Pentagon Proposes....wait for it....Boots on the Ground.

[Junkdrawer]

Washington (CNN) -- The Pentagon has "put a proposal on the table" for U.S. military forces to train and equip moderate Syrian opposition forces for the first time, two Obama administration officials told CNN.

If approved, it would dramatically increase the role of the U.S. military in Syria's civil war and would for the first time put American troops in direct contact with opposition forces.

The idea has been under consideration since the August 21 chemical weapons attack outside Damascus, which the United States says was carried out by the regime of Bashar al-Assad.

There are few specifics on troops or other aspects of the military proposal, but both officials said the effort envisions training taking place in a country near Syria.

....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/18/politics/us-syria-training/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Boots on the Ground? Well, depends on what your definition of "is" is. Sure the boots will be on the ground, but they'll be in "a country near Syria."

It's our fault, getting all upset and shit about a harmless little cruise missile attack.

[The Magistrate]

1. We Have People In Jordan Already, Sir

And a NATO relation with Turkey.

This no significant change, or significant intensification.

[Junkdrawer]

2. Just advisors....

surely it won't escalate from there.

[The Magistrate]

3. No Reason To Assume it Will, Sir

We have advisers and trainers in a slew of places.

The point is that you are trying to present this as some startling new development, when it is in fact nothing of the kind.

"It was his life's work to announce the obvious in terms of the scandalous."

[Junkdrawer]

5. As long as they're (we're???) winning.....

otherwise....

[The Magistrate]

6. You Sound Eager for Disaster, Sir

We usually cut pawns off pretty quick when the game goes sour.

[Junkdrawer]

7. You Sound Eager for Involvment....

No way to get "just a little pregnant" with this one.

[The Magistrate]

9. Not In The Least, Sir: Merely Opposed To Distortion And Hysteria

And aware of what is actually going on already.

[Junkdrawer]

14. Oh...

I have such a hard time remembering what we know and what we're not supposed to know.

[The Magistrate]

15. When You Seek Out People Who Make Stuff Up, Sir, It Complicates It Even More

And unnecessarily, too.

"Sufficient unto the day are the troubles thereof.'

[Junkdrawer]

18. Oh, my Beautiful Mind

What have I done, seeking that awful thing called Truth?

Why, oh why can't I just accept what the Corporate Media tells me? Surely they wouldn't LIE on purpose?

[The Magistrate]

20. Some Do, Sir, Prefer Cheaper Rot-Guts To Established Brands

More kick when swallowed, and a delicious sense of going where few others will go. Adventure, novelty, real creativity in the lies the off-brands provide.

[Junkdrawer]

24. To each, his own....

I find the corporate swill tastes like formaldehyde lately.

Your mileage may vary.

[The Magistrate]

29. Indeed, Sir: Cut With Strychnine And Wood Alcohol Seems To Be Your Tipple....

[leveymg]

16. That's what Def. Sec. McNamara said, and he was never wrong.

[The Magistrate]

17. Actually, Sir

Advisors went in under President Eisenhower, and had been there several years before President Kennedy took McNamara on.

McNamara steadily pressed for greater involvement, including combat involvement, while in the cabinet.

His record is hardly one of thinking a small number of advisors would suffice, and lead to nothing more, and then being lured into greater and greater and greater commitment. Greater commitment was what he wanted, and argued for, from the start.

[leveymg]

22. Indeed, Mac's legacy is escalation. Few to many boots in little steps. That was exactly my point.

Maybe, I should have made it rain to make it clearer for you?

[The Magistrate]

27. But Desired From The Start, Sir

Not a thing which grew from a small intention.

[leveymg]

30. Not until they capped Diem and JFK, then it became clear. Until then, it was just another hot spot.

Actually, it seemed to be Kennedy's intention to negotiate a settlement before the '64 elections. Or, so some believe.


Would JFK Have Left Vietnam?: An Exchange
September 30, 2010
Kai Bird, reply by William Pfaff
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/sep/30/would-jfk-have-left-vietnam-exchange/?pagination=false

[The Magistrate]

32. They Believe In Error, Sir

President Kennedy was a serious Cold Warrior.

[leveymg]

34. They were of two minds. Check out the link to the article I just added.

I am aware they almost incinerated the planet just a couple years earlier. Very serious Cold Warriors, but not without redemption.

[The Magistrate]

36. Read It When It Came Out, Sir

Rather like Mr. Pfaff, often.

There would have been no withdrawl. The reasons were rooted in domestic politics; no one was going to court another 'who lost where-ever' episode.

[leveymg]

46. So much of this still resonates.

I hear undertones of, "When they stand up, we can stand down" and rumblings of the Iraq insurgency is "in its Last Throws" and Gen. Petraeus' The Surge in the following:

Elsewhere in the conversation, it becomes obvious that McNamara’s withdrawal plan was contingent on getting the South Vietnamese to fight. General Maxwell Taylor is heard chiming in to say that when he asks his army officers,

When can you finish this job in the sense that you will reduce this insurgency to little more than sporadic incidents? Inevitably, with the exception of the [Mekong] Delta, they would say, ‘64 would be ample time.’ I realize that’s not necessarily…I assume there’s no major new factors entering [unclear]. I realize that….

And then President Kennedy interrupts Taylor to say, “Well, let’s say it anyway. Then, ‘65, if it doesn’t work out, [unclear: we’ll get a new date].”

The evidence is obviously murky. There is nothing clear-cut in these conversations one way or the other. But it is probably safe to say that President Kennedy had not made up his mind about Vietnam before he was assassinated. Bundy’s assistant, Michael V. Forrestal, later told CBS in 1971 that on November 21, 1963, Kennedy had told him in the Oval Office that when he got back from Dallas, “I want to start a complete and very profound review of how we got into this country, and what we thought we were doing, and what we think we can do. I even want to think about whether or not we should be there.”

This sounds like Kennedy—but this too is oral history told long after the fact.

Kai Bird
Kathmandu, Nepal

Nothing really changes, and not many lessons learned. Except for promises of No Boots, for now.

[The Magistrate]

47. And In Both Instances You Reference, Sir

Domestic politics was the chief factor driving decisions.

The pattern was set by the 'who lost China' agitation on the right in Congress, a right which included a good many Democrats, including Lyndon Johnson.

[leveymg]

52. I remember Vietnam being referred to at the time more as a domino than as a chess piece that might

be traded away to gain position on the board. While JFK undoubtedly thought in larger (or is it more parochial?) political terms, most of the advisers whose memories we selectively reference tonight were undoubtedly world-class global strategists. So, as I said, they were of two minds - Kennedy and his advisers against Kennedy and his advisers.

[The Magistrate]

53. Never Lose Sight Of Domestic Political Considerations, Sir

They generally predominate over any considerations of global strategy.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Chomsky just said this a few days ago:

....

The same was true in Vietnam. The primary motive for the Indochina wars, going back to the early 1950s, was presented here as the domino theory. But what that meant was, if you read the internal records, that there was a fear, a justified fear, that successful independent development in Vietnam might spread through the region, might spread contagion through the region. Others would attempt the same path, that itself was of no great significance, but it might spread as far as Indonesia, which has rich resources, and there, too, there might be a move towards independent development, independent of U.S. domination. And it was even feared that that might bring in Japan. John Dower, the famous Asia historian, described Japan as the "superdomino." The U.S. was concerned, deeply concerned, that if Southeast Asia moved toward independent development, Japan would "accommodate," the word that was used, to East and Southeastern Asia, becoming its technological industrial center and creating a system, an Asian system, from which the U.S. would maybe not be excluded, but at least which it wouldn’t control. Now, the U.S. had fought the Second World War to prevent that. That’s Japan’s new order, and it was in danger of being reconstituted if Indochina gained independence. That’s the domino theory. And that was understood. McGeorge Bundy, Kennedy-Johnson national security adviser, in retrospect, observed that the Vietnam War—the United States should have called off the Vietnam War in 1965. Why 1965? Well, because in 1965 a U.S.-backed military coup took place in Indonesia, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people, wiping out the only mass-based political party and instituting a regime of torture and terror, but opening the country up to Western exploitation, with its rich resources, and that meant that the Vietnam War was essentially over. The U.S. had won its main objectives. It was pointless to continue it.

....

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/11/chomsky_instead_of_illegal_threat_to

Wonder if Chomsky is Wood Alcohol or Strychnine?

[leveymg]

48. Funny. I always thought it was China that kept them up at night, until G.H.W. entranced

Beijing with visions of glorious capitalist wealth thereby giving China the keys to eventual domination of not only Asia, but of us.

Indonesia never seemed more than a steamy Dutch plantation by comparison. But, I don't build my cocktails quite as dry and elaborate as Noam.

[upaloopa]

31. I think we were backing the French back then.

[The Magistrate]

33. Loosely, Sir

Neither President Truman or President Eisenhower really had their hearts in a French restoration there.

Afterwards, the usual 'can't lose to the commies' reflexes took over.

[upaloopa]

59. We supplied the French with planes and other weapons

[The Magistrate]

60. We Certainly Did, Sir

Mostly stuff we viewed as junk or useless; Kingcobras and Bearcats, for instance.

That was just going through the motions; if their hearts had been in it they would have sent substantial aid including troops and air support. There were some in Congress wanted to employ atomic weapons after the fall of Dien Bein Phu.

[upaloopa]

62. During the Korean war we had a Navy bomber stationed in country fully loaded

with a nuclear bomb. I think the plane was called the savage.

[The Magistrate]

63. That One Was An Odd Duck, Sir

An odd little passage of history, just after the war, where the Navy tried to make the case it should be the strategic air arm, on the grounds army air force equipment lacked the range needed for global reach, while carrier-based planes could reach further. The 'Savage' was a large twin-engined machine able to land on a carrier, and had an operating radius of about 800 miles without refueling. By the time it came into service, the Navy had pretty much lost this inter-service scrap to the new Air Force, and did not get a nuclear grip till the bugs were out of the ICBMs, and they got the polaris submarines.

[upaloopa]

64. I am impressed by your knowledge. I doubt anyone else

here could tell me about the savage. Are you familiar with Jack Northrup and the demise of the flying wing in favor of the B-36.

[The Magistrate]

65. I Know Something Of It, Sir

I have read test pilot accounts of the Wing; the thing scared the pants off them, and would have been pretty near impossible to get out of in an emergency. Whether it could have been made into a real service machine in time I have no idea.

The B-36 was kind of an ultimate, one of the few instances of giantism in U.S. design. But these are all a bit past my period, in which this one kicked the whole string off:

[upaloopa]

66. That plane crashed on take off from Wright Pat

I was born on Wright Pat in May 1946.
I spent at least 4 days a month as a kid at the Air Force Museum.

[The Magistrate]

68. I Think You Are Thinking Of The First B-17, Sir

This is the XB-15, a one-off predecessor, a good deal larger than the B-17.

It was used as a transport in the Caribbean during the war, and scrapped in '45 in Panama.

[upaloopa]

69. yep you're right

[The Magistrate]

70. The Little One Under It is a P-26: They Make Quite A Pair....

[dkf]

4. Not only no...hell no!!!!!

Maybe we should arm our congress people and send them over since this is what they want.

[DevonRex]

8. IOW, many proposals were submitted on how to deal w/the CW attack.

This was one of them. Somebody at CNN needed a story, wanted to stir up crap, this is the result.

The state of "journalism" today.

[woo me with science]

10. Do we know this script by heart,

or do we know this script by heart?

[Junkdrawer]

12. Practice make perfect....

You know the way to Carnegie Hall...

[Uncle Joe]

11. The way I see it there are only four alternative scenarios.

1. Assad winning the war and staying in power.

2. Al Qaida and/or the hard-line Islamists coming to power.

3. The relatively moderate Syrians getting the upper hand.

4. Some sort of power sharing agreement between the parties, Al Qaida excluded. But if that happens I don't see any lasting chance of an Islamist and moderate/secularist government lasting for more than a year before all hell breaks loose again.

I believe the fourth scenario would be best for the people of Syria if they could guarantee and protect freedom of religion and women's rights but that seems like a long-shot.

It's a mess.

Thanks for the thread, Junkdrawer.

[TheKentuckian]

37. What is the current definition of "relatively moderate"?

[Uncle Joe]

41. To be honest, TheKentuckian, I'm not sure, it might be these guys, but I couldn't guarantee it.

On a thread by Purveyor

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014595008

Infighting Among Syrian Rebels As Al-Qaeda-Backed Opposition Battles Moderates Near Iraqi Border
Source: Associated Press

BEIRUT — Al-Qaida-affiliated rebels battled more moderate Syrian opposition fighters in a town along the Iraqi border on Saturday, killing at least five people in the latest outbreak of infighting among the forces opposed to President Bashar Assad's regime.

Clashes between rebel groups, particularly pitting al-Qaida-linked extremist factions against more moderate units, have grown increasingly common in recent months, undermining the opposition's primary goal of overthrowing Assad.

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Saturday's fighting took place in the town of al-Boukamal between the al-Qaida-linked Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant against more mainstream rebel groups.

Observatory director Rami Abdul-Rahman said the more moderate rebels used mosque loudspeakers Friday to demand the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant leave Boukamal. When it was clear Saturday the ISIL had no plans to decamp, the mainstream groups attacked, Abdul-Rahman said. Three mainstream rebels and two ISIL fighters were killed in the clashes, he said.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/14/syrian-rebels-infighting_n_3926850.html

[Junkdrawer]

42. Another State (successfully) reduced to a loose collection of warlords.

Kilroy was here.

[Uncle Joe]

45. We're all a loose collection something even here in the U.S.

What would be your answer?

[Junkdrawer]

50. Good point. As the concept of strong, centrally (I prefer democratically) enforced laws....

breaks down, we're all reduced to a loose collection of warlords.

Remember The Crimson Permanent Assurance from the beginning of Monty Python's The Meaning of Life?

The gangsters will battle each other for turf soon....

[Uncle Joe]

54. So do I, Junkdrawer, I also prefer democratically enforced laws.

My dream would be for the Syrian People to rise up nationwide with peace protests reject war and peacefully assume the mantle of power, that would be the best of all worlds.

Having said that, I know the people with the weapons will end up assuming control, I hope and pray for the Syrian Peoples' sake, they're benevolent, enlightened and wise.




That was a funny movie clip.

Peace to you.

[Marrah_G]

13. Bin Laden, Bin Laden, Bin Laden

Which one of the rebels will be the next Bin Laden?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Getting boots on the ground has worked ever so well in Afghanistan, Vietnam, and other civil wars.

As successful as our mighty military has been, they should be brought home and issued carpet slippers and told to avoid dangerous instruments.

[Junkdrawer]

21. We're real good at training young minds to kill on demand....

it's the teaching of self-forgiveness when they get home that's hard.

[rug]

23. Expect a new name for boots in a day or two.

[grahamhgreen]

26. LOL, or a new name for ground

[leveymg]

28. "American advisors." Why not, it all worked out great back then, didn't it?

[1000words]

61. "Flip-flop" seems appropriate.

[grahamhgreen]

25. HAHAHAHAHAHA puke

[Cleita]

38. Like you couldn't see it coming?

They must think we have no memory of past wars from Korea to where we are now where they promise we wouldn't be doing much until some incident, oh say the Gulf of Tonkin, happens. Before we can set down our coffee cup, we are fully engaged in another war.

[Junkdrawer]

39. Everybody (well, almost everybody) is waiting for the next *ahem* Covert shoe to drop...

Size and target seem to be the big unknowns....

[BlueToTheBone]

40. Time for another round of phone calls

and emails and faxes. No. No. No.

[madrchsod]

43. if syria falls then israel will go into full out war footing

if we can produce a stalemate by training the more moderate elements in the region and put political pressure on the major players in the region then it just might avoid further escalation.

[Junkdrawer]

44. Depends if they still have CWs....

A toothless, deeply divided Syria would suit many in Israel just fine.

[ProSense]

51. Kucinich interviewed Assad, who says there is no civil war in Syria

Assad Tells Kucinich Chemical Weapons ‘Not a Secret Anymore’ During...Fox Interview (updated 2x)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023692289

[Junkdrawer]

58. What does that have to do with the OP? n/t

[Rex]

55. Let's be honest here, it is the freaking Pentagon!

What did you expect from the largest military organization on the planet?

Water is wet.

[SomethingFishy]

67. +1 This is what they do..

And so far this is just a plan...

It reminds me of the Greg Palast book Armed Madhouse. He details an attempt by the Navy in 2004 to figure out a way to fire Marines out of submarine torpedo tubes onto the shore so they could play a deeper part in the Iraq invasion. They didn't want to be left out you see... I think the price tag was near 20 million to figure out it was a stupid idea.

[deek]

56. Can't get this song out of my head

[link:http://

|

[L0oniX]

57. Everyone but the BOGies figured this. n/t