FB friend is obsessed with the notion that the country is a republic (and not a democracy).

[Tommy_Carcetti]

It's very odd how vehement he is on the subject.

He's a seriously hardcore libertarian type with some strong sympathies towards the Tea Party. (He has the Yellow Snakey Flag as his icon). I also sadly believe he may be mentally ill, but that's really neither here nor there.

And every time someone uses the term "democracy" as it relates to describing the country, without fail he feels the need to interject and state that the country is not a democracy but rather a republic.

In part, I understand. We are not a direct democracy. We do not make most policy or law based on public referendum. So the term "democracy" in and of itself could be considered overbroad.

However, the way I was taught in civics class was that we were a "representative democracy", in that we elect by public vote our representatives who in turn enact laws based on their own votes. I remember being taught that while representative democracies were always republics, republics were not always representative democracies, and there were instances in history where republics did not have democratic qualities.

But please, help me. Is there some reason why some people are so insistent to call this country a republic and not a democracy (not even a representative democracy)? Or is it all some silly game of semantics?

[Bok_Tukalo]

1. They aren't mutually exclusive.

It's like claiming you do not drive a car; you drive a Ford Focus.

[jonsiee]

2. They think that "democracy" gives credit to Democrats

I seriously think that is the case. I've seen this many times and it is always a Republican making that claim.

[kestrel91316]

16. You may be onto something. They seem to hate the very notion of "democracy",

probably for the sole reason that it sounds like "Democratic" Party.

They're that stupid.

[pnwmom]

36. They hate the idea of Democracy because they know

they are outnumbered. They want a Republic because they think it will better achieve their ends as a minority.

[TDale313]

52. Yeah, this^^^

They know they're views are not majority views. The last thing they want is direct democracy.

[Tom Ripley]

55. I agree. I noticed in the 90s that they began to replace the sentimental use of "democracy"...

with the sentimental use of "freedom"
It was deliberate.

"Fighting for republicanism" doesn't really flow off the tongue.

[Kelvin Mace]

3. The country is a democratic republic

don't know why he has problems wrapping his head around that.

Like Certs, it's two, TWO political entities in One.

[solarhydrocan]

40. the US is a Constitutional Republic with Democratically elected reps

North Korea is a Democratic Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic#Constitutional_republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic

Can't begin a debate when words mean different things to different people.

A republic is literally a form of government in which affairs of state are a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), not the private concern of the rulers, in which public offices are subsequently appointed or elected rather than privately accommodated, i.e. through inheritance or divine mandate.

In modern times, the common definition of a republic is a government which excludes a monarch. For example, at the first decade of 21st century, Nepal was declared a Federal democratic Republic after abolishing its 240 year old monarchy on the 28th of May, 2008. Currently, 135 of the world's 206 sovereign states use the word "republic" as part of their official names

What do schools actually teach these days?

[wyldwolf]

48. Well, technically speaking, the US is a constitutionally limited representative democratic republic

In our form of government, the constitution limits the power of government. We elect representatives, so it's not a pure democracy. But we do elect them by majority rule so it is democratic. The infrastructure, the total form of government is a republic. Thank you Thom Hartmann. http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2010/03/usa-democracy-or-republic

Anyone who argues that the country is a Republic is correct. Anyone who argues it is a Democracy is correct.

[CJCRANE]

4. Tell him he's an idiot but not an ignoramus.

Oh wait, a person can be both an idiot *and* an ignoramus.

And America is both a representative democracy and a republic.

[el_bryanto]

5. There's a couple of reasons to focus on it - some of which are quite silly

One that you see from libertarians sometimes is that we are supposed to have a minor powerless government - and a republic is supposed to accomplish that. In a Directly Democratic world, you would have the tyranny of the majority, where the largest group of people (i.e. the takers in Libertarian Parlance) would be able to lord it over the makers.

In a republic, though, the theory is that the cream rises to the top - the representatives are chosen out of the maker class, and as such are not as responsive to the greed and selfishness of the working class and middle class takers.

I don't know - that's how I understand the argument to go - of course I have a different idea on who the takers are in our society.

Bryant

[sibelian]

6. Tell him to familiarise himself with wikipedia...

... and stop making a fool of himself.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Well, it is a Republic. That said, we do practice representative democracy. I think he

needs to revisit Civics 101.

[OldEurope]

8. A republic is

a state that is not ruled by a monarch or a dictator, but by the people. So, your friend is right. Most republics are democracies, nowadays. But for example, ancient Rome was a republic (the word derives from the Latin res publica), but not a democracy, because only some groups of the populace could influence the politics.

[madamesilverspurs]

9. In my experience,

it's a conversational distraction. It's routinely - and often loudly - interjected into public discourse in order to make the "other" look underinformed and therefor not worthy of listeners' time. I've heard it shouted at a sitting Senator and a state legislator, both times followed by mutterings of "you don't even understand the government" and "why should we listen to you?"

My take: It's a tactic, not a legitimate argument. It's a way of saying "shut up! so that I can look smarter."

[arcane1]

20. Exactly, to make themselves feel "smart." Like pretending to have read "Atlas Shrugged"

The OP's friend is an idiot

[pnwmom]

39. It's more than that. It's a way of saying that they know they're outnumbered,

so in a simple democracy they wouldn't have a chance. A Republic is supposed to protect the rights of minorities, and that's how they view themselves -- as a beleaguered but righteous minority.

And they think included in their protected rights is the right to force their legislative priorities onto the majority.

[Blue_Tires]

45. +1000

[zipplewrath]

10. To derail the larger discussion

It's most likely an attempt to derail a discussion that he feels he lacks knowledge or an advantage.

The COUNTRY is a republic. Most states are representative democracies. The nature of the Senate, and to a smaller degree the House, plus the Electorial college make us something a bit less than a "pure" representative democracy. But we're really splittin' hairs here. Functionally there's not a whole lot of difference here in the US. The only time it is significant to a discussion is when the minority is forcing something upon the majority and someone exclaims "I thought we were a democracy" or "that's not a real democratic way to do things". It was never the intent of the system for the minority to be powerless, or to always succumb to the will of the majority. Unfortunately, the current situation with significant gerrymandering by the GOP has left the situation where our government is "controlled" by roughly 30 - 50 house members. THAT wasn't the intention of the republic either.

[NuclearDem]

11. A republic is just any government sans monarch.

Most republics also elect leaders through democratic processes.

[Sheepshank]

41. So he should be asked to respond to the question

"How is China, Russia, and Canada not a republic?....if they are republics, then is the USA political system JUST LIKE theirs?"

The follow up question would then be, "How is the USA different than those republics?" The answer of course is because of "democracy"

that should shut him up

[NuclearDem]

47. Nitpick mode activated:

Canada's actually not a republic, but a constitutional monarchy, being part of the Commonwealth and all.

But yeah, spot on otherwise. Just nitpicky.

[i miss america]

12. Fill in the blank ...

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the ________ for which it stands"

Perhaps he's not as wrong as you think.

[sibelian]

14. He's perfectly idiotic.

What's he's saying makes exactly as much sense as claiming that the US is a nation, not a country.

[CJCRANE]

15. China is a republic. Does that mean America is the same as China? nt

[MADem]

18. Iran is a Republic as well...! nt

[sharp_stick]

21. Anybody that uses

a single word in the Pledge of Allegiance as a touchstone for political thought is nothing short of a fucking moron and should be dismissed as such right the fuck away.

[i miss america]

54. I'm sorry that you have such a difficult time with our nation's history

...but I assure you, I had nothing to do with it.

As Wikipedia points out, that one word was carefully chosen by its author. For whatever reason, you apparently find it highly offensive as demonstrated by your most impressive vocabulary.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Bellamy considered the words "country, nation, or Republic", choosing the last as "it distinguished the form of government chosen by the founding fathers and established by the Revolution. The true reason for allegiance to the flag is the Republic for which it stands."

[closeupready]

24. The Pledge of Allegiance ... ? REALLY?

[Ikonoklast]

53. Welllll...it *was* written by an avowed Socialist.

That little bit of reality usually makes Pukes, uh, puke.

[i miss america]

58. Yes, really. You don't think it has credibility?

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.[1] The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition.

Congressional sessions open with the recital of the Pledge, as do many government meetings at local levels, and meetings held by many private organizations. It is also commonly recited in school at the beginning of every school day, although the Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions that students cannot be compelled to recite the Pledge, nor can they be punished for not doing so.

If it is so meaningless, then why has everyone been standing up and reciting it for the past 120+ years?

[Rex]

43. That is really cute, but still make no points toward the OP.

We elect the representatives that run the government, that is called democracy and no matter how bad Repukes hate the fact that Democratic and Democracy look alike...it is still a country of elected officials. His friend is a moran and anyone else too that believes America is not a democratic country.

[maxsolomon]

13. "and to the republic for which it stands..."

fine, a democratic republic.

N. Korea is a democratic republic, too.

[The Straight Story]

17. It is not even that now, the people we elect work for the companies

And don't represent us most of the time.

Do you think the republican senators in this shut down debacle are representing the people who put them in office or following the lead of a very few select individuals?

[i miss america]

56. IMO your viewpoint is right on target

[X_Digger]

19. Let me guess, poli sci major in college?

Seems to be a meme with them.

[pnwmom]

35. It's a meme because if this were simple majority rule

then we wouldn't be having the shutdown or the debt ceiling debate. A majority in the House would have passed a clean CR and a clean debt lifting months ago.

They view themselves as an embattled minority whose rights are being protected by living in a Republic instead of a Democracy.

[X_Digger]

38. I hear it most from poli sci majors- that's all I was saying.

It's like a mathematician who quibbles about an obscure point in math that popular culture gets wrong.

[ieoeja]

22. My reply:

Our Country is a Republic with a Democratic form of Government. Or in short hand: a Democratic Republic.

What part of that do you want to change? If we:

... replace our Government with a King, then our Country would be a Kingdom (neither Democratic nor a Republic)
... replace our Government with a Dictatorship, then our Country would be a Dictatorial Republic
... replace our Government with Religious Rulers, then our Country would be a Theocratic Republic.

Other notable Republics in History include:

Roman Republic
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (actually several united Republics)
Republic of Cuba**
Peoples Republic of China**
Peoples Republic of Korea**
Peoples Republic of Vietnam**
Islamic Republic of Iran**

** These Republics still exist just so you know we have plenty of company.

We can give up Democracy and still remain a Republic if you'd like. If not Democracy, which of the other possible forms of government would you prefer we use in our Republic?

[louis-t]

23. A very easy explanation: "Democracy is the style of government...

republic is the entity." No further explanation is necessary.

[tridim]

25. Every Republican I know has used that line on me, once. nt

[DrDan]

26. must be a neil boorz listener

boorz harps on that all the time. I believe you hit it on the head - a silly game of semantics as well as attempting to appear to know more about the government than everyone else.

[mulsh]

27. Its an asshole's way to control the discussion, it's a meme the libertarians have been

pushing for a while. It switches the discussion to a pointless argument if you're not careful.

I started using "representative democracy" when discussing governance with the few libertarian friends I can still stand.

other posters have some very good insights on this issue.

[Blue Idaho]

28. Just because its a republic - doesn't make being a republican a good thing or even a right thing.

What's remains of the Teapublican party looks a hell of a lot more like the John Birch Society than anything like your dad's GOP. These southern state bigots might as well be burning crosses and looking for commies under every bed. I'll bet they even pray to a photo of old Joe McCarthy - the most hated member of congress ever.

[Humanist_Activist]

29. Maybe he's just vehemently anti-Monarchist?

OK, that is probably a faint hope, but to put in most generally a republic is a government without monarchy. This country is a representative democratic constitutional republic. Or switch the words around, doesn't matter too much, lot of adjectives though.

[NutmegYankee]

30. We are both.

A republic in structure (as opposed to a monarchy) and a Democracy in style (Representative democracy).

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. I think the reason is that people like that admire Rome more than Athens

'Republic' - meaning 'object of the people' in Latin - is what Rome called itself. 'Democracy' - 'rule by the people' in Greek - is what Athens tried, for a bit. Both, of course, had slaves, and women got no say (apart from any personal influence the richest might have had), but Rome divided people up into classes more. It did last longer, and conquered more territory, and was nominally a 'republic' when in fact it was an empire in which supreme power was inherited, or seized by someone with sufficient military support.

I think those that like to insist the the USA is not a democracy are most in love with the military aspects of Rome.

[eShirl]

32. funny, we were a democracy during the Cold War

I wonder what's changed?

[pnwmom]

33. They oppose majority rule. I ran into someone like that just yesterday

on a relative's FB page.

They use their ideas about the US being a Republic to justify the thought that the majority shouldn't always rule (as long as they're in the minority). Because we live in a Republic, they -- as part of a minority -- get to impose their priorities on the majority. This wouldn't happen in a simple Democracy.

Here's an example of one of these people debating with a Dem:

DEM: If Obama caves, then they'll be trying this every few months, with each temporary extension of the debt ceiling. Since they don't have enough members to get all their legislation passed in the usual way, they'll accomplish their goals by tying them to the debt ceiling instead -- and that will be the end of majority rule. Their wish list this time included almost every legislative priority of Mitt Romney's. What would it be next time? Getting rid of the Medicaid Program? How about Medicare, or privatizing social security? What's to stop them from demanding anything they want in the future if they learn that this tactic works for them?

Tea Party: WE are a republic., not a democracy. In a republic the majority rules but the minority still has rights that are untouchable. Even if a majoirty vote to come back with legalized slavery, or to end freedom of religion, or to do away with the right to keep and bear arms, the minority still has those rights protected. Nothing short of a change in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights could do that. I never want to live in a democracy. I prefer a republic, and that's why even our pledge or allegiance proclaims that.


Dem: You are very right. But the minority in this case isn't trying to protect its CIVIL RIGHTS -- it's trying to ride roughshod over the majority and impose its legislative priorities on everyone else. . . .

[solarhydrocan]

42. the majority can rule to take away the freedom of speech

but in our Constitutional Republic it doesn't take away the first amendment.

Note that they are the Bill of Rights, not Suggestions and these rights are not granted by the government.

Civics 101

[Orsino]

34. Perhaps it's the only fact he knows. n/t

[bluestate10]

37. Tell the damned Fool to look up the word "Republic" and read the whole fucking definition. nt

[Jenoch]

44. Technically, the USA is a representative republic.

That is, we elect people to represent us. Everyone votes only to choose someone to represent us in the various units of elected bodies, thus we are not really a democracy at all.

[Adrahil]

46. It's false intellectualism...

.... But they aren't educated enough to know that a republic can be a democracy... Especially a representative democracy like ours.

[wyldwolf]

49. Thom Harmann spoke of this once

It's a transcript of his radio show, but it's quite clear:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2010/03/usa-democracy-or-republic

[Beearewhyain]

50. Hey, I know that guy on FB

and then I defriended him.

Let me guess, he goes off on the "sheeple", Ron Paul is the second coming of Jesus' and Thomas Jefferson's love child, calls people stupid while making egregious grammar mistakes (i.e.your stupid) and when ever you would inquire as to why he has that "Republic" fetish responds with invective.

Not worth trying to figure out IMHO.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

59. Except for the grammar issue, you've pretty much nailed him.

Especially as it relates to the Pauls.

[Beearewhyain]

60. One thing about libertarians

is that they are consistent, simple but consistent. Any question you have, the answer is always the same. Stub your toe...it's the governments fault. Coffee burn your tongue... governments fault. Got fired from your job...damn government.

Then there is the whole Austrian school economics and gold buggery which follows the same line of thinking but replaces "government" as the problem with "gold standard" as the answer.

In essence I think it is just a general fear/rejection of nuance and ambiguity which explains the hostility they show when presented with any.

Good luck with him.

[starroute]

51. It's an old John Birch Society slogan

You can find what Birch Society founder Robert Welch wrote in 1961 at http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/15370-republics-and-democracies

The short version is that crypto-fascists like the Birchers and their heirs have no faith in we-the-people and do their best to convince themselves that our constitutional system of government was constructed to ward off the horror of actual popular government.

[Narkos]

57. Great link explaining all this teabagger bullshit

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-democracy.htm