Why We Did Not Win and the Dangers of Saying We Did

[cui bono]

First of all, we didn't win. All we get is for government to continue as it is supposed to, some normalcy in governance. But what is in the bill being passed is a budget with sequestration. A bill with less spending than Ryan's budget. And the sequestration was meant to be something horrid that no one would want to resort to, something to force a reasonable negotiation, but it didn't work so it was implemented. However, once the DC elite realized it was going to affect their flights they voted to fund air traffic controllers. So really, the consequences were never completely felt and the sequestration remains as if it is how things should be.

The Dems wanted to be able to negotiate away the pain of the sequestration this time around but they never got the chance. The Republicans wouldn't really negotiate, then they backed out of an agreement and went with the Tea Party faction with their demands to stop the ACA. So because of this drama we ended up right where we started as far as the budget is concerned.

However, many, many people have been hurt by this. They have not gotten paychecks, crab is sitting at a closed port, our country's rating with Fitch is being reevaluated which will most likely result in higher interest rates for us... a lot of people will suffer because of this. Federal workers/jobs will most likely be diminished by this. They keep taking the hit with no pay raises, furloughs etc... people are going to stop wanting those jobs. Then as the work force dwindles, the programs suffer and the Republicans can say the government isn't working and fight to privatize, which is what they really want.

And we only get a temporary extension, so we might just have to do this all over again. This is no way to govern. It is not a win.

Secondly, by calling it a win we are continuing this absurd politics as team sport idea. This is terrible for the nation. We should not back anyone just because of what team they are on, we should back them because of their ideas and policies.

And when we prticipate in the team sport mentality we are buying into the media's portrayal of events, a protrayal that is designed to raise profits for them by enabling them to make more money in advertising dollars. It's in their interest to have two teams, two sides, so that they can "report" the play by play action and have increased viewership from people tuning in to see what the "score" is and if they missed any good action. That is why the media puts forth this false equivalency. For money.

What I fear will happen if we keep saying we won and if we gloat about it and rub the Republicans faces in this is that they will become that much more determined to "win" the next time around and we are just going to go through this again after the new year. Because when you set something up as a win or lose situation, the loser always wants to come back stronger and win the next game.

And this is not a game.

And we did not win.

[calimary]

1. We did not win because the enemy has survived and WILL fight again.

They're NOT accepting defeat, they don't think they were wrong, they don't think theirs is a worthless cause. The only way we could win is if we ground them all into powder so they could NOT make a comeback. But they have plenty of support back home and they will be exhorted by the nitwits who vote for them, and all of hate radio and Pox Noise, to "keep up the good fight."

They won't give up and they won't go away and they won't see the light. GUARANTEED. We're going to have to face them again and again and again and again and I just do not see an end to it, unfortunately.

So this is correct. We did not win. If any of these petulant adult-size three-year-olds started a single sentence with some version of - "we apologize," or "you guys were right after all..." or "well, looks like we WERE wrong," then that would be a win. But they're never gonna do that. They will NEVER see the light. They don't think their ideas are wrong. They don't think their "holy quest" is wrong. And as long as they cling to that mentality, we will never be rid of them. And we haven't won til we are rid of them. Or that we've starved THEIR movement so severely that they've shrunk down to the point where we can drown THEIR movement in the bathtub.

[cui bono]

7. They will definitely want to fight again, but with the mentality prevalent right now

in their party, I think it's important we don't fan the fire.

Also, it's much harder to change people's minds when you are flaunting a "win" in their face. If we just talk in terms of policies and what works and what doesn't, and explain that we all still lose, that this was not a game or a war to be won or lost, but it's about something much more complex than that, then maybe we can show them the light.

But if you keep talking in terms of team sports then people go tribal and are less likely to listen and reason, they will just don their team jersey and take the field.

[Laelth]

68. +1. n/t

-Laelth

[n2doc]

2. And the Sequester still stands

The Senate CR is basically Paul Ryan's dream budget, it terms of dollars. And we still are stuck without a passed budget, just a CR.

People need to understand this. Because the Repubs are already screaming about "entitlement reform" and Debt reduction. And they will push the lie that Government spending and the deficit have been increasing, all because of those "spend and tax Democrats". They are nothing if not tenacious about their memes.

[cui bono]

15. Yes, exactly. Great point.

Something I should have also mentioned in my post.

If we call this a win, when all we got was the ability to try to govern again and a budget with the sequester, then the R's will just want to take more from there and we hurt the Dem's ability to bring it back to a better budget.

This can't be our starting position on the budget, this was the R's position. We need to get rid of the sequester and get a mor reasonable budget, one that does NOT include any cuts to SS or Medicare, etc...

[n2doc]

22. This graphic is a useful tool against those who claim we got "Complete Victory"

[cui bono]

30. Love that graphic. n/t

[CrispyQ]

60. This should be posted in it's own post after today's breaking news.

So spoiled brat Ryan got better than what he asked for the first time & damned close to what he asked for the second time. This is a sickening graphic.

[hfojvt]

88. it's an old graphic

so it may not reflect the current deal http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3812595

[Snake Plissken]

64. The numbers are accurate , but if the numbers were allocated according to the Ryan budget

we'd all be living in a van by the river hunting for rats to eat. and the billionaires would be $986 billion richer.

[Iliyah]

94. As long as you have a GOP majority in the house

the sequester will stand and they will obviously try and go further with the cuts and dismantlement. Thats why its important to win back the house and keep the senate. The sequester can be overturned and brought back to the more progressive plan.

So right now we did win and as McCain said, they lost the "battle" not the war. Progressives have to kept vigilant and not let what happened in 2010 happen again.

[jsr]

26. Precisely.

[Martin Eden]

128. **Because the Repubs are already screaming about "entitlement reform" and Debt reduction**

The end game of this latest iteration of the John Birchers is entitlement elimination.

They know they can't win elections by promising to eliminate Social Security & Medicare and they know these popular programs will continue as long as there are funds to keep them going, so the only way to advance their agenda (shrinking government to a size that can be drowned in a bathtub) is by manufacturing a "debt crisis."

Rightwing Republicans are NOT fiscally conservative. They don't hate government debt; they need government debt. Huge budget deficits are Absolutely. Essential. to accomplishing their long term goals.

Did Republicans really think tax cuts and more tax cuts while spending lavishliy on the militray and wars of choice would somehow reduce our national debt ... did budget deficits skyrocket under Reagan & GW Bush because they were simply mistaken about the consequences of their policies?

No. The internal enemies of our government and our democracy are not as stupid as we like to make them out to be.

They are NOT fiscal conservatives. They are reactionaries and corporate stooges with an agenda, and must be exposed as such.

[sharp_stick]

3. So you think that

if we shove this into the faces of the pukes they're going to get really mad next time and do it again?

I'll respectfully have to disagree, every time they get something they want they do it again. They are a lot less like Statesmen and a lot more like a naughty Jack Russell. Sometimes you have to rub a nose in it before the lesson is going to take effect.

They took this to the mat simply because the last time it happened Obama and the Democrats gave them something for in essence doing nothing. They figured "why not it worked last time" and it would probably happen again.

The hardcore teabaggers are a growing minority among the House pukes but still a minority that the majority is afraid of, not because of their politics but because they pose a threat to their jobs and the party.

The pukes took it a lot farther than I thought they would because they figured they would get something. They didn't believe Obama when he told them that he wasn't going to negotiate. They got hammered by the press and by the public.

When this comes up again and the baggers go on about shitcanning Obamacare my guess is they'll think twice before starting it up again. Right now they want the electorate to start forgetting how partisan and idiotic they are.

[rock]

4. We DID win

Any time we can get this Congress to do it's duty then Democracy wins. That's us, the Democrats pulling the Fascists (aka the repiggies) along. And they clearly lost. Don't go making it complicated,

[MADem]

6. It was a victory for rule of law, certainly, and the legislative process. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

78. +1 Agree.

[cui bono]

25. But that should be business as usual.

We averted a crisis, which is not winning anything.

And had we not had this crisis perhaps we could have actually gotten something productive done. Hopefully the Tea Party will be curtailed because of this, but that's not a "win" so much as just politics. Again, not good to think of this as team sports, it changes the dynamic into something that doesn't allow for nuance and complexities.

[rock]

79. Well to be a little more precise

We lost several billion dollars (as I understand it) because of the shutdown and the repiggies lost 20 points in the polls. I call that winning.

[JaneyVee]

5. Politics is most definitely a team sport.

[dreamnightwind]

84. Not really

And I agree with the OP, it's a bad model to use. The media corporations love it, it sucks for the rest of us.

There is no team sport I know of where an individual can voluntarily switch sides, where they can support one team on one issue and the other team on a different issue, where you can win by making a good case for the things your party believes in and people from the other side join your side.

Some of the right-wing is beyond hope, we will never reach them. Many of them, however, are low information voters who have been duped into working against their best interests. Some of them can be won over, rather than crushed and defeated.

To what degree? I don't know, but it's the right approach, we're governing a country where winning doesn't mean defeating the other side, it means governing in the interests of the people.

So, there are ways to govern in which members of both parties benefit. I don't mean implementing part of what the Republican party wants, I mean putting policies in place that help the people, all of them. That's winning. Clearly different from team sports.

Unfortunately what we've been seeing is governance where the financial sponsors of both parties benefit, and we're all paying the price for that. Who wins? The owners, while the players all lose. So again, clearly not team sports.

[Southside]

8. There is a crazy fringe group that shut down the government

They want to start a revolution. I think we are in a battle with the Tea Party. They only want "constitutional expenditures" such as the military. They don't want most of the 2.2 million government employees to have jobs. They don't want social safety nets. They are so extreme that Boehner and McConnell look like moderates compared to them.

Fear of hitting the debt ceiling stopped the Tea Party this time. Now the Tea Party will try to expand and take over the GOP. If they take leadership of the House, this will be nothing like Newt Gingrich and his contract with America. It will be the Death of America as we know it. I believe so anyway, even if 30% or so of republicans identify with the Tea Party. When I see confederate flags and shut downs with no hope of success, I know we are in a fight with lunatics and we must win this fight. So for today I am Happy the Tea Party needs to regroup, but I know they will be back in the primaries.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

10. Ain't gonna happen. Tea Party will have less influence after this fiasco

[Southside]

17. They can't shut us down, but they can take out RHINOs

They are gunning for the 20 to 25 moderate republicans. Try to pick them off in every primary.

I hope you are right, but if I'm GOP rep Dent in Pennsylvania, I would watch my back.

[Amonester]

125. Shove their neo-GOP-of-Lincoln's flag in their 'moderate' faces:

Shove it in 'moderate Republican' faces over 'n over 'n over again 'til 2014 (and beyond).

That's what they've been taken over with. That's what their GOP-Of-Lincoln have courted for more $$$$$$$$$$$.

Only now, they reap what they have sown.

Lincoln must be spinning in his grave.

Shove it in their faces!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

9. Ok. If you say so.

Now I has a sad.



Your concern is duly noted.

[JoePhilly]

14. + 1 ... for having "a sad"

My 14 daughter learned that from Stephanie Miller and now she and all her friends say it.

[cui bono]

16. "Your concern is duly noted."

Don't talk to me as if I'm some troll.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

31. I'm not. You are concerned we are overly celebratory

In the wake of total capitulation by GOP and I have noted that.

[cui bono]

81. You know as well as I do what that phrase means.

Let's not play more games here.

[Ed Suspicious]

91. You're right. That 'noted concern' is such passive agressive bullshit.

[JoePhilly]

11. See ... THIS is why we can't have nice things!!!

No matter what good thing happens ... we can't enjoy it, not even for a couple minutes ... because ... well ... everything sucks and we're all gonna die anyway!!!!

[cui bono]

21. What nice things do we have from this?

Okay, I'll start. We saw that Obama can hold strong when he wants to.

[lakercub]

61. We also saw

Much of the public get extremely angry with the Tea Party and drop their approval ratings to record lows. It will be far easier to keep a foot on their collective neck going into the 2014 elections now than I ever thought it would be before they screwed themselves. This is huge. The Tea Party also managed to completely foul up the Republican caucus. This can also help us a great deal down the road. The Democratic Party has to keep applying pressure but the 2014 elections look much better than they did three months ago and that is, at least temporarily, a nice win.

[leftynyc]

23. I laugh at posts like this one

As if anyone who posts here doesn't understand the ramifications of kicking the can down the road. The reality is we stood to lose this battle if Pres Obama and Harry Reid did not stand shoulder to shoulder and not cave on negotiations. There is a very vocal minority here who are perpetually unsatisfied, no matter what the story is. They're people who are unable to feel joy - I feel sorry for them and wont let them ruin my day - which I hope will only improve with a Cory Booker win.

[DinahMoeHum]

53. Don't forget the Virginia governorship. . .

. . .even though McAuliffe is no prize, the GOP nominee is toxic.

[leftynyc]

112. I'll worry about Terry tomorrow

I just got home from the city and found that Booker has indeed won his race!!! More to celebrate!!!

[treestar]

66. +1

There's always somebody to say it.

[flpoljunkie]

90. Hear, hear, leftynyc!

The White House and the Dems are not gloating and the Republicans will think twice before they shut down the government and threaten the full faith and credit of this country. It is a victory for the president and the Democratic party.

[1StrongBlackMan]

110. Nope …

I feel sorry for them and wont let them ruin my day - which I hope will only improve with a Cory Booker win.

Booker is a corporatist sell-out! (even though he will vote consistent with the Democratic caucus)

[leftynyc]

113. I gave up the looking for perfection

in my late 20s (I'm 52). Compared to Lonnegan, Booker is a prince and is stellar on social issues.

[1StrongBlackMan]

114. I guess ...

I should have used the sarcasm thingy?

There are no perfect politicians ... but there are politicians that can keep the Democratic majority in the Senate (in this case) and politicians that can create a Democratic majority in the House.

GOTV 2014

[PETRUS]

116. When one wants a meal -

It is still better to lose fingers rather than a whole hand. What, you expected to eat?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

27. I guess I shouldn't have suggested everyone read Nietzsche during the shut down.

Reminds me of Jerry Seinfeld when George demanded he not be funny during dinner.

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. How predictable ....

[cui bono]

19. Have you got anything to actually add to the discussion?

Ever read anything about disaster capitalism?

You really think where we are is good? Please tell me why.

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. because a serious man is in the White House...

because we are NOT going to be suffering their trumped up Impeachment charges...THAT is what they were really after and they were denied.

But I cannot say that I am surprised by certain folks reaction..."every party has a pooper" as my grandmother would to say!

[cui bono]

46. Let me rephrase that. Do you have anything substantial to say to add to the discussion?

So avoiding a disease is a "win"?

What about all the other consequences? What about the budget having sequestration in it? If you want to discuss this, then do so. Little quips like that mean nothing to the big picture.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. and your "little quip" means exactly what?

about 2 cents that's what. Do not flatter yourself.

[cui bono]

82. So you don't want to have a discussion. That's what I thought.

But if you change your mind, I asked you several questions you have yet to answer.

Please proceed.

[VanillaRhapsody]

98. and you did?

I must have missed that entirely...

[cui bono]

136. Ah... so you didn't read the OP.

Figures.

So then I agree with you. You missed it. Entirely.

So... still no points to make in response to the OP?

[VanillaRhapsody]

137. Yeah way to have such high expectations....you totally miss the milestones.

way to go Debbie Downer. Way to keep the morale high....no time to feel some self-esteem or anything....we must move the goal post a little further right away...wouldn't want anyone to have any time to appreciate that the hard work thus far has paid off at all. Yeah you have really good motivational skills there...gotta hand it to ya!

[cui bono]

138. You really don't get "discussion" do you?

Care to try again? Basically, how it works is you read the OP, understand the point they are making, then if you don't agree, you offer your own viewpoint to counter it. Simply being dismissive, rude and personal doesn't lend itself to having a good discussion. Got it?

Please proceed.

[VanillaRhapsody]

139. Okay...you don't get it...don't do subtle comedy do you?

right over YOUR head.....nevermind!

[cui bono]

140. Yeah, that's the ticket. Pure comedy gold.

So, you concede that you never intended in good faith to actually have a discussion then.

[Doctor_J]

121. did you just say that Obama not getting impeached is a win????

How low can the bar be placed? I thought I read that this was a rout??

[JoePhilly]

20. OP needs this picture ...

[cui bono]

33. Yes, that would have helped explain it to you.

Read this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3864588

[JoePhilly]

45. I remember when the DOW was at 7500 and THAT was going to be what

caused Obama and the Dems to kill entitlement programs. And at least every summer since Obama took office, that prediction returned. Here it comes. Doom.

Now I guess this deal to reopen the government, and raise the debt ceiling, is really just a trick so that NEXT TIME. Just as it was all of the other times.

The craziest element of the GOP just got its ass handed to it. Being happy about that doesn't prevent us from doing anything in the future as we continue to fight those whack jobs.

But I understand that some simply lack the ability to smile from time to time.

We didn't get everything, right now, so clearly, we lost.

[cui bono]

47. Calling this a win moves the goalposts further to the right.

Is that what you wanted to have happen?

[JoePhilly]

51. Sure it does.

[cui bono]

83. You don't believe that?

Go look at the numbers of the budget we just "won".

There's a graph posted upthread. Check it out and explain to me how the goalposts weren't moved right.

[munster69]

72. Exactly!

and well stated. Oh, for the Kool aid drinkers I will give them "it could have been worse" but To me a clean bill means a CLEAN bill not the one that is about to be passed.

[PeteSelman]

13. The very point of all this is to accept the right wing result as normal.

You see? The crazy people didn't win, we won. And our prize is moving further to the right because sequestration levels of spending are now the normal. Yay!

This has been going on for thirty plus years. Isn't this the best?

[Southside]

28. Maybe the economy will pick up

Bush put us into a hole and we are digging out. I would like a balanced budget too, but I don't want furloughs either. We know this isn't normal. I think we know that.

Even the Security agencies had one day a week furloughs this year. That is not normal. Sequestration is bad for everyone.

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. It will certainly pick up now that we are not going to become deadbeat and aren't forced to pay for

an Impeachment.

[Southside]

50. Impeachment is coming, they hate Obama.

They get enough lunatic reps in the house and a new leader, it will start. They can all me paranoid, but the Tea Party is a new breed of lunacy. They make calls, they protest, they meet and they grow based on ideology, not corporate interests, not based on millions from the Koch brothers. It is hate for Obama and a return to some America of their childhood. Impeachment is coming.


Maybe not just hate for Obama, but Rush keeps saying communist. They want to stop the communist revolution among other things and Obama is their focus point.

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. they can try...but it wont work.

[Southside]

58. Nope, will never work

[Demit]

18. Yes to all you said. Especially the politics as team sport thing.

Not to belabor the metaphor, but it makes us take our eye off the ball. We should be focusing on the policies that are happening, not the politics. I've already read reports of Democrats like Chuck Schumer talking about how entitlement reforms will definitely be a part of this budget conference they're going to have.

And that's a big juicy prize the Teabaggers want: the chipping away of our social safety net. All these hurrahs are going to sound very hollow then, when both parties start "compromising" on that.

[Uncle Joe]

37. Entitlement reforms means different things to different people, taking the cap off earnings

from Social Security would be one entitlement reform, an over due one in my opinion.

The Chained CPI would be something entirely different.

The Teabaggers have lost influence from this debacle and I doubt the Republicans will pull the same stupid stunt three months from now as it being even closer to the 2014 elections.

If they do, the Republican Party will be politically hammered even more severely come next November.

[Demit]

59. omg, what Democrat in Congress can you point me to who is pushing for raising the SS cap?

Bernie Sanders has, I know. Do you think Bernie Sanders will be a voice in the coming negotiations? Do you honestly think that raising the cap will even be on the table?

And January is still pretty far away from campaigning season. I have every faith that the Republicans will pull some kind of stunt three months from now. They're getting sympathetic press already.

Retaining the status quo for three months is not a major victory, in my book. This is just a breather from what is to come.

[Uncle Joe]

69. Here's one and if I kept searching I'm sure there are others that would support it, particulary now.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/11/16/1208701/democratic-senator-introduces-bill-to-lift-social-securitys-tax-cap-extend-its-solvency-for-decades/

Most of the proposed solutions to the shortfall involve cutting back benefits and raising the minimum retirement age. Both are deeply problematic; at its current level of benefits Social Security kept over 20 million people out of poverty in 2011, many Americans in demanding manual labor jobs already take early retirement and thus reduced benefits as it is, and lower-income Americans have not particularly benefited from the average rise in lifespans .

[This week, however, Sen. Mark Begich (D-AK) put forward a reform package that goes in the opposite direction, while still financially securing the program’s trust fund for roughly the next seven decades. The Washington Post’s Dylan Matthews laid out the details:

The Begich bill would lift the current payroll tax cap, which exempts wages in excess of a certain amount ($110,100 this year) from the tax. In turn, it would give high earners, who would pay more, additional benefits upon retirement, just as benefits increase as wages do for workers below the cap. […]

It also increases benefits across-the-board. While Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin adopt a stingier “chained CPI” measure for inflation, Begich adopts “CPI-E,” or a measure that specifically captures inflation in goods that seniors buy.

While January may still be a ways from campaign season it's closer than now and the Republicans clearly politically bled from this.

Of course the primaires are closer than the general election, should the Tea Hadists win out in the Republican Primaries, the Democratic Hand will be strengthened from that dynamic as well, the nation as a whole is more aware of how dangerous their extremism is.

Should the "moderate" Republicans win out in the Republican Primaries, that in itself would be a win for the nation, and they would be more prone to rational negotiations.

Regardless I believe the shutdown and threat to not raise the debt ceiling has given the Democratic Party an advantage come next November, too many people have been stung by this stupidity, even Republicans.

[Demit]

96. Thanks

You got me curious, so I read your link & looked further. There have been other bills introduced, but this article is more along the lines of what I remember:

http://www.remappingdebate.org/article/democrats-hide-when-asked-about-ending-high-income-loophole-assure-social-security’s-future?page=0,0

I mean, I hope you're right, of course. But the mainstream press has to give the idea serious coverage for it to get any traction, and so far it's only been progressive blogs who have. Most coverage is of Simpson-Bowles, chained CPI, raising retirement age, encouraging people to resent seniors for taking away from younger people. I don't have the sense that anything is shifting the momentum away from that, but I'd sure love to be proved wrong

[1StrongBlackMan]

111. Here’s another Democrat …

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States&h=3356&w=2687&sz=1247&tbnid=Qliw-0jYTXT2DM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=102&zoom=1&usg=__s-gx6VnXpTvrFT8FX6ZtakYHmVY=&docid=iXsfDD53rroHuM&sa=X&ei=ChdfUvPdHIXY2AW9woGABQ&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAw

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/44/lift-the-payroll-tax-cap-on-earnings-above-25000/

Though he’s not in Congress.

[warrprayer]

24. Then why am I so happy?

HAWWWW!!!

[cui bono]

42. Because ignorance is bliss?

[warrprayer]

63. as one who was/is active

in the Occupy movement, let me tell you to take a walk

[woo me with science]

29. We've been scammed. Again. Let's repeat this part,

because you are spot on:

But what is in the bill being passed is a budget with sequestration. A bill with less spending than Ryan's budget.

And let's repeat a post by leveymg that also explains what is really going on here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3839411

67. It's because this lunacy is all a quite rational way to propel the Center-Right Austerity agenda.

That's precisely why I don't believe this BS about 40 Teahadis being responsible for the "crisis."

A partial shutdown suits the deficit hawks in both parties just fine, since it's been adjusted so it doesn't actually impact payrolls in the military and Intelligence agencies. This is simply austerity and cuts to social programs without anyone having to actually vote for it, and that's making the Center-Right smile.

Of course, they won't allow actual default of the debt - the "threat" of that just another psychological device to make this seem like a real crisis. It's not - it's simply austerity by default.

Every single deal, every single orchestrated crisis, every single shock doctrine scam moves us further into corporate slavery. We are being played by both corporate parties, over and over again.

[ProSense]

36. .

[cui bono]

38. Exactly. It's sad that so many on here are simply playing the game

with rules written by TPTB.

Disaster Capitalism lives on.

Wow. Upon seeing my post loaded I see a post right above mine with someone rolling with laughter at this. Shows you just how well TPTB are at duping people. Sad.

[Maedhros]

74. There certainly is a discussion to be had over exactly WHAT will be the fallout

from all these shutdown/debt ceiling theatrics.

Unfortunately we won't have one, because the predominant sentiment among rank-and-file Democrats is that it is enough to count coup on their Republican adversaries while government policy continues its rightward drift.

The shutdown/debt ceiling fight is a distraction so that things like the TPP can slide on through while Democrats are busy cheering their "victory."

[JEB]

65. So we get super duper austerity instead of super duper pooper austerity. Wow, what a win.

Maybe we could work "still better than the alternative" into pledge of allegiance.

[PeteSelman]

71. Indeed.

Be happy about the right wing result because it's not the ultra right wing result. And the center moves again.

[blue14u]

101. I agree with you woo!

Thank you for making this clear. The center right, and far right, won as usual..

Not everyone can appreciate your ability to read between the lines/lies...

I always enjoy your take on your OP's, and posts on others OP's... I have been here a long time,

just signed up recently, and don't post much.. I do follow you though.

[ProSense]

35. Somebody won:

Democrats pick up a Republican-held seat in the Florida legislature
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023864612

[Uncle Joe]

43. I believe the political dynamic is in favor of this occurring more often thanks to the Republican

shutdown and threat to not raise the debt ceiling potentially causing the nation to go in to default.

[DevonRex]

39. LOL! This whole thing was a political win for us. All we had to do was watch

them light the fuse.

&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[cui bono]

40. You are living in a bubble.

And that's a dangerous place to be.

Read woo me with science's post above and follow the link to levymg's post. And then read The Shock Doctrine. Then hopefully you'll see what's going on here.

[ProSense]

44. You know what has been missing since

"Read woo me with science's post above and follow the link to levymg's post. And then read The Shock Doctrine. Then hopefully you'll see what's going on here. "

...this debacle began:

Where are the "Wake the Fuck Up" posts?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023766244

They only seem to show up when Democrats are being attacked.

[Bobbie Jo]

104. ^^^This^^^

"They only seem to show up when Democrats are being attacked."

Some have been conspicuously absent as of late, only to show up *here.*

Go figure.

[DevonRex]

102. I live in this dimension. I can enjoy a moment

without going through your "oh woe is me" bullshit.

That's all people are doing - enjoying the moment. And maybe hoping their political suicide continues. Hoping we take full advantage of it.

You guys want to sit there and bellyache and tilt at windmills, well, go right ahead. But people will call you on it just like you tried to make everybody here unhappy again. Nobody likes that, you know. Not at parties, not at weddings, not on holidays, not anytime people are happy.

That was a bit of free advice, just in case nobody ever told you that and you hadn't figured it out from people's reactions to you. It'll save you some grief in life. Maybe get you a few more invitations in the future once people notice your more positive attitude.

You're welcome.

[cui bono]

123. Well I posted more than a cartoon clip. I'm looking at the big picture.

Your attempts at glimpsing into my personal life are a big fail though. If you want to hit me up with facts or opinions that discuss the subject at hand, feel free.

Nothing you said so far refutes what is happening in the real world that I commented on. And I never said you're not supposed to be happy about the vote. I'm extremely relieved. But I can feel that and still not lose sight of the bigger picture of what is going on in this country, and when "winning" the extension of a budget worse than Paul Ryan's for a mere 3 months is supposed to be some great victory, well then we are in a very sad state indeed.

[ProSense]

41. We aren't allowed to win. Democrats never win. Only Republicans can win

You're allowed to say Obama is going to destroy the Democratic Party, but never allowed to say Republicans lost. That's dangerous.

[JoePhilly]

49. +1

[Warren DeMontague]

48. We win about as much as we can until we put Nancy Pelosi back in the speaker chair.

So let's get to work!

[Lex]

52. We **WIN** because they got nothing they wanted.

And "win" doesn't just mean it's a "game."

Look it up.

[munster69]

73. Not completely true

They got a rule change to Obamacare, some say its small but we shell see. Tomorrow boner will be saying he got 98% of what he wanted.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. It was a display of Politics as Usual. Not even very entertaining.

They need new script writers in D.C.

[DrewFlorida]

57. Great post, well said!

[BelgianMadCow]

62. I concur. But here's the problem with your analysis:

If you look at a couple weeks ago (and only that), and consider the status today, it's a win.

You however, are taking the long view. Which, of course is the right one. Take a step back, let the dust settle, and behold: the Ryan budget has passed, in the shape of the CR. Olé.

Meanwhile, who cares about NSA and TPP? Right.

[Laelth]

76. +1. n/t

-Laelth

[Maedhros]

89. Democrats need to stop being on the defensive.

When we can put the wood to the Republicans and push through a progressive agenda, then we can crow about "winning."

Right now we're barely treading water.

[munster69]

67. Senator Bernie Sanders just said it was a terrible deal

but they have to vote for it to save the economy. No, we didn't win, we will give them at least one obamacare change and we simply kicked the can down the road. Not even drinking spiked kool aid will not make me believe this was a good deal for dems.

[DCBob]

70. We won in the sense the RW extortionist tactics failed.

We should all be pleased with that.

[JDPriestly]

75. How do we vote out the tea-baggers in the House?

How about sending buses of volunteers to the weak Tea-Bagger districts to get out the democratic voters? What can we do to end this anti-American reign of terror?

[zeemike]

77. K&R for the reality check we all need.

And this is not a game, although some want it to be one...where we score points and go rah rah for the team....as if we are in high school.
Thank you Cui Bono.

[noiretextatique]

80. paul ryan's budget

is now considered a "win." thanks for the information. i know some people find it difficult to deal with reality when it comes to Obama and democrats, but you are simply stating a truth that some refuse to face.

[Orrex]

85. I'm glad that you posted this

For a while this afternoon I was afraid that there might be a reason to believe that the government, economy and nation at large might not be doomed to utter destruction after all, but your dose of optimism convinces me that we're still nose-diving into the shitter as surely as we were 24 hours ago.


Thank you.


Thank you.

[msanthrope]

107. You are one my favorite posters, ever. nt

[Orrex]

117. .

[cui bono]

109. Heh. I like your sarcasm. :)

But really, what you said is true as to nose-diving.

TPP is coming... Chained CPI... we're still under sequester and the R's want it to be worse than it already is. The Dem's have to try to pull it back from where it is, how easy do you think that will be?

The good thing is if we work hard perhaps we can win back the House. I hope we do. And then I hope the Dems start a real push back. We need the pendulum to swing back to the left again. Finally. Unfortunately, I don't think very many of them want it to do that.

[BornLooser]

86. I understand your' logic here, cui, but I respectfully disagree...

There is nothing new here, we have no single party, or "team" to rally behind. Our politics here are adversarial by the very nature of the framers intent. It is theater, it is drama, but a game?, sure can be, and at times it needs to be treated as such. So many diverging positions, so little time. Democrats have evolved from a despicable rabble, and the republicans decided long ago to take up that banner, constantly shoving it in our faces while we played "nice". To me, two facts are crystal clear...no one can show me a republican who has, or has had, an idea, or a policy, that is a "win" for Jack and Jill American, since Ike. The "people" that have ramrodded this?, these "losers"?, they will NOT play nice nice, they attack, they keep attacking and they will never stop. Please do not mistake this digital bubble for America at large. WE know how to act, and will act accordingly. America knows what to do, always has. Want to take a shit in our backyard?, want to piss on our collective back, laugh, then tell us it's raining?, be prepared to have noses rubbed in it. Finally, do you really think they need motivation from a bit of "how do you like us now"? It IS a competition, at times uncivil, at times sublime.

[mkell33]

87. Excellent point

They have extracted the reduced levels from last year's sequester deal. Paul Ryan is smiling and wanting more. The upcoming budget battle will be nasty. A pre-Christmas delight. The repub gang as Scrooge (how long will that image take to develop). The good guys as forces of good for most of us. Unfortunately, the only real win is if we all support the good guys to use the next several stalemates to get the house back with independent voters. The gerrymandered districts make it very hard to do but I think that, after this wonderful implosion we have seen, there may be a way to do it. We need to give money to the brain trust that can fight off the far right. I enjoy the wonderful emotional, funny, and inspirational posts on DO, but the challenge is clear and tough and we should not spend time thinking about a gov reboot as a victory. I hope to the heavens that we can remove these nuts from office.

[Oilwellian]

92. K&R

Do you think we'll still be cheering when TPP and Chained CPI are on the table in the next few weeks? I think not.

[cui bono]

108. That will be when denial will set in.

10...

9...

8...

[andym]

93. The only real victory is that public opinion of the GOP is in the sewer

which may actually give a chance to win back the House and to repudiate their anti-government arguments.

[lastlib]

95. We simply postponed the bloodshed......

I think you hit the nail on the head. The GOP--and most importantly, the Tea Party--won't be going away after this round, nor will their demands for ransom for the nation they hold hostage. And the salient fact to remember here is that they STILL. hold. the hostage.

And they'll be back......and this is not a game, nor a boxing match. It is a blood-feud for the soul and the future of our country.

[Orsino]

97. We won a battle on an important principle.

Yes, we have been losing the war for decades. What's happened today, more importantly, proves that we can win more battles.

But can our Democratic leaders muster any such spine for challenges greater than Civics 101?

[DonCoquixote]

99. I do see where you come from

At best, this should give us a reason to make sure we get the Tea Party OUT OF OFFICE where they CANNOT WRECK THE NATION.

However, while the GOP does make a lot of false victories, they do realize one thing: you need to celebrate the times you do not lose, because it reminds you that yes, you can win.We need whatever spirit we can, to get ready for the next fight.

And with all due respect, if you think that the GOP is not going to try to "win", if you think Kock money is not set to flow like the Niagra, and that the Churches will not act as coaches in a losing Halftime, well, i think you know better. Part of the reason these guys win is because we have tried to be too intellecutal, too genteel, so much so that the GOP honestly thinks that we will stay polite, even as they smash our teeth in. Sorry, the days of bringing knives to gunfights are over, and if we go back and act like we are not prepared to swing cowbars and brassknuckles, they will think "ah, back to normal."

[PFunk]

100. Well I dont call this a victory. I call it a wake up call.

And a big one at that.

Before this happened many folks just didn't know how bat shit crazy these teabaggers are. Especially Obama, many dems (and quite a few moderate repugs). And (IMO) more importantly how the MSM was covering there butts.

NOW, thanks to this mess we do and can prepare likewise for what's next (as the GOP starts it's turning in on itself will give us time to do).

Lets (please) hope that time is spent well by our side.

[stupidicus]

103. I completely agree

I guess it depends on what you think has been "won". By not giving up more than they did to the extortionists?

As I see it, giving them the little baubble they got is likely to encourage as opposed to discouraging them from simply continuing to rinse and repeat with this kinda conduct, while leaving the dems who bail them out in the house responsible for whatever concessions they extract. According to rightwingnuts, the Bush tax cuts are now the BHO/dem tax cuts, as are all the impact they have on our debt and deficits. http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22294868/fiscal-cliff-bill-extends-most-bush-tax-cuts The "politically possible" is and has been for some time now, a euphemism for giving us dogs a bone, or a "win" in this case.

This tyranny of the Pee Party minority tactic is gonna be energetically exploited at every available opportunity by them, leaving the inexorable rightward drift on socioeconomic policy issues/legislation alive and well. I don't think any ego considerations need be made in terms of their being declared the losers, because it appears as if this conduct is hardwired into them now that they know such methods and means are the only way they can politically accomplish their goals.

The only thing we "won" is a respite from their madness until the next game in an undefined/unknown number for the series is started.

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2013/10/white-house-there-are-no-winners-here-175216.html

Even BHO knows there aren't any "winners" in all of this, but there has been many losers, as you rightly noted. http://wonkwire.rollcall.com/2013/10/16/chart-day-26/


The only real "win" I see has nothing to do with the specifics of the CR situation other than as an unintended result for rightwingners -- the potential for losses in 2014 their madness has enhanced the possibilities for. But that assumes that the dems will then try to blaze a trail leftward. For some reason I'm not very confident that they'll do so, given the way that "politically possible" thingy keeps getting in the way...

[Cal Carpenter]

105. Kick

[Rex]

106. Aw come on man, not even just ONE win? A little victory?

Of course this is not a game. But you win some policy wars and you lose some. We did win one and did not default - I did not think the Teabaggers would cave in!

Of course they owe US 24 billion and counting dollars now...

think we can get it out of their salary?

[TheKentuckian]

118. When a big win is just not defaulting, then we are in a bad spot. We got a stop on D

and the numbers in what loosely acts as a budget mean we probably more held them to a field goal rather than a punt, pending we pray repudiation in the next election.

The fireworks, rounds of ale, and the dancing ewoks literally for not pulling a full capitulation is silly. Obviously good behavior should be reinforced and positively supported but pretending away the reality of the spending, revenues, and the crushing need doesn't have much substance and that isn't moving the goalposts but acknowledges that the same one is getting further away.

What is the argument with the numbers? I don't see one. Don't think it seriously exists.

[Puzzledtraveller]

119. [phone]

I make the same comment and get shit for it, if this is what we are celebrating over then we are in trouble.

[TheKentuckian]

127. I don't get it, it is like what happens in reality doesn't even matter. Just what the score

in an eternal game.

Hurrah! We didn't willfully default! That is just accepting the absurdity and learning to love it.

[joshcryer]

115. It is irresponsible to say we didn't win.

Because the Democrats held firm and they need to be recognized for that and they need to keep doing it, not capitulate. What you're basically arguing for is that by saying we won we're going to get into the whole bipartisan gamemanship thing. That's what some are arguing for. But it's not going to happen if we give the Democrats the credit they deserve for fighting.

The Republicans are going to come back and hold the country hostage again. There is no question about it.

[renie408]

120. HEAD'S UP!! Obligatory Democratic Breast Beating Alert!!

Note: Full on sack cloth and ashes routine to follow soon!

[Doctor_J]

122. just like the Bush tax cut extension was a win

Many at du are more interested in a symbolic win for the president than a real step forward for the country

[slipslidingaway]

124. I am SO past the team win mentality! n/t

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

126. So fucking sick and tired of Democrats and our fucking inferiority complex!!!!!

[great white snark]

129. I think "sick of the left's inferiority complex" would be more accurate LS71.

I know of no Democrat who suffers from that complex.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

135. There you go! Thanks! :)

[Le Taz Hot]

130. Thank you, cui bono.

This desperately needed to be said. K & R

[Progressive dog]

131. We Won!!!!!

What I fear will happen if we keep saying we won and if we gloat about it and rub the Republicans faces in this is that they will become that much more determined to "win" the next time around and we are just going to go through this again after the new year.

Did the Democrats hurt Ted and Mike's self esteem? Would they actually to to shut the government down 'cause we hurt their feelings?
Poor babies, we should just pretend that they aren't a group of sniveling, ignorant tea-ocrats.

There will be more battles but we won this one.

[progressoid]

132. Yup.

By the way, have we actually seen the bill's details?

[lupinella]

133. K&R n/t

[bvar22]

134. DURec.

The Democratic Party's unified DEFENSE held the Republicans to NO GAIN,
but we haven't GAINED anything either.

However, after the last 6 years of capitulations every time the Republicans whined about something, I guess I should be happy that we got out of this mess without giving anything else away.
I can understand how that might look like a WIN to some.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023863594