I can tell we all pay into the system, it's government-run health CARE and it's very affordable. We do have private providers, but they are controlled by the government, which sets prices and the like.
Not saying everything is perfect here - besides, the system is under full frontal attack. Just illustrating those demands aren't far left wing - they're mainstream, but the US mainstream is now so far right that what DU considers "very left" is close to the EU center.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)things, is just Mainstream in more sane societies.
But this part of your comment is a concern:
Been watching that, how they have gone Global with their assault on Social Programs. I hope there will be a huge backlash because these people don't quit as you can see from this country where they have been trying to privatize SS and every other Public Fund, Education eg where they are succeeding, with scare tactics and propaganda for a long time.
The crazy left needs to step up and start fighting back, hard.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)let me share this small anecdote: when Greece got its "Memorandum of Understanding" it contained such a full frontal assault.
As a consequence, Doctors without Borders now say parts of Greece give them the feeling they usually get in the Third World.
I read reporting of the key points of the MoU on the Greek newspaper Ekathimerini.
That same day, I heard our liberal (read: neoliberal, and don't forget liberal politics in the EU <> in the US) vice-PM Didier Reynders discuss needed changes to our system here in Belgium.
They were the SAME points.
A small change that was made to our index mechanism here: they said people are substituting cheaper products, and we need to take those in the mix...very close to chained CPI I believe...
The current EU agenda stinks, seriously. That's not syaing all that happens in the EU parliament is bad -but the Commission and the ECB...NOT for the 99%
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)your story of the talking points finding their way into your government's debate. I feel certain that Wall St puppets have been backed and installed in every government in Europe, or that this is the goal. We know, for a fact, that Karl Rove eg, helped elect Sweden's 'Ronald Reagan' PM, behind the scenes.
I'm sad for Europe when I see what a foothold these Neo-Liberals have managed to gain there. I hope by now their rotten, failed agenda has awakened enough people to put a stop to it finally.
Here they've been working for decades to try to turn the country into a second world country where everything is privatized and there is no Middle Class. They have succeeded to a great extent.
Solly Mack
(90,787 posts)stage left
(2,966 posts)then I'm in the crazy left. One of my crazy ideas is repeal of the Patriot Act and Citizens United. I also want hands off Medicare and Medicaid, and a repeal on the cuts to Snap and Head start and Meals on Wheels and education. I'm a wild-eyed crazy leftist. I want unions and an end to right to work laws. I want corporations to pay taxes and banks to be regulated. I want a return to Glass-Stegall. And I think Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the best president ever. I almost used LeftofGhandhi as a screen name, but I didn't because people might think I think I'm better than Gandhi and I don't, of course. But, politically, I'm pretty far left.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and if we can implement even half of them, this would be a far more successful society for a majority of the people than it has been for quite a while now.
Repeal the Patriot Act! Yes. Why has it taken so long?
stage left
(2,966 posts)I'm glad to be here. I'm so crazy, I put a Repeal the Patriot Act bumper sticker on my car. Regrettably my Re-elect Obama sticker came after the Election was over.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)was not such a crazy idea, especially for Democrats! What happened?
I am just as crazy as you are then because I agree. Rescind the vile and anti-Constitutional 'Patriot Act'.
It is way past time!
LWolf
(46,179 posts)In no particular order:
100% public, and equal, financing of all candidates, with no private funding allowed; equal, and equally neutral, press coverage of candidates; actual debates where all candidates answer the same questions and are given equal talk time; IRV
Re-regulate every damned thing that has been de-regulated.
Abolish free trade, returning to trade based on stringent labor and environmental standards.
De-privatize every damned public service that has been privatized.
Expand Social Security.
Universal FREE PUBLIC pre-school through university or trade school
Universal National Health Care system, with easily accessible, equally high quality, and free at point of service CARE, funded entirely by taxes.
Guaranteed jobs and an authentic living wage
Abolish homeland security. Repeal the Patriot Act. Restore every Civil liberty that has been eroded, and advance more civil liberties. Start with the ERA, and finish the work on gay marriage.
"Right to work" can become "Right to belong to a labor union."
Explore the idea of a guaranteed income for all.
No Citizens United
Limit CEO pay to 10X their lowest-paid employee
KICK THE FUCKING CORPORATE DEFORMERS OUT OF PUBLIC EDUCATION:
Ban high-stakes testing.
Treat teachers like professionals. Put them in charge of education reform.
Fully fund a rich, vibrant education system with everything we need to make a difference in every student's life.
Acknowledge that the overwhelmingly largest factor in "student achievement" is parent SES, and ABOLISH POVERTY IN THE UNITED STATES. FOREVER.
Look at rehabilitation instead of punishment for criminals; incarcerate to protect the public, not to punish; implement various systems to provide the rehabilitation and support offenders need. Look at Norway: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/europe/091017/norway-open-prison Look at Circle Justice and other models of restorative justice: http://www.livingjusticepress.org/
Make a significant investment in sustainable agriculture and energy.
Get out of the business of empire and global domination, and focus resources on building domestic infrastructure.
Tax all religious organizations that participate in politics in any way.
Become responsible stewards of the biosphere.
Regulate capitalism to the nth degree, or get rid of it entirely.
A NEW AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION: THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY. To be very broadly interpreted.
Wow. I guess I could keep going all day.
Edited, because I forgot to add things like guaranteed safe, affordable (AUTHENTICALLY affordable) housing, utilities, and food.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)decent standards. It's a great list and if Dems would just stop conceding to the lunatics on the Right who have now more than proven how insane they are, we could begin the process of becoming a civilized society.
Great list. This country can afford to do all of this. But first we would have to stop the killing of people overseas. Maybe if we tried something other than violence, we wouldn't have failed in the GWOT which after 12 years seemed to be a total waste of lives and money.
End all Bush policies, I thought that is what we were doing when we elected Dems in 2008?
LWolf
(46,179 posts)That's the change we believed in.
That's not what we got.
stage left
(2,966 posts)so I must be even crazier than I though I was.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)After years of reading the eyebleedingly conservative things floated here as liberal, I realized that I must be one of them "nuts".
If so, practically 75% of CA is too, and despite us freaks, we now have a recovering economy and a fairly labor friendly Gov. In my union we discuss ways we can pressure Brown to go more left, and despite people here claiming that is just unicorn farts in their world, it often happens. Amazing.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)I'll check that box!
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)not during my life time (1960)
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)By mandating that people who do a fair day's work get a fair day's pay. Fuck Wal Mart's profit margins. I know, the entire concept makes me a communist.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Next:
Tax the rich
Raise the cap
No costly trade deals
Public option
Move to amend
And of course, LOOK BACKWARD AND PROSECUTE CRIME.
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)Democratic Socialism sounds good to me, the Scandinavian model. People could vote it out but why would they?
Nothing wrong with capitalism to a certain extent, the ability to get to well off should be there for everyone, just not the ability to get filthy rich at the expense of others and your nation's political system.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)From this member of the crazy left.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)since my political awareness/life began.
It's easy to understand why those satisfied with the current state of dem leadership can't understand the whys behind those of us with all of the objections, and that's why I questioned before whether maybe age is the difference in many. It may be easy for them to be satisfied not having had the experience with what they once were.
ANother thing they don't seem to understand is that those of us that have that knowledge/life experience, were here first, and see the DLC/Third Way/"New Democrats" much as some of the cons now see the Pee Party party highjackers.
We of course share their fear of rightwingnuttery, and see the aforementioned dragging us in that direction, whether they have any intentions of dragging us that far or not. It's all about preserving "the left" and the policies that accompany it intact in this left of center country, as opposed to allowing the fascists -- be they corporate dems or repubs -- to have their way at the expense of the little people.
It's what they support, and they use the same tactics as their rightwingnut cousins to validate that support, and to vindicate them for their drift rightward it represents.
Alkene
(752 posts)reACTIONary
(5,788 posts)... LOONY LEFT !!! Alliterate , people, alliterate!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)First they ignore you...
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)definitely are not ignoring us.
Did we win yet?
I think we are at the 'attack' stage?
And then we win!
Which means the Country Wins!
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)It will suck. Hang on tight!
If we're smart, tough and a little lucky we win.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)That's my fav.
Someone must have trotted out Spandan again. Yawn.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)and it took a lot of persistent for these programs to evolve. 40 years of a Democratic Party in the House. Dems, not as crazy as GOPers, yet, but they do care about the American people. But vote.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)joanbarnes
(1,723 posts)tavalon
(27,985 posts)but I caucus with true dems. Not third wayers, nor blue dogs. Yellow dog Democrats.
Silent3
(15,281 posts)...yet I don't find anything crazy in the ideas that you espouse in your OP, what's that supposed to mean then?
That there simply is no one on the Left whom any of us would or should find crazy? That there's simply no possibility of going too far in a leftward political direction -- more left is always better? (A way of thinking that's exactly what drove what should have remained a fringe on the Right into power on the Right.)
Prosecuting war criminals would be great. If you were in charge in the House, and refused to let a budget pass, or raise the debt ceiling, until everyone you thought was guilty was brought to trial, that would be crazy.
Do you feel so certain of your defensive need to "read between the lines" that if you catch someone using what you consider a suspect, agenda-laden term like "Crazy Left", you must pounce on it vehemently, assume all the worst intentions and hidden meanings, guilty until proven innocent? Now I'm somehow a person who must love and coddle war criminals, perhaps can't get enough tax cuts for the rich, and any denial is pointless because, gosh darnit, I said "Crazy Left", and, well, now you've got me pegged?
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Irrelevant to modern American politics. The Left has NO power in Washington right now. NONE.
No, Democrat =/= Left
Silent3
(15,281 posts)That's definitely a Left position, and it's gotten a lot of traction.
That's far from enough leftward influence with there being so many other issues of importance, but it's something, and it's certainly more a part of the Democratic Party then the Republican party.
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)They tend to do that but they are not leftists. Accepting them because they sometimes offer "something" is part of the reason things are in such a mess. With the occasional "something", we also get economic policy that is hostile to the working class.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)And on economic issues, both are downright cruel.
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)It was a reaction to what has become a trend and we Democrats don't intend to sit back and allow a silly trend to become fact. So I go with the policy of taking action when something seems to be a part of a trend that is bad for Democrats. If your intentions were not what they appeared to be well, I didn't write the headline.
Frankly I didn't bother to read your OP too carefully. Your headline was enough to create the impression that this was just another one of those OPs we've seen so many of lately. And I'm for dealing with false impressions quickly rather than allowing them to fester and become a reality for people who might not know any better.
This was your headline:
We have our own "Burn it down! Let it all burn down!" faction here.
Here? DU? Well, it doesn't matter. If you meant something other than what most people took to be yet another attack on the Left, then you didn't do a very good job of expressing yourself. Maybe try again sometime.
But you are posting on a Left Forum where you claim to have found 'crazy leftists' who are 'willing to crash and burn', what? I couldn't tell. And I've been here a long time and haven't noticed any of these 'left terrorists' you describe.
Anyhow, it isn't about you. It's about presenting facts and countering non-facts especially here where we used to be able to count on factual information rather than wild theories.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)..much less a "Crazy" Left.
If there was, we would have something to counter the Crazy Right with.
stage left
(2,966 posts)^^This^^
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)We're on the right track. There will be stumbles, but much like enlightenment, you'll only get there if you keep walking. These people who want to stop right where they are, pretend that right now is good enough, no further? Forget them. They can be their own baggage, not ours - no point in stopping ourselves just to argue. Maybe in time they'll decide to start walking again, each at their own pace.
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)The people here that refer to themselves as centrists seem more like moderate Republicans to me.
Oakenshield
(614 posts)On top of supporting the many great ideas listed in this thread, I also heartily recommend nationalizing the banks.
questionseverything
(9,661 posts)if the power of fractured interest provided for the people instead of hurting
tblue
(16,350 posts)We rock!!!
DissidentVoice
(813 posts)And I proudly support:
It CAN BE DONE.
I am SICK SICK SICK of hearing "there's no political will" from the Third Way types.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)mdbl
(4,976 posts)I am a crazy lefty and here are some my reasons:
I like clean drinking water that is owned by the public for public consumption
I like breathable air - I think something called the "clean air act" should actually be about cleaner air
I like food that hasn't been chemically changed to the point that my body's cells don't recognize what to do with it
I don't think everyone should run around with machine guns
I think everyone should have access to healthcare
I think Ted Cruz and all the idiot teabaggers who caused the US to lose 20 billion in the last 3 weeks are self-serving a-holes and should have their pay docked until the debt is repaid.
I think Mush Limpbaugh is a big fat idiot bimbo
I think Sarah Palin is an unintelligent bimbo
Now ain't that some crazy Sh#$?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)... should pay the most for its maintenance.
That's my crazy-left idea.
-Laelth
PADemD
(4,482 posts)Chico Man
(3,001 posts)That's pretty crazy. Especially without any understanding of what is being said.
TBF
(32,102 posts)Is preferable to the third-way nonsense we've been subjected to. At least he understood why we need social security and labor laws -
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1952
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_eisenhower_quote.htm
librechik
(30,676 posts)guess what, we don't have anybody like that. Even Michael Moore and Ralph Nader have souls. And no power in Congress to speak of. Nobody on the left is the equivalent of Ted Cruz or Bachmann.
Erose999
(5,624 posts)Carnival Cruz or Batshit Bachmann is just... laughable.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Ironic, isn't it? I remember when Nixon ran for president on a platform of "law and order" and supporting the "silent majority."
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,782 posts)I love all the crazy ideas it will make a stronger society
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)I support, for example, the arrest of all persons involved in the torture at Gitmo. See 18 U.S.C. § 2340. See also § 2340A, which covers those who order the torture. I understand the pragmatic political reasons that Obama is not pursuing this, but I would like to remind him of the old legal maxim, fiat justitia ruat caelum -- "let justice be done though the heavens fall." Letting politicians (I'm looking at YOU, Dick Cheney) get away with repeated major felonies is not a way of making people believe that you support the rule of law. Incidentally, under § 2340, waterboarding is torture.
I should also point out that I am a Catholic, and one of the Catholic teachings that is held to be infallible is that torture is intrinsece malum in se -- "intrinsically evil in itself". Pope John Paul II, in his encyclical Veritatis Splendor stated the definition:
Reason attests that there are objects of the human act which are by their nature "incapable of being ordered" to God, because they radically contradict the good of the person made in his image. These are the acts which, in the Church's moral tradition, have been termed "intrinsically evil" (intrinsece malum): they are such always and per se, in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances.
I also want single payer health insurance, which both covers everyone and is demonstrably cheaper than commercial health insurance, both per capita and as a percentage of GNP. Did you know that the single company, New England Blue Cross, has four times as much administrative costs as all of Health Canada? To those conservative who natter "do you want government bureaucrats rationing your healthcare?", the response is "you clearly prefer that corporate bureaucrats do it. That's so much better.
When conservatives natter about liberals wanting "redistribution of wealth", I merely point out that we have had exactly that going on, with the rich getting richer and everyone else getting poorer.
I also reject the social conservative version of individual freedom, in which the phrase "I believe that people are free to act as they want" actually means "I believe that people are free to act as they want, insofar as I approve of what he or she is doing." Or, to put that more succinctly, "I do not believe that people are free to act as they want."
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)ancianita
(36,137 posts)I'm glad not to feel so alone in my political outlook. Our fighting for 17 in the House in 2014 should swing things a bit left of center. I don't have blind faith that it will happen because of the shutdown, but I think it's entirely doable if our efforts are strategic and tactics are friendly and helpful to red staters in need of good representation.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)a "bleeding heart liberal" for all of my adult life (too long to say) I'm glad I'm not the last of said group, as I have often thought.
and
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And I think that is what scared the Corporatists. Because if we ever decide NOT to just play along anymore with the status quo, and got organized and used our money and time to get the kind of people WE respect, elected, we would present a huge threat to the crooked corporate people who have taken over this country.
And the good news is that this may be happening. That the Left IS organizing, sick to death of the insults and mostly dismissive attitude from the DLC leadership of this Party. Large Liberal Orgs began organizing before the last election stating plainly that they have had enough and while they would elect Dems that time, because the other side is so insane, this will not continue. Accepting candidates chosen by Wall St?? No, not any more.
You are not alone by any means.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)have you ever considered reaching out to tea party GRASS ROOTS supporters? Since you mentioned the "majority", I can't help but think that misguided as they are, some tea party supporters basically have a rather similar analysis of "dysfuntion" about the government to what Occupy had. There was reporting on that kind of broad coalition at some point. Don't you think you could include these people (with some hefty re-education, granted). I'm just saying, these people (at grassroots level) could be merely disgruntled and unhappy with the system.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I read an article from the guy who started the grassroots effort. He left as soon as the corporate paid crazies took over. I wish I could remember his name and where I found that article. The guy has totally distanced himself from them. He said the Tea Party in no way resembled his thinking.
It's always a possibility.