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(129,018 posts)Touche!
Cha
(297,240 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)cute
Cha
(297,240 posts)Leith
(7,809 posts)He obviously isn't up to the job.
Cha
(297,240 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)By Ian Millhiser
Tuesday morning, the National Reviews Ramesh Ponnuru reported that House Republicans may pass their proposal to end the shutdown, prevent default and exact certain concessions from Democrats, and then skip town. The implicit threat being that President Obama and the Senate could either take what the House Republican caucus is offering, or they can watch the American economy tumble into the chaos of a debt default.
Such a gambit, however, is unlikely to succeed at least if the House GOPs goal is to be far away from Washington when the bottom falls out. The Constitution gives President Obama a way to reconvene Congress, and the House rules enable Leader Nancy Pelosis caucus to bring Republicans back to the Capitol to do their job.
Under Article II of the Constitution, the President of the United States may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them. Thus, even if Speaker John Boehner managed to adjourn the House and hop on a flight to Ohio, President Obama could summon him back to DC.
The Constitutions text places few, if any, textual constraints on this power to convene Congress, and there is at least some precedent suggesting that the president can choose the specific date when Congress should reconvene. When President Franklin Roosevelt ordered the Congress back into session on March 5, 1933, he required the Congress of the United States to convene in extra session at the Capitol in the City of Washington on the Ninth day of March, 1933, at twelve oclock, noon. If House Republicans closed down shop at 11pm on Tuesday, theres nothing in the Constitution suggesting President Obama couldnt order them back to work at 11:01...
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/10/15/2784131/house-republicans-just-skip-town-stick-obama-ransom-note/
From ProSense's thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3855720
My scenario took it one step further:
Nancy's not leaving, she's no quitter. If Boner and the GOP leave, the quorum wiil be all Democratic, if they abdicate their seats and don't return.
If they go AWOL, it will be a sea change. I really hope to hear these words again:
'Greetings, Madame Speaker.'
Sounds crazy, I know, but look at what we're dealing with now.
What a wonderful thing it would be. And love the pic, Cha!
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)But, I have a problem with her "Impeachment is off the table" remark when asked about bush, cheney, and their cronies.
Otherwise, she is excellent.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)War criminals are not tried or convicted by domestic means. I was for impeachment in the Impeach Cheney first crowd. But was also in contact with people who tried to get ICC actions through international petitions to the Hague.
We realized we had a problem going forward. The example most cited was Nuremberg. But conditions on the ground matter.
Germany, the offending nation was occupied by the Allies or in plain terms, foreign troops. They could order where people lived, what they did, take over resources, and did not have to take care of the population as the Weimar Republic did before the Nazis put the nation into default and set the conditions on the ground for the people to accept a dictatorship.
Realizing that state of affairs, whicn none of us have endured, although I have talked to people who did, the conditions on the ground there were apocalyptic.
In the days following the fall of Berlin, war crimes were committed such as widespread rape and plunder by some of the Red Army. They wanted revenge for what the German army did to their countrymen.
I don't know if the Allies did anything like that, but I never read about it. The Russian actions were recorded, but no one thinks much about that, as such things seem to get swept under the rug in all wars.
Consider the condition for the German people to allow this to happen to their leaders. Some may have wanted it, but some would not. But all of them were under the boot of the Allies. Told what to do.
Whose boot would the USA and its people be subjected when this great call to justice could take place here? Would any civil society be left as this happened?
In Chile, Pinochet was not brought to trial in any effective way. There are times of great civil unrest when a leader is killed by countrymen, such as Mussolini was.
We are thinking of such thing in terms of due process and orderly justice, and although Nuremberg was, think where the brute force was that underlaid the ability of the Allies.
War crime trials are not brought about the same nation or the regime that did them; in each case there is civil war, violent upheaval or an army forcing its will on the country at large. To try Bush and Cheney would bring about a civil war and millions would die here for that.
Consider that in a larger context. I'm sure Pelosi did, no matter how she felt. I had to come to see the big picture and why the world is not B&W and why we don't get blood from every one who did wrong, even great wrongs.
I would not defend in any way, Cheney and Bush, et al. After talking to so many people, I had to rethink satisfaction. What is satisfying is a luxury that cannot be afforded by many.
A Chinese proverb that speaks to the desire for revenge, which is the kind of justice wanted, as they killed many:
He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself.
Anyway, that's what I learned, and I don't hold Pelosi at fault for doing her job, when it was the job of the Hague. And we've never seen an impeachment really work through in our lives and when she was made Speaker, she didn't have time for a protracted show trial and leaving the nation's business undone.
For that brief, and it was much briefer than is generally claimed, of Democratic control, Conyers controlled the investigations and got much information that could be used in the future to try those two in the Hague. The period of time that Democrats controlled the HoR is documented here at DU. And what Conyer held hearings on is damning stuff, and is safe within the Congressional Record.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Last I heard, there are number of countries that neither Bush nor Cheney can travel to without risking arrest.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)Although there would be cries of conflict of interest. Pelosi, being Speaker at the time, if she would have successfully impeached bush and cheney, and the charges stuck, both would have had to step down. Which means Pelosi would have become the interim US president.
I can hear the right crying foul. The reason she called for impeachment was because she wanted to become president. You're right, all hell would have broken loose. I can picture all the damage that would have caused. Several scenarios have played in my mind, including President Pelosi instituting martial law in the US because citizens would be on a rampage, among others.
Scary.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)And the GOP put up the best of their batshit posse on display in 2008 and 2012. Obama had to be bipartisan to sound sane to independents.
Only lunatic fringers like the birthers say impeach with every other breath. We see what happened to the GOP with Clinton.
If she'd led a charge to impeach and not take care of the mess Bush was creating, the GOP could have won. The brain washed public would see no difference, McCain and Palin would be running this country right now.
If your scenario had been followed, default would have been like paradise. I am glad to see you realize the costs in reality. Those who haven't lived the real apocalyptical reality that Europe did, and been informed by people there, don't know what they asking for when they think revolt is cool.
There is no way to say which way such things go and we can see the majority of land, money, will and ammunition lies with the rightwingers. With a civil war from martial law, what will be left to argue about?
People would be reduced to something most have never lived in and in that environment, justice is thrown out the window. Some may think they're mistreated now, but they have not seen what a civil war does and I find such talk rather juvenile and am glad you are mature to not indulge it.
She was thinking of the bigger victory, and so most we. Sometimes in life, we are end up with acknowledging some leaders are more mature than their base and wiser for not crying for blood.
Lincoln was such a man, Mandela and Tutu, too. Their people had great grievances, they could have exacted a heavy price on their nation's wrong doers and most wouldn't have faulted them.
That doesn't promote a civil society and the rule of law and the RWers are lusting for it, every day. I consider the different levels of power, strengths and weaknesses of the opposing sides.
When people get on Obama for not going after Bush, etc., they are speaking from the same place as baggers wanting PBO lynched, but think it's different because they are 'right and their cause is just.' Looked at historically, it's not.
I have learned to think long term. I can't afford cheap thrills that will cost more than they are worth. Satisfaction ain't all it's made out to be, what tastes sweet turns into something bitter.
Good talking to you, see you later.
Cha
(297,240 posts)there until then, fresh.
sheshe2
(83,771 posts)We need seventeen seats to take back the house!
Let's turn it from red to blue. Sane from crazy. We need to vote like our lives depend on it because they do!
freshwest
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Nancy Pelosi is the best!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)Thank you!
dmr
(28,347 posts)A big, BIG, BIG bear hug.
marble falls
(57,093 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)so missed, marble falls. It would be Just Desserts if we got her back.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Yeah, the right wing hated her, but she could never really control the blue dogs. We squandered a great opportunity under her watch, not that it was primarily her fault, but we did.
calimary
(81,267 posts)Yeah, had a hard time herding a few cats. But she made people there earn their pay.
But she would NEVER let the baboons run the zoo the way the hapless, nearly-neutered, spineless boner does. Her House of Reps ran smoothly and none of this artificially-created-crisis shit got off the ground. Stuff got done when Nancy was Speaker.
As I have heard numerous times about her - she never brings a bill up unless she knows EXACTLY how many votes and from whom and that they can be counted on. All in all, she manages pretty damn well, and she, too, is in a safe district. Not because of any gerrymandering. It's her district being filled with mostly informed and enlightened voters.
When she replaced denny hastert, one of the first things she did as Speaker was decree that the House members were going to resume working a full week, giving the taxpayers their money's worth. The way hastert had it, members would stroll in for roughly an afternoon's work on Tuesday. They'd work a full day Wednesday, and then they'd start scattering after Thursday morning. AND BE GONE ALL EXTENDED WEEKEND. So that's when you had the junketeers and the high living and the stoking of the faithful back home, and fundraising and travel to pals' districts to raise money for them, and not a whole helluva lot of time put in at their Washington offices, with their Washington staffs and their Washington business. I guess she figured they were supposed to work for the general good of ALL the people of the USA, not just their own little provincial fiefdoms back home. They howled and screamed. Whined and complained - that bitch is expecting us to work a whole work-week! WTF????? And she got a lot done as far as bills passed and legislation enacted. She wasn't just another ongoing monolithic petulant sore-loserman no.
And when she had to pass the Speakership to boner in 2010, did she quit and stomp home with her ego bruised and her tail between her legs? HELL NO. That's for Sore Losermen like denny hastert, who couldn't bear the thought of sticking around as a lowly minority leader after his pals lost the House in 2006. Not man enough, I guess. Nancy stayed and kept up the fight. And didn't abandon ship or her loyal troops.
She has my total appreciation and respect!
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)And better than boehner (although that's a pretty low bar). I just found her to be too cautious and too flexible to the conservatives in the party. The result was that we didn't get a lot done. I'm not saying she didn't do anything, I'd just prefer someone more "aggressively progressive" and more in control of her caucus. Maybe that person doesn't exist.
calimary
(81,267 posts)taking impeachment of george w. bush off the table. NEVER should have been done. Never should even have been said. That was a pretty serious disappointment. I still wish she had.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)First, the Senate would not have convicted - it takes 67 votes to convict, and the Republicans would never have voted for it. Even if there was video of W announcing that he was going to lie the country into a war while he was beating a bag of kittens and having sex with an underage male prostitute, the Senate would not have convicted.
Second, Clinton's impeachment means that it would have been treated as "payback". Thus there would be no serious attention paid to the charges.
The betrayal is not investigating W after he left office. The crimes do not disappear when he left office.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Pelosi was able to get shit done and practice the art of the possible. The same goes for Harry Reid. Neither leader will ever get the credit they deserve when it comes to some progressives.
Cha
(297,240 posts)hell out of her!
Isoldeblue
(1,135 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)The House was not the stumbling block to getting things done. For example, Lieberman, the Senator from Aetna, is the reason there is no Public Option.
tosh
(4,423 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)right mind?
sheshe2
(83,771 posts)Hell yes we miss you!
Now lets get the hell out there and VOTE!!!!!!
great picture, Cha.
Cha
(297,240 posts)petesouza ✔ @petesouza
Pres Obama meets w House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and other members of House Democratic leadership
'1:51 PM - 15 Oct 2013
http://theobamadiary.com/2013/10/15/gop-shutdown-update/#more-141318
sheshe2
(83,771 posts)TheObamaDiary.com @TheObamaDiary
History will look back & sigh at GOP bastards & what they're doing to America, but it will do the same to the media shills who enabled them.
Yep, those are the adults in the room.
Thanks Cha!
Cha
(297,240 posts)much.. my heart wasn't in it, she.. and then I saw that graphic of Nancy and I got some heart back.
Mahalo for the tweet from TOD.. It's so true.. at least I hope the pendulum swings and America gets a Fress Press back!
she
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Fuck Yeah!
Cha
(297,240 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)It just got worse!
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)I prefer how feisty she was in comparison to Reid.
I've only been commending Reid lately for his actions at this time. It is few and far between, so yes, I miss Nancy.
Cha
(297,240 posts)I'm still waiting for that table to be set.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)and it's 5 years later.
Lifelong Dem
(344 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)SpankMe
(2,957 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)Response to Cha (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Brigid
(17,621 posts)But soon. Soon.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Response to Brigid (Reply #37)
Name removed Message auto-removed
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)reaction I had when I first saw it~
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)ffr
(22,670 posts)Ever consider all the things we could have done with the time lost due to these manufactured crisis? 15 days talking about whether the government should or shouldn't make good on obligations it's approved? COME ON!!!
If we ever want Nancy and people as smart and courageous as her to lead America forward, we're all going to have to help in the upcoming election cycle. Fox's tribal media will be fighting to elect more Tea-hadists. It'll be our duty to register as many voters prior to the election and then get as many like-minded progressives to the polls.
Cha
(297,240 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)just put him and his 2 posts on ignore but MIRT came to the Rescue.. thank you!
Cha
(297,240 posts)I thought.. oh well he's entitled to his opinion and I'm entititled to put him on Ignore. And, the next thing know MIRT flew in!
SunSeeker!
Lifelong Protester
(8,421 posts)I want to see her back with the gavel in her hand.
Cha
(297,240 posts)would be, Lifelong Protester!
William769
(55,147 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Can't wait to see her back on top!
Cha
(297,240 posts)rwingnuts in 2010 and 3 years later I would hope more than a few can see how very very wrong they were.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,986 posts)She was one of the most productive Speakers of the House unlike the current cry baby.
Cha
(297,240 posts)to cower to teabag-terrorists!
Are_grits_groceries
(17,111 posts)She has more cojones than all the men in the Republican Party and some in the Democratic
Party.
Yes she has done some things I don't like. However, she will fight with everything she has before she gives one inch. That's the only way to deal with those crazy jackasses. Make them work hard for anything.
AND if faced with blowing up the economy to keep her position, she would allow a vote to be taken.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)...I bet Boehner misses her, too.
Cha
(297,240 posts)NOW!?
indepat
(20,899 posts)table when commission of high crimes is indicated.
onecent
(6,096 posts)instigators.who don't like the color of our president. MORONS..and I wish I could call them WORSE NAMES AND SAY WORSE THINGS...but I like reading DU
Cha
(297,240 posts)DissidentVoice
(813 posts)Nancy has her faults, as do all people, but she's a damn sight better than Boehner ever could be.
ailsagirl
(22,897 posts)ladym55
(2,577 posts)Want her back!!!
Cha
(297,240 posts)that could become a REALITY, ladym!
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Cha
(297,240 posts)Every darn day!
cristianmarie533
(51 posts)Hell yes I miss that woman. I wish she was still the House Speaker, rather than that crybaby moron Boehner.