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How come Robert Byrd could stand on the floor in a REAL filibuster against a war vote and the media (Original Post) rainy Sep 2013 OP
Not only that, but Byrd was ridiculed theHandpuppet Sep 2013 #1
It's important to remember. nt Democracyinkind Sep 2013 #2
yep reddread Sep 2013 #7
Support meant continuing the Filibuster NOT Voting against the war happyslug Sep 2013 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author Tanuki Sep 2013 #26
True shenmue Sep 2013 #3
Byrd was advocating something on the Not Approved list. n/t winter is coming Sep 2013 #4
Byrd also stood on the floor for a REAL filibuster against Dr Hobbitstein Sep 2013 #5
You the type of person is why the Right ends up running this country. happyslug Sep 2013 #24
Excellent post. Dr. Hobbitstein's post could have come verbatim from a right wing Tanuki Sep 2013 #28
Byrd Robbins Sep 2013 #30
Yes, the right is ruining this country because I vote for Democrats... Dr Hobbitstein Sep 2013 #31
The NAACP doesn't think so. Uncle Joe Sep 2013 #35
I still do not like the man... Dr Hobbitstein Sep 2013 #37
Describe to me "all the coverage" brooklynite Sep 2013 #6
No erpowers Sep 2013 #10
It was also on CBS This Morning today deutsey Sep 2013 #11
Because, its Trash TV under the Guise of News. cynzke Sep 2013 #19
Local news in my city covered it a lot. rainy Sep 2013 #25
Byrd was against their illegal invation of Iraq malaise Sep 2013 #8
Wendy Davis got a lot of press (nt) bigwillq Sep 2013 #9
military mtasselin Sep 2013 #12
And JFK sought to rein in the MIC. On Oct 31, 1963, he held a press conference in which he AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2013 #15
Assassins do not wait for an anniversary to do their job. happyslug Sep 2013 #29
Actually, they do whatever they want. AnotherMcIntosh Sep 2013 #33
If the media is determined to cover this asshat, is it too much to ask BlueStreak Sep 2013 #13
Byrd was holding a copy of the Constitution at the time, as always. Orrex Sep 2013 #14
Im peed Cryptoad Sep 2013 #16
The Revolution will not be televised harun Sep 2013 #17
How else do you create illusions that the right has relevance? nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #18
no kidding reddread Sep 2013 #23
I agree, however G_j Sep 2013 #21
Because the media blows the Republican party n/t mindwalker_i Sep 2013 #22
Because the media are a**holes...nt joeybee12 Sep 2013 #27
Believe it or not, this administration doesn't hunt the press or manipulate the media the way Skidmore Sep 2013 #32
because Byrd wasn't a corporate asshole whore gopiscrap Sep 2013 #34
Liberal media, you know. Enthusiast Sep 2013 #36
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
20. Support meant continuing the Filibuster NOT Voting against the war
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 10:33 AM
Sep 2013

Remember we are talking about the 2002 Senate. The resolution was going to be approved IF IT REACHED A VOTE, thus the real fight was making sure it did NOT get to a vote. This is where the Filibuster comes in. It prevents a vote. Thus if you were against the war and wanted to prevent it, you joined in on the Filibuster so the Senate never gets to vote on the issue. That was the REAL fight, not the actual vote.

Now, you must understand there are two types of Filibuster permitted under Senate Rules. First is the classic voting against closing the debate. This presently requires a vote of 60 senators, in 1964 it required 67 Senators. This is NOT the type of Filibuster we are talking about, but it is the most common type of Filibuster. It was the type of Filibuster that held up the 1964 Civil Rights Act for more then 90 days. It was rarely used for it meant the Senate did NOTHING but debate that subject and the test was the vote to end Debate that only required a 2/3 vote of all Senators present, thus the Senators that wanted the Filibuster to continue had to be present to vote against ending debate. Under reforms passed in the early 1970s it requires only 60 votes to end debate, but the Senate can go on to other business rather just stay on what was being filibustered.

The second type of Filibuster is when a Senator has the floor and continues to speak. Under Senate Rules he has the right to continue to speak forever, but once he stops speaking he or she gives up the floor and the Senate can go onto other business including a vote to end debate.

Now, a Senator, who has the floor, can yield the floor to another Senator for a few minutes and then take it back. This is the type of Filibuster we are talking about today. This is the Type Senator Byrd did for 14 hours at the end of the 1964 Filibuster (Yes Byrd did a Filibuster during a Filibuster, i.e. he took the floor and held it for 14 hours before yielding it, at the end of the 90 plus day Filibuster of more then 1/3 of all Senators voting NOT to end debate).

The real vote on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was to vote to end debate. (Remember the first type of filibuster is a vote AGAINST such a closing of the debate). 71 Senators finally voted to end Debate (73 Senators later voted for the bill, but by then all you needed was 51 votes so the two who switched between the two did it for their own Political reasons, for by then they vote meant nothing).

I went into the above, for the real vote in 2002 was NOT the vote for the War, but refusing to help out Byrd in his filibuster. Another Senator could have ask for some time, and continue the "debate" while Byrd got eight hours of sleep right in the Senate (it has been done before). No one took up Byrd's fight and thus we ended up with the vote for the war. The Filibuster was the real fight, not the vote for or against the war. That is where Byrd needed to be supported, not in a meaningless vote against the was resolution that was going to pass anyway.

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Civil_Rights_Filibuster_Ended.htm

Response to happyslug (Reply #20)

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
5. Byrd also stood on the floor for a REAL filibuster against
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 08:00 AM
Sep 2013

the Civil Rights Act. Media was all over that one.
He may be on the left on some things, but the man was a racist fuck and gets ZERO respect from me.
He was still dropping the N-word in the early 2000s, and shortly before he died, he implied that racism
was dead and that we "talk about race too much" in our "post-racist" society.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
24. You the type of person is why the Right ends up running this country.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 12:22 PM
Sep 2013

The biggest problem with the left is the refusal to look for allies. Our Government is built on coalitions NOT idealistic left and right wing politics. The Democratic Coalition of the New Deal started to be formed in 1896. It took 40 years to take power for it took 40 years for the members of that Coalition to learn they HAD to work together. The New Deal Coalition combined the Solid South (Segregationist to the core, but also rural progressive farmers who wanted Government control of the Banks) with inner city labor (Who wanted Government Control of Corporations AND protection of Labor from Corporations), inner city African Americans (Who wanted work and an end to racism). That was a mix, but it worked, for out of that Mix we ended up with the New Deal, the first efforts of Civil Rights under FDR and Truman (and later the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which also started the break up of the Coalition), aid to inner cities starting with FDR and reaching its peak under Johnson, assistance to farmers, paving of rural roads, and extensive controls over the banks of the US.

At times the Coalition did not like each other, but as a whole they wanted certain things done and stayed together (and avoided issues that divided them) till those things were done. The build up took a biblical generation, but once in place it rolled over the GOP. The US turned so Democratic that from 1930-1994 the House was Democratic except for the Congress elected in 1946 (serving from January 3, 1947 till January 3, 1949). The Senate would stay Democratic form 1930-1981 except for the election of 1952 (The Senate was GOP controlled from January 3, 1953 till January 3rd 1955). You had very few filibusters during this time periods for Democrats had almost 60 seats by themselves after most elections (the GOP thought it was a huge victory when the held 45 out of 96 late 100 seats of the US Senate).

Now, that coalition is dead. The GOP started to kill it with the Taft-Hartley Act. The Red Scare in the US was more an attack on Labor then Communists (And one side affect was the most effective labor organizers were driven out of most unions do to most of them being left wingers and thus accused of being Communists in the 1940s, 1950s and into the 1960s).

The GOP has always favored individual rights, for they know if you do NOT have income those rights are meaningless. Thus a higher percentage of more GOP members of congress voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 then did the percentage of Democratic members. Many of those same members of both parties voted AGAINST repeal of the Taft-Hartley Act (and one of the reason Labor did not support McGovern in 1972, he had voted AGAINST repealing Taft-Hartley Act).

Then the GOP went after recruiting white Southerns (The GOP is NOT against asking for support from a group it finds discussing, if it means votes). They did this by stressing how the 1964 Civil Rights Act "Favored" African-Americans over whites (The GOP cared less if the accusation was false, for like calling any and all Labor Communists the key was if the accusation was effective not if it was true or false).

On top of this, the GOP managed to convince Wall Street that it could undo the Regulations imposed on Wall Street by the New Deal. To this claim, something Wall Street wanted more then anything else, provide the money the GOP needed to implement its other ways to break up the Democratic Coalition. Vietnam showed that the American People are more forgiving of a Hawk that was wrong then a Dove who was right, thus the GOP turned increasingly hawkish. The Spread of Suburbia tended to break up the old neighborhood ties of both Rural America and Inner City America, weakening the hold that older generations tended to have over younger generations, thus permitting recruitment of more young people into the GOP (We are talking of the 1970-2000 period here). The GOP even made sure what was presented to most students in High School where more pro-GOP position then pro-Democratic positions (For example Labor History was ignored unless it was violent and then blamed on Labor, the same with Race, ignored, unless it involved violence and could be blamed on African Americans, since most such violence could NOT be blamed on African Americans just ignored for the GOP conceded the African America Population to the Democratic Party in exchange for Southern White Voters).

This was the Situation where the Democratic Party slowly lost its huge advantage in voting starting with Nixon, accelerating with Reagan and taking control of Congress AND the Presidency under Bush II.

The Democratic response has been pathetic. It reminds me of the decline of various empires as they are falling. The Leadership is more worried about who is in control of their declining state then opposing any invaders. They work out deals with the invaders against they own people, in efforts to stay in power. Given a choice between defeating an invader AND suppression of revolt of the people, it is the later they go after every time. This happened at the Fall of the Roman Empire, The fall of the Mongol Empire in China, the Fall of the German Empire in 1918 and even the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989 (Through in the last name decline, the Army refused to put down the people, thus accelerated the fall of the Soviet Union).

I see the same problems within the Democratic Party. A refusal to work with like mined people on the grounds they are NOT 100% in agreement with the people in charge. Worse, I have seen people attack potential allies for not being 100% perfect then look upon them as possible coalition members. This brings me back to Byrd

Senator Byrd was a product of his place of birth (West Virginia) and had all the good and bad from being born and raised in West Virginia. He was pro-labor (and pro-Coal). He was also pro environment, but at the same time pro-coal (Yes that could be an inherent conflict but one he could work around). If you read about the attempts to unionize coal miners from WWI into the 1930s you will find out that one of the first steps Coal miner owners did was to recruit southern African Americans to work mines, where the mines had tried to form a union and had gone on strike (After 1912 immigration from Europe came to an end as Europe slowly worked its way up to WWI, it would resume in 1919, but then stop in 1924 with immigration restrictions). Due to a lack of immigrates wages went up in the 1910s, which provided labor some cushion so that workers could risk a strike. To undo these wage increases AND to replace the striking workers Mine owners turned to the South after 1912. Now racism among miners was known before this time period (for it was wide spread even in the US) but it increased rapidly as miners saw these African Americans as Scabs and strike breakers (Most of the African Americans did not know they were going to a mine with labor problems, all they were told was it was a job with high wages for them).

Rural Western Pennsylvania is similar to West Virginia, it has a long history of coal mining and the memories of these 1920s strikes are now long forgotten, but the hatred of African Americans for what was perceived such African Americans did to the Strikers during those strikes is alive and well in the Great Grand Children of those Strikers is alive and well (Through the cause of the hatred, the Strikes are long forgotten for even in West Virginia they are NOT talked about, I went to school where a shoot out occurred in 1928, but it was NOT even MENTIONED).

Anyway, the miners of West Virginia and my home area of Western Pennsylvania became more and more anti-African American for they came to see African Americans as strike breakers and Scabs. With Unionization in the 1930s this tended to lessen, but those strikes of the 1920s were just plan mean (The old joke was "It was a peaceful mining strike, you could count the dead miners on two hands&quot . Byrd came of age in this period, the memories of the 1920s strikes were still fresh, what the mine owners did was still fresh and that African Americans were viewed as tools of evil mine owners were still widely held. Sorry, it would be almost impossible NOT to be a racist coming from such a back ground. That Byrd later came to support those same law and to expand them is a sign of someone who was capable of growing, something a person with a close mine can not.

In 1964 West Virginia was NOT about to support the Civil Rights Act. The state would only pass its own do to the 1964 Federal Civil Rights Act, which included a provision that it would have to defer to a similar state agency with similar powers (i.e. West Virginia passed its Civil Rights Act so that it could enforce the 1964 Civil Rights Acts instead of the 1964 Civil Rights Acts being enforced by the Federal Government).

Now, as West Virginia put its racism behind it, so did Byrd. In many ways he was more progressive then West Virginia was a whole when it came to race, for his position changed as times changed:

For the 2003–2004 session, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP)[59] rated Byrd's voting record as being 100 percent in line with the NAACP's position on the 33 Senate bills they evaluated. 16 other senators received that rating. In June 2005, Byrd proposed an additional $10 million in federal funding for the Martin Luther King, Jr. National Memorial in Washington, D.C., remarking that, "With the passage of time, we have come to learn that his Dream was the American Dream, and few ever expressed it more eloquently

AS to his use of "White N------" in 2001, I grew up with people who used that term, that term was NEVER a term used against an African American and African Americans who heard its use never took it as an attack on them, but an attack on the white man it was directed at. I knew several men of Byrd's generation who used that term and NEVER used the term "N-----" by itself. They thought the later term an insult against all African Americans while the term used by Byrd was an attack on people who were low down untrustworthy no accounts who also happen to be white. Like his KKK and his vote against the 1964 Civil Rights Act a reflection of his background not his internal beliefs. That is shown by the support the NAACP gave Byrd in the 1990s till his death.

Yes, this is a long dissertation, but I go into it for the left needs to be united NOT divided. The Left has to look at its CORE and look to allies to help it achieve those core improvements to society. Your attack on Byrd clearly shows you prefer the IMAGE of racial tolerance, instead of its reality. You prefer African Americans have the right to be President along with the right to starve, as opposed to making sure all Americans have access to food and housing.

We on the left have to look at the good In people and how they can help achieve a better society, instead of looking at their faults. If we on the Left do not do that, we will fail for without support of the people who voted for Byrd we can NOT achieve power and without power the left can do nothing. Most of the people who voted for Byrd supported what he stood for and as a whole that was more left wing then right wing. Remember Ben Franklin's comment "United we prevail, divided we are defeated" that was directed at the coalition that wanted Independence, but it is true of any coalition we have to take the bad with the good to achieve the good. As the old pray goes "Lord, Give me the Strength to change the things I can, the endurance to accept the things I can NOT and the wisdom to know the difference". In many ways that pray sums up any coalition, staying together to achieve what is achievable not fighting each other over some perfect situation. The same with people, look at how they can help the left achieve its goals, not for the perfect lefty.

Tanuki

(14,918 posts)
28. Excellent post. Dr. Hobbitstein's post could have come verbatim from a right wing
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 12:39 PM
Sep 2013

website. I have seen all of his talking points thrown at Byrd from the right on numerous occasions, very much the same way they always dredged up regrettable incidents from the earlier life of Ted Kennedy to try to discredit anything positive he ever did. Byrd is someone who grew and evolved over the years and became a better person. It happens.

Robbins

(5,066 posts)
30. Byrd
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 01:17 PM
Sep 2013

He started out what you may think of as old time Southern democrat against Civil rights.Yeah he tried to fillerbuster the civil rights act.
But he didn't do like Strom Thurmond and others did and quit party and become a republican.He remained democrat till the day he died.

As he grow older he changed.Sometimes people can get better as they get older.Byrd became the democratic leader In the senate.

when he moved the Clinton Impeachment trial Ins enate be dismissed we knew then Clinton would not be removed from office.

Byrd never bought Bush's BS On Iraq.Both he and Ted Kennedy opposed It.Yeah there were some democrats smart enough to vote
against It.

He became a nemesis to Bush.I firmly believe he may have retired In 2006 If Bush wasn't In White house.

Byrd was trying to stop a senseless war while Cruz wants to take health care away.

Also remember Byrd after west Virginia primary endorsed Obama.

The country and party lost 2 great men when they lost him and Kennedy.Imagine If we had more dems like them willing to speak out in senate against war In Iraq.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
31. Yes, the right is ruining this country because I vote for Democrats...
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 01:48 PM
Sep 2013

Seriously, someone points out that a racist is a racist, and they get accused of being right wing? It's not my fault the guy used the N-word in 2001. It's not my fault the guy said racism was over in this country and we needed to stop talking about it.

I don't want the "perfect lefty". I'm not far left, if anything, I'm a centrist Democrat. But I call it like I see it, and that man is a racist.
You can defend him all you want. And I'm sure he did great progressive things, but he's still a racist, so fuck that guy. Paula Deen didn't get a pass for shit she said 20 years ago (and she's a Democrat as well), and I most certainly won't give Byrd a pass for shit he said 12 years ago.

Uncle Joe

(58,362 posts)
35. The NAACP doesn't think so.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 09:20 PM
Sep 2013


http://www.naacp.org/press/entry/naacp-mourns-the-passing-of-u.s.-senator-robert-byrd

WASHINGTON, DC - The NAACP is saddened by the passing of United States Senator Robert Byrd. Byrd, the longest serving member of congress was first elected to the U.S. House from in 1952 and was elected Senator in 1958. Byrd passed away this morning at the age of 92.

"Senator Byrd reflects the transformative power of this nation," stated NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous. "Senator Byrd went from being an active member of the KKK to a being a stalwart supporter of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and many other pieces of seminal legislation that advanced the civil rights and liberties of our country.

"Senator Byrd came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda, doing well on the NAACP Annual Civil Rights Report Card. He stood with us on many issues of crucial importance to our members from the reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act, the historic health care legislation of 2010 and his support for the Hate Crimes Prevention legislation," stated Hilary O. Shelton, Director of the NAACP Washington Bureau and Senior Vice President for Advocacy and Policy. "Senator Byrd was a master of the Senate Rules, and helped strategize passage of legislation that helped millions of Americans. He will be sorely missed."

Founded in 1909, the NAACP is the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization. Its members throughout the United States and the world are the premier advocates for civil rights in their communities, conducting voter mobilization and monitoring equal opportunity in the public and private sectors.





http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mahatma_gandhi.html

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Mahatma Gandhi

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
37. I still do not like the man...
Thu Sep 26, 2013, 07:03 AM
Sep 2013

Same as I don't like any of the asshole racists on the right. Nor a good portion of my family.

As I said before, this place was up in arms about Paula Dean over something that happened 20 years ago. But I call out someone who did things FAR worse, and I'm the asshole? I could care less who liked the guy. I still think he was a racist asshole.

brooklynite

(94,571 posts)
6. Describe to me "all the coverage"
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 08:09 AM
Sep 2013

The fact that 24 hour cable news channels pay attention to this to help fill the hours? How much time did the evening newscasts give it? How much space in your local paper (NY Times: page 19)?

Perhaps the fact that you're politically engaged enough to spend time at a political blog means you simply notice it more.

erpowers

(9,350 posts)
10. No
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 08:38 AM
Sep 2013

It was not just on the 24 hour news stations, or political blogs. Yesterday, the CBS Evening News did a story about the filibuster. This morning NBC's Today Show opened with the Ted Cruz filibuster and mentioned it again at the beginning of its second half hour.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
11. It was also on CBS This Morning today
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 08:47 AM
Sep 2013

I think it was the lead story...or at least the second one. It was given a lot of time by the same hack reporter who was breathlessly saying the 2012 election was "too close to call."

cynzke

(1,254 posts)
19. Because, its Trash TV under the Guise of News.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 10:32 AM
Sep 2013

The news media is a business and the more mud raking puke they generate these days, the more viewers. They are catering to their markets.

malaise

(268,998 posts)
8. Byrd was against their illegal invation of Iraq
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 08:27 AM
Sep 2013

and the corporate media and their owners were about to make a bundle.

mtasselin

(666 posts)
12. military
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 09:01 AM
Sep 2013

Can you say military industrial complex, people just don't realize how powerful this industry is. President Ike warned America of this when he left office.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
15. And JFK sought to rein in the MIC. On Oct 31, 1963, he held a press conference in which he
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 10:21 AM
Sep 2013

said that he decided to withdraw military troops from Viet Nam.

The announcement was made just a few weeks before his assignation, but his pending decision was known for months within his Administration.

By coincidence, his assignation was exactly one year from the final resolution of the Cuban Missile Crisis on November 22, 1962.
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB393/

Also by coincidence, Martin Luther King's assignation was exactly one year from the time that he gave his April 4, 1967 speech in which he publicly opposed the Viet Nam war. He was assignated, of course, on April 4, 1968.

Nothing to see here. Just move along.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
29. Assassins do not wait for an anniversary to do their job.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 01:00 PM
Sep 2013

Assassins do Assassination at the best time possible for the killing not some anniversary date.

As to JFK withdraw of US Troops, that had been done in previous years and in 1963 the withdraw was timed to be during the Dry seasons which runs from October to May. This included both Christmas the following lunar new year (Tet). After the Chinese new Year (Tet) the Advisers always went back in.

The reason for this was simple, the US had few planes in Vietnam in 1963 and the roads were bad any time of the year. Thus most transportation was done by water and other then the Mekong River tend to go dry. Thus any movement of men was restricted to how far a person could walk. The lack of water means efforts were directed to preparing the next rice crop for the wet season, thus food was even tight. Ships off shore could prevent most supplies from reaching the Viet Cong from North Vietnam during the Dry Season and due to a lack of supplies the Viet Cong tended to stand down that time of year.

http://www.vietnamembassy.org.uk/climate.html

The Viet Cong would increase their Tempo of operations with the increase in cloud cover hurt aerial surveillance (i.e. the Wet Season). This was the case even after the US intervention. The US used its Air superiority to retake territories held by the Viet Cong during the dry season, then see them fall back into Viet Cong season during the wet season when US Air Cover was neutralized by the almost constant rain.

Thus few US advisers were needed after October for the Viet Cong stood down AND if the Viet Cong did to into action, it could be handled by aircraft or even off shore ship guns (Or by sending in the tanks South VIetnam had, through most were kept in Saigon to help in any coup). When the rains returned in May then the Viet Cong would go back into action for US air Superiority had much less significance at that time of year.

The key to US intervention into Vietnam was the removal of Diem. Diem understood what type of war he was engaged with in South Vietnam and was doing the best job possible in winning that war (Even Ho Chin Mind acknowledged that). A guerrilla war is always a Political War first, and Diem did his best to win that war. He had problems with the Viet Cong, the Buddhist priests (Diem was Catholic), and the land owning class of Vietnam. Diem had to "fight" the political fight between these three groups. In American eyes he was losing, but Diem knew what respect the South Vietnam Government had among the people of South Vietnam would disappear if US troops entered the Country. Thus Diem accepted US Aid, US military Advisers but not actual US troops.

The US decided Diem was losing the war and had to go. JFK approved the removal of Diem, technically JFK wanted Diem to go into exile, but anyone who understood the situation in South Vietnam knew in any coup Diem and his brother, head of the South Vietnam Intelligence agency would be killed (Diem still had support among some units in the South Vietnam Army, thus a counter coup was possible unless Diem was dead, thus he had to die).

With the death of Diem, US had to send in US troops, for by 1963 the Viet Cong was getting stronger and it was believed the Viet Cong would be strong enough to take over the country by 1967. Diem believe he could put that growth in check, the US did not believe he could and thus he was overthrown and killed. The only person in the Executive Branch to oppose this coup was Johnson, who said "You do NOT kill a Friend" for he saw no way the coup leaders would permit Diem to live.

Thus by agreeing to the removal of Diem, JFK agreed to US troops in Vietnam, NOT just advisers but Actual combat troops. JFK may have thought otherwise (and may even thought he had NOT agreed) but in reality, the removal of Diem meant US troops had to go in or South Vietnam would fall to the Viet Cong by 1967. Johnson knew this and why he opposed the coup, but no one in JFK's administration was listening to Johnson, they all knew better.

Sorry, JFK's assassination had little if any affect on US involvement in Vietnam, that had already been set by JFK's agreement to remove Diem.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
13. If the media is determined to cover this asshat, is it too much to ask
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 09:17 AM
Sep 2013

that one of them, at some point, asks why Cruz has been talking for 16 hours and hasn't mentioned one specific thing that he would like to improve about our health care system?

Orrex

(63,212 posts)
14. Byrd was holding a copy of the Constitution at the time, as always.
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 10:01 AM
Sep 2013

Therefore his statements were irrelevant.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
16. Im peed
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 10:21 AM
Sep 2013

that Cruz is not getting more exposure........ the more he gets , the better it is for the Left.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
18. How else do you create illusions that the right has relevance?
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 10:30 AM
Sep 2013

I watched THAT FILLIBUSTER on the SPAN. And yes, I remember the real good coverage of it.

RIP Senator, there are people here still making fun of you as well and denying the obvious media bias

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
23. no kidding
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 11:29 AM
Sep 2013

as if consolidated media control plays no role in these modern times.
Lets watch what the right wing shows us, and discuss it until the cows come home.
that is the echo chamber, and quite a few people really enjoy being a part of it, no
matter how much they kvetch.

Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
32. Believe it or not, this administration doesn't hunt the press or manipulate the media the way
Wed Sep 25, 2013, 01:52 PM
Sep 2013

some like to think it does. Now Bush/Cheney and the Rove machine actively intimidated the press and decided who reported the news. They brooked no criticism of their actions or words or any reporting of events that might make them look less than spectacular. The media complied. Robert Byrd was doing just that and the media did not want to jeopardize access to power.

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