tuscarora squaw

[Chaco Dundee]

I metioned the upset of a few people on how I adress my wife to her last night and here is her reaction.first she would like to thank WHTTEVERR for her infomative post and the same thanks go to Marge Bruchac.everybody who supported her will be in her mind and in her peoples mind as well as in mine.all of the folks who chose to insult me,ultimately insulted her and her people.her words were that she feels very sorry for you.

[hlthe2b]

1. Can you please link to whatever thread provides the much needed context for this post?

Last edited Tue Sep 17, 2013, 01:18 PM - Edit history (1)

I have no idea what this is all about, but I am sorry that you and your wife were left feeling insulted--apparently over cultural misunderstandings?

[Chaco Dundee]

2. hi

I am not familiar with links ect.my post is under #13 yesterday by stevenleser. You'll find my post as Chaco Dundee (says who)just follow down the comments.

[CreekDog]

22. so you're saying you know what was said, but you aren't familiar with links

you're also saying that you're posting to pass on a message that your wife wanted to say, that you agree with.

i am finding this all as believable as the idea that, for want of a better term, Native Americans regularly use the term "pale face" to describe white people.

in fact, having lived adjacent to Indian Country, that term sounds quaint. this isn't to say people in these groups don't have legitimate gripes against the larger, mostly white, ruling culture, but that like the term "whitey", the idea that Native Americans are going around calling people "pale faces" sounds more like a white person pretending to be a Native American saying what white people think Native Americans say.

and i say "sounds like..." because i have no proof.

but it does not sound like what it's purported to be.

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Here's a link to the first post....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3675850

[Chaco Dundee]

4. thank you

[Gormy Cuss]

5. Here's the thing: using it here, where no one knows if you are yourself an Indian, is dicey.

And contrary to the whtteverr link, there's another reason other than the 'vagina translation' why squaw shouldn't be used by white people. The word in English had a long history as a derogatory term -- essentially calling Indian women dirty, stupid, and less than human. It was an attitude that allowed the perpetuation of treating Indian women as less than human.

My grandfather's people used 'squaw' to mean woman. It had no negative connotation in their language. When he went into town and heard white people talk about squaws he knew they didn't mean it in a good way. That's the difference.

Please remember that we are faceless posters, with no age, gender, race, or ethnicity known unless we make it so. That means people will assume that you are exactly like them (same age, race, etc. ) until you tell them otherwise. Early on I had a poster rip my head off because she disagreed with something I said about women and she did so because she assumed I was a man. I was upset at first but then I realized that I hadn't said that I was a woman.

[hlthe2b]

6. ^^This^^

For me, it is not dissimilar to the situation with some in the AA community working to reappropriate the "n" word....I appreciate that those among the black community have that right, but for me, the term will always elicit a cringe, as I am old enough to have seen the pain and harm rendered to African Americans by white individuals with that term.

Similarly, I am old enough to have born the intense misogyny and harm rendered by men who used the "C" word to disparage women--especially in the workplace. Though some women (especially but not exclusively those too young to have born that pain) seek to reappropriate that word as well, it will NEVER be alright with me.

Within cultures and populations, language may have very different connotations and I can definitely respect that--and again, I am sorry that your wife (that of the OP) was offended by those calling into question your use of the term. But in the wider world, those terms that have a long history of MISUSE and abuse towards a group or groups need to be used quite cautiously, IMO.

[Chaco Dundee]

7. oh well

Terms which are absolutely correct and not offensive need to be used cautiously because of there misuse or abuse to groups of people?.should we then all drive our cars backwards so traffic laws relax?

[hlthe2b]

8. when you get past your immediate reaction, I think you might want to give it further thought....n/t

[Chaco Dundee]

9. glad to look at it from a distance.

I might change my mind if there was a valid argument.excuses and «immaginary« traditions don't do it for me. But thank you for your thoughts.

[LanternWaste]

11. one would think that simply censoring our speech via the mechanisms of good judgement and civility..

"should we then all drive our cars backwards so traffic laws relax?"

No. However, one would think that simply censoring our speech via the mechanisms of good judgement and civility would deny the vast majority of offenses.

However, I do realize that that may be somewhat impracticable for the individuals who believe that speaking cautiously is simply too hard, and that language is an absolute.

[Chaco Dundee]

15. how can I argue with that

Simply censoring our speech via the mechanics of good judgement and civility?censory is never simplle and mechanics of speech are the root of misunderstandings.stick with the original meaning of terms in a language and there will be no doubt in anybodys mind,what was said.go to mechanics and judgement for the sake of civility opens the door for lies misinterpretians and ignorance of the meaning of terms.it makes it siimple.

[LanternWaste]

19. What is the precise and relevant premise on which you base that?

"censory (sic) is never simplle (sic)"
What is the precise and relevant premise on which you base that?

".stick with the original meaning of terms in a language and there will be no doubt in anybodys (sic) mind,what was said.."
Therefore, to you, referencing a 'gentleman' implies only (and only) freeman over the age of majority who owns more than 75 acres of land and is of genteel birth?


"for the sake of civility opens the door for lies misinterpretians (sic) and ignorance of the meaning of terms..."
What specifically leads you to that conclusion?


".it makes it siimple (sic)." Good judgement and civility even more so-- except for those for whom good judgement is, well... difficult.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. Terms which are not offensive in some contexts are in others.

For example, calling a 17 year old male a boy is absolutely correct. Calling a 17 year old African-American male a boy is still accurate, but also likely to provoke a strong reaction unless you happen to be someone that lad knows well enough to exclude its use as a racial put down.

Context. It matters.

[Chaco Dundee]

13. it does matter if one will make it so.

[snooper2]

14. What do you do for a living?

[Chaco Dundee]

16. entrepreneur

[snooper2]

18. You get to see many pale face women?

You probably should get into retail sales

[Chaco Dundee]

20. yes I do.

They go to cancun with me to get rid of those pale faces.they find retail boring as they are sailing the gulf with my wife and myself.

[snooper2]

21. so you like pink face then?

I prefer blue face myself LOL

[whttevrr]

10. I was offended by the alert...

I was happily minding my own business and got called to jury duty.

Thank you for responding with dignity Chaco... be warned, a lot of people here are full of themselves.

And kudos to NYC_Skip for the informative link.

At Mon Sep 16, 2013, 07:13 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

says who
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3676128

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

"Squaw" is an offensive term for a native american woman. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/squaw I doubt this person is unaware of that. This is an offensive post in general.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Sep 16, 2013, 07:23 AM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Or... they may actually know the opposite? Taken on face value, it is entirely possible that this persons wife self identifies as a 'tuscarora squaw', much like another woman might self indentify as an 'italian wife'.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The alerter can challenge the terminology in thread. I'm not going to take their word for it, few people here are expert in N.A. slang and acceptable words.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Definitely offensive. Squaw? Pale face? This guy's watching too many old westerns, and I suspect his "squaw" is a blow up doll.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: "pale face lady" is offensive too. Hide. this poster is not disrupting well.... Admin notified yet?

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

It was actually a close call. Thankfully, ties go to the poster. The hypocrisy on display here lately is maddening.

[Chaco Dundee]

17. thank you

I apreciate your concern and you open mind.