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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe reactions to the Putin Op-ed sure are enlightening, huh?
Seems American Exceptionalism is exceptionally fragile. Careful with that water, Dorothy...
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phleshdef
(11,936 posts)
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)
the OP is about American exceptionalism. 
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)the U.S. Also, one of the real problems with a lot of the aggressive, anti-constitutional, militaristic policies we've been pursuing is that we lose our moral authority to criticize abuses like the kinds that have been going on in Russia. Most countries now laugh at us when we speak of "human rights," and I'm sorry to say, rightly so.
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)We're just recognizing that when it comes to his critiques of the U.S., he happens to be right. That doesn't translate into, "Boy, that Putin sure is great, isn't he?"
Putin's not saying anything that millions of Americans themselves haven't been saying for years. It's just that the old argument, "Us good. Them bad," doesn't really hold water anymore.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)But my whole point is that Putin doesn't really have any moral authority to be lecturing us on our views of exceptionalism and such, especially when it comes to human rights.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Or are you just reacting against Putin and/or reacting on a perceived attack on PBO?
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I believe in American exceptionalism to the extent that we are still the most powerful and influential country on this planet and we should recognize that and be a lot more responsible in the way we use that. We produce things here that change the world, like the Internet, the PC, engineering technologies, scientific research, medical breakthroughs, even something can be said for entertainment exports like music and movies. We ARE a big deal when you are talking about the makeup of the modern world.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)as a dogma. One is an ideology, the other is a simple recognition that we are influential. A bit hubristic, however, IMO.
GeorgeGist
(25,323 posts)We're better than Them because we got the guns to prove it.
Flaxbee
(13,661 posts)laws are good? The Russian Orthodox Church has a lot more power in Russia than most people know, and the ROC is very, very conservative. No one can stay in office without the ROC's good graces. And the ROC, just like damn near every religious organization in the US and worldwide, does not support gay rights.
Obama apparently has no influence over this country's morbid gun laws. Maybe we should dismiss everything he says, because he apparently supports gun violence.
I think all this anti-gay bullshit was started by a legislator in St. Petersburg after he spent "quality time" with evangelicals in the United States.
Russia has some reprehensible statues. So does our country. It is childish and ridiculous to dismiss what Putin has done or is trying to do, or some of the valid points in his OpEd, just because you don't like some of Russia's laws.
Maybe no one should talk to the US or take Obama seriously because we still practice capital punishment.
The United States has just, within the last few years, made real strides for the LGBT community.
We haven't signed the land mine ban, we have a huge arms trade, we bomb damn near anyone who disagrees with us - well, really, only those who can't bomb back - and have a horrendous gun violence problem.
Every country has its serious problems. That doesn't mean we should dismiss every overture toward peaceful, diplomatic solutions.
Unless you're so firmly rooted in a cold war mindset you can't see beyond that, in which case, humanity truly is doomed. All people seem to do is sit around pointing fingers, flinging sh*t and crying about why someone else's idea is bad because their country has bad laws on the books. Or maybe because their leader is short and has a Napoleon complex.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I do believe Putin has an ego issue and that's what I was getting at.
Most of what you said there is absurd though.
Putin signed a law banning the adoption of Russian-born children not only to gay couples but also to any couple or single parent living in any country where marriage equality exists in any form.
He then signed a law allowing police officers to arrest tourists and foreign nationals they suspect of being homosexual, lesbian or “pro-gay” and detain them for up to 14 days.
He also signed another antigay bill, classifying “homosexual propaganda” as pornography. It vague enough that it allows for the arrest of teachers or parents who tell their children homosexuality is normal or not evil. Anyone that makes any statement that reflects a positive message about gay people around children are subject to arrests and fines. It doesn't even allow for judges or lawyers to publicly argue for tolerance during cases.
His excuse for this insanity is that "Russian birthrates are declining". To say he has no influence is an outright lie. He put his name on the god damn paper to make all this law. He speaks of these laws as if they are good laws with good reasons to exist. He isn't divorced from those laws. Its not like he is just a puppet and can do nothing about the church's influence. He has a lot of real power with his office. Its nothing like Obama and the gun situation. Obama advocates gun control and tried to get more gun control passed.
This has nothing to do with a "coldwar mindset". I look back at Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Those were good Russian leaders when placed in the context of their time. Putin is dragging Russia backwards.
As I said in another thread, Newt Gingrinch occasionally makes a really brilliant observation once in awhile, that doesn't mean I'm gonna give his point of view the time of the day.
I'll listen to a good message when its coming from a messenger that I respect. I don't respect Putin. I don't respect Newt Gingrich. Not every leader is perfect. But some leaders are just so vile and shady that they cross my personal line of how much bullshit I permit before they make my personal shit list. Putin is on that personal shit list. Get over it.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--wrong about others.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)is quite revealing.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)I lived though the Cold War when even saying that you heard what "The Commies" said put you under suspicion.
What's old is new again.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to folks on DU, as well as the guy who put those arrogant Americans in their place.
One doesn't see too many folks who are both (a) vehemently critical of US foreign policy and the Obama administration and (b) expressing skepticism at what Putin had to say in that op-ed.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)forget about the message....let's just kill the messenger.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Sarcasm wrapped with nationalism has taken over. It s quite the paradox, as these posters of silly trite messages seem no better than the communist supporters they have been brought up to dislike. They are protecting the beliefs that they have been spoon fed with out having an ability to separate individual aspects of what Putin said and take it in and reflect. Russia is bad, Putin is bad. Obama is good, Obama is a genius who meant to disarm Syria all along and wasn't just making the best of a bad situation he got himself into. They have to believe these things. Their primordial childish gut instinct is to shoot the messenger because in their minds he can't be telling the truth. He's Putin! He's ex KGB! It would mean their beliefs are a facade.
Indirectly, unbeknown to them, they are the one's keeping the cold war going. This is actually a chance for Russia and the US to come together on something but judging from these comments Americans aren't ready yet.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)great post. i'd like to see that expanded as an OP 
Raksha
(7,167 posts)The experience imparts an acquired immunity to any kind of "Red Scare" propaganda, "domino theory," or any similar bullshit.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)bunnies
(15,859 posts)Who knew hateful, oppressive, authoritarian, propaganda was so popular?
GeorgeGist
(25,323 posts)
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)i do`t see a great movement of people moving to russia for new opportunities to better their lives. i`m pretty sure that america is one of the most multicultural counties in the world.
http://www.pbs.org/destinationamerica/usim_wy.html
ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023654178
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)nonetheless.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)duly noted.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)why i read that he`s a man of peace or something like that.
oh ya ,here's a tidbit about putin....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
Mosby
(16,358 posts)Commission on Human Rights resolution 2001/24
-snip-
3. Strongly condemns the continued use of disproportionate and indiscriminate force by Russian military forces, federal servicemen and State agents, including attacks against civilians and other breaches of international law as well as serious violations of human rights, such as forced disappearances, extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions, torture and other inhuman and degrading treatment, and calls upon the Government of the Russian Federation to comply with its international human rights and humanitarian law obligations in its operations against Chechen fighters and to take all measures to protect the civilian population;
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/0/bb42f0bbfeaa0419c1256a3b0022bb85?Opendocument
Raksha
(7,167 posts)We're just saying he's right because he is.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)if they weren't so frightening.
Red Scare III...this time without Marxism.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)Snowden: Bizarro World 1
Syria: Bizarro World 2
Putin: Bizarro World 3
I'm afraid to see on what will top this, though sad to say, I expect something soon.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)
what's next? I suspect it will be the non-war war, but I hope not.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)would get so much love here.
But I'm not.
Par for the course these days.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)what does "love" have to do with reading an opinion and commenting on it? truly par for the course these days...people just dismiss everything they don't "love."
Rex
(65,616 posts)Sure, you are all 'omgz I hates that dicktater Pootie Poot!' but WAIT...have you seen Mr. Man in all his chesteness of man chest hair glory?
Fishing for capitalist pigs in Krakow.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Sure seems like it.
leftstreet
(36,112 posts)OMG Like someone's totally trying to tear Obama's poster off the wall and replace it with Putin's!
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)
I needed that!Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)But I think the part that REALLY frightens the PTB is that people are now skeptical of motives BEFORE we enter into these debacles.
So they're taking those doubts and making them synonymous with Putin-love and disloyalty.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)but maybe we have something to thank the Shrub and his henchmen for. 
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)
The angry reaction to Putin's op-ed is priceless.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)in regards to American exceptionalism. He got under their skin and hit too close to home. Now their natural reaction is demonization at any cost for they have been personally attacked. And from old Communist Russia of all places. I do believe it's a form of counter projection.
Jung writes that "All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject." Thus what is unconscious in the recipient will be projected back onto the projector, precipitating a form of mutual acting out.
cali
(114,904 posts)particularly as it pertains to U.S. foreign policy. However, aside from the accurate and salient point Putin makes regarding that issue, the piece is largely bullshit.
It's a an amusing claim that Russia doesn't support the Assad regime and a bold faced lie. Russia has had close relationships with the Assad regime for decades.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)....
Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government. The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the opposition, as terrorist organizations. This internal conflict, fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.
Mercenaries from Arab countries fighting there, and hundreds of militants from Western countries and even Russia, are an issue of our deep concern. Might they not return to our countries with experience acquired in Syria? After all, after fighting in Libya, extremists moved on to Mali. This threatens us all.
....
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?ref=opinion&_r=2&
cali
(114,904 posts)paragraph 1: True, but that is NOT the way it started. Peaceful demonstrations across Syria were met with a brutal put down by the regime- guns, tanks, missiles and aircraft were employed. thousands were killed. The initial uprising against the regime was not secular. Initially the war against the regime was led by defecting officers.
The claim that the conflict is fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition is true, but it leaves out the the above.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)I'm seeing demonstrations being put down with teargas leading to police being killed and police stations being set on fire and escallating out of control from there:
16 March Demonstrators in front of the Syrian Interior Ministry. [20][21][22] Several security officers managed to infiltrate themselves in demonstrations at different places and started shouting slogans declaring their love and loyalty to President Bashar al-Assad.[23]< The security forces arrested a number of protesters, Al Jazeera reported 25,[24] while Al Arabiya said 32[25] including activist and lawyer Suhair Atassi and Kamal Cheikho, an activist who had been released two days earlier.[26][27][28] World Organisation Against Torture published list of arrests and demanded immediate release of them.[29]
18 March[edit source | editbeta]After Friday prayers, thousands of protesters demanding an end to alleged government corruption took to the streets of cities across Syria.[30] The protesters were met with a violent crackdown orchestrated by state security forces. The protesters chanted "God, Syria, Freedom" and anti-corruption slogans.[31]
19 March[edit source | editbeta]Syrian security forces fired tear gas to disperse crowds in Daraa .[32] The crowds had been shouting "God, Syria, freedom" before the security forces intervened.[32] Witnesses said that the gas used appeared to be more toxic than ordinary tear gas.[33] The Syrian League for Human Rights reported that 10 women who had been detained on 16 March following a rally outside the interior ministry had begun a hunger strike.[34]
20 March[edit source | editbeta]Thousands took to the streets in the city of Daraa .[35] The courthouse, the Baath party headquarters in the city, and Rami Makhlouf's Syriatel building were all set on fire, and seven police were killed by armed rebels[36][37]
21 March[edit source | editbeta]Protests started to spread further across the country.[38] Thousands of people took to the streets in Daraa and troops were sent to the city.[39] Hundreds of people protested in Jassem and there were reports of protests in Banias, Homs and Hama.[39][40]
22 March[edit source | editbeta]Protests in Daraa, Jassem, Nawa and Sanamayn.[41][42] There were also reports of protests in Inkhil and rural areas around Damascus.[43] In Daraa, gunfire and tear gas was reported near the Omari mosque, which is a major gathering spot for protesters.[44]
An AFP photographer and cameraman were beaten by Syrian security forces in Daraa and had their equipment seized.[41]
Navi Pillay, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, called for an investigation into the deaths of six protesters who had been killed by Syrian security forces in March.[41]
23 March[edit source | editbeta]15 protesters had been killed by security forces in southern Syria.[45] At least six people were killed by security forces near Al-Omari mosque in Daraa, including a doctor and a paramedic.[45][46] Witnesses reported that a 12-year-old girl had been killed by security forces near the mosque.[45]
24 March[edit source | editbeta]20,000 protesters marched at funerals in Daraa.[47] Syrian Human Rights Committee reported that number of deaths rose to 32,[48]
25 March[edit source | editbeta]Tens of thousands took to the streets in protest around the nation .[49]
20 people were killed in uprising in Daraa which drew over 100,000 people.[50][51] A witness said that thousands of people chanted against the president's brother: "Maher you coward. Send your troops to liberate the Golan,"[52] A statue of Hafez al-Assad was dismantled and set on fire.[53] The governor's home was also set on fire.[53]
Protests in Damascus, Deir ez-Zor, Homs, Latakia and Raqqa.[50][54] There were reports that one demonstrator had been shot dead by security forces in Latakia and another had been killed in Homs.[55]
26 March[edit source | editbeta]200 prisoners were released.[56]
In the cities of Latakia and Tafas, Baath party buildings and police stations were set on fire.[53]
27 March[edit source | editbeta]12 people were killed in Latakia.[57] An Al Jazeera clip on YouTube records the imam of the Ar-Rahman Mosque in Latakia telling an Al Jazeera broadcaster that a massacre is occurring in the city.[58]
29 March[edit source | editbeta]Hundreds of thousands demonstrated in support of President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus, Aleppo, Hasaka, Homs, Tartous and Hama.[59][60][61]
....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_civil_war_(January%E2%80%93April_2011)
cali
(114,904 posts)wiki also said this:
In April 2011, the Syrian Army was deployed to quell the uprising, and soldiers fired on demonstrators across the country.[56] After months of military sieges,[57] the protests evolved into an armed rebellion. Opposition forces, mainly composed of defected soldiers and civilian volunteers, resisted without central leadership.[58] The conflict is asymmetrical, with clashes taking place in many towns and cities across the country.[59] Late 2011 marked growing influence of the Islamist group al-Nusra Front within the opposition forces. In 2013 Hezbollah entered the war in support of the Syrian army.[60][61] The Syrian government is further upheld by military support from Russia and Iran, while Qatar and Saudi Arabia transfer weapons to the rebels.[62
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war
The best information comes from news stories contemporary with events, U.N. reports and reports by HRW.
November 8 - More than 3,500 people have been killed in Syria's crackdown on protesters, the United Nations says.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/20/us-syria-unrest-idUSTRE7AJ0F720111120
From August 2011:
The United Nations Security Council should press Syria to comply with the council’s demand to end attacks against peaceful protesters, Human Rights Watch said today. Syria should comply with the Security Council’s August 3, 2011 statement, which also called on Syria to cooperate fully with the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), which has been investigating the abuses in Syria.
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon will brief the council on Syria on August 10, as requested in the Security Council statement. At the August 10 meeting, the Security Council should escalate pressure on the recalcitrant government by considering targeted sanctions, an arms embargo, and the appointment of a commission of inquiry, Human Rights Watch said.
“Not only has Syria ignored the Security Council’s demands, but it has responded to the international community’s demand to halt the violence by intensifying its bloody crackdown,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “President Bashar al-Assad needs to hear loud and clear that the Security Council will not tolerate such contempt for its united call for Syria to change course.”
In its August 3 statement, the Security Council unanimously condemned Syria’s authorities for “widespread violations of human rights and the use of force against civilians.” Since the statement, Syria’s government has attacked the cities of Deir al-Zor, Daraa, Saraqeb, Hoola, and Maaret al-Nu`man, and escalated its crackdown in Hama, killing at least 90 civilians and bringing the total number of civilians killed by the government since mid-March to almost 2,000. This week, the governments of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Bahrain also expressed their dismay at the government’s attacks against its population by withdrawing their ambassadors and issuing strongly worded statements of condemnation.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/09/un-syria-escalates-repression-after-security-council-statement
In the beginning the protests in Syria were much the same as the protests in other "Arab Spring countries". And there is no doubt that the Assad regime has been brutal for decades. Now none of that is reason for the U.S. to intervene militarily, and our hypocrisy is pretty marked- we used the regime to torture terrorist suspects that we sent them via rendition, but not recognizing the brutality of the regime is just silly.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)"Peaceful demonstrations across Syria were met with a brutal put down by the regime- guns, tanks, missiles and aircraft were employed. thousands were killed."
It EVOLVED into a disproportional brutal put-down, but not before a months-long violence-on-both-sides buildup with soldiers and protesters being killed.
cali
(114,904 posts)Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)You could say that.
Your OP sure stirred up the nest of people who insist that you have said or done something you didn't do.
Strawmen, Ad Hominems, and just plain Make it Up as you go Logical Fallacies strung together with Me TOO parade followers.
If one were to take away Logical Fallacies,
the post counts from that quarter would plummet.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)As I said upthread, what REALLY frightens the PTB is that people are now skeptical of motives BEFORE we enter into these debacles.
So they're taking those doubts and making them synonymous with Putin-love and disloyalty.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)debacles."
Well said. It's a hell of a lot harder to manipulate when the public is watching the con men's hands.
JohnnyLib2
(11,212 posts)Or, try it with a basically unknown name attached.
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)jingoistic as calling the U.S. "the homeland."
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Of Manifest Destiny....which was used to steal the lands of the native Americans...
The creepy shit never goes away it just changes the words.
2naSalit
(86,782 posts)And revealing.
Thanks for the chuckle, I needed that too.
AAO
(3,300 posts)
paulrandfu
(35 posts)We have a long history of destroying other countries through CIA operations and war. Its time a world leader spoke up, we need a good azz spanking.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
- If it's fragile, go with packing peanuts. They're the answer to all life's difficulties.....
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 13, 2013, 01:22 PM - Edit history (1)
Then when the A Bomb no longer was unique to us our politicians pushed the "God Bless America" to the extreme where there are people that actually believe the United States is His favorite. This is where the Religious Right thrives. They claim anything that's against their interpretation of their scripture is anti-American.
Putin's Op-Ed was not unique. He's just echoing the popular opinion around the world that America is arrogant.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)A piece of the world's history given too little time.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Is Dorothy Mr. Putin? Is the water his PR firm-produced op-Ed? Is the tin man David Cameron? Is the scarecrow GW Bush?
Help a brother out!
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)and it's melting away in front of your eyes.
The world is shrinking and opinions the PTB could easily ignore are becoming harder and harder to ignore.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)(Putin happens to be an Olympic level Black belt.)
Otherwise, I would view it a speech coming from a Judo Master.
Every word designed to keep his opponents off balance and looking in the wrong direction.
I rather respect Putin, he's the closest thing to a real James Bond Villian in the political world.
However, I wouldn't turn my back on him, or believe absolutely everything he says, sort of suicidal. Suffice it to say there will be enhough truth mixed in to make it reasonable.
However in regards to American Exceptionalism..simply an ego booster on our part.
But in the end one should think about who his target audience actually was.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)David Rockefeller, Kissinger and heirs all screaming "I am the Great and Powerful OZ"...from wheelchairs.
avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Very true
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)because every 'loyal' Democrat here must love everything Kerry does so by extension they must luv Kissinger too
unless of course you understand nuance, then well you take each episode as it comes and don't blanket attack or praise anyone
but that's just me
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)we are now in witch hunt mode.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)As I've said, I didn't read the Op-ed because I don't give a rat's ass what Putin has to say. Someone whose country is that much of a fucked up mess has no room to gripe at others. I regularly say the same thing when the US stomps its feet about something or another, too, though. Weirdly the people that insist the US doesn't have to be perfect to criticize others are now swearing Putin is wrong because Russia bad.
Heywood J
(2,515 posts)Every single side involved in this thing is dirty as all hell, so let's not pretend that anyone has the moral high ground on any issue related to Syria.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)When Bernie Sanders says these things... "Hell yeah!"
If V. Putin says them, those things are no longer true and in fact those who agree with him are gay hating totalitarian boot-lickers.
When we're lectured by people farther and farther down the ethical food chain about our ethics, it's time to change course, not double down.
