Edward Snowden - closer to hero or bad actor?

[JackRiddler]

If "hero" is one extreme and "bad actor" is the other, where would you place Edward Snowden after his recent actions to expose top secret U.S. government programs? Bad actor would mean that what he did wasn't a good thing, whatever the intent may have been. (Note that DU automatically gives a "pass" option.)

After voting, be sure to watch this story today on Democracy Now!

Ex-NSA CIA, FBI and Justice Whistleblowers Meet Leaker in Moscow
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/10/14/edward_snowden_is_a_patriot_ex

26 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Closer to hero
	21 (81%)
	Closer to bad actor
	5 (19%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[MADem]

1. No "paid double-agent" option? nt

[Thinkingabout]

2. Closer to being a patsy.

[MADem]

5. Maybe--I just think it's odd that he ran in such a hurry when

his clearance review was on the horizon.

I often wonder if he hadn't had a long-term relationship with the Russians that predated his last flight to Hong Kong.

[Warpy]

8. I think he ran to the two places this country wouldn't be able to extradite,

send in a SEAL team, or use a drone to whack him.

Chances are he'll stay there until most of it blows over and then quietly head for South America.

[MADem]

11. I doubt he will EVER "head to South America."

Quietly or otherwise.

Aside from the fact that those asylum offers have sort of fallen by the wayside, he has a perceived kidnap value.

He's a 21st Century Kim Philby. He should stay away from the vodka.

[Blue_Tires]

16. I've always said "useful idiot"

Because it's clear he didn't put five minutes of planning in before starting that first download...He's lucky to have a sort-of happy ending, considering how much he's had to improvise on the fly...

I still maintain that barring some Earth-shattering revelations, Snowden hasn't really said anything those of us who were paying attention didn't already know...But having said that, he DID do a WONDERFUL thing, especially IF it helps bring the "system" down...Of course, if it is ever revealed that he gave Russia access to the data in exchange for asylum, my opinion of him will drop considerably...

I'm still curious to know how he got that Forrest Gumpian career path of high school dropout to Special Forces dropout to CIA to NSA to Booz Allen Hamilton all before turning 30, and I have a hundred NSA questions that no leak has come close to answering, but those are discussions for another time....

[MADem]

27. I'd like to know if he visited the Russian consulate the

first time he visited Hong Kong as well.

He vacationed in HK before he ran there.

Or if he visited a Russian consulate in India. Or Thailand. Or Japan.

Or even Switzerland.

I think it's entirely possible that he was a Russian agent, turned years ago, and the only reason he ran--in a hurry--is because his security clearance was challenged (and that happens when one lies about one's education and other qualifications--those kinds of things are often re-checked at the ten year mark). He knew the game was over.

See these articles:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10374032/CIA-suspicious-of-Edward-Snowden-years-ago.html

Would have been nice if the CIA had said something, I suppose...?

The CIA reportedly grew suspicious of Edward Snowden while he was working for the spy agency but failed to pass on a warning to the rest of the American government.
The New York Times reported that authorities grew concerned that Mr Snowden was trying to gain unauthorised access to classified intelligence while working undercover for the CIA in Switzerland in 2009.
His superiors reportedly noted their concerns in a report, saying that the 26-year-old's attitude and work habits had changed since he began his deployment.
But the CIA's red flags were reportedly not passed on and Mr Snowden was able to retain his security clearance and get a job as a contractor at the National Security Agency (NSA), where he went on to leak highly-classified US and British intelligence....One of Mr Snowden's superiors reportedly wrote down concerns in an internal derogatory report – known as "a derog" – but it did not meet the threshold for sharing with the rest of the intelligence community.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324906304579039381125706104

WASHINGTON—The most recent background check of former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden was so inadequate that too few people were interviewed and potential concerns weren't pursued, according to a federal review following his leak of some of the nation's most closely guarded secrets.

The background checkers failed to verify Mr. Snowden's account of a past security violation and his work for the Central Intelligence Agency, they didn't thoroughly probe an apparent trip to India that he had failed to report, and they didn't get significant information from anyone who knew him beyond his mother and girlfriend, according to the review.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/11/us/cia-warning-on-snowden-in-09-said-to-slip-through-the-cracks.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — Just as Edward J. Snowden was preparing to leave Geneva and a job as a C.I.A. technician in 2009, his supervisor wrote a derogatory report in his personnel file, noting a distinct change in the young man’s behavior and work habits, as well as a troubling suspicion.

The C.I.A. suspected that Mr. Snowden was trying to break into classified computer files to which he was not authorized to have access, and decided to send him home, according to two senior American officials.

I think his "Information Wants To Be Free" persona was a cover--a handy one, too, even though it butted up against his "leakers should be shot" attitude he professed when he was working in Switzerland.

I'd love to know what really motivated him. Money? Blackmail? Threats? I just don't think it's what he claims.

[Blue_Tires]

29. I don't know...If Snowden was owned by the Russians

Washington would have screamed that from the start...There also wouldn't be any NSA stories because the typical Russian procedure would have been to keep all the data secret and let the USA keep guessing which covers or projects have or haven't been blown...

It would also mean that by extension Glenn Greenwald is controlled by the Russians, or at the bare minimum collaborating with them; and that just wouldn't make sense on any level...

[MADem]

33. Maybe not.

Maybe his Russian handler is running a few others that DC knows about, and they're flipped back over (or were faux-flips in the first place) --and they don't want the Pootster to know that THEY know. Washington doesn't always take credit, even when credit is due...!

Greenwald could just be the "patsy," the useful tool, as it were. He seems to type what he's fed, as it is.

[randome]

3. Confused loner.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[JackRiddler]

20. He's got a lot of good friends for a loner.

[Blue_Tires]

30. Seriously? He couldn't have been bothered to put on a tie?

I'll mail him one if he needs it...

[MADem]

34. That's not even his suit, I don't think.

It's much too large.

It's expensive enough, but ill fitting. I'm guessing it's borrowed.

[JackRiddler]

37. Thank you for...

demonstrating the total irrelevance and triviality of the vast majority of attempts to discredit #Snowden.

[Blue_Tires]

40. Civil disobedience and conscientious objection are one thing

But crimes against fashion? That I cannot forgive...

[msanthrope]

4. I'm waiting for his report on the Greenpeace activists arrested by Russia before voting. nt

[JackRiddler]

9. Classic "commie go back to Russia" response.

I have no doubt that had he been a Russian on the inside of that nation's security state, Edouard Belarov would have revealed illegal and undemocratic activity there -- and the Russian authorities would have tried to get him on a kill list, just like the U.S. authorities would like to do. And blind Russian patriots would make comments asking why he wasn't exposing American abuses - as if he could, or as if this was relevant.

Shameless.

[msanthrope]

14. Dude...how can he go back to Russia??? He's there already. nt

[JackRiddler]

17. Who says stupid sayings make sense?

Last edited Wed Oct 16, 2013, 01:13 PM - Edit history (1)

"Go back to Russia" is what I've been hearing from blind followers (who think they are patriots) for decades. I'm not from Russia.

Your response is in the same vein. The duty of Snowden was to this country, this constitution: he stood up for democracy and law in his own country. He did the right thing from where he was. He wasn't a spy working for Russia and able to expose anything about abuses by the Russian state.

Every country needs more like him. I stand with those who stand up to tyranny, no matter whether it's in Moscow or Washington.

[On the Road]

6. Good Simple Poll

The response is enlightening. Currently 65% 'hero', but DUers may have different posters at different times of day.

[BluegrassStateBlues]

7. Not even remotely close to hero.

All he did was fan the flames of anti-government folks who in turn use it as propaganda to get us to accept a scale back of government across the board.

[RobertEarl]

10. It is dependent upon one's perspective

One perspective is that since Obama is the CiC, then anything that makes Obama or his administration look bad would make Snowden a bad guy. Or even that one who thinks an out of control NSA is good for the country.

The other perspective is that which looks at government holistically and sees that what Snowden did was expose an out of control government agency.

[randome]

12. There are far more perspectives than that. Such as: confused loner.

Randomly poll a thousand DUers and you will probably find 2500 different perspectives.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[RobertEarl]

15. You are projecting. eom

[JackRiddler]

18. Pretty much...

Poll 2500 DUers (are there really 2500 active members?) and you will find two truthful perspectives - for or against the surveillance state, against or for the constitutionally protected rights. And you will find a third that is self-delusion: I may have been against it when Bush was doing it, but now it's Obama so it must not be the same thing.

Oh, and then randome as the "lone wolf" who happens to run in a pack to tear at the mention of certain names like Snowden or Assange.

[randome]

32. Sorry, I thought you were asking for opinions. My mistake!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Supersedeas]

31. there's something to that

[LittleBlue]

13. Hero. I hope hundreds more like him do the same in the future

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I believe we have a right to know when our own government is spying on us.

Edward Snowden revealed the extent of government spying, so he's closer to a hero in my book.

[gulliver]

19. Twerp

Wrong scale to be either a hero or bad actor.

[JackRiddler]

21. He sacrificed for your rights too.

And if it brings in this company, I'll be a happy twerp.

[KoKo]

22. I didn't vote in the Poll...but..

I think someday..he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Richard Bittner]

23. Ban NSA domestic spying...

Simply based on the presidential rubber stamp review group and congressional inquiry. I think it's clear that Mr. Snowden's conduct was absolutely necessary..He could not reveal the massive dragnet nature of warrantless violations of the Bill of Rights..and by implication our adversaries would also have to be clued in..Now since Al Qaeda and every current or potential enemy has been alerted ....what's the effectiveness of a spy program everyone knows about...I think the naysayers are being overdramatic...All this does is confirm what has been the subject of speculation for years...Since there is no longer any credible anti-terrorist justification, why is the warrantless domestic spy program being shoved down our throats... The secret courts were established in 1978, when Osama bin Laden was our ally..Who is behind the imposition of the National Security State? Who's agenda is being followed here? ...................Realistically the only remaining effective target of the dragnet domestic spy program is THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. I'm a bit surprised that some many here are caught in the neocon/neolib DemPublican mindtrap...Originally, the NSA was BANNED from domestic spying..At a minimum that ban MUST be permanently restored. The character and nature of the NSA is unsuitable to any domestic activity... Read about Nixon and the Watergate tapes...J.Edgar Hoover and James Jesus Angleton.. before you so readily surrender the Bill of Rights...If you are not a friend of All ten amendments you are no friend of mine.... and really don't belong in this Country.

[gopiscrap]

24. welcome to DU

[backscatter712]

28. It used to be banned.

Before 9/11 and the PATRIOT Act and 8 years of rule by the Chimpenfuhrer, we had a deal with the NSA: collect foreign intelligence, you can even use dirty tricks like hacking and wiretapping to do it, but surveillance of American citizens was off-limits. Americans get Constitutional protections, and if you want to violate the privacy of an American, go to one of the domestic law-enforcement agencies, and go get a warrant.

Now, with the War of Terror, and all the brakes taken off of the intelligence-industrial complex in the name of National Security (TM), the rules are thrown out the window. The 4th Amendment is a joke to these fuckers.

So yeah, throw me firmly in the camp of Snowden is a hero. What he did took a lot of guts, and brought all the NSA's violations of our Constitutional rights in the open.

[JackRiddler]

45. Like your sig line...

"What is PRISM? Google for Tyrants. In Soviet America, web surf YOU!"

[JackRiddler]

25. As of 10/15, it's 34-21 along the hero/bad actor split

[tridim]

26. I have yet to know a RW Libertarian that I'd consider anywhere near a "hero".

Sorry Snowjob.

[JackRiddler]

36. Just label away, maybe you can make it disappear.

So sorry that your nominal (D) is supporting the total surveillance state.

[tridim]

39. I don't support a total surveillance state.

I just don't support Snowden because he's an idiot.

[JackRiddler]

43. No, you probably don't support the total surveillance state.

Last edited Thu Oct 17, 2013, 11:20 AM - Edit history (2)

You just write like you can't deal with the fact that your nominal (D) is supporting the total surveillance state. Your discomfort with this is indicated by your reaching to find a bad label for Snowden, as if it would matter.

Did he expose rampant illegality and abuse of power by the intel agencies? Yes he did.

Should anyone should have done that? Of course. But he did, at cost to himself.

[MineralMan]

35. Pass. That is over, frankly.

There are more important issues right now. Screw Snowden. Let him stay in Russia. He's welcome to it.

[AverageJoe90]

38. Definitely a bad actor, no question about it. And one that almost certainly had malicious intent....

If you look at his past comments, particularly his hypocrisy and his support for the 'Net's favorite fibertarian, Ron Paul, and the fact that he fled straight to China, and then Russia, with all of that information he'd stolen.....that alone should set off some alarm bells. Here, the People's View site covered a bit of this:

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2013/07/how-professional-lefts-blind-obama.html

ArsTechnica managed to get some better snapshots of this guy's 'Net life.....

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/3/

[AtomicKitten]

41. The disposition of his legacy is still a work in progress.

Watch this space.

[JackRiddler]

42. I don't think it's about legacy.

The question is whether he did the right thing to expose details of the NSA spying programs.

What comes in some unspecified future? That's up to all of us.

What future consequences, intended or unintended, may one day be attributed to his action? That will require some construct of causality that will always be contestable.

It's about right now.

[JackRiddler]

46. The Kerry goes to Paris kick.

[JackRiddler]

47. This could use more votes.