General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsScammed again by corporatists in both parties.
No, it's not a win. Let's not forget what really happens as a result of this deal. And let's not forget how we got here.
Let's remember this critical point made by DUer, cui bono:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023864395
But what is in the bill being passed is a budget with sequestration. A bill with less spending than Ryan's budget.
And let's repeat a post by leveymg that also explains what is really going on here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3839411
67. It's because this lunacy is all a quite rational way to propel the Center-Right Austerity agenda.
That's precisely why I don't believe this BS about 40 Teahadis being responsible for the "crisis."
A partial shutdown suits the deficit hawks in both parties just fine, since it's been adjusted so it doesn't actually impact payrolls in the military and Intelligence agencies. This is simply austerity and cuts to social programs without anyone having to actually vote for it, and that's making the Center-Right smile.
Of course, they won't allow actual default of the debt - the "threat" of that just another psychological device to make this seem like a real crisis. It's not - it's simply austerity by default.
It has caused and will cause more pain to the 99 percent, and it never should have gone this far. The faux fiscal "crisis" should have been utterly rejected by a Democratic President TWO YEARS ago. Let's remember how we got started down this road of sequestrations and shutdowns in the first place. Republicans should have been slapped down hard then. Instead, the axe of sequestration was embraced by Democrats, and we got soaring speeches about eating our peas.
Now we have perpetual rule by crisis, repeated shock doctrine. Over and over again, options are deliberately narrowed until two shit sandwiches are placed before us, and we are taught to cry victory at receiving the slightly less shitty and painful option. Every outcome hurts the 99 percent and enriches the one percent a little bit more.http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023864395
But what is in the bill being passed is a budget with sequestration. A bill with less spending than Ryan's budget.
This is not a win, except for corporate thieves in both parties.
Every single deal, every single orchestrated crisis, every single shock doctrine scam moves us further into corporate slavery. We are being played by both corporate parties, over and over again.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)The link merely states that Ryan et al wanted even more damage in the form of entitlement cuts. However, the OP stands I believe in that we are still at sequester levels post-manufactured crisis.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Blah blah blah.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Personally I disagree with the OP that, in the context of the finite parameters of an attempt to extort the government, was not a win. I think it was. In addition, the Republicans managed to self-immolate their brand so much that it improves the chances for Democrats in the 2014 election.
I agree with the OP, however, that in the broader context, we haven't won anything. The budget remains at sequestration levels and the Republicans have dragged us so far to the right that that is considered a win. We need the President to use this momentum to start moving us back toward the center, at least rhetorically since we know the Republicans will fight everything short of gutting entitlements.
But carry on with your inane response.
pscot
(21,024 posts)if I understood him correctly. Has he talked much about ending sequestration? I'm not sure leading us back to the Center is at the top of his to do list. We're going to need a lot of help from the Voters for a real course correction.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and always from the same perpetually outraged sources.
Sid
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)referring to??
Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #136)
Post removed
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)have their say.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)We ARE on a discussion forum and baby talk/babble lowers the standards of any forum. So can you address the actual content of the OP?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)predicted around here?
Those the cuts you're talking about?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I misunderstood you when I thought you were disagreeing with the OP's general point. I look forward to your support when the TP morons push their agenda, which they have already made clear, and anyone here tries to tell us that we 'have to compromise'. This is good news from you. We will need all the support we can get.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)the Tea freaks demand them, or how much these not happening cuts get predicted on DU.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)No, the OP doesn't "stand"
It's false equivalency bullshit. The point made about the funding levels ignore that the higher Senate level is a budget passed by Senate Democrats.
This fiasco was all Republican.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023760563
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)There is no equivalency in the OP, false or otherwise.
Are we still at sequestration funding levels after this passes?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Once again you don't seem to know what words mean"
I think you're the one who needs a dictionary. Seriously.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)What you're attempting to do is cherry pick reality.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Because the answer is yes.
And they will extract even more from the 99%.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)easier. Just learn to go with it.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)Saves a lot of wear and tear once you stop banging your head against the impermeable bubble of "do no wrong".
D23MIURG23
(2,850 posts)The GOP shuts down the government in order to demand an end to Obamacare and additional cuts beyond sequestration. They threatened a default on our national debt, and they wouldn't even allow a vote on a continuing resolution without these things. The senate and Obama got them to drop all of their fucking demands and (if reports are correct) they are going to pass one. They also got tarred and feathered for using this tactic in the process.
All of this happened and you think we lost because we didn't also get rid of sequestration? Should they have magically forced the house to pass immigration reform and gun control legislation while they were at it?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And I did not say we won...and that is the problem...this is all presented as a game where you have winners and losers, and we are supposed to be cheerleaders for our "team".
Sometimes I think we have been so conditioned in high school to this we just cannot understand any other way.
But if you want to know who the winners are they are those of the status quo, because nothing will change for the better for those who are not at the top...we will pay and they will take, as it has been for many years now...and they will keep us busy at the pep rallies cheering on our team and with the illusion of winning some prize that don't give a shit about.
In every game you have an opponent, and that opponent is always the evil one...in fact the more evil the better....just as good cop is your friend and bad cop out to get you...that situation makes you easily manipulated and that is what they do.
Sorry if this sounds too negative for you...but the first step in changing things is recognizing the problem no matter how unpleasant it is.
D23MIURG23
(2,850 posts)If Obama and the Democrats wanted sequestration, then why didn't they pass it in 2009 when they controlled both houses and the presidency?
We got into our current situation because the democrats lost a bunch of fights a lot like this most recent one. The fact that the dems got politically outmaneuvered allowed the GOP *who have a distinctly different agenda than the dems* to extract some of their demands. I'm not going to pretend that the GOP and the Dems don't serve some of the same interests, but there are significant tangible advantages to having the Dems setting policy. Dems are often willing to write fact-based policies and often have an interest in seeing the general welfare of the country attended to, whereas the GOP is full of a mix of insane reality deniers and full blown fascist kleptocrats.
I say we "won" because the GOP tried to make things worse again, just like they did this past spring, only this time instead of getting sequestration cuts, the Dems allowed them nothing but humiliation. That isn't an "illusion of winning some prize", its real livelihoods that were spared another act of economic vandalism. If things really go well then maybe the GOP will lose the house next year, and the Dems will do away with sequestration and pass a reasonable budget in 2015, just as they did in 2009. Personally I would consider that significant progress.
So no, I'm not convinced that this is some kind of conspiracy circus where all of the players work for the Kochs. I think the fact that we are not going over the debt ceiling, and not giving the republicans more spending cuts are real benefits we won.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And my other post to you addresses this.
We scored a point on the board, and that is progress but not a win.
And of Obama wanted to close Gitmo then why did he not do it?...if he wanted healthcare for all why not just lower the age for Medicare to 25 or something?...because bad cop would raise hell and everyone is afraid of bad cop GOP...cause that is what he is there for....that is his job.
We will have won, when we take the money out of politics and elect people who will not sell us out....and we have miles to go before we sleep.
D23MIURG23
(2,850 posts)People playing "good cop bad cop" are conspiring to a particular end. I do not think that the democrats and republicans have an ongoing deal to simulate conflict in order to achieve certain ends, but this is what you are implying by using that metaphor.
I agree that we have plenty of work to do in terms of improving the quality of our representation. I think we have "won" in this case in the sense of winning a battle, but I don't mean to claim that we have won the war.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And never happens in real life...people don't get together in smoke filled rooms and conspire to work against us...that is just for the movies.
No more than a mobster calls in his hit man and tells him to whack someone...things like that are never said in real life.
No the Dems are not conspiring with the GOP to do anything, but the people behind the scene pull the strings never the less...and they never say it out loud...that kind of bribery is for fools, and they are not fools.
But if it makes you feel better to have a sense of winning then feel that way, but don't take your eyes off the prize...which is a long way down the road...
D23MIURG23
(2,850 posts)How much did the Democrats have to get out of this failed GOP attempt to defund Obamacare and extract more spending cuts, in order for us to feel we made progress?
Should they have ended sequestration as well, against the wishes of the GOP controlled house?
Should they have goaded enough republicans into quitting to shift the balance of power?
Should they have won stimulus spending?
Or are you just totally closed off to the idea that any progress can come out of Washington, because obviously all of these people are the same anyway?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And I have no intention of avoiding any question.
But if Bad cop says he is going to take you in the cell and beat you with a rubber hose, and the good cop says he will stop him if you just confess to the crime do you call that a win if the good cop prevails?...but you have made progress...you kept yourself from getting the shit kicked out of you...but you did not win.
But that is how the game of triangulation is played...threaten you with something terrible so you will be happy with just something bad.
I will be happy when the shutdown and threat of default is over...and I am glad they stood up to the bullies, but I will not delude myself by calling it a win....we are miles away from any win...at least for most of the country that is...who will continue to pay the price so that Wall Street can continue making the big bucks off of the backs of main street.
And we are miles away from any reform in congress to make it represent the majority of Americans interist....miles away from any win.
I don't know any other way to answer that question.
D23MIURG23
(2,850 posts)I'm not going to tell you how you should define winning, but making progress is the kind of winning I was talking about.
As for the rest, I think you should decide whether you are actually conflating the democrats and republicans or not. If you aren't actually accusing the dems of working with the GOP in order to fuck us, then I don't see how your cop metaphor applies. Furthermore, I don't think it maps onto the specifics of the situation well. The democrats didn't extract anything comparable to a confession from us in return for keeping the republicans from brutalizing us with a default.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)The effers play games with shadows in the cave and others think they have accomplished something by watching.
SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)indepat
(20,899 posts)being governed from the center-right or even further to the right notwithstanding all the data suggesting a further accumulation of wealth among a precious few, continued burgeoning income disparity, falling wages and standard of living, the 40 million or more needing food stamps alleviate food insecurity, a ludicrous minimum wage not even one-half of that of Australia's, continued high rates of unemployment, the prospects of cuts in social security and Medicare benefits, a continued egregiously bloated MIC budget with the likes of the F-35, and a drop in quality-of-life rankings factors to the bottom or near the bottom among all industrialized nations.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)We are not supposed to notice those things...
indepat
(20,899 posts)capital gains and leaving der Mittens with little more total Federal tax liability, as a percent of his income, than is paid as a percent of total income on the earned income of the poorest among us. Or that as much as 85% of social security is still taxed at the taxpayer's highest marginal rate, thanks to WJC, joyously continued by junior, and, oops, also continued by bho, but surely his people don't realize that little gem. The abject regressiveness of the Federal income tax code has been only minutely reduced and is not the effective corporate income tax rate in the 7% range? Yet all together, let's cut social security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits before any of the aforementioned egregiously inequitable income tax issues are addressed. PS woo me with science: your grasp of all issues addressed in your OP is amazing to me.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)If Chris Christie were to change parties today, he would become Dog to some here. They dont care about ideologies or policies, they only care about the golden "D". You have to give them some credit. It does make their life easier. I did have to laugh when Liebershit ran as an Independent. The loyalist didnt know whether to shit or go stupid. Lamont was the golden "D" but the Democratic machine supported their corporatist buddy Liebershit.
And just remember, 20 lashes is soooo much better than 50.
indepat
(20,899 posts)Tennessean had supported Al Gore, Jr., but frankly did not realize in 2000 what a complete s*it-head Liebershit were and what a dumbfu*k holistically bad choice Liebershit had been.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)All decision by all Democrats are good all the time. And all that dare question a Democrat shall be here to called a hater or other similar name.
Of course we can rationalize that we are better off than if the world were to implode, but we got a crappy deal. Ask the people at the foodbanks or foodlines.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Republicans didn't and held the economy hostage.
Therefore there is a difference.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)nothing, but we got the Ryan budget. Now isnt that something. IMO the OP is pointing out that the middle class got screwed. You just want to make sure that the Democrats are blameless. It would be so very easy if we could tell the good guys from the bad guys by the letter after their names. But the battle isnt between the D's and R's, it's between the corporatists and the 99%.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)But it's even worse than that because it repeals Obamacare and guts Medicare and Medicaid:
The middle class didn't get screwed by the Democrats because the Democrats passed their budget (the ACA takes up Medicare and Medicaid which is why it's "cut" under the Democratic plan).
So, no, we didn't get the Ryan budget. If anything most programs were exempted from the sequester (with the exception of WIC and LIHEAP; sadly). And defense / the MIC is losing out the most.
Boehner did not, in fact, get 98% of what he wanted. He got shit all in the sequester.
former9thward
(32,016 posts)It affects non-defense agencies almost at the same level as defense.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)been distracted by the 'blue team v red team' game that has been played.
On the good side is the fact that not all of the people have been distracted.
The test will come any day now when they get down to the 'compromises' that were made. Or rather to the real reasons for all of this.
Watch for the arguments for the Chained CPI as a warning sing. It has already begun.
Great OP, one of the best on DU for a long time.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And then ... nothing.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)nomination, hopefully we will ensure that there will be NO Chained CPI or any cuts to SS. We ARE powerful, Liberal voices, when we are organized. And I am happy that Liberal Orgs across the country have been ready for this ever since the President signaled his willingness to compromise on those issues.
They will try, they ARE trying. But let's hope that the Dem Party now understands that there can be no compromise with these bullies and refuses to even discuss it, a position that would make them extremely popular with a vast majority of the American people, who are opposed to the Govt messing with THEIR SS fund.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Obama must have something on him.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)At least that's what his page says ...
Sen. Sanders was appointed to a conference committee to try to reconcile separate budget documents passed by the House and Senate this year. I look forward to the negotiations that will take place, Sanders said on MSNBC. The time is long overdue that we stood up for the working families of this country, for the children and for the elderly and not move toward deficit reduction on the backs of the most vulnerable people," Sanders said in a floor speech on WCAX-TV.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/newswatch/101713
So clearly he must be part of the secret plan to kill social security ... right?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)that Committee also. We KNOW he supports, eg, the Chained CPI and any other deceptively named attempt to cut SS benefits.
We know Bernie Sanders does not. Who do you think should win that argument? Are you FOR or AGAINST the Chained CPI? It's a simple question. I'm with Bernie Sanders on this.
I assume you misspoke when you implied that Bernie Sanders was against SS?
I wish you would speak directly as your comments are difficult to understand.
So once again, a simple question, are you for or against the Chained CPI?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And a committee has been created to carry out the scam. And Bernie is on it.
I suppose that Bernie could be against such cuts ... but if Obama and the GOP plan to use that committee to carry out their scam, than Bernie must be in on it.
Unless, maybe the President isn't part of this scam.
And as I've said before, I am against these cuts you speak of. They aren't happening. And I'm against them. But they aren't happening.
As for being difficult to understand ... see ... that's how I feel about these conspiracy theories about Obama's secret plan to kill social security. I mean, way back in 2009, if he really wanted to kill Social Security, the easy way to do it would have been to ask for a stimulus that was way bigger and have that not pass.
See, then the market keeps dropping, the economy is truly a mess, and THAT's when you claim that SS cuts are necessary to save the country. THAT would have made sense.
But that's not what has happened. The economy has improved (complain all you want, but things are much better than in early 2009). The market is UP, UE is back down to 7.3%, and the deficit is dropping.
If this is THE TIME for the President to spring this scam on us, his timing isn't very good. Which is why I have trouble understanding all of you folks who are SURE that the SS cuts are definitely going to happen THIS TIME.
The time to do it, was back then, not now. Unless their plan is far more creative. And getting Bernie to go along with it would be very creative.
See?
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #2)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Skittles
(153,164 posts)it is seriously f***ed up what it took for our Dems to learn a lesson
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)We are supposed to cast aspersions on all in Washington equally. We are supposed to seize this moment to realize Dems are bad and Obama is a failure. The whole system is rotten and we should trust no one.
No solutions in the post, just mindless negativism and always killing of any pride for our Democratic leaders including Obama.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)wrote. Can you spell S T R A W M A N ? It's interesting that you would be happy that we got a budget that Ryan proposed. You may be happy but believe me those on foodstamps are suffering.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Some around here are SO FUCKING obvious.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)If your world is a dichotomy of either or...with us or against us.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)perpetually disgruntled.
Every positive must be countered.
It's a common pattern.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Are perpetually fucked over...
Every fucking must not be such a bad thing...they will give you the reach around afterwords and you should be happy with that.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)and therefore, it's your attack that becomes obvious.
The OP clearly blames "corporatists in both parties".
Granted, that may include Obama. For me, it does, and has ever since he chose Timothy Geithner to do some bailing out.
That of course doesn't mean I can't appreciate the good things Obama has done - stepping back on Syria and standing firm this time are not minor things.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Yup. It's all Obama's fault the shit heads in Congress couldn't/wouldn't pass spending that would remove sequestration.
Your reasoning and conclusions are faulty. Try again.
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)you made that to be "it's ALL Obama's fault", which is directly contradicted by the OP title.
It looks like you're trying to paint the OP as from "an Obama hater". I wouldn't know and I don't care. I prefer discussing on the merits, instead of character assasination.
Is criticism of Obama allowed, in your view?
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)I don't think Democrats are allowed to celebrate very positive news without a bunch of shit being flung by others as you'll notice from the dozen posts telling us we're not supposed to celebrate or even feel joy.
It is all sad all the time on KLJY FML radio
BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)to the extortion. Yet, a sequester level CR isn't exactly reason to bring out the champagne. I can think both things at the same time, and I'm happy there's people on DU lucid enough to pick up on that. I don't know why you have to call it shitflinging. You disagree with the OP, OK.
You and I probably have a very different view of party politics - I believe it's part of the problem. You don't, I guess.
I can respect that. Who knows, maybe the Democratic party can be taken back from the corporate interests. The way I see it, the way money is allowed in US politics, the corporate interests are heavily overrepresented in both parties (but ofc more with the repubs). Do you disagree?
Response to Pretzel_Warrior (Reply #29)
rhett o rick This message was self-deleted by its author.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The defense is *always* to try to make it about being mean to Obama or disloyal to Democrats. We are not supposed to notice that every single deal moves us rightward, or to remember how the actions of both parties led us here.
We are to focus on cheering the team, and not to notice that every single outcome serves corporate interests. And we are not to focus on the billions and billions of dollars pouring into Washington, that explains clearly why they keep doing what they do.
We are to fixate on personal and team loyalties instead of noticing and seriously addressing the grave systemic problem of corporate money that now drives policy in both parties.
The corporatists in both parties get away with what they do precisely because they keep us circling the wagons around our team and refusing to acknowledge the obvious.
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)leftstreet
(36,108 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)A huge chunk of social welfare projects were saved by the Democrats under the sequester. Boehner did not in fact get 98% of what he wanted.
BluegrassStateBlues
(881 posts)Do the admins just keep these people around for our amusement or do they fly under the radar just enough not to get the boot?
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)for analysis and critical thinking.
Helps to balance out the Third Way corporatists.
I don't necessarily agree with everything in the OP, but I personally find it refreshing to read some genuine progressive opinions on DU every once in awhile.
Cheerleading has it's place, especially around election time, but there are times it takes serious skepticism and insight to cut through all the fluff and glory.
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)have some pity, PW. !
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)care about the issues that are of the most importance to the American people.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Response to woo me with science (Original post)
BluegrassStateBlues This message was self-deleted by its author.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)before declaring hidden evil corporatists are out to get us all.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Good cop/Bad cop.
Both are using the the other for cover while serving the same master.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)This WAS a "Defensive WIN". The Democrats held the line, and forced the Republicans to PUNT.
NOW, the Party NEEDS to move the ball and Score some Points with a strong OFFENSE!
NOW, it is time to score some points for the WIN with a STRONG, Unified OFFENSE.
The Dems would be foolish to just walk away from this opportunity.
There are a number of different Points Scoring Offensive Opportunities available,
but I would like to see The Party take on the Republican Governors and Republican State Congresses who turned down the Medicaid Expansion.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023863594
msongs
(67,412 posts)label republicans (not tea baggers) as obstructionist and put out some new plans to make things better. marginal victories over procedure are not sufficient. dems must give voters something worth voting FOR, not just something worth voting against.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Once again ably demonstrated in too many replies to your post.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Or the OP, which is pure false equivalency BS.
Chuck Todd couldn't have done any better.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)BluegrassStateBlues
(881 posts)leftstreet
(36,108 posts)RiffRandell
(5,909 posts)It seems like they folded like a deck of cards.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)Now on to to accepting the TPP.
munster69
(107 posts)again.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Sequestration was a huge mistake. That whole search for a grand bargain, with a commission composed of deficit hawks, supported by the supposedly unacceptable threat of sequestration, was a huge mistake, and precisely the opposite of what the economy actually needed.
We are still living with the sequestration that was apparently never supposed to happen. There will a budget battle coming soon, more search for grand bargains? We'll see.
I do congratulate the president for standing his ground on this extortion of the nation over the debt limit. If our money is to be the world's reserve currency, we can't keep going through this, investors will not trust our bonds. So kudos to him for that.
I would have considered it a true victory if the agreement had included language that abolished the debt ceiling. Basically we stood firm and held our ground.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)a job that depends on a functioning economy and zero dollars in the bank, and who would be kind-of happy if we avoided a possible collapse of the bond market that would easily have rippled through the entire global financial system and put me out of work, again, like in 2008, is nothing more than a craven "corporatist" or else a dupe who was "scammed". Thanks, but no thanks.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Howy many times in following DU have you seen the press, even RW press like the Wall Street Journal, say that the Republicans crashed and burned?
How many times that the Republicans have dropped so precipitously in such a short period of time?
How many times that there is open warfare inside the Republican party to this great extent?
Answer: Never before in the existence of DU and a long time before that too.
But, the doom-and-gloomers are already kicking the United Democratic Party for losing the next fight and every one there after.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Sure it's fun to watch the Republican Party collapse under its own weight and revel in the schadenfreude, but at the end of the day this country needs real solutions to real problems. Austerity and the TPP do not fit the bill.
The underlying assumption is that the Democrats are poised to spring into action with solid liberal policies if only the Republicans can be neutralized. This is an objectively invalid assumption: nothing in the recent history of either the Democratic Party's behavior or its rhetoric suggests that liberal policies are the goal.
Call it doom-and-gloom if you want. I call it drawing a line in the sand: this much backsliding from the Party of FDR - AND NO MORE.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)the roll back doesn't happen. The same policies march forward.
This is why it's not enough to defeat Republicans - we have to move Democrats to our position.
adirondacker
(2,921 posts)"number of homeless New Yorkers in shelters has risen by more than 60 percent over the past decade"
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)It's a win for only one reason. Those silly bastards didn't destroy the global economy. It's a sad win, given what we won, but recognize the small blessings when they come.
As for the budget itself, that's a lost cause for now. Honestly, until people in this country stop pretending that taxes and bond sales are somehow linked to federal spending, we're going to go through this bullshit. Sure, the floodgates should opened from Washington and the country should be swimming in money, but too many people have the wrong idea of where we get dollars.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Sensible woodchucks unite!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)without using the Lee/Cruz logic of "just be more stubborn and the other side will give us everything we want."
The reason why us "woodchucks" are so harsh sometimes towards Ted Cruz types on the left is that we're never going to let them do to us what the Cruz/Lee/Yoho types have done to the Republicans.
What's funny is that the language that Lee/Cruz use towards Establishment Republicans is almost identical to what the OP and his crowd use towards Establishment Democrats (e.g. both parties are the same, the only reason we don't have everything we want is that Establishment Democrats are cowardly and surrender) etc etc.
The OP and the Teapublicans have the exact same hatred of any kind of negotiation, compromise, and basic engagement with the process of governance. They don't want to govern, they want to complain about those who do govern.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)I've already said that within the context of the shutdown/debt limit this was a win. Now, we need to take the next step and drag the discussion back to the left rathert than being satisfied with a Paul Ryan budget.
There are no Ted Cruz Democrats, what a stupid and ignorant statement. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Every single deal, every single orchestrated crisis, every single shock doctrine scam moves us further into corporate slavery. We are being played by both corporate parties, over and over again.
Apparently you didn't read the OP. They're decrying what the Democrats did here as the work of corporate thieves becaues the deal kept the sequester levels of spending, plus the usual loons chiming in the comments who see this deal as a pre-arranged bit of theater between the two parties as part of their grand conspiracy to destroy what's good about America.
And if you think there are no purists on the left who simply refuse to acknowledge that we need to negotiate with Republicans on budgetary issues . . .
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)have identified. For me, they are the Third Way elements that have infiltrated the Party supporting the same policies Cruz does. I'd like to hear your view, since you brought it up, of who they are??
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)explaining where all these seemingly random attacks on the Left actually originated. Not that it should be any surprise, but seeing them on Dem forums over the past several years raised a lot of questions. The OP in question clearly uncovers their origin.
Your answer is a non-answer. So I ask again as I am a very detail oriented person and like to fully understand things 'who are these Cruz types on the 'left' you refer to? Hard to imagine anyone on the left supporting Cruz's position on the Chained CPI eg. So I'm curious to know who you have in mind.
RT is an excellent News Source, btw. Thanks for mentioning it. It won a very prestigious and well deserved award recently after only two years of existence for its news coverage. Not popular with the Right though, as anyone can understand. It does have that often claimed but rarely found in our own Corporate Media, 'liberal bias', which I'm sure you as a Dem would appreciate. One of the most watched news sources even here now which is not surprising.
And who believes everything they see or hear on TV or the Internet? That is a strange thing to say. I don't know a single person, especially Progressive Dems who are generally far more discerning and questioning than the Far Right, who doesn't question everything they see or hear anywhere. You seem to know a lot of strange people, or are you trying to be funny? I did laugh so I guess it was the latter?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Fourteenth Amendment and stopped the government from shutting down, but two of his "economic advisers" told him not to, I have to wonder how much money those advisers are making on "shorting" some stocks, and bidding up the prices on commodities.
The Corporatists have won over this country. And they keep winning until we rid ourselves of all thsoe who are elected but the top Two Percent of our elected officials who play fair and who play FOR THE DAMN MIDDLE AND LOWER CLASSES.
Period.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)progressoid
(49,991 posts)Health care
$20 million cut from the Maternal, Infant, and Early Childhood Home Visiting Programs
$10 million cut from the World Trade Center Health Program Fund
$168 million cut from Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
$75 million cut from the Aging and Disability Services Programs
Housing
$199 million cut from public housing
$96 million cut from Homeless Assistance Grants
$17 million cut from Housing Opportunities for Persons with AIDS
$19 million cut from Housing for the Elderly
$175 million cut from Low Income Home Energy Assistance
Disaster and Emergency
$928 million cut from FEMAs disaster relief money
$6 million cut from Emergency Food and Shelter
$70 million cut from the Agricultural Disaster Relief Fund at USDA
$61 million cut from the Hazardous Substance Superfund at EPA
$125 million cut from the Wildland Fire Management
$53 million cut from Salaries and Expenses at the Food Safety and Inspection Service
Obamacare
$13 million cut from the Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan Program (Co-ops)
$57 million cut from the Health Care Fraud and Abuse Control
$51 million cut from the Prevention and Public Health Fund
$27 million cut from the State Grants and Demonstrations
$44 million cut from the Affordable Insurance Exchange Grants program
Education
$633 million cut from the Department of Educations Special Education programs
$184 million cut from Rehabilitation Services and Disability Research
$71 million cut from administration at the Office of Federal Student Aid
$116 million cut from Higher Education
$86 million cut from Student Financial Assistance
Immigration
$512 million cut from Customs and Border Protection
$17 million cut from Automation Modernization, Customs and Border Protection
$20 million cut from Border Security Fencing, Infrastructure, and Technology
Security
$79 million cut from Embassy Security, Construction, and Maintenance
$604 million cut from National Nuclear Security Administration
$232 million cut from the Federal Aviation Administration
$394 million cut from Defense Environmental Cleanup
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Gman
(24,780 posts)And that's what this is. Never happy.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)I mean, if you're not willing to accept that this deal means you're a sucker, back out of this thread.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)lips curled in scorn
840high
(17,196 posts)D23MIURG23
(2,850 posts)But I'm not seeing how we could have gotten a better outcome than the one we are likely to get. As far as I can see, the house republicans just tried to blackmail the senate and the president, and they basically got nothing out of it except severe humiliation and disunity. They damaged our economy in the process of course, but if this isn't the best outcome we could have gotten, what is the better one you were hoping for? And what exactly were Reid and Obama supposed to do to bring this hypothetical "win" about?
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)We definitely do need to remember how drastically our expectations have been lowered....
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But then again, the Davey Downers on this site ALWAYS seem to take whatever wins we can get, big or small, and turn it into something negative if it doesn't fit their exact specifications 100%(as a former "emoprog" myself at one point, I should know).
It's pretty much expected, but then again, still frustrating, because all it ends up doing is demotivating people.....
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)It's not working
.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)the only thing that's changing is the methods and means by which they "get it done".
Now it's just wouldbe tyranny by a Pee Party minority that's being used to put restraints on what is "politically possible" and to explain the Neville Chamberlin-like behavior on the part of dems. It's no longer just a good cop/bad cop situation, but rather a good cop/very, very bad cop one. As one who thought from the beginning that the whole point of the Pee Party formation was to drag the already off center ideological dividing line in DC farther to the right, I'm unsurprised by their tactics, but nonetheless alarmed by the success they've enjoyed so far.
WHat I don't get, is if the dems are so assured that the brown demographic tsunami is inevitably gonna drown the rightwingnut rats, and the country will come to love the first hostage Obamacare as they currently do SS, Medicare/Medicaid, why it is they aren't in more of the bully role. Being the adults in the room does nothing about the millions that will remain uninsured despite Obamacare, the jobs/stagnant wages/wealth inequality problems, or the need for more action on the biggest and most important issue of this or any other time, AGW. Like JC with the moneychangers, they need to adjust their conduct in a way that's appropriate for the problem to be solved, which are many.
The only win outta this mess is whatever negative impact it will have on the 2014 results in the house for repubs. Should they lose it, then the "politically possible" will once again be restrained by the tyranny of the minority in the senate, assuming that 60 vote requirement thing remains intact -- another thing nothing can be done about, or should I say has been done about, despite the high costs to us little people they allegedly represent.
Repugs no longer believe in democracy as this CR battle has shown, and far too many dems in DC are either oblivious to that or impotent in the face of the danger it poses to our republic and we little people in it. That makes them part of the problem whether they share the goal of rule by corporatism/fascism or not.
good post
upi402
(16,854 posts)I've said it all along. We'll see how it plays out.
Democracy here is a charade that can dupe all demographics.
I'm afraid the solution will end up coming from the streets.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I'd say the best case scenaro is more of the same until at least the next election.
I don't know that it is as much a question of them all being duped, just satisfied with what the dems currently are as opposed to what they once were before the rise of the DLC.
Simon Rosenberg, a long time Democratic campaign operative and strategist, said recently, "there is a strong argument to be made that the DLC has been the most influential think tank in American politics over the past generation... the DLC helped set in motion a period of party modernization that has helped the Democratic Party overcome the potent and ultimately ruinous rise of the New Right."[26]
that's the difference that gives rise to most of the conflicts around here, and the point I read being made in the TP -- the choice between slow and fast acting poison/"shit sandwiches" the uninterrupted rightward shift in DC we have represents, even in times like this when the voting public heads left.
I'm not so sure about the "street solution" thing, but it would be a long story...lol
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Social Security, Medicaid, federal pensions and veteran's benefits are exempt.
Medicare gets "cut" but those cuts are alleviated by the ACA (the Democrats used a clever accounting trick to get this to happen) and it is going to still grow by 6% under the Budget Control Act.
Yes, your argument is akin to Boehner's "I got 99% of what I wanted."
The reality is that military defense spending is going to drop by billions of dollars over the ensuing years.
The worst hit, as in a social level, are those on WIC, and LIHEAP. Otherwise the Democrats successfully exempted SNAP and TANF.
The biggest hit to progressives ideals at a monetary level is that the sequester absolutely guts research funding (almost 10%).
It's actually a damn depressing sentiment that the reason the GDP isn't going to fare so well under the sequester is because the US economy is so intrinsically linked to the MIC. :/
UTUSN
(70,700 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)is there any laziness more harmful than intellectual?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)If we call this victory then we are fucked.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)jsr
(7,712 posts)Progressive dog
(6,904 posts)but not for those who think that both parties are run by the same corporate stooges.
Myrina
(12,296 posts)... to force feed the rest of his austerity bullshit to the rest of us.
AND POTUS saying in his speech this morning that Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid are the biggest long term expenses the country has to deal with.
Average working folk of America: BOHICA (bend over, here it comes again) ...
ProSense
(116,464 posts)that ends the sequester.
Wonkbook: Five reasons Republicans lost and one reason they won
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023869945
Sanders Named to Budget Conference
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023870099
Phlem
(6,323 posts)-p
FredStembottom
(2,928 posts)This clearly a win for Dems. It's a CR and not a budget.
This whole fake drama stirred up by Tea Party loons has failed so wonderfully that it has changed the bath-water of American opinion in our favor. That was the Step 1 that has been needed for years.
Now that it's here, steps 2, 3 and etc. now have a chance of commencing.
We needed this. We won it in a unified way and today is a little better than yesterday.
Hi ProSense! [crickets]
questionseverything
(9,655 posts)with a system where as soon as a representative gets elected they quickly have to turn to fund raising for the next election,what else could we expect to get but corporate players? after all the corps have all the money
and yet this is the system we have,at least for now
now is the time to flood the house with calls to EXPAND food stamps not cut them..afterall the corp farms are gonna get their money so why shouldn't the people get their food? we already pay for it...FEED AMERICANS FIRST
now is the time to fight for WIC......it is an extremely popular program and to fight against it makes repubs look like monsters,i live in a very red area but no one will admit to wanting to starve infants
here is a simple idea to help with income equality,an idea tea peops would love ,double the personal income exemption,or better yet triple it from 3500 to 10,500......it would decrease taxes for every1 but the guy making a million plus gets a tiny fraction of help while the guy at the bottom gets a huge decrease in his burden...pay for it with a slight raise in the death tax for huge estates
these are just ideas off the top of my head but we need a conversation and list of demands
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Grateful for Hope
(39,320 posts)Here you are to put a downer on what was accomplished.