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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCatholic Bishops wrote letter to GOP calling for shutdown over contraceptives
BY IAN MILLHISER ON OCTOBER 7, 2013 AT 2:17 PM
One week before House Republicans shut down the government in an effort to force President Obama to enact many of their preferred policies, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops wrote House members requesting that the government be shut down and potentially that the nation be forced into default unless religious employers were given a special right to deny birth control coverage to their employees. As Adele Stan reports, a letter signed by Cardinal Sean OMalley of Boston and Archbishop William Lori of Baltimore told lawmakers that, [w]e have already urged you to enact the Health Care Conscience Rights Act (H.R. 940/S. 1204). As Congress considers a Continuing Resolution and debt ceiling bill in the days to come, we reaffirm the vital importance of incorporating the policy of this bill into such must-pass legislation.
The Health Care Conscience Rights Act permits religious employers to exclude any item or service to which [they have] a moral or religious objection from the health insurance package offered to employees.
Shortly after the Obama Administration announced rules requiring most employers to provide birth control to their employees, the Bishops rebelled, offering an unusually expansive reading of the Constitution and of a federal religious liberty law to claim that these rules are invalid. Their letter demanding a shut down unless they get their way on birth control, however, is a major escalation from their previous position. It is one thing to request a carve out from a law you do not want to follow while the rest of the nation continues its business around you, but its another thing altogether to demand that the government shut down because you are unhappy with the current state of the law. In this regard, the Bishops tactic is identical to that of Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX), who insisted on a shut down unless he got his way on health care.
Except that, unlike Ted Cruz, the Bishops speak on behalf of a church that claims that government has a responsibility to protect human life and dignity, care for poor and vulnerable people at home and abroad, and advance the universal common good. Because of the government shutdown, mothers and young children risk losing their benefits under the Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) nutrition program. Many Head Start programs halted educational services to low-income children. And federal funds are shut off to many domestic violence programs.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/10/07/2743471/catholic-bishops-to-house-shut-down-the-government-unless-we-get-our-way-on-birth-control/
This is why we need separation of church and state.
arthritisR_US
(7,291 posts)Ilsa
(61,698 posts)russspeakeasy
(6,539 posts)stillcool
(32,626 posts)Destroy the country over more white men's views on birth control.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)Remember that farce of a hearing when those idiot bishops and a cabal of other men, were the only ones invited to discuss women's health?
stillcool
(32,626 posts)Different religious figures attempts at influencing elections....but a group of Catholic bishops trying to shut down the government? For some reason I thought the catholic church was a little more covert with their attempts at applying influence. Perhaps that was the Catholic Church of my youth.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)and then we are called "religious bigots" because we don't just smile and nod and go along with this vile institution and we don't pee ourselves for joy because the new pope washed somebody's feet and isn't quite as scary and draconian as the last one.
sammytko
(2,480 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)to keep my mind occupied, thank you. Case in point right here in the OP.
rug
(82,333 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)They were endorsing the same type of hostage taking the GOP is doing. I guess you could argue that they were really calling for Democrats to cave and give them what they want before the shut down happens, but if they tie their provision to must pass legislation and that legislation does not pass it results in a shut down. They are taking the same position as the GOP in attaching controversial policy positions to must pass legislation, I think that makes it entirely accurate to say they were calling for shut down.
rug
(82,333 posts)The endorsement of hostage taking is entirely in the mind of the writer.
Read this letter:
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/federal-budget/upload/letters-to-congress-shutdown-2013-09-30.pdf
You know, I really don't mind reflexive Catholic-bashing but I despise clumsy Catholic-bashing.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The Catholic bishops are doing the exact same thing, they asked for their anti-choice legislation to be attached to a bill they knew would result in a government shut down if it did not pass. You can dismiss this fact as "Catholic bashing" but it is a fact, the Catholic bishops asked the GOP to include their anti-choice bill into the ransom demands.
rug
(82,333 posts)If you think the GOP wants to stop it because of contraception, you're naïve.
The RCC does not oppose it. It wants a conscience exemption on contraception and abortion.
Like it or not like it, they're two different things. To say otherwise is patently dishonest.
And I'm not dismissing the Catholic bashing at all. I'm describing it.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Whether or not they oppose Obamacare is not the issue here, the issue is they asked for their anti-choice legislation that they know does not have the votes to pass through legitimate means to a must pass bill. It is patently dishonest to deny that what they were recommending an action that would result in a shut down of government if they did not get their way.
rug
(82,333 posts)It's been like that since before Griswold.
And they will continue to ask for "must pass" legislation. That's what the USCCB does.
But to put these perennial requests at the feet of the shutdown is absurd. Patently absurd.
You haven't said, but why do you think the September 30 letter was sent?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)"Must Pass" legislation means bills that absolutely must pass in order for the government to function, the vast majority of legislation is not "must pass" legislation. Must pass legislation are bills that need to pass to avoid a government shut down.
Their September 26th letter was the letter that called for their anti-choice legislation to be tied to must pass legislation, the September 30th letter did not need to specifically call for that because the GOP had already added it to their list of ransom demands. Nowhere in that September 30th letter do they suggest that they have any problem with the ransom demands of course, but they do end their letter with a call for a budget that "promotes human life" which appears to be a coded thank you to the GOP for including the anti-choice poison pill.
rug
(82,333 posts)You're squeezing into a suit that doesn't fit.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The words "must pass" can not be ignored because those words have a very important meaning, must pass legislation results in a shutdown of the government if it does not pass. It does not matter whether they specifically used the word shutdown or not because it is a simple fact that failure to pass the bill results in a shutdown and the Bishops were no doubt aware of this fact.
rug
(82,333 posts)Unless, of course, you're more concerned about the RCC than the ACA.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Read the September 26th letter you linked to earlier because contrary to what you claimed earlier it does specifically mention the debt ceiling bill.
rug
(82,333 posts)It's inaccurate. Likely deliberately so.
You know, I hope you appreciate the damage that false diviseness causes.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Most the GOP members of Congress also insist that they don't really want a shut down they just want to negotiate. The truth is however that those GOP members of Congress who pushed the dirty resolution support a shutdown, and the bishops who also pushed for a dirty resolution that does not have the votes to pass on its own also took an action that is supportive of a shutdown.
You are the one who posted inaccurate information not me. You claimed they never mentioned the debt ceiling when your own link shows they clearly did.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Rug claims that the debt ceiling was never mentioned by the bishops but read the very first link that he posted, it goes to a letter from the Catholic bishops which specifically mentions the continued resolution and debt ceiling bill. Rug's own link proves him wrong.
rug
(82,333 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Your own link shows the bishops asking for their policy issue to be tied to the continued resolution, it is in your own link.
When failure to pass a continued resolution results in shut down and the bishops knew such a resolution would very likely result in a shut down then it is more than fair to say they supported the shutdown.
rug
(82,333 posts)That's a contorted leap of logic over imaginary assumptions that lands in a bucket labeled bullshit.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)My logic for saying the bishops support a shutdown is exactly the same as my logic for saying the teabaggers support a shutdown.
rug
(82,333 posts)That's the fundamental flaw in your assumption.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)That letter you posted is a direct example of them encouraging the Teabaggers to move forward pushing a dirty CR.
rug
(82,333 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Are you moving back from claiming they never mentioned the debt ceiling?
rug
(82,333 posts)The republicans by contrast are seeking the gutting of the ACA.
That is what they republicans are seeking in a CR. It is not what the RCC is seeking.
If there is a compromise on the ACA but not on contraception, do you think the republicans will hesitate for a second before taking it?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Maybe the Republicans are pushing more evil shit than the bishops are, but that does not make the bishops right. They have no business tying contraceptives into a must pass CR or debt ceiling bill. The church's position on contraceptives is opposed by the vast majority of the country, to try and force such a shitty law on people by tying it to a bill that must pass in order to keep the government open is total bullshit and the bishops should be called out for it.
rug
(82,333 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I did use their words when I quoted the link you provided me which proved you wrong in showing that they did in fact tie this to the debt ceiling.
I am not going to stop using the word shutdown however because my opinion is that supporting a dirty CR is supporting a shutdown. I am entitled to that opinion even if you or the Catholic Bishops wish I would put a nicer spin on it.
rug
(82,333 posts)Maybe next time you should just type a big bold OPINION in the header so people are forewarned.
I haven't seen so much earnest spinning since I went to the spider zoo.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Once I start seeing you put OPINION in all caps every time that you express an opinion then I might take you seriously, but don't think I am going to label all my opinions when you don't even do so yourself.
rug
(82,333 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Simple yes or no.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)The bishops did not call for a shutdown, and the writer of the story you quote is simply lying. At least, he is reading something into the letter that simply is not there.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Rug claimed they never mentioned the debt ceiling, this is completely false.
Pushing a dirty CR is what resulted in the shutdown and it was well known that such a thing would result in a shutdown, the bishops encouraged the Teabaggers to push a dirty CR well knowing that this could result in shutdown. The headline is accurate.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)The letter did not call for a government shutdown.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)"As Congress considers a Continuing Resolution and debt ceiling bill in the days to come, we reaffirm the vital importance of incorporating the policy of this bill into such must-pass legislation."
The letter of the 30th is just a classic Peter-imitating ("Jesus? No, never heard of the guy - is that a cock I can hear?" attempt at an alibi, "I never asked you to use a continuing resolution to hold the budget hostage, it might do something nasty to the poor, who we've jsut remembered we're meant to care about".
rug
(82,333 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)Sorry you got so badly burnt in the sub-thread above. It must hurt.
I find the Gospels a good source for pointing out the failings of the Roman Catholic bishops. In this case, comparing the current lot to the very first one, supposedly. If you think we're discussing political science, will you join me in calling for the removal of all religious tax advantages for the RC church in the USA, for blatantly interfering in politics?
rug
(82,333 posts)I must decline your invitation because, were I to join you, your misunderstanding of the American IRC might wear off.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)And you still have not answered my question.
Did they or did they not ask for their policy on contraceptives to be tied to the debt ceiling?
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Which, for some unknown reason, you assume means "shut the government down". Did you read the letter? it says NOTHING about shutting the government down.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)eh?
rug
(82,333 posts)To the extent that its tax exempt status is relevant, the letter it did write is within the IRC.
Eh?
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)That letter is a farce and clearly represents the neuroses of sex-obsessed old men*, but it doesn't call for a shutdown.
*I'm paraphrasing the pope in his recent interview with the Jesuit magazine in Rome (and quoting myself).
rug
(82,333 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)to legislation that is required for the stability of the economy, government aid to the poor, etc.
There is that "fair" enough for you, the fact that you defend these atrocious, amoral...no scratch that, it doesn't surprise me, it just depresses me, you value your church more than the lives and livelihood of other people, its just....I have no more words.
rug
(82,333 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)But they have to know that what they are asking for can, ultimately, shut the government down. It is just one more ultimatum in a crisis chock-full of them.
Both O'Malley and Lori should be fully aware of the consequences of any kind of shutdown to the average American -- who is rapidly becoming the average **poor** American. But everybody wants their own pony here, and for the Church, this is it.
And if the hierarchy gets involved to this degree in political policy formation -- time once more to reassess the tax-exempt status.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)I dream of the day we have a President who tell them to fuck off.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Mark Meadows (R-NC) is the Architect of the current shutdown plan
Article here: http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/27/politics/house-tea-party/
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Peregrine Took
(7,417 posts)Francis - not relevant to them.
Sanity Claws
(21,852 posts)This is hardly consistent with the new Pope's message. Sending this to the Pope may have greater results than sending this to the IRS.
indepat
(20,899 posts)Catholic Church in the United States and any other church that likewise foments rebellion against the United States. Fugg 'em, fugg 'em, fugg 'em all, the long and short and the tall who incite rebellion against the United States.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Your comment is meaningless.
Saying "We think this piece of legislation must be passed" -- which is what they said -- comes under the First Amendment's "petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Or do you believe in First Amendment rights only when you agree with what is being said?
indepat
(20,899 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Did you read the letter?
Incidentally, I am no supporter whatsoever of the bishops' stand. In http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1221&pid=1049 I have said that Pope Paul VI's encyclical on contraception, Humanae Vitae is a piece of crap, and I gave specific reasons for that view.
What I am saying in this thread is that the bishops did not call for a government shutdown, and it is only by a convoluted reading of their letter that anyone could say they did.
indepat
(20,899 posts)Zambero
(8,965 posts)The overwhelming majority of Catholics will practice birth control at some point in their lives. In the 50's and 60's most families entered churches with 4 kids or more. Not so today. Do the bishops attribute this to some sort of fertility problem visited upon their congregations?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)but women aren't allowed to shut down their own ovulation?
kydo
(2,679 posts)Because it is exactly this type of behavior that Pope Francis was addressing in a recent interview.
snip
The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The churchs pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."
bklyncowgirl
(7,960 posts)Personally I hope he is but I guess we shall see. In the meantime this is just a distraction.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)fitman
(482 posts)and he say's most Catholic women use BC. My wife and I are both Catholic and we used BC for years..we never wanted children
The church is out of step..
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Thank you for standing firm...please proceed, PBO.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)And while the headline to the Think Progress story may be a bit overblown, the subtext is clear.
The bishops know full well that what they are asking for will be part of a government shutdown as they want to make the ban on contraceptives in ACA part of the "must-pass" legislation.
My simple take from all of this: Unless Catholic businesses, as a rule, employ only Catholic workers, then they have to follow the law like everyone else. They also must realize that there are many other reasons for taking contraceptives other than the obvious one.
But ANY reading of this letter shows that there is a disregard on the part of the bishops of the consequences of what they're asking. Sin or omission or commission? It's been awhile since my catechism.
Cha
(297,655 posts)my government.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)Their ancient beliefs are completely irrelevant in modern society.