How can people say that ACA makes us less free (or enslaves us)

[Proud Liberal Dem]

when nearly every major industrialized nation in the world has a (in most cases) much more progressive health care system than we do and yet there is absolutely no way that anybody could even begin to suggest that their citizens are living under the boot of a totalitarian dictatorships? England? France? Germany? Dicatorships? I know. It's completely nonsensical but Fox viewers, Limbaugh listeners, et. al believe that a modest package of reforms of our health care/insurance system- apparently the least that our Congress back in 2010 could manage to adopt without being swallowed up by a black hole (or something) have become slaves under a re-elected socialist tyranny. They fail to realize and/or appreciate the irony of being allowed to listen/watch anti-Obama propaganda 24-7-365 without them- or Fox News staff, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, et. al- being hauled off to Gitmo. I guess that it just proves what a horrible dictator Obama has been?

[JustAnotherGen]

1. Honestly?

They say that because they are being willfully ignorant. They choose to be and think this way. They know what they say is not the truth - but when you are a person of the lie - the lie is all you have to hold onto.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

29. Yeah, well, sort of....

But some of these people really are apocalyptic nutcases. People like Michelle Bachman really think we're approaching the end times, so having a black dude as President must be a sign. These raving lunatics actually want war in the Middle East, because they think that will usher in the Kingdom of God. Funny how a deity capable of creating the universe would need "ushering" assistance from some Minnesotan nitwit -- pretty puny god she's worshipping, if you ask me.

[DJ13]

2. Its easier to pay for socialized medicine through taxes than through insurance premiums

[Bunnahabhain]

5. Really?

So you think the country with the best healthcare in the world for the last 10 years, per the World Health Organization, should change how it works?

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. France? They have socialized healthcare. Paid by taxes. n/t

[Bunnahabhain]

9. You are wrong

Sorry, cannot sugar coat it.

It is a public/private mix, a Bismark system.

[LadyHawkAZ]

18. Here's the WHO report:

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/

That's France that got the title, not the US. We clocked in at #37. We're #37! Yay Murica! Don't change a thing!

[Bunnahabhain]

20. Yeah, I know it was France.

Did you think I referenced the WHO report without knowing? Seriously?

And now that you have the report are you ready to admit you're wrong above? France is a Bismark system (as I've said endlessly and to no avail).

Oh, and here's a little quote from an NPR article by a guy at NAU. I picked this as you seem to be in AZ.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273

[quote]"Americans assume that if it's in Europe, which France is, that it's socialized medicine," he says. "The French don't consider their system socialized. In fact, they detest socialized medicine. For the French, that's the British, that's the Canadians. It's not the French system."[/quote]

But you no doubt know better than the French what their system is, right? Right?

[LadyHawkAZ]

25. France provides universal health coverage paid for by automatic deductions

i.e. payroll taxes. What exactly are you quibbling about?

[Bunnahabhain]

26. You could say the same about the US

except for the universal part. What I am "quibbling" about is the truth. It's not socialized, as you said it was (in fact France prides itself on patient choice, the number of doctors in private practice, and it has the largest private hospital system in Europe), and it is not all paid through taxes (as was stated.)

Other than being totally wrong you were perfectly correct!

Now, here is the difference between you and me. It was just pointed out I was spelling "Bismarck" incorrectly. Instead of being stupid I thanked the person for correcting me. I am more about what actually is right vs. trying to make out I'm always right.

[LadyHawkAZ]

28. What the person you responded to said:

Its easier to pay for socialized medicine through taxes than through insurance premiums

What you said was:

So you think the country with the best healthcare in the world for the last 10 years, per the World Health Organization, should change how it works?

Were you arguing the taxes vs. premiums part (which was what it sounded like), or just the use of the term "socialized medicine" as a descriptor for universal healthcare?

[Bunnahabhain]

30. My point was a bit deeper than that

In typical American fashion the poster thinks he has "The Answer." My post was meant to shock and stimulate thinking. France is not socialized healthcare, insurance premiums exist. Possibly the poster does not have "The Answer" since the world's #1 country for healthcare, 10 years straight, is not a socialized system completely paid for by taxes?

Everyone here on DU is so sure "The Answer" to healthcare is single payer socialized medicine. Many of the best systems in the world (France, Germany, Japan to name three) are not single payer and are not socialized.

Edit: Fun fact: Japan has more privately owned hospitals than the US does!

[Fumesucker]

33. What is the average copay and deductible in France, Germany and Japan?

How do those figures compare with the same numbers under the ACA in America?

[DJ13]

8. Yes

using the already in place tax system to fund healthcare removes the various pricing levels for patient conditions that insurance companies use in their profit structures.

It also broadens the cost structure out, lowering the price for everyone.

[Bunnahabhain]

10. No

Bismark system > single payer.

[DJ13]

11. You're entitled to hold the wrong opinion

[Bunnahabhain]

13. You've never heard of a Bismark system, have you?

Tell the truth.

[DJ13]

14. I dont care

You have a vested interest in maintaining our bastardized heathcare system, dont you?

Tell the truth.

[Bunnahabhain]

16. You do not care to educate yourself?

Nice.

If you did you'd know your accusation was stupid as I back a Bismark system. Ignorance is slavery.

[beerandjesus]

19. It's spelled "Bismarck"

Sorry, I'm not usually a spelling Nazi, and I'm not getting involved in this debate. But if you're going to keep saying "Bismarck" over and over, please spell it right.

[Bunnahabhain]

22. Whoops.

You're correct. Sorry about that.

[DJ13]

23. So no answer on the vested interest thing?

[Bunnahabhain]

24. My answer was not clear enough?

Well that makes sense for someone that openly admits they do not care to learn anything.

[Fumesucker]

34. It wasn't an answer, it was an evasion that did not speak at all to the question n/t

[Puzzledtraveller]

12. A no-brainer you'd think.

Or maybe that is the problem. No brains.

[ErikJ]

3. Actually ACA sets us FREE from employer-based healthcare bondage

Millions are trapped in their jobs because they have pre-existing conditions and know they wouldnt be able to get insurance at all if they quit. That is slavery. ACA outlaws considerations of pre-existing conditions for getting health insurance.

[treestar]

4. good sum-up!

these people are nuts!

[datasuspect]

7. people in civilized countries

are not compelled under the law to transact business with for profit private corporations to get access to healthcare.

their taxes pay into a system that provides a benefit for the common weal.

you see here in Uhhhhhmerica there's been a plan in place to destroy the commons.

[Puzzledtraveller]

15. I'm a big fan of the Final Fantasy roleplaying game series.

I often say that they could slap "Final Fantasy" on an empty box and I would buy it. I think that is what the ACA is for most Democrats. It has a (D) stamped on it so it must be good. If it came from the (R) brand we would need extra servers to contain the outrage here on DU daily about how the Republicans are making us buy private insurance.

[datasuspect]

17. and it is republican policy from its inception

i am amazed at how stupid most people have become.

that's why i try not to even bother.

i just want to get my kicks in before the whole shithouse collapses.

[peace13]

21. I've lost the ability to go bankrupt if I have a medical emergency...

I feel my freedom has been impaired....that is the only argument that I can imagine!

Actually I am still out in the 'free' market paying $2600 per month with $40 co pays and large deductibles for three people. I am hoping that next year ACA will reach the small business owners and send us a lifeline as well.

[jeff47]

27. Because actually describing the law would not work.

Their political philosophy is that the government is always the problem, so if government provides a solution, that would show their philosophy is wrong.

If they had to apply tangible reasons to oppose the ACA, they would lose. Badly. So they provide intangible reasons like "freedom".

[alc]

31. mandate is a precedent that reduces freedom

It allows the government to provide services (i.e. health care) without collecting a tax but by making us pay a private company. They take credit but have a layer between us and them where they can lay blame if something goes wrong.

We have control of how taxes are managed (vote the bastards out) but not of how mandatory private payments are used. Yes, we can vote out the bastards that don't push for tight regulations, but there is an extra layer between us and our money and multiple parties blaming each other. Is is really the congress' fault? Or the businesses fault? Or regulators lying to congress? Or is the business lying to the regulators? Or are we really getting a reasonable deal? Our taxes should go to a government and be used in a transparent manner with open accounting books so we can see how they are used. Any other forced payments do make us less free.

And the government rarely if ever lets a precedent sit unused. If it works for health insurance you can bet that future politicians will call for other mandates.

[Lawlbringer]

32. Affordable healthcare is just something they're told to fight

In much the same way I've heard people saying they can't wait until 2016 to "Vote Obumbo out of office."

I find it's easier to read everything, acknowledge legit issues, and simply laugh at stupidity instead of trying to fix it.