Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:05 PM Oct 2013

Scammed again by corporatists in both parties.

No, it's not a win. Let's not forget what really happens as a result of this deal. And let's not forget how we got here.

Let's remember this critical point made by DUer, cui bono:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023864395

But what is in the bill being passed is a budget with sequestration. A bill with less spending than Ryan's budget.


And let's repeat a post by leveymg that also explains what is really going on here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3839411

67. It's because this lunacy is all a quite rational way to propel the Center-Right Austerity agenda.

That's precisely why I don't believe this BS about 40 Teahadis being responsible for the "crisis."

A partial shutdown suits the deficit hawks in both parties just fine, since it's been adjusted so it doesn't actually impact payrolls in the military and Intelligence agencies. This is simply austerity and cuts to social programs without anyone having to actually vote for it, and that's making the Center-Right smile.

Of course, they won't allow actual default of the debt - the "threat" of that just another psychological device to make this seem like a real crisis. It's not - it's simply austerity by default.



It has caused and will cause more pain to the 99 percent, and it never should have gone this far. The faux fiscal "crisis" should have been utterly rejected by a Democratic President TWO YEARS ago. Let's remember how we got started down this road of sequestrations and shutdowns in the first place. Republicans should have been slapped down hard then. Instead, the axe of sequestration was embraced by Democrats, and we got soaring speeches about eating our peas.

Now we have perpetual rule by crisis, repeated shock doctrine. Over and over again, options are deliberately narrowed until two shit sandwiches are placed before us, and we are taught to cry victory at receiving the slightly less shitty and painful option. Every outcome hurts the 99 percent and enriches the one percent a little bit more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023864395

But what is in the bill being passed is a budget with sequestration. A bill with less spending than Ryan's budget.

This is not a win, except for corporate thieves in both parties.

Every single deal, every single orchestrated crisis, every single shock doctrine scam moves us further into corporate slavery. We are being played by both corporate parties, over and over again.



152 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Scammed again by corporatists in both parties. (Original Post) woo me with science Oct 2013 OP
The OP is BS, here's why: ProSense Oct 2013 #1
Great response. JoePhilly Oct 2013 #4
No, not really LondonReign2 Oct 2013 #7
We're doomed. The Dems suck. JoePhilly Oct 2013 #10
That is a dumbass response LondonReign2 Oct 2013 #14
He's going to press for immigration reform pscot Oct 2013 #91
And that pretty well sums up your argument. Blah blah blah. nm rhett o rick Oct 2013 #55
They're back. nt Bobbie Jo Oct 2013 #86
This shit gets old, doesn't it... SidDithers Oct 2013 #123
Being perpetually disgruntled is a full time job. JoePhilly Oct 2013 #126
What shit gets old? Supporting Democratic Policies NEVER gets old for Democrats. So what are you sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #136
Post removed Post removed Oct 2013 #143
You are not living under the sequestration. Let those that are Mojorabbit Oct 2013 #137
What do you think about cuts to SS benefits? sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #124
You mean the SS cuts that aren't going to happen, just like the last 10 times they've been JoePhilly Oct 2013 #125
So you don't support SS cuts, you don't support the Chained CPI. Good, then we are in agreement and sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #139
Correct, I do not support the SS cuts that are also not happening ... no matter how much JoePhilly Oct 2013 #145
"The link merely states that Ryan et al wanted even more damage in the form of entitlement cuts." ProSense Oct 2013 #20
Once again you don't seem to know what words mean LondonReign2 Oct 2013 #23
"Scammed again by corporatists in both parties." ProSense Oct 2013 #24
Are we still at sequestration levels? LondonReign2 Oct 2013 #25
Did the Senate pass a budget that's being blocked by Republicans? ProSense Oct 2013 #27
You still did not answer the question. zeemike Oct 2013 #49
There argument can be summed up as: Democrats good, Republicans bad. It makes life so much rhett o rick Oct 2013 #57
Yep. enlightenment Oct 2013 #128
The question shows how unrealistic your expectations are. D23MIURG23 Oct 2013 #75
I did not say we lost. zeemike Oct 2013 #82
Its not "too negative", its a false equivalence. D23MIURG23 Oct 2013 #94
I made no equivalence zeemike Oct 2013 #101
If you are not making an equivalence then you are using the wrong metaphor. D23MIURG23 Oct 2013 #102
Making deals like that are for fools. zeemike Oct 2013 #109
You also avoided my question, so I'll rephrase and ask again. D23MIURG23 Oct 2013 #96
Making progress is not winning. zeemike Oct 2013 #99
Its a matter of semantics whether making progress is considered winning. D23MIURG23 Oct 2013 #105
Exactly, and again, to play the REAL game you need to keep your eyes on the ball nolabels Oct 2013 #116
YES REALLY!!! SkyDaddy7 Oct 2013 #63
Had thought woo me with science's OP was spot on. Thanks for clarifying that we are not indepat Oct 2013 #30
Now THAT's an important post. woo me with science Oct 2013 #43
Or that Mitt Romney's multi-million dollar annual income is still taxed playing like it were indepat Oct 2013 #77
But, but being run from the right is ok if it is a Democrat. You see the word means everything. rhett o rick Oct 2013 #64
My maternal grand-father had been an early campaign manager for Al Gore, Sr. and this native indepat Oct 2013 #71
+1 Enthusiast Oct 2013 #107
Nailed it...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #42
Let me sum up your argument - Republicans are bad, Democrats are good. rhett o rick Oct 2013 #54
Um, no, Democrats passed a budget that ended the sequester. joshcryer Oct 2013 #88
Of course there is a difference. THat's not the point. Of course what we got was better than rhett o rick Oct 2013 #103
The Ryan budget assumes the sequester is made permanent. joshcryer Oct 2013 #106
Most programs were not exempted from the sequester. former9thward Oct 2013 #118
The OP is absolutely CORRECT. And the proof will very soon become evident to those who have so far sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #122
This is it!!! Here it comes!!! Any second!!! JoePhilly Oct 2013 #127
You are too late. It has already begun. But with the same pressure Liberals applied re the Summers sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #133
Even Bernie Sanders is in on it now. JoePhilly Oct 2013 #138
Link please to Bernie Sanders supporting cuts to SS ... sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #140
Well, he's been assigned to the Budget Committee ... JoePhilly Oct 2013 #144
Why do you say 'so clearly he must be part of the secret plan to kill Social Security'?? Ryan is on sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #150
Because we're being scammed by the corpratists in both parties. JoePhilly Oct 2013 #151
Yes! AnotherMcIntosh Oct 2013 #132
wait! Is that the Whambulance coming up the block? VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #2
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2013 #74
yup Skittles Oct 2013 #3
The OP's thesis is the Dems in gov are the enemy Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #9
How dishonest to misrepresent the OP. I guess you are unable to argue against what he actually rhett o rick Oct 2013 #104
+100 truebluegreen Oct 2013 #53
So in conclusion it is all Obama's fault. Got it. Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #5
Always is. JoePhilly Oct 2013 #11
Yes always is... zeemike Oct 2013 #52
Or, if the perpetually disgruntled are JoePhilly Oct 2013 #81
Or if the perpetually fucked over zeemike Oct 2013 #83
The only thing that's obvious is that the OP said no such thing BelgianMadCow Oct 2013 #12
Here's what the OP said Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #15
Yep, the OP lays part of the blame at Obama's feet, but BelgianMadCow Oct 2013 #26
Clearly it is allowed if you spend any time here; however Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #29
I'm really, really happy Obama & the Dems haven't caved BelgianMadCow Oct 2013 #34
This message was self-deleted by its author rhett o rick Oct 2013 #51
+100000 Beautifully said. woo me with science Oct 2013 #31
Well put. GreenPartyVoter Oct 2013 #44
+1 leftstreet Oct 2013 #32
The OP is indirectly defending MIC spending. joshcryer Oct 2013 #85
Haven't been around long, so I need clarification. BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #13
No comment Pretzel_Warrior Oct 2013 #19
The admins like to keep a few of the more intelligent and perceptive DUers around Zorra Oct 2013 #35
:^) GreenPartyVoter Oct 2013 #46
the poor thangs must be devastated. Whisp Oct 2013 #37
Better Believe It!!...nt SidDithers Oct 2013 #45
You didn't read the OP then?? I suggest you do so. It is an excellent OP especially for those who sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #134
K&R and Thanks! haikugal Oct 2013 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #8
You should probably know the difference between a Continuing Resolution and a budget jeff47 Oct 2013 #16
Folks just like rooting for a winning team 1000words Oct 2013 #17
DURec... This WAS a "Defensive WIN". The first in over 5 years. bvar22 Oct 2013 #18
agreed but there are few leading dems interested or capable of doing so. this is a great chance to msongs Oct 2013 #36
K&R "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." Egalitarian Thug Oct 2013 #21
"Once again ably demonstrated in too many replies to your post. " ProSense Oct 2013 #22
Thank you for your own revealing contributions. n/t Egalitarian Thug Oct 2013 #120
Both ends of the political spectrum has them. This is one of ours. nt BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #28
DURec leftstreet Oct 2013 #33
Where is Left Underground when you need 'em? RiffRandell Oct 2013 #38
Well said. Thanks. AnotherMcIntosh Oct 2013 #39
We just kicked the can down the road a few months munster69 Oct 2013 #40
K & R dreamnightwind Oct 2013 #41
you better believe it! dionysus Oct 2013 #47
Capital response! grantcart Oct 2013 #50
bingo nt arely staircase Oct 2013 #73
Lol!! JoePhilly Oct 2013 #87
Nice. So everyone, like myself, who has a kid in college, cheapdate Oct 2013 #48
It's a lot more of a win than the usual suspect naysayers predicted. Quite a win actually. Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2013 #56
You post as if humiliating Republicans is an end unto itself. Maedhros Oct 2013 #76
Humiliating Republicans is a means to an end, to majorities to roll back Republican legislation. nt Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2013 #78
But we've seen that when the Democrats have such majorities, Maedhros Oct 2013 #97
Interesting to see some of the numbers that go UP...Besides the stock market... adirondacker Oct 2013 #58
This is a win MFrohike Oct 2013 #59
The Ted Cruz wing of the left has spoken nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #60
Tell us again about the market meltdown LondonReign2 Oct 2013 #111
After you tell me how Democrats could have gotten a better deal geek tragedy Oct 2013 #112
More ignornace LondonReign2 Oct 2013 #114
"more ignornace" You forgot to tell me to get a brain since I'm a moran geek tragedy Oct 2013 #115
We know who the Ted Cruz types are on the Right. Please name those types on the Left you appear to sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #135
the ones who believe everything they hear/read from Russia Today for starters nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #142
Are you referring to the 'left' by any chance? I'm asking because there is an excellent OP sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #148
!!! zappaman Oct 2013 #149
So when I realized two weeks ago that Obama could have invoked the truedelphi Oct 2013 #61
You Don't Mean To Say It's Worse Than THIS... Do You ??? WillyT Oct 2013 #62
Really? Wonder what's been cut. nt. proverbialwisdom Oct 2013 #80
Here: (from DUer upi402) progressoid Oct 2013 #110
Thank you for the details. Over what time frame (reversed before enacted)? Staggering, nonetheless. proverbialwisdom Oct 2013 #117
There's always somebody that's gotta piss all over a good thing Gman Oct 2013 #65
Why are you interrupting the celebration of admitting to being scammed? ProSense Oct 2013 #66
MR ROFFLE WAFFLES is BACK! bobduca Oct 2013 #100
K/R 840high Oct 2013 #67
Call it whatever you want to call it... D23MIURG23 Oct 2013 #68
I think it is some small kind of victory, but... TroglodyteScholar Oct 2013 #69
Pissing on our parade as usual, huh? Typical. AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #70
bwahahaha! arely staircase Oct 2013 #72
That's long been the case, and the "normal" stupidicus Oct 2013 #79
cuz this "crisis" is a smoke screen for corporatism in both parties upi402 Oct 2013 #89
It's on full display here too. Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #95
yep stupidicus Oct 2013 #98
The sequester hurts the MIC more than anyone else. joshcryer Oct 2013 #84
Anytime the word is "BOTH" = "they're all THE SAME" - meaning, BAD WINS.n/t UTUSN Oct 2013 #90
everytime a false equivalency gets passed along a kitten loses its mother reddread Oct 2013 #129
Moonwalking our way "forward"... Junkdrawer Oct 2013 #92
Woohoo, we won, we won! Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #93
No! ProSense Oct 2013 #108
Recommend jsr Oct 2013 #113
It was a win for Democrats Progressive dog Oct 2013 #119
AND we get Lyin' Ryan as co-chair of the "Budget Committee" ... Myrina Oct 2013 #121
Democrats are going into conference with a budget ProSense Oct 2013 #130
K&R! Phlem Oct 2013 #131
Wow! The people with me on ignore will never see that I agree with them! FredStembottom Oct 2013 #141
as usual woo gets it questionseverything Oct 2013 #146
du rec. xchrom Oct 2013 #147
Right on target Grateful for Hope Oct 2013 #152

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
7. No, not really
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:14 PM
Oct 2013

The link merely states that Ryan et al wanted even more damage in the form of entitlement cuts. However, the OP stands I believe in that we are still at sequester levels post-manufactured crisis.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
14. That is a dumbass response
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:22 PM
Oct 2013

Personally I disagree with the OP that, in the context of the finite parameters of an attempt to extort the government, was not a win. I think it was. In addition, the Republicans managed to self-immolate their brand so much that it improves the chances for Democrats in the 2014 election.

I agree with the OP, however, that in the broader context, we haven't won anything. The budget remains at sequestration levels and the Republicans have dragged us so far to the right that that is considered a win. We need the President to use this momentum to start moving us back toward the center, at least rhetorically since we know the Republicans will fight everything short of gutting entitlements.

But carry on with your inane response.

pscot

(21,024 posts)
91. He's going to press for immigration reform
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 10:00 PM
Oct 2013

if I understood him correctly. Has he talked much about ending sequestration? I'm not sure leading us back to the Center is at the top of his to do list. We're going to need a lot of help from the Voters for a real course correction.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
136. What shit gets old? Supporting Democratic Policies NEVER gets old for Democrats. So what are you
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:48 PM
Oct 2013

referring to??

Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #136)

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
124. What do you think about cuts to SS benefits?
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 01:57 PM
Oct 2013

We ARE on a discussion forum and baby talk/babble lowers the standards of any forum. So can you address the actual content of the OP?

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
125. You mean the SS cuts that aren't going to happen, just like the last 10 times they've been
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:06 PM
Oct 2013

predicted around here?

Those the cuts you're talking about?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
139. So you don't support SS cuts, you don't support the Chained CPI. Good, then we are in agreement and
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:51 PM
Oct 2013

I misunderstood you when I thought you were disagreeing with the OP's general point. I look forward to your support when the TP morons push their agenda, which they have already made clear, and anyone here tries to tell us that we 'have to compromise'. This is good news from you. We will need all the support we can get.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
145. Correct, I do not support the SS cuts that are also not happening ... no matter how much
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 03:47 PM
Oct 2013

the Tea freaks demand them, or how much these not happening cuts get predicted on DU.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
20. "The link merely states that Ryan et al wanted even more damage in the form of entitlement cuts."
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:26 PM
Oct 2013

No, the OP doesn't "stand"

It's false equivalency bullshit. The point made about the funding levels ignore that the higher Senate level is a budget passed by Senate Democrats.

This fiasco was all Republican.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023760563

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
23. Once again you don't seem to know what words mean
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:30 PM
Oct 2013

There is no equivalency in the OP, false or otherwise.

Are we still at sequestration funding levels after this passes?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
24. "Scammed again by corporatists in both parties."
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:31 PM
Oct 2013

"Once again you don't seem to know what words mean"

I think you're the one who needs a dictionary. Seriously.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
27. Did the Senate pass a budget that's being blocked by Republicans?
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:33 PM
Oct 2013

What you're attempting to do is cherry pick reality.


zeemike

(18,998 posts)
49. You still did not answer the question.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:06 PM
Oct 2013

Because the answer is yes.
And they will extract even more from the 99%.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
57. There argument can be summed up as: Democrats good, Republicans bad. It makes life so much
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:23 PM
Oct 2013

easier. Just learn to go with it.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
128. Yep.
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:13 PM
Oct 2013

Saves a lot of wear and tear once you stop banging your head against the impermeable bubble of "do no wrong".

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
75. The question shows how unrealistic your expectations are.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 08:06 PM
Oct 2013

The GOP shuts down the government in order to demand an end to Obamacare and additional cuts beyond sequestration. They threatened a default on our national debt, and they wouldn't even allow a vote on a continuing resolution without these things. The senate and Obama got them to drop all of their fucking demands and (if reports are correct) they are going to pass one. They also got tarred and feathered for using this tactic in the process.

All of this happened and you think we lost because we didn't also get rid of sequestration? Should they have magically forced the house to pass immigration reform and gun control legislation while they were at it?

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
82. I did not say we lost.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:30 PM
Oct 2013

And I did not say we won...and that is the problem...this is all presented as a game where you have winners and losers, and we are supposed to be cheerleaders for our "team".
Sometimes I think we have been so conditioned in high school to this we just cannot understand any other way.
But if you want to know who the winners are they are those of the status quo, because nothing will change for the better for those who are not at the top...we will pay and they will take, as it has been for many years now...and they will keep us busy at the pep rallies cheering on our team and with the illusion of winning some prize that don't give a shit about.

In every game you have an opponent, and that opponent is always the evil one...in fact the more evil the better....just as good cop is your friend and bad cop out to get you...that situation makes you easily manipulated and that is what they do.

Sorry if this sounds too negative for you...but the first step in changing things is recognizing the problem no matter how unpleasant it is.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
94. Its not "too negative", its a false equivalence.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 10:36 PM
Oct 2013

If Obama and the Democrats wanted sequestration, then why didn't they pass it in 2009 when they controlled both houses and the presidency?

We got into our current situation because the democrats lost a bunch of fights a lot like this most recent one. The fact that the dems got politically outmaneuvered allowed the GOP *who have a distinctly different agenda than the dems* to extract some of their demands. I'm not going to pretend that the GOP and the Dems don't serve some of the same interests, but there are significant tangible advantages to having the Dems setting policy. Dems are often willing to write fact-based policies and often have an interest in seeing the general welfare of the country attended to, whereas the GOP is full of a mix of insane reality deniers and full blown fascist kleptocrats.

I say we "won" because the GOP tried to make things worse again, just like they did this past spring, only this time instead of getting sequestration cuts, the Dems allowed them nothing but humiliation. That isn't an "illusion of winning some prize", its real livelihoods that were spared another act of economic vandalism. If things really go well then maybe the GOP will lose the house next year, and the Dems will do away with sequestration and pass a reasonable budget in 2015, just as they did in 2009. Personally I would consider that significant progress.

So no, I'm not convinced that this is some kind of conspiracy circus where all of the players work for the Kochs. I think the fact that we are not going over the debt ceiling, and not giving the republicans more spending cuts are real benefits we won.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
101. I made no equivalence
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 11:32 PM
Oct 2013

And my other post to you addresses this.

We scored a point on the board, and that is progress but not a win.

And of Obama wanted to close Gitmo then why did he not do it?...if he wanted healthcare for all why not just lower the age for Medicare to 25 or something?...because bad cop would raise hell and everyone is afraid of bad cop GOP...cause that is what he is there for....that is his job.

We will have won, when we take the money out of politics and elect people who will not sell us out....and we have miles to go before we sleep.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
102. If you are not making an equivalence then you are using the wrong metaphor.
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 12:25 AM
Oct 2013

People playing "good cop bad cop" are conspiring to a particular end. I do not think that the democrats and republicans have an ongoing deal to simulate conflict in order to achieve certain ends, but this is what you are implying by using that metaphor.

I agree that we have plenty of work to do in terms of improving the quality of our representation. I think we have "won" in this case in the sense of winning a battle, but I don't mean to claim that we have won the war.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
109. Making deals like that are for fools.
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 08:31 AM
Oct 2013

And never happens in real life...people don't get together in smoke filled rooms and conspire to work against us...that is just for the movies.
No more than a mobster calls in his hit man and tells him to whack someone...things like that are never said in real life.

No the Dems are not conspiring with the GOP to do anything, but the people behind the scene pull the strings never the less...and they never say it out loud...that kind of bribery is for fools, and they are not fools.

But if it makes you feel better to have a sense of winning then feel that way, but don't take your eyes off the prize...which is a long way down the road...

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
96. You also avoided my question, so I'll rephrase and ask again.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 10:45 PM
Oct 2013

How much did the Democrats have to get out of this failed GOP attempt to defund Obamacare and extract more spending cuts, in order for us to feel we made progress?

Should they have ended sequestration as well, against the wishes of the GOP controlled house?

Should they have goaded enough republicans into quitting to shift the balance of power?

Should they have won stimulus spending?

Or are you just totally closed off to the idea that any progress can come out of Washington, because obviously all of these people are the same anyway?

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
99. Making progress is not winning.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 11:15 PM
Oct 2013

And I have no intention of avoiding any question.
But if Bad cop says he is going to take you in the cell and beat you with a rubber hose, and the good cop says he will stop him if you just confess to the crime do you call that a win if the good cop prevails?...but you have made progress...you kept yourself from getting the shit kicked out of you...but you did not win.
But that is how the game of triangulation is played...threaten you with something terrible so you will be happy with just something bad.

I will be happy when the shutdown and threat of default is over...and I am glad they stood up to the bullies, but I will not delude myself by calling it a win....we are miles away from any win...at least for most of the country that is...who will continue to pay the price so that Wall Street can continue making the big bucks off of the backs of main street.
And we are miles away from any reform in congress to make it represent the majority of Americans interist....miles away from any win.
I don't know any other way to answer that question.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
105. Its a matter of semantics whether making progress is considered winning.
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 12:41 AM
Oct 2013

I'm not going to tell you how you should define winning, but making progress is the kind of winning I was talking about.

As for the rest, I think you should decide whether you are actually conflating the democrats and republicans or not. If you aren't actually accusing the dems of working with the GOP in order to fuck us, then I don't see how your cop metaphor applies. Furthermore, I don't think it maps onto the specifics of the situation well. The democrats didn't extract anything comparable to a confession from us in return for keeping the republicans from brutalizing us with a default.

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
116. Exactly, and again, to play the REAL game you need to keep your eyes on the ball
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 11:15 AM
Oct 2013

The effers play games with shadows in the cave and others think they have accomplished something by watching.

indepat

(20,899 posts)
30. Had thought woo me with science's OP was spot on. Thanks for clarifying that we are not
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:37 PM
Oct 2013

being governed from the center-right or even further to the right notwithstanding all the data suggesting a further accumulation of wealth among a precious few, continued burgeoning income disparity, falling wages and standard of living, the 40 million or more needing food stamps alleviate food insecurity, a ludicrous minimum wage not even one-half of that of Australia's, continued high rates of unemployment, the prospects of cuts in social security and Medicare benefits, a continued egregiously bloated MIC budget with the likes of the F-35, and a drop in quality-of-life rankings factors to the bottom or near the bottom among all industrialized nations.

indepat

(20,899 posts)
77. Or that Mitt Romney's multi-million dollar annual income is still taxed playing like it were
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 08:26 PM
Oct 2013

capital gains and leaving der Mittens with little more total Federal tax liability, as a percent of his income, than is paid as a percent of total income on the earned income of the poorest among us. Or that as much as 85% of social security is still taxed at the taxpayer's highest marginal rate, thanks to WJC, joyously continued by junior, and, oops, also continued by bho, but surely his people don't realize that little gem. The abject regressiveness of the Federal income tax code has been only minutely reduced and is not the effective corporate income tax rate in the 7% range? Yet all together, let's cut social security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits before any of the aforementioned egregiously inequitable income tax issues are addressed. PS woo me with science: your grasp of all issues addressed in your OP is amazing to me.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
64. But, but being run from the right is ok if it is a Democrat. You see the word means everything.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:34 PM
Oct 2013

If Chris Christie were to change parties today, he would become Dog to some here. They dont care about ideologies or policies, they only care about the golden "D". You have to give them some credit. It does make their life easier. I did have to laugh when Liebershit ran as an Independent. The loyalist didnt know whether to shit or go stupid. Lamont was the golden "D" but the Democratic machine supported their corporatist buddy Liebershit.

And just remember, 20 lashes is soooo much better than 50.

indepat

(20,899 posts)
71. My maternal grand-father had been an early campaign manager for Al Gore, Sr. and this native
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:58 PM
Oct 2013

Tennessean had supported Al Gore, Jr., but frankly did not realize in 2000 what a complete s*it-head Liebershit were and what a dumbfu*k holistically bad choice Liebershit had been.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
54. Let me sum up your argument - Republicans are bad, Democrats are good.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:19 PM
Oct 2013

All decision by all Democrats are good all the time. And all that dare question a Democrat shall be here to called a hater or other similar name.

Of course we can rationalize that we are better off than if the world were to implode, but we got a crappy deal. Ask the people at the foodbanks or foodlines.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
88. Um, no, Democrats passed a budget that ended the sequester.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:43 PM
Oct 2013

Republicans didn't and held the economy hostage.

Therefore there is a difference.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
103. Of course there is a difference. THat's not the point. Of course what we got was better than
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 12:34 AM
Oct 2013

nothing, but we got the Ryan budget. Now isnt that something. IMO the OP is pointing out that the middle class got screwed. You just want to make sure that the Democrats are blameless. It would be so very easy if we could tell the good guys from the bad guys by the letter after their names. But the battle isnt between the D's and R's, it's between the corporatists and the 99%.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
106. The Ryan budget assumes the sequester is made permanent.
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 12:47 AM
Oct 2013

But it's even worse than that because it repeals Obamacare and guts Medicare and Medicaid:



The middle class didn't get screwed by the Democrats because the Democrats passed their budget (the ACA takes up Medicare and Medicaid which is why it's "cut" under the Democratic plan).

So, no, we didn't get the Ryan budget. If anything most programs were exempted from the sequester (with the exception of WIC and LIHEAP; sadly). And defense / the MIC is losing out the most.

Boehner did not, in fact, get 98% of what he wanted. He got shit all in the sequester.

former9thward

(32,016 posts)
118. Most programs were not exempted from the sequester.
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 12:07 PM
Oct 2013

It affects non-defense agencies almost at the same level as defense.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
122. The OP is absolutely CORRECT. And the proof will very soon become evident to those who have so far
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 01:50 PM
Oct 2013

been distracted by the 'blue team v red team' game that has been played.

On the good side is the fact that not all of the people have been distracted.

The test will come any day now when they get down to the 'compromises' that were made. Or rather to the real reasons for all of this.

Watch for the arguments for the Chained CPI as a warning sing. It has already begun.

Great OP, one of the best on DU for a long time.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
133. You are too late. It has already begun. But with the same pressure Liberals applied re the Summers
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:44 PM
Oct 2013

nomination, hopefully we will ensure that there will be NO Chained CPI or any cuts to SS. We ARE powerful, Liberal voices, when we are organized. And I am happy that Liberal Orgs across the country have been ready for this ever since the President signaled his willingness to compromise on those issues.

They will try, they ARE trying. But let's hope that the Dem Party now understands that there can be no compromise with these bullies and refuses to even discuss it, a position that would make them extremely popular with a vast majority of the American people, who are opposed to the Govt messing with THEIR SS fund.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
144. Well, he's been assigned to the Budget Committee ...
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 03:43 PM
Oct 2013

At least that's what his page says ...

Sanders Named to Budget Conference
Sen. Sanders was appointed to a conference committee to try to reconcile separate budget documents passed by the House and Senate this year. “I look forward to the negotiations that will take place,” Sanders said on MSNBC. “The time is long overdue that we stood up for the working families of this country, for the children and for the elderly and not move toward deficit reduction on the backs of the most vulnerable people," Sanders said in a floor speech on WCAX-TV.


http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/newswatch/101713

So clearly he must be part of the secret plan to kill social security ... right?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
150. Why do you say 'so clearly he must be part of the secret plan to kill Social Security'?? Ryan is on
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 04:47 PM
Oct 2013

that Committee also. We KNOW he supports, eg, the Chained CPI and any other deceptively named attempt to cut SS benefits.

We know Bernie Sanders does not. Who do you think should win that argument? Are you FOR or AGAINST the Chained CPI? It's a simple question. I'm with Bernie Sanders on this.

I assume you misspoke when you implied that Bernie Sanders was against SS?

I wish you would speak directly as your comments are difficult to understand.

So once again, a simple question, are you for or against the Chained CPI?

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
151. Because we're being scammed by the corpratists in both parties.
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 05:33 PM
Oct 2013

And a committee has been created to carry out the scam. And Bernie is on it.

I suppose that Bernie could be against such cuts ... but if Obama and the GOP plan to use that committee to carry out their scam, than Bernie must be in on it.

Unless, maybe the President isn't part of this scam.

And as I've said before, I am against these cuts you speak of. They aren't happening. And I'm against them. But they aren't happening.

As for being difficult to understand ... see ... that's how I feel about these conspiracy theories about Obama's secret plan to kill social security. I mean, way back in 2009, if he really wanted to kill Social Security, the easy way to do it would have been to ask for a stimulus that was way bigger and have that not pass.

See, then the market keeps dropping, the economy is truly a mess, and THAT's when you claim that SS cuts are necessary to save the country. THAT would have made sense.

But that's not what has happened. The economy has improved (complain all you want, but things are much better than in early 2009). The market is UP, UE is back down to 7.3%, and the deficit is dropping.

If this is THE TIME for the President to spring this scam on us, his timing isn't very good. Which is why I have trouble understanding all of you folks who are SURE that the SS cuts are definitely going to happen THIS TIME.

The time to do it, was back then, not now. Unless their plan is far more creative. And getting Bernie to go along with it would be very creative.

See?

Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #2)

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
9. The OP's thesis is the Dems in gov are the enemy
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:15 PM
Oct 2013

We are supposed to cast aspersions on all in Washington equally. We are supposed to seize this moment to realize Dems are bad and Obama is a failure. The whole system is rotten and we should trust no one.

No solutions in the post, just mindless negativism and always killing of any pride for our Democratic leaders including Obama.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
104. How dishonest to misrepresent the OP. I guess you are unable to argue against what he actually
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 12:38 AM
Oct 2013

wrote. Can you spell S T R A W M A N ? It's interesting that you would be happy that we got a budget that Ryan proposed. You may be happy but believe me those on foodstamps are suffering.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
81. Or, if the perpetually disgruntled are
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:30 PM
Oct 2013

perpetually disgruntled.

Every positive must be countered.

It's a common pattern.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
83. Or if the perpetually fucked over
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:38 PM
Oct 2013

Are perpetually fucked over...
Every fucking must not be such a bad thing...they will give you the reach around afterwords and you should be happy with that.

BelgianMadCow

(5,379 posts)
12. The only thing that's obvious is that the OP said no such thing
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:19 PM
Oct 2013

and therefore, it's your attack that becomes obvious.

The OP clearly blames "corporatists in both parties".

Granted, that may include Obama. For me, it does, and has ever since he chose Timothy Geithner to do some bailing out.

That of course doesn't mean I can't appreciate the good things Obama has done - stepping back on Syria and standing firm this time are not minor things.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
15. Here's what the OP said
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:24 PM
Oct 2013
The faux fiscal "crisis" should have been utterly rejected by a Democratic President TWO YEARS ago. Let's remember how we got started down this road of sequestrations and shutdowns in the first place. Republicans should have been slapped down hard then. Instead, the axe of sequestration was embraced by Democrats, and we got soaring speeches about eating our peas.


Yup. It's all Obama's fault the shit heads in Congress couldn't/wouldn't pass spending that would remove sequestration.

Your reasoning and conclusions are faulty. Try again.

BelgianMadCow

(5,379 posts)
26. Yep, the OP lays part of the blame at Obama's feet, but
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:33 PM
Oct 2013

you made that to be "it's ALL Obama's fault", which is directly contradicted by the OP title.

It looks like you're trying to paint the OP as from "an Obama hater". I wouldn't know and I don't care. I prefer discussing on the merits, instead of character assasination.

Is criticism of Obama allowed, in your view?

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
29. Clearly it is allowed if you spend any time here; however
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:36 PM
Oct 2013

I don't think Democrats are allowed to celebrate very positive news without a bunch of shit being flung by others as you'll notice from the dozen posts telling us we're not supposed to celebrate or even feel joy.

It is all sad all the time on KLJY FML radio

BelgianMadCow

(5,379 posts)
34. I'm really, really happy Obama & the Dems haven't caved
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:45 PM
Oct 2013

to the extortion. Yet, a sequester level CR isn't exactly reason to bring out the champagne. I can think both things at the same time, and I'm happy there's people on DU lucid enough to pick up on that. I don't know why you have to call it shitflinging. You disagree with the OP, OK.

You and I probably have a very different view of party politics - I believe it's part of the problem. You don't, I guess.

I can respect that. Who knows, maybe the Democratic party can be taken back from the corporate interests. The way I see it, the way money is allowed in US politics, the corporate interests are heavily overrepresented in both parties (but ofc more with the repubs). Do you disagree?

Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #29)

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
31. +100000 Beautifully said.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:42 PM
Oct 2013

The defense is *always* to try to make it about being mean to Obama or disloyal to Democrats. We are not supposed to notice that every single deal moves us rightward, or to remember how the actions of both parties led us here.

We are to focus on cheering the team, and not to notice that every single outcome serves corporate interests. And we are not to focus on the billions and billions of dollars pouring into Washington, that explains clearly why they keep doing what they do.

We are to fixate on personal and team loyalties instead of noticing and seriously addressing the grave systemic problem of corporate money that now drives policy in both parties.

The corporatists in both parties get away with what they do precisely because they keep us circling the wagons around our team and refusing to acknowledge the obvious.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
85. The OP is indirectly defending MIC spending.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:40 PM
Oct 2013

A huge chunk of social welfare projects were saved by the Democrats under the sequester. Boehner did not in fact get 98% of what he wanted.

 
13. Haven't been around long, so I need clarification.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:21 PM
Oct 2013

Do the admins just keep these people around for our amusement or do they fly under the radar just enough not to get the boot?

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
35. The admins like to keep a few of the more intelligent and perceptive DUers around
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:46 PM
Oct 2013

for analysis and critical thinking.

Helps to balance out the Third Way corporatists.

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the OP, but I personally find it refreshing to read some genuine progressive opinions on DU every once in awhile.

Cheerleading has it's place, especially around election time, but there are times it takes serious skepticism and insight to cut through all the fluff and glory.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
134. You didn't read the OP then?? I suggest you do so. It is an excellent OP especially for those who
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:45 PM
Oct 2013

care about the issues that are of the most importance to the American people.

Response to woo me with science (Original post)

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
16. You should probably know the difference between a Continuing Resolution and a budget
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:25 PM
Oct 2013

before declaring hidden evil corporatists are out to get us all.

 

1000words

(7,051 posts)
17. Folks just like rooting for a winning team
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:25 PM
Oct 2013

Good cop/Bad cop.

Both are using the the other for cover while serving the same master.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
18. DURec... This WAS a "Defensive WIN". The first in over 5 years.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:25 PM
Oct 2013

This WAS a "Defensive WIN". The Democrats held the line, and forced the Republicans to PUNT.
NOW, the Party NEEDS to move the ball and Score some Points with a strong OFFENSE!



NOW, it is time to score some points for the WIN with a STRONG, Unified OFFENSE.
The Dems would be foolish to just walk away from this opportunity.

There are a number of different Points Scoring Offensive Opportunities available,
but I would like to see The Party take on the Republican Governors and Republican State Congresses who turned down the Medicaid Expansion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023863594

msongs

(67,412 posts)
36. agreed but there are few leading dems interested or capable of doing so. this is a great chance to
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:48 PM
Oct 2013

label republicans (not tea baggers) as obstructionist and put out some new plans to make things better. marginal victories over procedure are not sufficient. dems must give voters something worth voting FOR, not just something worth voting against.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
21. K&R "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:28 PM
Oct 2013

Once again ably demonstrated in too many replies to your post.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
22. "Once again ably demonstrated in too many replies to your post. "
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 05:30 PM
Oct 2013

Or the OP, which is pure false equivalency BS.

Chuck Todd couldn't have done any better.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
41. K & R
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 06:37 PM
Oct 2013

Sequestration was a huge mistake. That whole search for a grand bargain, with a commission composed of deficit hawks, supported by the supposedly unacceptable threat of sequestration, was a huge mistake, and precisely the opposite of what the economy actually needed.

We are still living with the sequestration that was apparently never supposed to happen. There will a budget battle coming soon, more search for grand bargains? We'll see.

I do congratulate the president for standing his ground on this extortion of the nation over the debt limit. If our money is to be the world's reserve currency, we can't keep going through this, investors will not trust our bonds. So kudos to him for that.

I would have considered it a true victory if the agreement had included language that abolished the debt ceiling. Basically we stood firm and held our ground.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
48. Nice. So everyone, like myself, who has a kid in college,
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:04 PM
Oct 2013

a job that depends on a functioning economy and zero dollars in the bank, and who would be kind-of happy if we avoided a possible collapse of the bond market that would easily have rippled through the entire global financial system and put me out of work, again, like in 2008, is nothing more than a craven "corporatist" or else a dupe who was "scammed". Thanks, but no thanks.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,002 posts)
56. It's a lot more of a win than the usual suspect naysayers predicted. Quite a win actually.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:22 PM
Oct 2013

Howy many times in following DU have you seen the press, even RW press like the Wall Street Journal, say that the Republicans crashed and burned?

How many times that the Republicans have dropped so precipitously in such a short period of time?

How many times that there is open warfare inside the Republican party to this great extent?

Answer: Never before in the existence of DU and a long time before that too.

But, the doom-and-gloomers are already kicking the United Democratic Party for losing the next fight and every one there after.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
76. You post as if humiliating Republicans is an end unto itself.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 08:15 PM
Oct 2013

Sure it's fun to watch the Republican Party collapse under its own weight and revel in the schadenfreude, but at the end of the day this country needs real solutions to real problems. Austerity and the TPP do not fit the bill.

The underlying assumption is that the Democrats are poised to spring into action with solid liberal policies if only the Republicans can be neutralized. This is an objectively invalid assumption: nothing in the recent history of either the Democratic Party's behavior or its rhetoric suggests that liberal policies are the goal.

Call it doom-and-gloom if you want. I call it drawing a line in the sand: this much backsliding from the Party of FDR - AND NO MORE.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
97. But we've seen that when the Democrats have such majorities,
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 10:47 PM
Oct 2013

the roll back doesn't happen. The same policies march forward.

This is why it's not enough to defeat Republicans - we have to move Democrats to our position.

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
58. Interesting to see some of the numbers that go UP...Besides the stock market...
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:24 PM
Oct 2013

"number of homeless New Yorkers in shelters has risen by more than 60 percent over the past decade"

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
59. This is a win
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:26 PM
Oct 2013

It's a win for only one reason. Those silly bastards didn't destroy the global economy. It's a sad win, given what we won, but recognize the small blessings when they come.

As for the budget itself, that's a lost cause for now. Honestly, until people in this country stop pretending that taxes and bond sales are somehow linked to federal spending, we're going to go through this bullshit. Sure, the floodgates should opened from Washington and the country should be swimming in money, but too many people have the wrong idea of where we get dollars.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
112. After you tell me how Democrats could have gotten a better deal
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 10:34 AM
Oct 2013

without using the Lee/Cruz logic of "just be more stubborn and the other side will give us everything we want."

The reason why us "woodchucks" are so harsh sometimes towards Ted Cruz types on the left is that we're never going to let them do to us what the Cruz/Lee/Yoho types have done to the Republicans.

What's funny is that the language that Lee/Cruz use towards Establishment Republicans is almost identical to what the OP and his crowd use towards Establishment Democrats (e.g. both parties are the same, the only reason we don't have everything we want is that Establishment Democrats are cowardly and surrender) etc etc.

The OP and the Teapublicans have the exact same hatred of any kind of negotiation, compromise, and basic engagement with the process of governance. They don't want to govern, they want to complain about those who do govern.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
114. More ignornace
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 10:42 AM
Oct 2013

I've already said that within the context of the shutdown/debt limit this was a win. Now, we need to take the next step and drag the discussion back to the left rathert than being satisfied with a Paul Ryan budget.

There are no Ted Cruz Democrats, what a stupid and ignorant statement. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
115. "more ignornace" You forgot to tell me to get a brain since I'm a moran
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 10:45 AM
Oct 2013
This is not a win, except for corporate thieves in both parties.

Every single deal, every single orchestrated crisis, every single shock doctrine scam moves us further into corporate slavery. We are being played by both corporate parties, over and over again.




Apparently you didn't read the OP. They're decrying what the Democrats did here as the work of corporate thieves becaues the deal kept the sequester levels of spending, plus the usual loons chiming in the comments who see this deal as a pre-arranged bit of theater between the two parties as part of their grand conspiracy to destroy what's good about America.



And if you think there are no purists on the left who simply refuse to acknowledge that we need to negotiate with Republicans on budgetary issues . . .

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
135. We know who the Ted Cruz types are on the Right. Please name those types on the Left you appear to
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:47 PM
Oct 2013

have identified. For me, they are the Third Way elements that have infiltrated the Party supporting the same policies Cruz does. I'd like to hear your view, since you brought it up, of who they are??

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
148. Are you referring to the 'left' by any chance? I'm asking because there is an excellent OP
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 04:34 PM
Oct 2013

explaining where all these seemingly random attacks on the Left actually originated. Not that it should be any surprise, but seeing them on Dem forums over the past several years raised a lot of questions. The OP in question clearly uncovers their origin.

Your answer is a non-answer. So I ask again as I am a very detail oriented person and like to fully understand things 'who are these Cruz types on the 'left' you refer to? Hard to imagine anyone on the left supporting Cruz's position on the Chained CPI eg. So I'm curious to know who you have in mind.

RT is an excellent News Source, btw. Thanks for mentioning it. It won a very prestigious and well deserved award recently after only two years of existence for its news coverage. Not popular with the Right though, as anyone can understand. It does have that often claimed but rarely found in our own Corporate Media, 'liberal bias', which I'm sure you as a Dem would appreciate. One of the most watched news sources even here now which is not surprising.

And who believes everything they see or hear on TV or the Internet? That is a strange thing to say. I don't know a single person, especially Progressive Dems who are generally far more discerning and questioning than the Far Right, who doesn't question everything they see or hear anywhere. You seem to know a lot of strange people, or are you trying to be funny? I did laugh so I guess it was the latter?

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
61. So when I realized two weeks ago that Obama could have invoked the
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:29 PM
Oct 2013

Fourteenth Amendment and stopped the government from shutting down, but two of his "economic advisers" told him not to, I have to wonder how much money those advisers are making on "shorting" some stocks, and bidding up the prices on commodities.

The Corporatists have won over this country. And they keep winning until we rid ourselves of all thsoe who are elected but the top Two Percent of our elected officials who play fair and who play FOR THE DAMN MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASSES.

Period.

progressoid

(49,991 posts)
110. Here: (from DUer upi402)
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 10:13 AM
Oct 2013

Health care

$20 million cut from the Maternal, Infant, and Early Childhood Home Visiting Programs
$10 million cut from the World Trade Center Health Program Fund
$168 million cut from Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
$75 million cut from the Aging and Disability Services Programs

Housing

$199 million cut from public housing
$96 million cut from Homeless Assistance Grants
$17 million cut from Housing Opportunities for Persons with AIDS
$19 million cut from Housing for the Elderly
$175 million cut from Low Income Home Energy Assistance

Disaster and Emergency

$928 million cut from FEMA’s disaster relief money
$6 million cut from Emergency Food and Shelter
$70 million cut from the Agricultural Disaster Relief Fund at USDA
$61 million cut from the Hazardous Substance Superfund at EPA
$125 million cut from the Wildland Fire Management
$53 million cut from Salaries and Expenses at the Food Safety and Inspection Service

Obamacare

$13 million cut from the Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan Program (Co-ops)
$57 million cut from the Health Care Fraud and Abuse Control
$51 million cut from the Prevention and Public Health Fund
$27 million cut from the State Grants and Demonstrations
$44 million cut from the Affordable Insurance Exchange Grants program

Education

$633 million cut from the Department of Education’s Special Education programs
$184 million cut from Rehabilitation Services and Disability Research
$71 million cut from administration at the Office of Federal Student Aid
$116 million cut from Higher Education
$86 million cut from Student Financial Assistance

Immigration

$512 million cut from Customs and Border Protection
$17 million cut from Automation Modernization, Customs and Border Protection
$20 million cut from Border Security Fencing, Infrastructure, and Technology

Security

$79 million cut from Embassy Security, Construction, and Maintenance
$604 million cut from National Nuclear Security Administration
$232 million cut from the Federal Aviation Administration
$394 million cut from Defense Environmental Cleanup

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
66. Why are you interrupting the celebration of admitting to being scammed?
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:48 PM
Oct 2013

I mean, if you're not willing to accept that this deal means you're a sucker, back out of this thread.



D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
68. Call it whatever you want to call it...
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:49 PM
Oct 2013

But I'm not seeing how we could have gotten a better outcome than the one we are likely to get. As far as I can see, the house republicans just tried to blackmail the senate and the president, and they basically got nothing out of it except severe humiliation and disunity. They damaged our economy in the process of course, but if this isn't the best outcome we could have gotten, what is the better one you were hoping for? And what exactly were Reid and Obama supposed to do to bring this hypothetical "win" about?

TroglodyteScholar

(5,477 posts)
69. I think it is some small kind of victory, but...
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:56 PM
Oct 2013

We definitely do need to remember how drastically our expectations have been lowered....

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
70. Pissing on our parade as usual, huh? Typical.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 07:57 PM
Oct 2013

But then again, the Davey Downers on this site ALWAYS seem to take whatever wins we can get, big or small, and turn it into something negative if it doesn't fit their exact specifications 100%(as a former "emoprog" myself at one point, I should know).

It's pretty much expected, but then again, still frustrating, because all it ends up doing is demotivating people.....

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
79. That's long been the case, and the "normal"
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:09 PM
Oct 2013

the only thing that's changing is the methods and means by which they "get it done".

Now it's just wouldbe tyranny by a Pee Party minority that's being used to put restraints on what is "politically possible" and to explain the Neville Chamberlin-like behavior on the part of dems. It's no longer just a good cop/bad cop situation, but rather a good cop/very, very bad cop one. As one who thought from the beginning that the whole point of the Pee Party formation was to drag the already off center ideological dividing line in DC farther to the right, I'm unsurprised by their tactics, but nonetheless alarmed by the success they've enjoyed so far.

WHat I don't get, is if the dems are so assured that the brown demographic tsunami is inevitably gonna drown the rightwingnut rats, and the country will come to love the first hostage Obamacare as they currently do SS, Medicare/Medicaid, why it is they aren't in more of the bully role. Being the adults in the room does nothing about the millions that will remain uninsured despite Obamacare, the jobs/stagnant wages/wealth inequality problems, or the need for more action on the biggest and most important issue of this or any other time, AGW. Like JC with the moneychangers, they need to adjust their conduct in a way that's appropriate for the problem to be solved, which are many.

The only win outta this mess is whatever negative impact it will have on the 2014 results in the house for repubs. Should they lose it, then the "politically possible" will once again be restrained by the tyranny of the minority in the senate, assuming that 60 vote requirement thing remains intact -- another thing nothing can be done about, or should I say has been done about, despite the high costs to us little people they allegedly represent.

Repugs no longer believe in democracy as this CR battle has shown, and far too many dems in DC are either oblivious to that or impotent in the face of the danger it poses to our republic and we little people in it. That makes them part of the problem whether they share the goal of rule by corporatism/fascism or not.

good post

upi402

(16,854 posts)
89. cuz this "crisis" is a smoke screen for corporatism in both parties
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:44 PM
Oct 2013

I've said it all along. We'll see how it plays out.

Democracy here is a charade that can dupe all demographics.

I'm afraid the solution will end up coming from the streets.

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
98. yep
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 10:50 PM
Oct 2013

I'd say the best case scenaro is more of the same until at least the next election.

I don't know that it is as much a question of them all being duped, just satisfied with what the dems currently are as opposed to what they once were before the rise of the DLC.

Simon Rosenberg, a long time Democratic campaign operative and strategist, said recently, "there is a strong argument to be made that the DLC has been the most influential think tank in American politics over the past generation... the DLC helped set in motion a period of party modernization that has helped the Democratic Party overcome the potent and ultimately ruinous rise of the New Right."[26]


that's the difference that gives rise to most of the conflicts around here, and the point I read being made in the TP -- the choice between slow and fast acting poison/"shit sandwiches" the uninterrupted rightward shift in DC we have represents, even in times like this when the voting public heads left.

I'm not so sure about the "street solution" thing, but it would be a long story...lol

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
84. The sequester hurts the MIC more than anyone else.
Wed Oct 16, 2013, 09:38 PM
Oct 2013

Social Security, Medicaid, federal pensions and veteran's benefits are exempt.

Medicare gets "cut" but those cuts are alleviated by the ACA (the Democrats used a clever accounting trick to get this to happen) and it is going to still grow by 6% under the Budget Control Act.

Yes, your argument is akin to Boehner's "I got 99% of what I wanted."

When you look at this final agreement that we came to with the White House, I got 98 percent of what I wanted. I'm pretty happy.


The reality is that military defense spending is going to drop by billions of dollars over the ensuing years.

The worst hit, as in a social level, are those on WIC, and LIHEAP. Otherwise the Democrats successfully exempted SNAP and TANF.

The biggest hit to progressives ideals at a monetary level is that the sequester absolutely guts research funding (almost 10%).

It's actually a damn depressing sentiment that the reason the GDP isn't going to fare so well under the sequester is because the US economy is so intrinsically linked to the MIC. :/
 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
129. everytime a false equivalency gets passed along a kitten loses its mother
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:14 PM
Oct 2013

is there any laziness more harmful than intellectual?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Myrina

(12,296 posts)
121. AND we get Lyin' Ryan as co-chair of the "Budget Committee" ...
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 01:44 PM
Oct 2013

... to force feed the rest of his austerity bullshit to the rest of us.

AND POTUS saying in his speech this morning that Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid are the biggest long term expenses the country has to deal with.

Average working folk of America: BOHICA (bend over, here it comes again) ...

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
130. Democrats are going into conference with a budget
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:15 PM
Oct 2013

that ends the sequester.

Wonkbook: Five reasons Republicans lost — and one reason they won
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023869945

Sanders Named to Budget Conference
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023870099

FredStembottom

(2,928 posts)
141. Wow! The people with me on ignore will never see that I agree with them!
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 02:53 PM
Oct 2013

This clearly a win for Dems. It's a CR and not a budget.
This whole fake drama stirred up by Tea Party loons has failed so wonderfully that it has changed the bath-water of American opinion in our favor. That was the Step 1 that has been needed for years.
Now that it's here, steps 2, 3 and etc. now have a chance of commencing.

We needed this. We won it in a unified way and today is a little better than yesterday.


Hi ProSense! [crickets]

questionseverything

(9,655 posts)
146. as usual woo gets it
Thu Oct 17, 2013, 03:51 PM
Oct 2013

with a system where as soon as a representative gets elected they quickly have to turn to fund raising for the next election,what else could we expect to get but corporate players? after all the corps have all the money

and yet this is the system we have,at least for now

now is the time to flood the house with calls to EXPAND food stamps not cut them..afterall the corp farms are gonna get their money so why shouldn't the people get their food? we already pay for it...FEED AMERICANS FIRST

now is the time to fight for WIC......it is an extremely popular program and to fight against it makes repubs look like monsters,i live in a very red area but no one will admit to wanting to starve infants

here is a simple idea to help with income equality,an idea tea peops would love ,double the personal income exemption,or better yet triple it from 3500 to 10,500......it would decrease taxes for every1 but the guy making a million plus gets a tiny fraction of help while the guy at the bottom gets a huge decrease in his burden...pay for it with a slight raise in the death tax for huge estates

these are just ideas off the top of my head but we need a conversation and list of demands

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Scammed again by corporat...