Should it be a crime to deny the Holocaust?

[Gravitycollapse]

I was reading about a former Nazi who died recently and the ultra conservative Society of St. Pius X agreed to give him a church funeral.

One of the former bishops of this society was Richard Williamson. He was convicted last year in Germany of denying the Holocaust.

Anyway, this just kind of seems like thought crime to me. I mean, I understand why someone would loath the man. Anyone who denies the holocaust is without almost any doubt a huge asshole. But I find a hard time believing that they are guilty of a crime.

[elleng]

1. Germany instituted laws after WWII we wouldn't approve,

as did other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

[Behind the Aegis]

2. No.

It shouldn't be a crime to "deny" anything as a theory or a historical event. Holocaust denial or minimization has become quite popular, now more than in the past.

[Deep13]

3. Nope. But such a claim would still be demonstrably wrong.

The only thing inaccurate about historical accounts of the Nazi holocaust is that they typically underestimate the number of murder victims. Excluding combat fatalities, the Nazis murdered at least 6M Jews in the death camps, 6M non-Jewish undesirables, and about 8M civilians of all descriptions in Poland and Russian, you know, just because.

[LittleBlue]

4. No

This is one of those issues that makes me happy to be American. No one should be subject to a prison sentence for believing historical inaccuracies, no matter how ridiculous.

[Jamastiene]

5. Not necessarily, but they sure as hell should be

sent to therapists to deal with their cognitive dissonance problems and other obvious mental health issues. People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Facts are facts. There is something extremely wrong with someone denying facts like those Holocaust deniers do.

[Gravitycollapse]

6. I take issue with pathologizing stupidity in that manner.

Being stupid is not a mental illness. While I do not doubt that many holocaust deniers suffer from some sort of mental illness, the actual denial could be the product of simple stupidity.

[Jamastiene]

9. Refusing to acknowledge the facts of what happened

is willful stupidity. If it was just ignorance, that would be forgivable and they could be taught the facts and learn from it. Most of these people have been taught the facts and refuse to believe. Facts are facts, not opinions. It is willful stupidity, yes.

I tend to look at mental illness differently that most people. Many of the people who are considered mentally ill in our current society are just people who recognize what a fucked up world we live in and are having a hard time coping with the fact that we are supposed to pretend that how fucked up things have gotten in our society is ok or acceptable. It is not ok and I resent that some of us are considered mentally ill simply because we see what a fucked up world it is and can't force ourselves to pretend it is not truly fucked up. That is backasswards from how it should be.

People like those holocaust deniers and other usually right wing types that are obsessed day in and day out with denying the holocaust, going after gay people, racist crap they work themselves up to believe, and other fucked up things they do, usually obsessively to the point that it truly is mentally unhealthy, should be dealt with with some kind of therapy to help them understand that facts are not something they can ignore like that. I mean, they are not living in the real world if they refuse to believe something happened that DID happen. Think about it. If a lot of those people would be forced into some kind of therapy to curb their obsessions, a lot of us who have been deemed mentally ill because we have a hard time with how fucked up this world we live in really is, could would have a much easier time of it. It would help the mental health of society as a whole because things would balance out.

There is nothing wrong with trying to help those people before they hurt themselves and/or others. Look at the situation we have right now with the Tea Party Republicans. Their extremism and their obsession with denying rights to millions of people simply because the cannot accept facts, is causing harm to millions of people in this country, even to the very existence of the country itself. And let's face it, an awful lot of the people on that side of the political spectrum (the extreme right wing) are the exact types of people that fall in line with the Holocaust denial ideology. They are definitely a danger to others. It's not that they deny the Holocaust and go on. Usually, those types obsess over one thing like that. I don't think it is mentally healthy. So, yes, I think they could benefit from therapy of some kind.

[fitman]

20. Not a crime to deny the holocaust

just as it should not be a crime to laugh at them and ridicule their stupidity.

[Hekate]

7. Germany obviously has its own issues, so let them deal with it their way, is what I say.

The US can afford to be more lax, and cover lies like this under our own Constitution's freedom of speech provisions.

[Niceguy1]

8. I think it is a bad idea

To go down the path of prosecuting conspiracy theorists,or people for thought/speech crimes.

[Puzzledtraveller]

29. It's appalling the support something like that gets here.

[cali]

10. No, but I understand why it is in Germany.

[JI7]

11. depends on many things such as history, culture, etc of a nation

[bemildred]

12. If it is used to raise money, yes. Otherwise, no.

As a personal opinion, it's just being an ignorant dumb ass. When it becomes a business plan or a movement, it needs to be stomped on for the fraud it is.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. People have a right to be wrong - when it is a matter of speech or thought.

However wrong headed and offensive that speech or thought may be. Ultimately even wrong and wrong-headed free speech serves the great good - Without Holocaust deniers - there would not be a need to prove the Holocaust did in fact happen. But because there are those who deny - there are those who have done the work and meticulous research and have put together the proof that it did in fact happen - This proof may not be so necessary for those who are still living in a world where there are at least tens or hundreds of thousands of survivors or eye witnesses still alive. But what about in the future when all the survivors and all the eye witnesses are dead and gone? The fact that the meticulous documentation and documented research does exist in part due to the need to refute deniers -
The case and the proof and the meticulously gathered documented evidence will live on long after the last Holocaust survivor or eye witness has passed on.

[PeteSelman]

14. Of course not.

It's like denying the Civil War or that the Ravens are the current Super Bowl champions. You don't have to believe they happened for them to have happened. You just look stupid.

[cali]

15. it's quite a bit more complex than that.

Aside from the fact that you don't have a contingent of people denying the Civil War or that the Ravens are super bowl champions.

I don't support laws against Holocaust denial but I understand why Germany and other European countries have them. Holocaust denial is hate speech and lots of countries have laws against hate speech. Again, I don't support those laws, but I understand why they've been enacted.

[PeteSelman]

17. I realize that the implications of such beliefs are different.

But intellectually, on a base level, they're the same. Dumb.

[cali]

18. but it's not all about stupidity. that's what I'm trying to say

No, all Holocaust deniers are not stupid. It's about hate, bigotry more than any other factor.

It's easy to attribute stupidity to people we hold in contempt but they're not always stupid.

[PeteSelman]

19. Agreed.

Stupidity and bad intentions are not the same thing.

[GreenEyedLefty]

16. Yes, it should be a crime. Holocaust denial is extremely dangerous and should not be tolerated.

It is dangerous because to borrow from George Santayana, not only are people who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it, those who deny the past are all but condemned to make history of their own. Germany and other European countries are wise to not take any chances here.

[fitman]

22. Oh c'mon

there is only a small, minute people who deny the holocaust..don't make it crime..99.99999998888% of people know the holocaust happened.

The few people out here who deny it will never impact or change public opinion.


Don't we have enough stupid ass laws on the books already?

[GreenEyedLefty]

23. It's not our law it's Germany's. Extremism is a real problem

There and in Europe as a whole. Thinking the Holocaust didn't happen is one thing. Verbalizing it, particularly as an influential person is another.

[Motown_Johnny]

21. Here, no.. in Germany, maybe

It is a part of their history. I can understand why that kind of law exists for them.

Our first amendment would not allow such a law to be passed here.

[Nye Bevan]

24. No. Let Holocaust deniers expose their willful ignorance for all to see.

And the concept that the Government banning people from saying something will stop people who want to from believing that thing is ridiculous.

[Throd]

25. I agree. It is a great way to identify crackpots most readily.

[uponit7771]

27. +1

[treestar]

35. True and it makes the government look defensive

Fearing that a belief will take hold and the only way to stop it is to make sure it is never mentioned. That just makes the idea more likely to attract.

[Nye Bevan]

36. Exactly. "Such ideas are so DANGEROUS.... that the government had to BAN them!"

To many people this will only add credulity to the banned ideas.

[BluegrassStateBlues]

26. There's no simple yes or no to this question.

I have less of a problem with it being a crime in Germany than the prospect of it being a crime in the U.S.

[stevenleser]

31. I agree with you and Cali here. There are exceptions to every rule and right.

And the situation in Germany with regards to Nazism and antisemitism and the Holocaust is one time I can see an exception to free speech.

I would not be in favor of it in the US, or England or France, for instance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

[Puzzledtraveller]

28. The irony.

[geek tragedy]

30. In the US, no. In Germany, sure.

Same reason why they banned the Nazi party and any other white supremacist political parties there. Those who engage in Holocaust Denial want to finish Hitler's work, and that's a risk Germany just can't afford to take.

[Nye Bevan]

37. Would you be OK with the US banning the Ku Klux Klan? (nt)

[geek tragedy]

39. Yes. Compare what Germany did with the Nazis ex post 1945 and what the US did with the Confederates

ex post 1865.

Their approach worked, the US approach was an utter failure with consequences visible to this very day.

[Marrah_G]

32. No

Freedom of speech.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. No. What some people fail to understand is, the 1st Amendment is a bigger "fuck you" to Nazism

than any sort of speech ban ever could be.

Edited to add: Obviously that only applies to the US. Germany can do what they want.

[treestar]

34. No.

Any law like that is completely unacceptable. There's no way to define "denying" and many statements could be twisted to mean that.

[Orsino]

38. This is not the kind of nation that could criminalize that sort of speech.

We have yet to confront and defeat the fascists among us.

[LuvNewcastle]

40. I can sympathize with the people who created this law,

but I think that the greater principle of protecting free speech and thought is more important than what their trying to stop.

In a lot of instances, people who espouse that theory are using it as a recruiting tool to organize neo-Nazi groups. Those groups are illegal in some countries, so it makes sense that they would try to stop them from organizing.

Americans have to remember that European countries have different histories from our and they have different problems as well. I would totally be against such a law in America, but it's hard for me to criticize other countries when they're trying to remedy their own problems.

[pitbullgirl1965]

41. No.

At times I wish hate speech in this country was criminalized. Law enforcement both federal and state, give right wingers the benefit of the doubt, while social justice protests and activists are brutalized, harassed and jailed etc.
I would like to see them feel the heavy hand of the law, esp because they are a threat AND HAVE BEEN A THREAT e.g. anti abortion terrorists, white power groups, the KKK.

That said a documentary about the Neo Nazi punk scene both here and in Germany showed the German bands forced to go underground while the American bands were free to play in public.

They envied the freedom the American bands, and yes, I agreed they have the right to play in public. Driving them underground doesn't prevent them from existing, and the old saying let sunshine be the disinfectant at least lets the American public know these people exist.

Besides, do we really want the Roberts court to determine what's hate speech?

[Demo_Chris]

42. No. nt

[Iggo]

43. No.

[OldEurope]

44. In Germany we

consider the denial not a matter of opinion or free speech. As Cali wrote above: it's a hate crime.

The Holocaust was extremely well documented, by the Nazis (who were terrible bureaucrats, too), by the American and other troops who relieved the Concentration Camps, by the Nuremberg trials, by the Wiesental Organisation, many historians, and on and on. Also, there are still some survivors telling their stories to every new generation of students. And you can visit the Memorials in Dachau, Auschwitz or elsewhere. Every once and awhile there are documentaries on TV or in news magazines.

So, who is in doubt if this really happened can educate themself by reading, watching or asking.

As there is so much evidence for the truth, you cannot prove that the Holocaust did not happen - you can only lie about it. If you lie willfully, repeatedly and in public (media, public conventions) you must have a reason for this. Either, you want to show the whole story as part of a "Jewish Conspiracy", or you want to "prove" that the Nuremberg Trials were unjust and Germans never did any bad. So those deniers simply are antisemitic Nazis who want to justify their hate, it's pure propaganda for faschism.

And, they are abusing the victims.

[pitbullgirl1965]

45. Recommendation

http://www.amazon.com/Third-Reich-Rise-Fall-The/product-reviews/B0049TC8CQ

This is the best documentary of Germany during WWII. And I say this as someone who has read and watched everything about Germany from WWI and WWII, since I was 11. (i'm 48)

It's from the pov of ordinary Germans, interspersed with home movie footage, complete with bizarre pictures of stuffed animals hanging (!?) how ordinary citizens had to join the party, (including a chilling letter where a teen threatens to denounce her mother to the Gestapo) the narration and editing are chilling and increasingly menacing as Hitler and the Nazi party gains power and followers.

This review is from: Third Reich: Rise & Fall (DVD)
Interviews with real people and original film of actual events make this video much more powerful than fictional accounts. Makes clear that not all Germans supported Hitler or his policies and many of them paid for their opposition with their lives.

[truebrit71]

46. No. But it's the quickest way to know that you're dealing with an asshole...

...so there is that upside to it...