Do you agree that Veterans should be shut out of Memorials on the National Mall, honoring THEM...

[cherokeeprogressive]

at the risk of being arrested, but that others should be allowed to PROTEST on the National Mall, the government's policy concerning immigration?

Memorials dedicated to those who sacrificed ALL THEY HAD TO GIVE and in doing so made this country a PLACE where immigrants the world over wished to come, are CLOSED to their Survivors. Memorials dedicated to those who followed in their footsteps and helped protect what their Ancestors died for are CLOSED to them, so they cannot go and pay their respects to those people who stood beside them and helped (or so they believed, possibly mistakenly) PROTECT the freedoms we today hold so deeply.

Yet tomorrow, SEIU is hosting a PRO-IMMIGRATION rally on the same ground that those people ARE BARRED FROM TREADING ON at the moment.

http://www.seiu.org/2013/10/camino-americano-march-for-immigration-reform.php

Do you think this is right?

18 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	8 (44%)
	No
	10 (56%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Deep13]

1. This isn't about the parks. That's a made-up issue. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. The National Mall isn't closed to vistors? It's not open to tomorrow's protest? See PARK anywhere

in my post? What did I make up?

[Deep13]

6. I don't care.

I'm more concern with people being deprived of paychecks and benefits than I am with a handful of folks being inconvenienced on their vacation. Right wing media has been harping on the parks to distract people. Obviously.

[Decaffeinated]

10. Since you don't care everyone else has to feel the same way?

It doesn't make it a non-issue.

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. For some, it's much MORE than a vacation... It's about HONORING those they SERVED with.

For some it's a fucking pilgrimage. For some it's a way to go and pay respects to men and women they served next to; who gave their fucking all and by all I mean life and limb. Men and Women they served with, who fucking either died or disappeared.

A "handful of folks being inconvenienced on their vacation."? Fuck me how old are you?

I fucking love knowing I'm on the same side as people like you. Fucking love it.

[Abq_Sarah]

14. Let's tell that 92 year old vet in the wheelchair

That it's just a vacay and he's free to come back next year.

[cherokeeprogressive]

16. It's not HIS turn tomorrow...

It's the protesters'.

[REP]

3. The WWI Memorial is open

Of course, it's not on the Mall.

http://theworldwar.org

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. Moot, then?

[REP]

5. Re-read my post

Thanks.

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. Yeah, it's not on the Mall.

Moot.

[REP]

8. Right. Because there is no national WWI Memorial

The only one in the US is the one in KCMO built (and then restored) by the citizens of KCMO.

- granddaughter of a member of the Rainbow Division

[Abq_Sarah]

12. That's the museum

There is no national WWI memorial. Since there are no surviving veterans, there's no constituency to please, apparently.

[REP]

15. It's attached to the Memorial

Heres a view of the Memorial - you can see the Weeping Sphinxes in it somewhat:

[jonsiee]

35. There is a WWI Memorial on the National Mall

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_War_Memorial

[gopiscrap]

50. Welcome to DU

[dkf]

40. Guess all the WW I vets can see it while they are still living then.

I'm sure those WWII vets (young whippersnappers!) can make it back sometime right? Easy trip, no?

[Agnosticsherbet]

9. I'm a veteran, but the national mall belongs to all of us

the monuments belongs to all of us.

Protesting is a critical method of addressing the government, it is an essential expression of freedom of speech. Most of the vets I know recognize that critical freedom must be protected.

[Abq_Sarah]

13. I'm all for that.

Maybe I ought to go to Bandelier National Monument on Wednesday and demand entrance so I can take a hike around the monument and protest. Think it will work out for me?

[Agnosticsherbet]

17. A hike isn't freedom of speech. n/t

[Abq_Sarah]

19. If I express my political opinions while hiking

It damned sure is freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does not require sponsorship, organized activities or an audience.

[pinboy3niner]

18. Veterans are not being denied access to the WWII Memorial

At the closed-off National World War II Memorial, two days of assaults by veterans prompted the National Park Service to announce that they had the legal right to be there and would not be barred in the future.

National Park Service to keep WW II Memorial open to veterans
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-10-02/local/42603971_1_national-park-service-fence-playground

[LAGC]

20. And another right-wing talking point shot down.

Really pathetic that this tripe is being regurgitated from FAUX News.

[Abq_Sarah]

21. It should be open to everyone

Not just veterans. Public lands belong to us all.

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. The Vietnam Memorial is open as well?

And the rest of the Mall?

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. The article is from 10/2.

The NPS website for the WWII Memorial says it's closed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. It was closed.

And the fact that it is open now shows that the entire exercise in shutting it down over a supposed lack of funding was just BS.

"two days of assaults"? Shame on WaPo for inflammatory hyperbole.

[B Calm]

23. Only the hypocritical show boating republicans

who ordered the shut down should be shut out!

[IdaBriggs]

24. I am sorry. I have zero respect for this post.

The Republicans have shut down the government. People who provide important services - keeping places clean, safe, protected from vandalism - are working for free (which I think demonstrates utmost respect for the people the memorials honor) or scrambling to find ways to pay their bills.

In my opinion, it is like a picket line, and since I am from Michigan, crossing the line is considered inappropriate. Either the services were important enough for people to be doing them, or you can pretend the visitors don't litter, won't play with spray cans, etc.

I find this post to be divisive - pitting two good groups against each other as if their interests aren't the same.

The true issue is about getting the government out of shut-down while keeping constitutional checks-and-balances in place.

This post is inappropriate distraction. I reject its premise.

That is all.

[Javaman]

25. +1 nt

[FSogol]

26. +1 Exactly. n/t

[djean111]

28. +1000

[Agschmid]

33. Could not agree more, excellent post.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. The WW2 memorial is, by law, privately funded.

Closing privately financed memorials is not a picket line. We own the cops, not vice versa. If they forget their place they can march their butts off to a different career.

[IdaBriggs]

41. The cops are working for free.

Do you really believe vandals wouldn't take the opportunity to deface the memorials with impunity if the cops weren't there?

For pity's sake, young vandals randomly deface cemetary headstones.

How quickly people forget!

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Vandalism-Discovered-at-Lincoln-Memorial-217075581.html

[RandiFan1290]

48. The corporations pay big $$ for their propaganda

It's still shocking to see the people lap it up and regurgitate it so easily and with such ignorant arrogance.

[Katashi_itto]

29. As a vet I see this as a BS issue. They should be closed with everything else.

This post is meant to be a distraction from the real issues.

[Marrah_G]

30. I think the Boehner should put the fucking bill up for a vote

[BlueToTheBone]

31. If we can't have meat inspectors, please don't have

recreation. 300 people were sickened or died from eating tainted chicken in the past week. Party's over.

[IdaBriggs]

43. ^=== This. nt

[DonRedwood]

32. I'd rather honor them by making sure their grandchildren have lunch

or attend Head Start.

We have people starving in this country.... that is more important than memorials.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. "honor them by making sure their grandchildren have lunch or attend Head Start"

Do they teach German in those Head Start classes?

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. I think this is nonsensical bullshit dressed up in a flag

Quite frankly, this sounds like it was cut and pasted word for word from someplace like Worldnet Daily. I'm not sure what's worse; the rah-rah jingoism, or the implicit disdain for protest.

NB that it'd be the DC police and not NPS policing said event; the reason the memorials on the Mall are closed? The staff aren't being paid. If the NPS and not the DC police were expected to police any march/rally/protest? It wouldn't be happening. But since they aren't? This is stupid and ugly right-wing rubbish.

[HooptieWagon]

36. If National Parks are closed....

...they should be closed to everyone. Eventually the shutdown will end, and people (all people) will be free to use them again. In the meantime, protest groups are welcome to use the streets, State and County Parks, and other spaces not affected by the shutdown.
Shutting down govt for some groups, yet not for others, seems blatently undemocratic and unconstitutional.

[nolabear]

42. This is hardly a fair poll question.

The language is leading and the premise is filled with false equivalence. The memorials are closed due to worker furlough. The mall is an open space where people can exercise their right to protest.

[SoCalDem]

45. The whole issue is just more BS from the GOP

THEY PRECIPITATED THE SHUTDOWN...and of course then they ran over to the closest photo-op to pretend they were being patriotic by letting some old vets into the very place THEY SHUT DOWN..

Of course our idiotic media focused on the poor old folks who just wanted IN, and spent far less time reporting on the INANE and despicable behavior of the GOPers.


Republicans are experts at framing, so of course they have this all figured out.. They play the "Mom-loved-me-more" game very well.. It's NOT okay to deny veterans ANYTHING (unless they are vets between WWII and GW1), so the poor kids in Head Start can be kicked to the curb because they are mostly portrayed by media as poor children of color...same as food stamp recipients (they are just freeloaders).. They way they shutdown government always has special carve-outs for their pet-issues/people, but everyone else can go pound sand...so it then morphs into a "partial" shutdown....shutting down only they things they don't like...and when things start back up again, a new "starting place" has been ratcheted downward.

Anyone who thinks this is not all planned out is being naive.

As for the old vets... Perhaps their trip could have been delayed just a little while until this all got sorted out, but the tour company that set it up would have lost money, and a photo op of these old guys being "disrespected" would not have been front page news...

[Skidmore]

46. Do you think it is alright for people to be exploited for

decades to create wealth for this nation only to face the possibility of having their families split up for political reasons? Have these immigrants not also served this nation well? I do believe that our Declaration of Independence declares that all men have rights and don't think that is limited to those with US citizenship or those who have served in the military. Anyone who contributes to the collective efforts of this nation, serves it and preserves it.

[Sunlei]

47. WashDC live cam link. tourist all over the place. Just workers Rs have shut-out from their jobs

http://www.webcamgalore.com/EN/webcam-map/USA/Washington-DC-District-of-Columbia/city-96.html

[Bluenorthwest]

49. It's not the same ground. This is right wing bullshit. Memorial is National Park

Services staff, they are on furlough. The Mall where the protest will be is policed by DC Police, and they are not on furlough. The two areas are not 'the same ground' and nothing is stopping Veterans from visiting the Mall nor from joining the protest on the Mall.
This is trumped up bullshit.

[cynatnite]

51. It's more important for vets to be taken care of than to go to a memorial. n/t

[BluegrassStateBlues]

52. Everyone should feel the pain.

It adds to the imagery of a shutdown when the worst effects are not seen by the public eye.

[Lex]

53. This sounds Fox Newsy. nt

[hrmjustin]

54. The shutdown of the government is wrong. My understanding is that for saftey reasons

the memorials have to be shutdown.

[gopiscrap]

55. the law applies to EVERYBODY!!!

[kestrel91316]

56. I think the grounds should be open but the buildings closed.

[WovenGems]

57. Us veterans

know how to slide by guards. And what to tell the judge if caught.
We're good.

[AtomicKitten]

58. Your argument mirrors the GOP's talking point de jour.

You should ask that question of the wingnuts holding a gun to America's head.

[LanternWaste]

63. Wonderful graphic, and the most relevant response to date.

Wonderful graphic, and the most relevant response to date. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

64. I'm always surprised when RW memes are dragged here.

There are so many lies buzzing around like flies on dog poo ---->

[Pretzel_Warrior]

59. I voted yes just to piss you off

Veterans should learn to obey rules.

[bullwinkle428]

60. Please tell me how this is any different from a certain "EX"-DUer who would

post incredibly divisive shit from "TEH PEOPLE'S VIEW!!1!" with the intent of doing nothing more than stirring shit between DUers. It turned this place into the equivalent of the "FOOD FIGHT" scene from "Animal House"!

In other words...dude - I know you're better than this!

[RobinA]

61. I Don't Get

this whole "closed" bit. The WWII monument is a space. Can't you go there at 2 in the morning? Whether this stuff is "open" or "closed," it should be the same for everyone.

[ecstatic]

62. Maybe direct these questions to a rethug?

After all, they're responsible for this.