"Why The South Is More Violent Than The Rest Of America"

[applegrove]

Why The South Is More Violent Than The Rest Of America

by Erin Fuchs at Business Insider

http://www.businessinsider.com/south-has-more-violent-crime-fbi-statistics-show-2013-9

"SNIP.................................


The South accounted for 40.9% of all reported violent crimes even though it makes up roughly a quarter of the country, according to the final Uniform Crime Report for 2012.

.................

One theory is that violence in the South is simply the way folks have always settled their disputes. This "subculture of violence" theory suggests that violence is passed from generation to generation, University of Maryland Criminology Professor Gary LaFree told Business Insider.

There is some evidence that Southerners are more predisposed to violence.

One experiment published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology found Southern men were more prone to aggression as part of a "culture of honor." In the experiment, a mole bumped into participants from the North and South and called them "asshole." Southerners were more primed for aggression after the insult. That is, their testosterone levels rose. They were also more likely to actually engage in aggressive or dominant behavior after being called asshole.


................................SNIP"

[Skittles]

1. I honestly think the heat has something to with it

yes INDEED

[applegrove]

3. Well coming from Canada where we are in a cocoon for half the year I can

well understand how being outside and socializing out there all year long would lead to more trouble. Just the odds are way up in the South.

[roguevalley]

24. I also believe it is vestigle from the civil war. They lost. That rankles.

they were also able to believe no matter how low down they were, slaves were lower.

[Cleita]

31. Many athletically inclined southern boys I met when I was a teenager seemed to be going to

some kind of military school or belonged to some military thing they did after school, not to mention football, a game known for being testosterone driven. I think that aggression gets taught to the boys at an early age, something the athletically inclined boys on the West Coast don't, being they spend a lot of their free time at the beach surfing or whatever they like to do at the beach. Military training isn't something the majority of them want to do. Of course, I am talking more than fifty years ago so things may be different today.

[rl6214]

61. I ll tell you the heat makes me irritable.

Can't wait for fall weather to arrive, although here in west Texas fall only lasts about a week.

[Skittles]

111. AW SAME HERE

back in early May, I ran in o an "ambassador" from England in the work parking lot - she commented how hot it was - I said, "Darling, it's not even 90 degrees!" What was funny was on my way to work I had been thinking, "This is pretty cool for May so far!"

[2ndAmForComputers]

105. And poverty. Being poor is no help in that.

[etherealtruth]

126. Oh god, yes

... the heat is why I despise the south

[NYC_SKP]

2. "Top Gear" guys visit Alabama. "Man Love Rules" and "NASCAR sucks" written on side of vehicles.

Hilarity ensues...

I would post the whole segment if I could find it but this 60 minutes clip is pretty representative.

[rdharma]

5. Hilarious!

I saw that a few years ago. LMAO!

[liberal N proud]

104. Note to self, remove NASCAR Sucks sign from car before driving south.

[Fla_Democrat]

4. Well, there's the problem right there

Southerners were more primed for aggression after the insult.

Southerners are the only ones who think being called asshole is an insult. To Northerners.. it's so common, it's almost a term of endearment.



Remind me to tell you the difference between a Northern fairy tale and a Southern fairy tale one day.

[BlueJazz]

6. "Why The South Is More Violent Than The Rest Of America"

Absolutely correct. I live in both Southern places. South USA, South Australia.

Regarding Southern USA ?...Those "Good 'ol Boys" will kill you. Some are not very nice and not very bright.

[Eleanors38]

20. Did the OP limit the "analysis" to only one (1) race?

[TroglodyteScholar]

26. Did the poster you're replying to mention a race? n/t

[Eleanors38]

41. See upstream.

[BlueJazz]

28. Not sure what you mean but I've observed the same traits in the Female from the South, USA....

....as the Male.
People seem to mate/marry along the same line from what I've seen.

Of course, with the changing populace inhabitation rate moving around so much, these lines may be getting more blurred.
Seems like Florida is more mixed than say, Alabama.

Having said all this, I could be in error with my past observations ??
My thing is Physics...

[Eleanors38]

47. Crime rates vary as to race, income other factors, but

there is a seeming one-track mind for explaining this alleged phenomena in posts:
6
8
9
12
14
34
32
38
and others. It's as if only one culture lived in the South, counting or not Florida.

I hope this explains my posts, and why it is important in the name of better analysis to expand beyond the many cues describing white people to get at a more holistic explanation for this alleged phenomenon of regional violence.

[MNBrewer]

7. How did they determine that testosterone levels rose?

Did they conduct blood tests?

[TreasonousBastard]

8. I remember something years ago about the Scots-Irish heritage so prevalent...

down there and how the earlier immigrants who started it all came from a particularly violent era back in their home countries. Then it just continued here without any mitigating factors.

Be that as it may, the Civil War had to have had some impact on their aggressive tendencies. What it was and why it's still around is a question.

[Bigmack]

11. I believe it was in Joe Bageant's book "Deer Hunting with Jesus"...nt

[Eleanors38]

49. Great book. Recommend it to all.

[gopiscrap]

9. it's called ignorance, racism and greed

[Eleanors38]

21. So, only white folks were considered? No other races?

[TroglodyteScholar]

27. Did the poster you're replying to mention a race? n/t

[Eleanors38]

42. See upstream.

[onehandle]

10. One of the many reasons we left the South after a lifetime there. nt

[xfundy]

12. It's true.

I grew up in the South. I saw, errr, I seen it. Learned at church to hate ppl of color, learned to always trust the gubmint (that part's been amended), learned to follow truck drivers to find healthy nutritious food while on a road trip. "Truckers know nutrition!"

No, I'm not bashing Southerners who have risen out of the ashes as thinking people, but this shit still exists in the south.

[ohheckyeah]

13. As a southerner, I have to be honest -

I did not know moles can talk. IMO, a talking mole is something to get aggressive about.....they are enough of a nuisance when they don't talk.

In the experiment, a mole bumped into participants from the North and South and called them "asshole."

[Are_grits_groceries]

60. That's what I thought after my first reading.

"WTF? They gots talking moles."

[Lee-Lee]

83. A partial explanation of why I see this experiment as flawed

In my time in Philly, things like being bumped in to and called an asshole were everyday, normal things. It was kind of a shock.

Contrasted with Charlotte, where it is far less common.

People are more polite in the south. Holding doors, etc. It is just how it is. As such, being bumped in to and then cursed at is a bigger affront. Still not worthy of a violent response, but certainly a larger deviation from normal behavior than it is in some other areas.

[ohheckyeah]

85. What the experiment failed to point out

is how aggressive it is to call someone an asshole. Aggression is often met with aggression.

[Lee-Lee]

87. And that varies by region.

Regional differences make it a far more aggressive act in some places than others.

[ohheckyeah]

88. I disagree....calling a person an asshole

is aggressive no matter where it is done.

[Lee-Lee]

100. In Philly the level of profanity direct at strangers shocked me

Coming from the south. Folks there didn't see it as unusual.

[ohheckyeah]

101. Amazing what people

find acceptable.

[cali]

103. I don't know. I was shocked when I moved to VT. Politest, friendliest

people I've ever encountered. I got reshocked when I smashed up my leg. I literally couldn't go into the grocery store without multiple offers of assistance- from adults and kids including teenagers.

[Kolesar]

154. People are more polite in the south--ha ha ha

Small town people are friendlier--we got that in Ohio, too, you know
New Yorkers are aloof--that's how I remember it
But I remember being treated like crap down South. Clevelanders are way friendlier than Tennesseeans.
Moving here was a welcome change from the mill town in the Mahoning Valley.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Scott Irish border culture

Yes indeed

[rrneck]

22. No better friend in a foxhole

than a Scots Irish redneck. Assuming he considers you a friend...

[pitohui]

131. thats my excuse

and you may be joking but i actually think there's something to it, it's like the default is to smack the living you know what of out somebody and get arrested before you figure out this is not the way to solve human behavior

but i should give a shout out to rrneck too...no better friend indeed...the only thing is, sometimes i need to remind myself i am not helping said friend by starting a brawl with someone twice my size! i'm just creating awkwardness all round...

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Not joking

Not at all. We have cultural geography.

[freshwest]

15. It's not the heat, it's the humidity. It just pisses people off. JMHO.

[Retrograde]

16. And it goes way back

In one of the early volumes of Page Smith's People's History of the United States, the once covering pre-Civil War America, he mentions that visitors wrote about the contrast between graciousness and violence in the Southern states, and not just among slave holders. It permeated the culture.

[Skip Intro]

17. Well, we do have Atlanta, New Orleans, and Memphis...

but we don't have Chicago, Newark, Philly, Oakland, or Detroit.

We would link the high crime in those places to poverty and poor education, but in the Southern cities, well, we're just out to kill and maim because it's in our blood.

[Eleanors38]

25. From the responses, apparently only in good ol' boy white blood.

I guess no blacks, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Haitians live in the South, or they came from Scots-Irish ancestors, but quickly blended such that even DUers can't see them.

[TroglodyteScholar]

29. Did the poster you're replying to mention a race? n/t

[Eleanors38]

35. No. just looking at the Scots-Irish,.Good ol' Boy, NASCAR, etc. references...

and wondered if the study, these responses, or both implied something more homogeneous and limited.

[Hoyt]

33. That junk is getting old, Eleanor's 38 5 shooter. Please

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

34. This thread is just another episode of white southerners

blaming their problems on minorities.

[Hoyt]

36. It's disgusting. I live in the middle of it, but have learned to survive.

[seveneyes]

44. Did the poster you're replying to mention a race? n/t

[Eleanors38]

40. Point on question for all these fans of the South and its white-washed culture.

I will pursue these questions, Hoyt, to cut through the grossest stereotypes and crap studies. What do you think? Is the South's "violent culture" due exclusuvely to Scots-Irish, Appalachian, NASCAR-loving, good ol'boy "honor?" Or is this thread just another way to let out some socially-acceptable hatred of whole swaths of people? Both?

Your thoughts?

[jeff47]

73. So people pointing out the South was settled by predominantly Scots-Irish

somehow makes them racist?

Does pointing out the sky is blue make people misogynist?

Does saying the sun rises in the east make them racist for or against Asians?

[Eleanors38]

79. Getting past the silliness, the OP dealt with some out-sized violent Southern culture...

Yet the indicators or "proof" for this proposition seem exclusively embedded in various white Southern cultures. Many of the responses in this thread are focussed on white symbols and cues.

Missing? The unique contributions to this "violent South" by various black and Hispanic cultures, as if these cultures did not exist. Put another way, a hypothesis of regional violence was made using information suggesting only white cultures influenced this violent region. This prima facie makes the study suspect, and calls into question the motivation for it. It's like discussing Rock & Roll's major contrubutors and mentioning only Hank Williams, Bill Haley, Elvis, and Wanda Jackson, and leaving out Chuck Berry, Thornton, Diddley, and Little Richard.

Is this clear enough?

[jeff47]

120. Discussion of one group doesn't mean that group is entirely to blame.

The discussion:
-The Scots-Irish settled the south.
-Historically, the Scots-Irish is a more violent culture than other groups

You: You are blaming all violence in the south on the whites!

No, the ancestry of the whites is one element of Southern culture. Discussing that is not the same as blaming them for all Southern violence.

[Eleanors38]

124. Again, this contention is crippled by citing only white cultural phenomena

as an explanation for allegedly high crime in the South. This is patently obvious. And the response in this thread falls into the well-worn ruts of acceptable explanation of social problems (crime) in the South. To ignore the other cultural/historical causes of this out-sized Southern problem is to drive about in a 4-wheel car with a tire missing, and depend on specious logic to explain the crappy ride.

I'll ask you: Do you think the African-American, Haitian, PR and even a horde of white "Midnight Cowboys" who have move into the region have had a significant bearing on the crime rates in the South? If so, don't you think they are worth discussing when considering the larger hypothesis that crime is more prevalent in the South?

[Skip Intro]

118. Yes, that is a given for many here, it seems.

It's the evil white males to blame. You see the same thing in the gun debates here. The focus is always on white men with guns, almost never on what is the vast cause of gun crime in reality - inner city black on black, usually drug and/or gang-related. My guess is that truth is rarely spoken here because no one wants to even possibly be seen as saying something that someone else could twist into being "racist." Of course, that concern is tossed out the window when it comes to vilifying whites.

[Eleanors38]

121. Precisely. Charges of racism are standard fare with many "liberals."

[Brainstormy]

76. thank you

I was going there, but you got there first, and said it better.

[bluesbassman]

18. Hmm, does that include all of the south, like South Central, South Side, South Bronx?

I have a feeling if the article had focused on those areas and came up with similar conclusions people would be pitching a fit at the notion that residents of those areas were "predisposed to violence".

Personally I don't have a stake in this living in NorCal, but I find the notion of predisposion to violence to be a very lazy conclusion on the part of the author.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. May I recommend a book?

http://www.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0143122029

Of course any thing written by Bageant might help too.

[bluesbassman]

39. Look, I have no problem with examining cultural and socioeconomic regional differences.

Where I believe one traverses a slippery slope is when one promotes "predisposition", and especially when one applies it to entire groups.

But thanks for the recommendation, I'll put it on my reading list.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. In academic circles

It's known the US is Balkanized. It's a pretty damn good book. It's the more comprehensive on this in popular form.

[Throd]

74. When in NorCal, avoid South Sac.

[Uncle Joe]

19. It seems from the report that hot weather and poverty may be the predominant dynamics.

Hot Weather Leads To Hot Tempers

The summer months have been linked to crime waves in America, as the balmy weather encourages young people to hit the streets. Recently, an empirical study found that extreme temperatures do in fact lead to violence, speculating that hot temperatures made people more aggressive.

In the South, people are coping with hot temperatures, extreme poverty, and a so-called culture of honor. Maybe it shouldn't be that surprising that it's more violent than the rest of the country

The most violent city isn't in the South, though. How Flint, Michigan Became The Most Dangerous City In America »

To my knowledge Flint, Michigan doesn't suffer from the so called "culture of honor."

Edit for P.S. Global warming may help the North catch up.

Thanks for the thread, applegrove.

[coldmountain]

48. So why then does the American South have higher murder rate than India?

[Uncle Joe]

98. No doubt because U.S. citizens have many more guns than Indians.

[Eleanors38]

51. That "sultry heat science" had been proffered & debunked

many times over generations of history.

[Uncle Joe]

99. Do you have a link to the debunking because that doesn't square with the OP?

[Eleanors38]

123. My hand-held doesn't reliably link, but here is a Google

search from: hot weather linked to crime.

The first page of results has 2 sources of interest.
1) PDF "Warm weather and crime UBC Dept. of Geog." A collection/summation of research wherein the conclusion finds strong theortical plausability, but indicates research controls are lacking. Strongest indicators of association are with some violent crime over transient, short-term periods. Many variables unaccounted for even here.

2) "hot weather linked to crime." Warm weather possible factor in violent crime surge. News10.
Again, the evidence shows a transient link to transient temp fluctuations, not a long-term relationship. Acknowledges the century-old debate about climate v. crime.

There seems a lack of sound research showing long-term trends in climate factors which can be separated out from traditional causal links to crime: poverty, education, family factors etc.

I hope this helps.

[Rex]

23. SO where does that other 60% of all violent crime happen?

[maddezmom]

67. See this link for a better breakdown

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3700401

[polichick]

32. Guess that explains all those good ol' boys just spoiling for a fight!

Not kidding - I've lived in several southern states and several northern states, and you don't call someone an asshole in the south if you aren't willing to get your butt kicked.

[Art_from_Ark]

37. And yet, of the 25 most dangerous cities in the US as ranked by the FBI,

only 7 are in the South (8 if you count Baltimore). The Worst Two are both in Michigan, Connecticut and Ohio each have 3 in the Top 25, and California and Missouri each have 2 in the Top 25.

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dangerous-cities-in-america-2013-6#1-flint-mich-25

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

38. I recall the first time I drove through the South

and seeing all the "Mercinary" military magazines in the store racks. They were not in California where I grew up. My Aunt had an abusive husband from the South. A lifer in the Air Force. I believe his two sons did their 20 years too, Army.

[Art_from_Ark]

45. I can name a few places in California that are pretty creepy

East Los Angeles, Compton, Inglewood, Long Beach, San Bernardino, South San Francisco, Richmond, Oakland, Stockton...

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

53. I was only 4 or 5 when I lived in Compton

mostly grew up in the Antelope Valley, then S.F. and San Luis Obispo... Guess I missed South San Francisco, I did a lot of South of Market...

[Art_from_Ark]

54. I once went to a job interview in Compton

The interviewer basically told me that if I valued my safety, I should probably look elsewhere for employment.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

58. Ouch. Guess it was a good thing to warn you

My dad delivered bananas from ships or warehouse to stores, someone wanted to unionize and he quit. He bought out a guys Ice Delivery Route, but that didn't last long and we moved back to AV.

[KamaAina]

89. South San Francisco is a separate city

if you've ever come into SF from SFO, you've seen it. There's a giant Hollywood-style sign above 101 that reads "South San Francisco, The Industrial City". I'm not quite sure how it got on the list with Compton, Richmond, etc.

[Art_from_Ark]

146. There was lots of gang activity in South San Francisco

when I had my biggest exposure to it in the '80s.

Although, it does look like that there has been a concerted effort recently to bust up the worst gangs.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-law/petaluma-raid-part-massive-operation-targeting-sou/nNQwT/

[KamaAina]

90. By no means all of Oakland is creepy.

There are million-dollar homes in the Oakland hills, and houses in the Rockridge section go for close to that. Also, Oakland is home to more artists per capita than any other large U.S. city (because they've all been priced out of SF).

[DemocraticWing]

46. Poverty.

It's widely accepted that the root cause of violence is poverty and problems associated with it. Leaving young people (often men) disenfranchised from the system without education or job prospects leads people to become more desperate and make worse decisions. They are treated like criminal outcasts by the justice system (and its associated prison-industrial complex) for doing something as insignificant as smoking weed, and once people become criminals they are likely to be hardened and it raises the chances they'll commit a violent crime.

The south is the region most affected by poverty, and therefore more likely to have problems with crime and violence. This is how we explain crime in places like Chicago and Detroit, so while it may be easy to jump up and down and claim that southerners are genetically different from "real Americans" and predisposed to violence, it makes more sense to draw comparisons with crime and its causes in every region of the country. And poverty is the biggest culprit no matter the region.

As Democrats we should be addressing the problems of poverty in every region including the south, even if it is full of Republicans. It might just make the south less Republican.

[applegrove]

50. +1000

[bemildred]

70. +1. nt

[Javaman]

72. +1 nt

[DireStrike]

145. Can't believe it took 46 posts for this (correct) response to come out.

[Sanddog42]

52. "People in the South are so nice!"

No. They're often polite. They're usually friendly. But they ain't necessarily nice.

[Dawgs]

64. Compared to other places they are very nice.

I've lived in the South (Georgia) for 20 years and in the North (Ohio) for 20.

When have you lived in the South?

[Sanddog42]

125. Briefly as a child

I only lived in the South (Dallas, GA) for about a year as a child, but I grew up in Limbo between the North and the South (i.e. West Virginia, along the Kentucky border) and I visited my uncle in many times in GA growing up. Since then I've only made a few visits (New Orleans, S.C.).

I've also lived in Columbus, OH, and I've been California for going on 20 years.

I haven't found people of the South to be any nicer than any other place. In fact, as this thread points out, there's more violence and I believe a lot more racism and homophobia. I've heard some people say there's just as much racism other places and that Southerners are just more honest and open about it. That hasn't been my experience.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Regionalistic crap.

"The South accounted for 40.9% of all reported violent crimes even though it makes up roughly a quarter of the country, according to the final Uniform Crime Report for 2012. "

How is 34% of the population of the US, "nearly a quarter?" Oh, that right, the author is referring to the number of states, not the actual population!

"That is, their testosterone levels rose."

They measured this how?

[Dawgs]

65. +1.

[cordelia]

69. Plus another 1

[bemildred]

71. +1. nt

[backscatter712]

56. Maybe they should bring back duelling.

Let those who self-select as people who voluntarily engage in mutually agreed upon acts of violence on each other remove themselves from the gene pool.

[dem in texas]

57. So Aggressive, So Macho

Yes, Southern men don't take kindly to be called an asshole. They are so aggressive and macho, that is why we love em!

[PassingFair]

144. Bullshit Male "Honor Code" upbringing.

So destructive to the perps AND those around them.

[meow2u3]

148. I don't find aggression and machismo very attractive

In fact, a hothead who has to prove his manhood by blowing everything and everybody to kingdom come is not my idea of a real man. BTA, I'm a Northerner from the Northeast.

[ZombieHorde]

59. Red state poverty. nt

[Rstrstx]

62. Looking at the most violent data with a finer comb, and the states they're including in the south

It may sound like the south has an unusually large 40.9% rate of crime in the US but it's also the most populous region of the 4 artificially divided areas, accounting for 37.4% of the population.

What I was interested in was the most violent crime, murder/manslaughter. The FBI provides a breakdown by state as well as region, and the results are interesting. It gives the overall number plus the rates per 100,000, which is what I'll list for each region and subregion. It should be noted that they are very generous in their inclusion of the south, ranging from Delaware and DC to Texas

NATIONAL MURDER/MANSLAUGHTER RATE (per 100,000): 4.7

NORTHEAST (3.8):
New England (CT,ME,RI,MA,NH,VT) 2.4 has some of the best rates in the country, ranging from 1.1 and 1.3 in NH and VT to 4.1 in CT. This is the lowest of all of the artificially constructed subregions.
Middle Atlantic (NY,NJ,PA) 4.3 These three fare more poorly, with NY surprisingly faring the best at 3.5 while NJ and PA come in at 4.4 and 5.4 respectively.

MIDWEST (4.7):
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 5.2 These states range from a low of 3.0 in WI to a high of 7.0 in MI. IL and OH come in at 5.5 and 4.3 respectively
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 3.5 This is a pretty diverse area (maybe too diverse) and it shows, with rates ranging from 1.5 and 1.8 in IA and MN to a much higher 6.5 for MO.

SOUTH (5.5):
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, MD, GA, NC, SC, VA, WV) 5.4 wow, what homogeneity (sarcasm)! Rates range from lows of 3.8 and 3.9 in the Virginias to a whopping 13.9 in Washington DC, with the highest state being SC at 6.9. Most states fall around the 5 to 6 range, which is relatively high. FL, the most populous state in the zone, comes in at 5.2
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 6.1 range from 4.5 and 6 in KY and TN to just above 7 in AL and MS. This is the highest of the subregions, surely due to AL and MS (at least they didn't include LA).
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 5.4 the Texas bashers on here are going to be quite disappointed to know it has the lowest in the subregion at 4.4 (lower than the national average), with the highest being LA at 10.8, the highest of any state. OK and AK come in at 5.7 and 5.9.

WEST (4.2):
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 4.2 ID and UT have New England-like lows of 1.8 while NM is the highest at 5.6 (but down impressively from 7.6 the previous year). AZ is just behind at 5.5
Pacific (CA, OR, WA, AK, HI) 4.4 HI and OR come in at 2.1 and 2.4 to CA which comes in at 5.0, higher than TX and way higher than NY. I don't know if the average includes PR, which I'll list below

Puerto Rico: This one easily takes the cake at a massive 26.7 rate (and that's down from over 30 in 2011!). Even DC can't compete with that. Very disappointing as it is one of my favorite places in the US, second only to Hawaii (and yes I consider PR part of the US, at least sort of. I love it dearly)

Overall I'm skeptical of the OP's premise, though there clearly is a violent zone in the LA-MS-AL area, with SC maybe thrown in for good measure too. But the rest of the region is not that different than many other states. The yay-hoos here in TX seem no more inclined to murder than their counterparts in OH or NV do and are in fact lower than CA or any state on the East Coast south of New York with the exception of Virginia.

[Dawgs]

63. Maryland and DC are not in the South. I don't have a problem with TX.

You make a lot of great points, BTW.

[maddezmom]

66. Thanks for pulling out the stats

Wonder if anyone will bother reading it before making any more sweeping generalizations.

[Behind the Aegis]

141. Of course they will not, it can be seen through this entire thread.

It is bigotry known as "regionalism." It is one thing to look at areas of problems, it is another to draw conclusions that all (or even most) people from that area are "x". It is easier to see Southerners as knuckle-dragging, cousin-fucking, inbreed, illiterate hicks, than to actually understand the South is a large area encompassing a number of people, ideas, values, and cultures. That's why bigotry is so appealing to some, it takes away the pesky task of thinking.

[daleo]

134. Well done

Facts are good.

[cordelia]

68. You haven't started a South bashing thread in a while.

I was getting worried.

[applegrove]

117. Come on now. How often do we talk

about black urban crime as a society? All the time. So for once someone writes an article on violence in another group and it is “bashing“? The South does all it can to keep its‘ identity as one group but according to you it can never be critisized? The U S A gets critisized all the time. Why not the South once every two years? It is really not out of line if you think about it.

[Romulox]

75. The South has pulled us down into its right-to-work cheap-labor, racial animus, and deregulation.

The US has been remade in its image, and it is very ugly.

[ohheckyeah]

80. Which begs the question....

if the rest of the country is so much smarter and superior, how and why does it manage to let the south pull it down?

[Romulox]

82. The same reason it is so hard to build, but so easy to destroy. Don't you see the destruction? nt

[ohheckyeah]

84. What I see is a country divided....

and blaming everything on the south is just ridiculous.

What I also see are a bunch of smug, self-righteous people who enjoy bashing the south. What I find funny (in a ironic, not amusing way) are all the smug, self-righteous people who have been flocking to the south because our cost of living is cheaper. They drive up home prices, enjoy the lower cost of living all the while trying to remake the south into whatever metropolitan area they moved here from.

I've lived "up north", "down south", "back east" and "out west" and I didn't find any one area to be a paradise. I found as much prejudice up north as I did anywhere else, as much poverty out west, and plenty of aggression back east.

Maybe we could have a study on why the rest of the country is so helpless against the south.

[Romulox]

91. We don't want the country to fall to the lowest common denominator. With regards to

workers' rights, environment, and general forward-looking social policy, the lowest denominator is mostly found in the South.

[ohheckyeah]

93. Then do something about it. n/t

[HooptieWagon]

77. Easily explained by all the Yankees that moved here.

[nolabear]

78. So you're calling me an asshole, mole?

Bless your heart.

[Puzzledtraveller]

81. Ah, more fuel for the south haters

[ohheckyeah]

86. I guess they were running out of things

to feel superior about so needed an 'experiment' to bolster their smugness.

[pecwae]

114. Yep,

and we Southerners are all so ignorant, racist, inbred, etc. etc. We are the cause of all wickedness. No other part of the country can be blamed. We made them all do (insert crime, bad deed, nasty thought here).

[ohheckyeah]

116. And all of the rest of the country

is free of racism, sexism, and violence.

[Taverner]

94. I don't think it's South Hatred per se

The South does have a longer history of slavery than the North. Why is irrelevant (more industrialization in the North) but that history is there and is a constant self-inflicted wound in the psyche of everyone who puts Confederate flags on their car/house.

Not all whites, but most certainly all Confed Flag wavers.

[Taverner]

92. I will catch hell for this, but many whites in the South feel entitled to something

Either the huge plantation with a thousand slaves that their family never had or something else because they think black people took their jobs.

This kind of thinking infects the entire culture down there. Every time you see a Confederate Naval Jack, you see someone who feels they were entitled to something, but the damn Yankees/Government/Jews/Blacks/Obama took it away from them.

They spew this toxic hate to their children and it spreads. This is not to say the South is racist and the North is not.

I am just saying this plantation mentality is a cancer in the social fabric of Southern America.

When you have businesses that state simply "I will not hire a black" you have reduced opportunities. Reduced opportunities result in a dissonance in the oppressed which triggers a reaction. Could be poorly aimed reaction, but a reaction always follows.

[ohheckyeah]

95. Seriously?

You think the plantation mentality is still alive and well in the south?

[Taverner]

96. oh heck yeah

Explain Confederate Flags still being flown

[ohheckyeah]

97. I see very few in Virginia.

My opinion on why there are still confederate flags flown in the deep south is the attitude of the rest of the country toward the south. The same attitude demonstrated in this thread. It's not a symbol of wanting to go back to the plantation days, it's a big old fuck you to the smug, condescending south bashers.

I've never met a southerner with a plantation mindset or even an "I'm owed something" mindset.

Southerners are quite aware of the feelings of much of the rest of the country - it's shown everyday in movies, television shows, DU threads, etc. and frankly it's getting old. I seldom respond in threads like this but the "experiment" is pure crap and just another excuse to south bash.

Maybe northerners should clean their own house before criticizing ours.

[Taverner]

102. The North has its own blend of "Invisible Racism"

But surely the South must be Kum Ba Ya because YOU never see Confederate Flag stickers

The Klan CAN'T be in the South

You've never seen one, right?

[cordelia]

107. INVISIBLE???!????

Now that's rich.

[Taverner]

109. It's just called that - hence my quotes

Its not really invisible

It comes from people trying to be racist without sounding racist

[ohheckyeah]

108. Of course there is a Klan in the south

as there is in other parts of the country. I remember seeing Klan signs a long time ago, but the Klan and white supremacists aren't limited to the south. And yes, there are confederate flags, but they aren't as prevalent as many make them out to be. Alabama is the worst for confederate flags. But, the "south" isn't all the same just as the north isn't. The south is made up of individuals in different states and those individuals aren't all toothless, confederate flag waving, illiterate racists.

The south isn't all racist, confederate flag waving, plantation wanting morons just because YOU have seen some or think so.

[Taverner]

112. I never said "all"

I just said they exist

You're putting words in my mouth and you know it, bless your heart

[ohheckyeah]

115. You appear to judge the whole south

as the same and it isn't. Virginia has little in common with Alabama.

But surely the South must be Kum Ba Ya

Have you ever lived in the south?

[aikoaiko]

106. Nemo me impune lacessit

I think it is a Scottish thing.

[doc03]

110. Cause they are in the Bible Belt, they are good Christians n/t

[DonCoquixote]

113. Here is why

The ancestors of the Southern Majority (aka "whites&quot were:

A) oppressed as hell in the UK, taking the hits in the industrial revolution. We are talking all that grand taking of land and other things England liked to do to Celts. There is a reason why the Rebel flag is a mixture of the cross of St Andrew and St Patrick, which is to say, a Union jack with the English part ripped out. That is because the Celts that make up the South were dumped there and exploited.

B) had to make a living by killing people, be they Indians, French, Spaniards, and anyone else that was competing for the land.

C) from religious minorities such as the "anabaptists" that were also oppressed in England.

Of course, what is sad is that the oppressed because oppressors, because Nature demands that the only way to avoid being the prey is to become a predator.

[LaPera]

119. Uneducated, uniformed, encouraged ignorance & republicans using hate to promote fear.

[applegrove]

122. Other parts of the country take criticism and reality checks all the time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023703477

Why not the South. Reminds me of an abuser who is really, really sensitive about their problems and can't talk about it. But continues to abuse the country with their powerless and broken economies. And all that poverty does to people. And because they won't talk about it and be actualized they'll never be able to lick their problems. Their blind spots make them marks for ubermanipulators. The cycle of abuse will continue.

[cordelia]

150. Rubbish. One link to one story about poverty in Southern California does not equal

"Other parts of the country take criticism and reality checks all the time."

Tell us about hatred the South. Do you loathe everyone, or is your bile relegated to certain groups?

[Link Speed]

127. Fat people would rather shoot than fight

OK, I am kinda being sarcastic.

But it would make for an interesting study, considering the obesity rates South vs North.

[dimbear]

128. It's a technical point of law, just as in the military, where being drunk is a defense.

North and South are different. In the North you cannot say "Your honor, he needed killin'.

[applegrove]

129. And I wonder too if violence doesn't suppress people from not following customary law. Which,

in the case of the South, is to be for all things Republican at this point.

[LiberalLoner]

130. There do seem to be distinct regional variations in culture. I don't know

Anything about where the most violence is, or poverty, or anything else. But I've lived all over the US and sometimes I've felt so out of place, struggling to understand the rules of a different culture, a different way of doing things.

When I'm around natives of Montana or anyone from Colorado through Alaska, I feel at ease. I can be myself without fear of being laughed at or looked down on or despised. I can just relax, we speak the same language, somehow.

I often wonder if we will split into region states, instead of remaining as one gigantic country. To me it almost seems as if we are different nation states, and California is as different from Mississippi as Belgium is from Switzerland.

I wonder, when you travel to or live in a region far away from the one in which you grew up, do you find yourself feeling a stranger in a strange land?

[pitohui]

132. yeah to me people in west are just crass

it's an emotional thing

i find western people like so tacky and obnoxious, can't explain it, the feels aren't right

yes, people from the south are more violent, and i do blame scots-irish culture (which i hope is not racism as i'm partly scots-irish) but that's the language i speak as it were

it's like people from the west are always so sarcastic and trying to score points, how do you relax around that?

just hit me!

but i don't see the point of breaking up the country over it

[LiberalLoner]

143. Oh I totally understand about the crass thing. I am from Montana and

My family on my Moms side were some of the first settlers so I am Montana through and through.

The first time I took my DH (from NY) to Montana and he spent time around that culture, he said, "Now I understand you better!" Yeah, we tend to be crass and crude.

When I was living in the Deep South, I found I was, here and there, offending people and making mistakes and I didn't have the slightest clue why. All I knew was that I was just wrong wrong wrong all the time and I felt so ashamed and unwanted.

I came to the conclusion that people from the south grow up being taught a lot of rules about things, that there is a proper way and an improper way to do things, to think about things, to wear things, etc. I felt as if I had missed a decade or more of vital education I would need to fit in there, and I despaired of ever catching up, and stopped trying, stayed mostly to myself. I admired southern people for their class and refinement and intricate, complex culture, but I knew I could try as hard as I could and still never fit in.

In Montana, there isn't as much of a consensus about things. We are still a young state, still pioneers a little bit. On the other hand you can be as weird as you want to be and Montanans will pretty much accept you anyway.

It makes me sad that you were uncomfortable in my home region. I'm sorry. I always thought of our people as being the kind of people who accept newcomers and treat them kindly and help them if they need help, but I guess others don't see us that way.

It's awfully hard to bridge, the culture divides in our own country.

Maybe Dorothy was right when she said, "There's no place like home."

[quaker bill]

135. A culture of

low taxes, low wages, poor schools, few government services, and a deep and abiding love of guns.

Do I need to go on? (I can).

There is a reason why the most common charity in rural areas, after the animal shelter, is the spouse abuse shelter....

In short it is republican utopia.

[The Midway Rebel]

136. That Scotch-Irish Celtic heritage shit being spouted here is a myth.

You hear me? A FUCKING MYTH!

Most of the Scotch-Irish Celtic heritage people in America live in the NORTH. In places like NYC and and Boston. The South does have a cultural heritage of men joining military schools, "filibustering" and hunting, and therefore more guns. Throw in poverty and stir and you have a violent society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Nope, not a myth

Well known and understood cultural geography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American#Influence_on_American_culture_and_identity

[The Midway Rebel]

138. From YOUR source...

"Migration[edit source | editbeta]

From 1710 to 1775, over 200,000 people emigrated from Ulster to the original thirteen American colonies. The largest numbers went to Pennsylvania. From that base some went south into Virginia, the Carolinas and across the South, with a large concentration in the Appalachian region; others headed west to western Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and the Midwest.[22]
Transatlantic flows were halted by the American Revolution, but resumed after 1783, with total of 100,000 arriving in America between 1783 and 1812. By that point few were young servants and more were mature craftsmen and they settled in industrial centers, including Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and New York, where many became skilled workers, foremen and entrepreneurs as the Industrial Revolution took off in the U.S. Another half million came to America 1815 to 1845; another 900,000 came in 1851-99. From 1900 to 1930 the average was about 5,000 to 10,000 a year. Relatively few came after 1930. At every stage a majority were Presbyterians, and that religion decisively shaped Scotch-Irish culture.[23]
According to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups, there were 400,000 U.S. residents of Irish birth or ancestry in 1790 and half of this group was descended from Ulster, and half from the other three provinces of Ireland.[24]
A separate migration brought many to Canada, where they are most numerous in rural Ontario and Nova Scotia."

Like I said, myth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Yes, and many came to virginia as well

My source also mentions Webbs book, which is one of the latest to explore this.

Oh and let me add the pesky map of self identification.

[The Midway Rebel]

140. So, Idaho is part of the South.

Parts of Alaska too. Maine? PA. Your map is irrelevant, but it proves MY point. Thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. Cultural geography is your friend

Yes, parts of Ohio are part of the borderer culture. That does not surprise those who pay attention to it.

Many in the culture emigrated to the wilder parts of Alaska in the late 20th century.

If you are interested, I doubt it by the way, in Cultural geography, this is a good place for an introduction

http://colinwoodard.blogspot.com/2012/04/presenting-slighty-revised-american.html

His book is pretty good too.

Likely you are not interested, as far as I am concerned we are done.

[The Midway Rebel]

147. Scotch Irish has fuck all to do with it...

It is not that I am not interested in cultural geography. The topic of the OP is violence in the the South and it has nothing to do with being Scotch Irish. Like I said, its the poverty. The map in the following article illustrates my point.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/business/in-climbing-income-ladder-location-matters.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=1&

[YoungDemCA]

151. I don't think it's just poverty...

It's the history of the South being a place where an elite minority of large, rich landowners (who happened to be- mostly-descended from the British Isles) ruthlessly and violently oppressed the vast majority of poor European immigrants-many of whom came over as indentured servants-by structuring Southern society in a tightly stratified manner. Specifically, the "color line" between "whites" and "blacks" was nowhere more acute than in the South.

The intertwining of racism/white supremacy, fundamentalist Christianity, and strict social norms relating to class inequality-all of that contributes to the South's uniqueness.

[dawg]

149. Little known fact ...

sweet tea stimulates the adrenal glands.

[Aerows]

152. Thanks, Canadian citizen

that impugns the place I live that we are violent, awful and generally repugnant.

[applegrove]

153. Nobody said anything about everyone being that way. Just that some work needs to be done.

It would be a tiny portion of the south that needs some work. Hey, I've worked in places in Canada that are pretty tough going. The point is once you can admit there is a problem then you as a society roll up your sleeves and do something. Instead of just going into attack mode when someone points out there are issues in your neck of the woods. We in Canada had to completely rethink who we were during the quiet revolution in Quebec. We did a whole lot of work. And things are good.

[Kolesar]

155. People where I live aren't whiners. We don't have to settle every harm

I think it is the snow and cold that keep us tough and focused on the real struggles.