What does everyone think of the following quote?

[salvorhardin]

“Cancel all student loan debt? But that would be unfair to all those people who struggled for years to pay back their student loans!”

Let me assure the reader that, as someone who struggled for years to pay back his student loans and finally did so, this argument makes about as much sense as saying it would be “unfair” to a mugging victim not to mug their neighbors too.

It's from very near the end (p. 509 in my Kindle edition) of David Graeber's Debt: The First 5000 Years.

[brewens]

1. I'd go along with that but it would piss me off that were were letting some people off the hook.

Idiots that just partied and wasted their loan money getting off would suck. Still, the overall good it might do is worth lookng at.

[Iggo]

2. Makes about as much sense as...

...when people were saying we shouldn't bring the troops home because that would mean that the ones who had already died...well their lives would have been wasted.

You reach a point where you just gotta say, "Enough! It ends here!"

[Nye Bevan]

3. Is anybody seriously proposing this? (nt)

[salvorhardin]

4. A few people

See http://signon.org/sign/want-a-real-economic.fb1?source=s.fb&r_by=806487

Graeber goes on a few pages later in the book to recommend a Biblical-style Jubilee -- total debt forgiveness for both consumer and international debt. It's the only recommendation he makes in the whole book.

[customerserviceguy]

8. No matter who's proposing this

it's going nowhere.

[salvorhardin]

11. That's not really the point of this post

I was asking what you thought of the idea, not whether it might be a reality.

[customerserviceguy]

13. Since you asked

I find it a poor comparison.

On one hand, we have people who have been mugged, presumably without consent. On the other, we have people who said, "Yes, if you let me borrow that money for what might be potentially a worthless education that will not earn me any money, I will pay it back."

I guess I just don't make the connection that the author of the quote had no trouble making.

[intheflow]

18. I got a graduate degree that should have earned me a good income.

Then I had a nervous breakdown because of the work I was doing with that degree. Now I owe upwards of $100k when the education itself cost me $60 because I haven't been able to find gainful employment since. (I'm currently making about $14k/year.) I do not consider my education worthless. I do consider the exemption from filing bankruptcy because my only debt is student loans to be Congressional collusion with predatory lending practices. I've been mugged, all right - by my government and the banks.

[customerserviceguy]

19. Did you not agree to pay that money back?

If you were disabled, then you would have Social Security Disability which would not be attachable by creditors, including student loan debt holders.

You never did say what the subject of the education was, I'm curious about that. I am sorry that it didn't work out for you, and perhaps there should be some sort of disability exclusion from paying back a student loan. However, making poor choices that don't work out for an individual doesn't sound to me like it fits.

[patrice]

5. Yep. And no one should get scholarships either, merit or need based, because that would be unfair to

all of those who don't get scholarships.

[patrice]

6. All tax breaks should end too, because that's unfair to anyone not receiving a tax break.

[patrice]

7. There should be no sales at less than full retail price, because that would be unfair to the persons

not receiving the sale price.

[patrice]

9. Houses should not appreciate in value, because that would be unfair to later buyers.

[Nye Bevan]

10. Surely selling your house at more than a 5-10% profit constitutes "price gouging"? (nt)

[unkachuck]

12. I've never been to college....

....and I'm a long way from a student loan, but I agree wholeheartedly that we as a nation should forgive all student loan debt, sooner the better....

....it would free up the energy and wealth of our young people to build our nations' future....it would be a tremendous stimulus to our economy and we would reap the benefits for decades to come....

....unfair?....what isn't unfair?

[customerserviceguy]

14. No consequences whatever?

Not even a lousy credit rating, the kind you'd get if you defaulted on a credit card?

I take the opposite view, I don't think anybody should get a student loan unless they can present a written statement as to how their chosen course of education is going to enable them to pay that loan back. It's going to be relatively easy with nursing, relatively hard with English literature.

If student loans were made with half the justification for a Small Business Administration direct loan, we'd see a lot fewer of them, and a lot more being paid back.

[unkachuck]

17. I look at....

....student loan debt like I look at the Greek debt crisis....something was wrongly privatized that should have been public....if we were serious about education and our nations' future, education should be free (commensurate with scholastic achievement) and the affluent should be taxed to pay for it....

....how is it beneficial to our nation and future to condemn a generation to repaying wall-streets' over-inflated loans that they had little choice in making; while many in todays' economy with college degrees, can only find employment at Burger King?

....instead of sending their money to the 1%, I'd rather see millions of new housing starts....

[customerserviceguy]

20. Then people who want a "free" education need to find ways to get one

We already offer education tax credits, which can be used at public colleges that are heavily taxpayer-subsidized. If you come from a working class family, you can often qualify for further grants. Get a taxpayer-subsidized student job on or near the campus, and you can have an education that you can afford. If it's for a vocational skill at a community college, there's a reasonably good chance that you'll find the employment necessary to pay back what little you might have to borrow.

Borrowing many tens of thousands of dollars to pay for a private university education that has few, if any, realistic chances of producing an income sufficient to pay for the service on that debt, then running out on it just because the plan didn't work out is something the taxpayers got tired of a few years ago, so they changed the rules. Sorry if that feels like Greece to you, but the American public got tired of being fleeced by the higher education industry.

[white_wolf]

23. What about those who take out loans to go to public universites?

It happens a lot more than you think. People should never have to take loans to go to a public university when we are spending billions to kill people around the world. As to the the moral argument of "you promised to pay it back" well I really don't care about the feelings of bankers, the scum who crashed the world economy and stuck the poor people with the bill. Fuck them and moralisms.

[customerserviceguy]

29. And your feeling about the need to pay back student loans

has inspired the banksters who own Congress to change the law to make it really, really hard to get out of them.

How do you feel about paybacks of student loans when the Federal government is the direct lender, and not just the guarantor for the bankster who still gets his money from the taxpayers? Aren't the students who wiggle out of those loans screwing us all?

[white_wolf]

31. I don't think student loans should exist,period.

University education should be free to all. If we have to tax the rich higher to do that, then that's fine with me. Those parasites on top don't create any wealth anyway, they merely steal it from the working class and call it hard work.

[customerserviceguy]

33. Yes, a lot of us feel that way

But if it were truly free, it would be very restricted, generally only to provide educations for which a country feels a need. We wouldn't have as many English lit majors, for instance.

Of course, given that it is not that way, and we have student loans that people agree to pay to pursue whatever course of study they desire, you still support stiffing the lender, even if it is the taxpayer? What other loans do you feel that anyone should be able to repudiate without consequences?

[Selatius]

27. I actually favor making university education free, conditional on very high standards.

College education in France, for instance, is nearly free for most people, and the poorest are usually subsidized all the way through, yet unlike the United States, entrance exams are truly stringent and hard to meet. Many fail to pass the entrance exam, but the state offers vocational or trade school training as an alternative for students who don't make it. That is what is seen as fair, and I generally agree.

It's still a win-win situation though. Yeah, quite a few of the students would wash out under such a situation, and that's fine, but if they learn a trade or a technical skill, they still add value to society and the economy. Our economy needs engineers, machinists, mechanics, electricians, architects, etc. on top of teachers, doctors, lawyers, and so on.

[customerserviceguy]

30. I can understand that

Only the truly motivated get in, and get to stay in. Vocational education is not a bad thing, there are loads of liberal arts majors out there who would make a lot more money if they went to tech school rather than study things that have zero economic value.

[saras]

15. It's also unfair to all our ancestors who didn't have college to go to

Their notion of "fair" is that no one escapes suffering, no matter what. Except them.

[Incitatus]

16. Tradition is no excuse to continue the status quo

The recipients usually end up paying far more in taxes the they would have without.

[white_wolf]

21. Student loans should not even exist.

You should not have to take out student loans to go to a public university, not when we are spending billions on wars that have killed countless innocent people. So yes, let's abolish student loan debt. As to the whole "didn't you agree to pay it back" argument it holds no merit. Most of the loans came from banks, I'm sure, and those same banks took billions in taxpayer money after crashing the economy, so to hell with the banks.

[jwirr]

24. I paid mine back but that was in the days when the interest was 3% and the payment was $30 a

month. I am highly in favor of making it more reasonable to go do college. We are in a recession/depression that is making it hard to get jobs even with a good education. It is time we stop kicking them when they are down.

[Orrex]

25. A good first step would be to cancel all student loan interest and penalties

I took out a total of $19K in loans and payed off about $4,000, before longterm financial hardship made it impossible for me to continue.

I now owe $30,000, thanks to exorbitant penalties and interest.


Why are student loans permitted to accrue interest anyway? Loan interest is intended to offset the risk of default, but since you can't escape student loan debt, there's no actual default risk. Sure, the victim might temporarily be able to delay repayment, but short of expatriation, full and permanent disability, or death, there's no way to escape.

[Orrex]

26. Additionally, lenders should be required to provide an amortization schedule

And colleges should be forbidden to embellish the employability and earning potential of degrees that frankly aren't worth the cost of tuition.

[DLC_equals_GOP]

28. 100% For it

as long as my mortgage get paid off instead.

I never had debt for school, I worked full time and paid as I went, I took a mortgage instead.

All higher education in America needs to be free or very low cost but as long as a buck can be made off of it the PTB will look for ways to make money off of what should be a right for all Americans, free education at all levels.

[me b zola]

32. I believe they should be forgiven

And I also think that any mortgage holder (bank/mortgage co) that cannot produce the origional promisary note within 30 days should lose all claim to the home and the buyers should then own their home outright.

But that would be fair.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

34. why don't we just forgive all debt...

i mean, why is one type of debt better or worse than another? we (as a society) have conned everyone into believing they HAVE to go to college, simply MUST have that big-ass house in the suburbs and the land-yacht to get you back and forth to band practice, you GOTTA use your credit card to get that big screen TV because waiting til you saved enough is passe'...

sP