General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMormon baptism of the dead IS desecration of the dead
And I offer the following argument.
We all would agree that it would be desecration if it actually involved the bodies, right?
And yet, what I hear most often as the reason that this is no big deal is that "the dead are dead and so it doesn't affect them. It's just a mumbo jumbo spell."
But, in the same way, digging up a body and using the skull as a drinking mug doesn't "affect" the dead person either. Same argument. They're dead, right?
So, in essence, the reason that we speak of "desecrating the dead" is NOT because of its effect on the dead but because of its effect on the LIVING.
This post-mortem baptizing is an affront to the living. It is spitting on everything that that person believed in when they were alive. And the dead no longer has the ability to change their lives, so what the have left as their beliefs and their legacy is all that ever will have done and all they ever ever will do. They die, hopefully, as the person they were in the way they wanted to and THAT is how their loved ones remember them.
To even CLAIM to CHANGE someone's dead loved one, yes even to claim it, is a gross offense to the living loved ones and those who hold that memory dear.
This should be an issue on the campaign trail and someone should FORCE Mitt to answer what he thinks of this practice.
Response to Bonobo (Original post)
Post removed
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)That's a fairly awesone responsibility you've claimed for yourself, Sparky.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I do not believe nor do I practice religion but I was raised as a Jew and my mother became more and more connected to her faith as she grew older.
By the time she died 2 years ago in a couple of weeks, she was very religious. It means a lot to her.
It is NOTHING like being offended by leprechauns.
It is more like being offended by a person that tells you your daughter has a nice ass than it is like being offended by leprechauns, but in fact it is like neither.
It is like someone telling you that everything that your dead loved one believed was a bunch of bullshit and then spitting on it.
It is like someone lying down in your clean white sheets with mud on their boots.
It is like an invasion of privacy.
It is NOT like being offended by leprechauns and you have a stunning lack of sensitivity and compassion for people that do not share the same background as you.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I don't answer the door when they knock trying to "proselytize" on their missions, and I damn well don't want them claiming me after the fact. I'd rather they excommunicated me.
damyank913
(787 posts)Perhaps they're not the only intolerant ones.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Fuzz
(8,827 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Why would a non-Mormon think that Mormon baptism of the dead had any validity or effect?
It's just meaningless mumbo jumbo to a non-Mormon.
csziggy
(34,138 posts)It is offensive to Buddhists to have that done. (I tried to find that thread and couldn't.)
I don't believe in a soul, but I can see how religions whose belief in what happens to souls after the body dies differs from the Judaeo-Christian-Mormon one would be upset by that tampering.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)But the offense is as much self-inflicted as inflicted by the Mormons.
And it appears that Ghandi was a Hindu?
csziggy
(34,138 posts)Here is the thread about it - couldn't find it cause I can't spell Gandhi, either (not a good day or week for me).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002361576
What ever, the Mormons seem determine to ignore the sensibilities of every other religion but claim all kinds of consideration for their own. I guess they've learned from the evangelical Christians about that.
If a religion wants respect, they should respect the beliefs of others.
Personally it's crap like this by religionists that made me stop believing in any of their imaginary sky beings. But if they're going to start a religious war, I want to get out of the way.
iverglas
(38,549 posts)I imagine most US jurisdictions have some kind of law equivalent to the provision in the Criminal Code of Canada against offering indignities to a dead body. And the same sort of requirement that the representative of the deceased make appropriate arrangements for disposal of the body.
We just don't like it. We don't even mandate post mortem organ donation.
Now, granted, generally nobody can sue for defamation of a dead person, say. Our laws/norms tend to relate to the body itself. But there are long-standing customs, expressed in sayings like "do not speak ill of the dead", that do reflect our feeling that deceased members of our groups still have a sort of honorary membership.
Basically, we don't like the idea of our own bodies or memories being mistreated, so we don't like to see it being done to others'.
I'm a genealogy hound. I've run across evidence of ancestors of mine being posthumously baptised by proxy by some Mormon. (There are websites where people post family trees, and those associated with the giant Mormon/Ancestry.com octopus include a space to record each person's status in that regard that someone not in the know might not notice.) I think it's disgusting.
I would call it disrespect rather than desecration. It is simply disrespectful to the person who was, and yes, we do still "respect" deceased persons, to impose a choice on them that they never made.
I'm a lucky atheist, myself. Some years ago, my former church (the United Church of Canada, pretty much the most progressive Christian church on the planet) obtained an undertaking from the Mormons that they would not do posthumous proxy baptisms of people baptised in the UCC. I was baptised as an infant, of course, so I'm shielded from Mormon intervention.
... Of course, after reading a bit here about how they are not honouring their undertaking in respect of Jews, maybe I should not be so sanguine ...
All in all, though, yes: these posthumous proxy baptisms are every bit as disrespectful as desecrating graves, and yes, we human beings and our groups quite reasonably frown on the latter kind of disrespect and so quite reasonably frown on the former as well.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It stands out tremendously among the trashy, nasty responses I have gotten.
How can people be that nasty? I am coming up to the 2nd anniversary of the death of my mother who I described as having a strong faith and who I loved dearly and what do I get?
Comments about pissing on ghosts and people laughing at my superstitious idiocy even though I explained that I myself am not a believer and that belief is NOT necessary in order to be offended.
Anyway, thank you.
iverglas
(38,549 posts)I think of my grandfather, who died some 35 years ago. He was the absolutely nicest, kindest person you could meet in your lifetime. Not a mean bone in his body; a hard childhood, a union man through the Depression and all his life, the kindly and comical school crossing guard after he retired, not well-treated by a couple in his immediate family as an old man -- and a lifelong member of the UCC and soloist in his local church's choir. What was once called a good Christian gentleman, and what you might call a mensch.
That was who he was. His grandchildren in my own family are all atheists. (The other three sets are all very ordinary, although some of one set are quite rabid Baptists, which is more unusual in Canada.) When my mum organised his funeral, held at his home church to accommodate all the people who came and to acknowledge who he was, she arranged for it to be co-officiated by the minister there (who was new and did not know my grandfather well), the Roman Catholic nun who had ministered to him and sung hymns with him for two years in the nursing home after his strokes, and the Mennonite music director who had also spent a lot of time with him there.
That was who my grandfather was, and also, that was his community. It would have been wrong of my family to disregard that when we held the event to honour his memory, just because we think it's all nonsense. (And on the other hand, it was wrong of my cousin to have a bunch of hymn singing at the much smaller memorial gathering we had for my grandmother, who didn't believe and had requested that there be no funeral.)
Being the supremely tolerant person he was, if my grandfather had known that someday, some Mormon would give him a posthumous proxy baptism, he probably would have tried to understand their point of view and shrugged it off. But still. It's the intent. Which is disrespectful.
I still love talking about my grandfather, so thanks too.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Do you think the Mormon church means to disrespect the deceased by baptizing them? As foolish as I think baptism is, including the first one, I doubt that any disrespect is meant. I believe the intention is quite the opposite.
iverglas
(38,549 posts)When one treats someone in a way that is so profoundly contrary to their own choices, that can only be disrespect, I would say.
Note that it is being done for the benefit of the proxy, who is required to do this ancestral search back to, what is it, four generations? and then do the baptism thing. If it were an optional kind of thing, go collect your forebears and do this for their benefit, your argument might be stronger.
What it amounts to is instrumentalizing the deceased: using them as objects, when they were in fact the subjects of their own lives.
The mere fact that Anne Frank has been posthumously baptised ten times -- pretty clear evidence that it isn't about her at all. And how that example would not be seen as disrespectful, I can't imagine. Extreme it may be, but every one of us lives our own lives and makes our own choices and that really is deserving of respect. And to me, the way to respect that, in this instance, is just to let us all lie peacefully in our graves with our lives and choices and the memories of us intact just as we left them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/mormons-posthumous-baptism-anne-frank_n_1292102.html
Um, duh, that hadn't struck me -- Frank had no children; so whose ancestor is she supposed to be anyhow? Nothing that sloppy/dishonest could even begin to be respectful.
I use Mormon-created genealogical records all the time for my own research. The records are actually just transcriptions of independent records, like CofE parish records in England, so there's nothing tainted about them. But the LDS Church does maintain separate databases that I can't access, that contain information about posthumous proxy baptisms. (I tried to get into that part of the familysearch site when it was reorganized to see how it worked, but I needed various identifying Mormon info so I couldn't.)
A bit of info about the sealing practice - which, I note again, church members arrange for their own benefit, while of course undoubtedly believing it benefits all of their deceased ancestors and descendants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_%28Mormonism%29
It's objectifying, and I just think it's not good to objectify people, even after they're dead.
typo
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)I was under the assumption they were doing it for the deceased, not for themselves.
But still for myself, couldn't care less.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)I'll bet that no dead person has EVER complained about being posthumously baptized Mormon. Not one.
"Desecration of the dead" is something I'll worry about when the dead start making a ruckus about it. 'Till then, not so much.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)This was a clear affront to my sincere belief that heaven is more about fluffy white clouds and harps. Who is she to make Heaven "a place on earth"?
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)This post-mortem baptizing is an affront to the living. It is spitting on everything that that person believed in when they were alive
And here you have zero argument from me; but consider militantly-minded atheists who insist on demeaning and belittling people of faith who hold hope in heaven. That too is an affront; all the more so because of the deliberate in-your-face insistence of the militants. Yet, as tactless and spiteful as those atheists might be they still have a right to be tactless and spiteful -- just as the faithful have a right to remain faithful. There's no practical remedy.
It seems to me the best we can hope for is to say, "Dude, that's kind of dickish."
Or maybe one day we'll find out the Mormons were right after all and we can say, "Er, thanks. Sorry about calling you a dick back there."
Xolodno
(6,406 posts)...and gives the Mormon religion a boon, these type of arguments basically imply that the Mormon religion does indeed have power to affect the afterlife. And thereby demeaning one's own religion by implying its powerless to stop it.
And going back to the original post, even if its an affront to the living, you are still empowering the Mormon religion...and giving them even more arguments for others to convert. The best thing to do would be to ignore them or state their beliefs/acts have no relevance...as their religion means nothing to you.
Xolodno
(6,406 posts)...just because someone says "I baptize you..." doesn't mean a person is baptized. They have to be willing to accept it. Just because you throw some water and/or utter some phrase doesn't mean the person accepted it.
csziggy
(34,138 posts)4 May 2009, 18:43
Some time in 1842, the prophet Joseph Smith introduced to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a temple ceremony called Baptism for the Dead, followed shortly by a full complement of salvific ordinances by proxy for dead ancestors. But as these things often do, the original purpose of the ordinances seemed to be forgotten by some members of the church and they began trying to redeem everyone they could identify. Since this was quite a daunting genealogical task in the days before computers, (and for several years afterward) it seems that some members took a shortcut and performed proxy baptisms and other ordinances for any name they could find, which meant a lot of famous people got baptized. It appears that some time in the early 1990s there was a fad, or at least a hobby, of finding famous people to baptize. In fact, many times, ordinances were duplicated.
This web log is a tribute to that fad.
Nom de Cypher
http://famousdeadmormons.com/index.php?s=about
I suppose its not so bad that the mormons have baptized yet another self avowed atheist. They have shown no particular interest in religious identification in the past. What is truly tragic in the case of Dr. Feynman is that, while he was married 3 times, he is only sealed to two of his wives. According to mormon doctrine, then, he will be denied his rightful place in the Celestial Kingdom, not having the requisite number of wives.
http://famousdeadmormons.com/index.php
In the last 30 years or so, C. S. Lewis has been quote 25 times in General Conference, and over 100 times in church publications, so hes something of a favored prophet among the General Authorities. Its good that they have adopted him into the club, then, so that they can imagine that he was writing all his Christian apologetics just for them.
http://famousdeadmormons.com/index.php?id=211
Sagan wrote frequently about religion and the relationship between religion and science, expressing his skepticism about the conventional conceptualization of God as a sapient being. So given that he believed that it was just a matter of time before we found people living on other planets, he must be thrilled now, to be living near the planet Kolob.
http://famousdeadmormons.com/index.php?id=208