"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

A quote from Churchill.

Churchill was:

9 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	a pessimist
	0 (0%)
	considered an optimist by pessimists
	0 (0%)
	correct
	9 (100%)
	a half empty glass
	0 (0%)
	a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be
	0 (0%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[Cal Carpenter]

1. ...a piece of shit war criminal, perhaps? n/t

[el_bryanto]

3. Winston Churchill? I know he was anti Communist, but didn't know he was a war criminal. nt

[Posteritatis]

9. No leaders during that war came out with anything vaguely resembling clean hands. (nt)

[grantcart]

19. just so we are clear you consider FDR a war criminal, correct?

[Posteritatis]

24. I see what you're trying to do there, but by contemporary standards? Sure.

Every single leader of a major belligerent nation in that war condoned, approved or directly ordered things that most reasonable people in the here and now would consider war crimes. While the atrocities were definitely weighted heavily towards the Axis powers and the Soviet Union, pretty much everyone came out of the war having committed their share or more. Heck, there was even an "unlawful combatant" loophole in place at the end of the war, specifically meant to exempt about three and a half million surrendered soldiers from the Geneva Conventions.

That being said, it's still completely obvious to anyone who's up to date on paying their brain bills that the right side won. It's more up in the air over whether it could have been won in a less brutal manner - I'm inclined not to think so but others can and have made the argument - but we're talking about what happened, not what could or should have happened. There aren't many large-scale actions that took place during the Second World War that wouldn't be almost unanimously condemned as war crimes were they ordered by an American president today, even in the instance of a straight-up great-power conventional war that somehow didn't become a nuclear exchange. But those actions did take place in spades.

Not really sure why that fact's something worth beginning to rear up in indignation over. It's utterly straightforward.

[grantcart]

25. The only thing I am trying to do is see if you consider FDR a war criminal.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. Just for the record...

...many do for his responsibility regarding the Manhattan Project and later use of the bomb against Japan.

[PETRUS]

33. Painter! Racist!

Since we're naming random qualities attributable to Churchill.

Or we could play the list some anticommunist war criminals game: Hitler! Kissinger!

Or maybe we're just spouting non-sequiturs: Tunafish! Hostages!

[catnhatnh]

2. Here's one vote...

..for upper class imperialist war monger.

[arely staircase]

4. one might argue the man saved western civilization nt

[Posteritatis]

11. One might also argue that hyperbole is worse than a billion root canals (nt)

[DireStrike]

12. Kilt the nazis, himself 'e did, right with his bare 'ands!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. correction:

Kilt the nazis, 'imself 'e did, right with 'is bare 'ands!

[DireStrike]

14. Thanks! My god that post of mine was atrocious.

I'm gonna blame it on all that drinking I did last night.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. 'ho ya think that bloak was...

...buyin' pints next ta ya?

[Igel]

5. Choose "pass."

He was right, but I'm feeling more than a little contrarian today.

So while he was correct, I'm not going to say it.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

8. Apparently...

...you're not felling all that contrary as you have 'voted' to not vote in a poll on misgivings about voting.

(I think?)

[Zorra]

6. Yep. Spend 5 minutes talking with a republican voter, and it becomes obvious that we need to

institute genuine democracy in America ASAP.

[gordianot]

7. On some issues it takes less time than 5 minutes.

Just ask if they support the ACA or Obamacare, I know it is a somewhat leading question but good grief.

[DireStrike]

10. From a rhetorical standpoint, yeah

Absolutely correct.

The "next best" argument against Democracy is usually something like asserting that in some cases it amounts to mob rule.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. I view government as...

...a mechanism to cancel out the extremes in voter preferences at both ends of the bell shaped curve and allow the center through.

[ismnotwasm]

16. I'll pass on this

And give my current opinion with a qualifier;


In a country that is, for the greater part, fed, clothed and sheltered, in a country where war has not reached its boarders; or has been generally victorious in war; in a country where the most poverty is a sub-culture and therefore invisible for all intents and purposes, in a country where personal pleasure is considered before activism for "a good cause", if indeed activism is considered at all, or just left for clergy, in a country where political discussion happens on bars stools and gyms; in a country where racism is denied and sexism is the standard; in a country where politics are easily polarized and people vote against their own interests because of ignorance and prejudice

Well, in country with all that going on, I still say he's a pessimist.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. In a vote where heads are only counted...

...it would be a loss if yours were not weighed as well.

[rrneck]

17. An interestng book...

The Wisdom of Crowds

From Publishers Weekly
While our culture generally trusts experts and distrusts the wisdom of the masses, New Yorker business columnist Surowiecki argues that "under the right circumstances, groups are remarkably intelligent, and are often smarter than the smartest people in them." To support this almost counterintuitive proposition, Surowiecki explores problems involving cognition (we're all trying to identify a correct answer), coordination (we need to synchronize our individual activities with others) and cooperation (we have to act together despite our self-interest). His rubric, then, covers a range of problems, including driving in traffic, competing on TV game shows, maximizing stock market performance, voting for political candidates, navigating busy sidewalks, tracking SARS and designing Internet search engines like Google. If four basic conditions are met, a crowd's "collective intelligence" will produce better outcomes than a small group of experts, Surowiecki says, even if members of the crowd don't know all the facts or choose, individually, to act irrationally. "Wise crowds" need (1) diversity of opinion; (2) independence of members from one another; (3) decentralization; and (4) a good method for aggregating opinions. The diversity brings in different information; independence keeps people from being swayed by a single opinion leader; people's errors balance each other out; and including all opinions guarantees that the results are "smarter" than if a single expert had been in charge. Surowiecki's style is pleasantly informal, a tactical disguise for what might otherwise be rather dense material. He offers a great introduction to applied behavioral economics and game theory.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. I suppose that's why we vote

I've read that on game shows the "ask the audience" response is correct 91% of the time.

[LeftishBrit]

20. He was a conservative aristocrat who had an ambivalent attitude to democracy

He was very flawed; but, with all his flaws, he carried out the the vital task of defeating Hitler.

But I am not sure that we should be taking his attitude to those whom he would have called the 'common people'.

Though did in the end conclude that 'democracy is the worst possible system of government - except for all the others'.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

22. OTOH...

"Those who can win a war well can rarely make a good peace and those who could make a good peace would never have won the war." "The problems of victory are more agreeable than those of defeat, but they are no less difficult."

[LostOne4Ever]

26. I wish you would have found a quote from a liberal

Rather than one of the heroes of the right >.<

Surely Mark Twain, FDR, Walt Witman, Thoreau, Emerson, Jefferson, Langston Hughes or someone on the left made a similar comment?

Something like:


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Abraham Lincoln[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]“As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy.”

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

27. A great FDR quote just for you:

"Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."

[LostOne4Ever]

28. Thank you!

[pampango]

30. Winston would have preferred a government by a self-selected elite

rather than involving the flawed common citizen in the process?

Well, he was a conservative, after all. Thankfully, liberals do not agree with that (though conservatives like to paint us S "out-of-touch" wishful thinkers).

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. While I agree...

...with Churchill's statement of the problem and have an appreciation for his language in expressing it, his solution is distressing and against my principles and preferences.

[hobbit709]

32. He had some other comments about democracy.

http://richardlangworth.com/worst-form-of-government

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

34. Some rather useful observations.