General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo it all comes down to the fact that Obama 'reckons' Assad did it.
It turns out the "irrefutable proof" now means "common sense" and this is the argument Obama is using in yet another attempt to gain support for killing men, women, (and yes) children in Syria.
Let's just be clear, you can use common sense to know that a cat with milk on her nose has been into your cereal bowl. You can use common sense to know that your teen-ager who smells of booze has been drinking. You CANNOT use common sense as an excuse to murder people. It doesn't work that way.
Using common sense as an reason to kill is called vigilante justice. It is not rule of law, it is rule without law and that is what Obama is now proposing.
Will we be a nation that requires facts and evidence before going to war or will we just reckon our adversaries deserved it anyway?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)If Obama strikes Syria on a hunch he will be responsible for the murder of men, women and children. I stand by that statement.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)you cannot argue the nuances of this with a total pacifist.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)n/t
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)blood thirsty because I care that children were gassed in their beds? That I want to see those chemicals removed from the face of the planet? If that makes me "bloodthirsty" by your estimate then so be it. I stand by my convictions..
We are 78% of the way there from removing them completely....can you name anything else horrid we have tried to remove from the planet with a 78% success (so far...when we finish eliminating ours by 2017 that number will be much higher)?
last1standing
(11,709 posts)If you want to start throwing around names and making false claims expect to get them back in return.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)sounds pretty pacifistic to me...
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Many would call what you're doing "lying," but not me. I call it making up truths with no facts.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)How many would you allow then...since you are balking at one.....how many then?
last1standing
(11,709 posts)n/t
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)You try to ask questions of me....that you think will "get me" to back into some "analysis" you have of my response that you expect.
But when I turn the tables on YOU and ask you the exact same kind of question....weeeeeeellllll doggie...I am just not being reasonable!
HA! You aren't playing games....My Aunt Fanny!
last1standing
(11,709 posts)How pathetic is that?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)but "please continue"....
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Seriously?
I'd explain why your comment is so funny but you'd either still not understand or slink off without admitting how embarrassing your posts are.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)but yet....here you are...still flapping yer trap...not smart enough to know when to slink off apparently....
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Take a few minutes, maybe read some other posts, find a jab that didn't come from the post directly above and try again.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)or you are deeply attracted to me....cause you seem to be saying you are my superior....yet here you are...still trying to get just one more jab in so you don't have leave feeling like you got pawned! Superior my Aunt Fanny!
last1standing
(11,709 posts)But I do have to get to bed so I'll just leave you with your fantasies about strangers on the intertubes being wildly attracted to blood thirsty chickenhawks who can't manage to come up with an original comment.
Enjoy what we both know you're about to do.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Maybe next time...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)A thousand?
Ten thousand?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)There I fixed it for ya...you left that part out.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Want to try answering it now?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)But it was fun to embarrass him when he decided to play pro-NSA tech expert. He's a clueless supporter of war and authoritarianism.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)How would you feel if you knew that 500 would die in US strikes in an effort to eliminate Sarin gas?
A thousand?
Ten thousand?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)How would you feel if you knew that 500 would die in US strikes in an effort to eliminate Sarin gas?
A thousand?
Ten thousand?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)apparently 1500 is too low...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I'll answer you, but you should answer me. You look like you are trying to avoid an uncomfortable question.
I have seen enough that I support taking action now. I support the UN inspectors gathering all the evidence and presenting it. I support further efforts to locate and secure/destroy chemical weapons through UN weapons inspectors. I support diplomatic efforts to end the civil war.
Now, how would you feel if you knew that 500 would die in US strikes in an effort to eliminate Sarin gas?
A thousand?
Ten thousand?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)how would you feel if you knew that 500 would die in US strikes in an effort to eliminate Sarin gas?
A thousand?
Ten thousand?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)how would you feel if you knew that 500 would die in US strikes in an effort to eliminate Sarin gas?
A thousand?
Ten thousand?
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Trying to get people to use their minds and look at consequences when the Powers that Be have them all worked up emotionally has never been a winning tactic.
Just as "patriotism" is seen as supporting fervently the Powers that Be as they lunge the country into war - while wanting peace, and a secure middle class and decent schools and needed expenditures on the infra structure is seen as being in league with the evil or Commies or socialists or something. When the later is far more patriotic than the former.
Iggo
(47,558 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Iggo
(47,558 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)apparently 1400 is not enough
sibelian
(7,804 posts)what is this insane switch in your head that calculates killing people by means other than sarin in the cause of ridding the world of sarin is somehow less ugly than sarin?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)How much Sarin are we going to allow from now on? How many people are you going to overlook it on? How many get a pass? How much WMD is okay in your book? You know weapons that 98% of the world agreed to eliminate together. (Do you know how rare it is to get the world to agree 98% to disarm? That's how big a deal that is). How much is okay to "let pass"? Inquiring dictators and tyrants want to know...
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Death cheerleaders are the cutest cheerleaders around!
You look really good in that picture, remember your chant!!
War is good!
War is great!
Let's kill some folks
and masturbate!!!!
yeeeeeeehhhhhh!!!!!
Iggo
(47,558 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)out random phrases.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Trust me on this, I actually made a prolonged effort to communicate and now wish I hadn't.
This poster refuses to even believe there are any punitive plans, only a scheme to use secret weapons that will miraculously destroy all the sarin with no boots on the ground and very limited "but well worth it!!!" deaths near the explosions.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)This has nothing to do with pacifism.
Pacifism would be if Syria attacked the U.S. and we were against striking back.
What we have here is whether the U.S.G. should -unilaterally- intervene in Syria, and do so against the protests of 180+ other nations who oppose this action.
On the other side of the planet.
After 13 years of continuous war.
Why isn't this Brazil's job?
Or Japan's?
Why is the U.S.G. the sole judge of what must be done?
treestar
(82,383 posts)by most of societies in most of the world for most of its history.
Is Assad not a murderer?
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Obama would not be. You really can't see the difference there?
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)I hope that is not what you are trying to argue.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And be left alone by the rest of the world.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Death cheerleader always come off a little creepy, you know that right?
Don'y forget your chant
War is good!
War is great!
Let's kill some folks
And masturbate!!!!!!
Yeeeeeeaaaaaayyy!!!!!
It is also so much fun to view your glorious death from TV without getting your own delicate beautiful minds and velvet soft hands dirty with the blood you call for.
You chicken hawks that refuse to fight the wars you cheer for are so very brave.
The PNAC solutes you in your efforts
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Many would call what you posted a lie but I'll just call it truthiness.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)"The Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) has provided the Pentagon with scientific, technical, and operational support against all types of weapons of mass destruction since 1998. This includes finding means of destroying WMD before they can be deployed. The agencys most famous product might be the Massive Ordnance Penetrator, a 30,000-pound bunker buster. But the DTRA also has built subtler technology that could be deployed against chemical agents.
Specialized weapons are needed for the task because conventional explosives create a risk of dispersing the agents though the blast and heat of an explosion. The plume that appears after a bomb detonation shows how high debris can riseand from that altitude it can travel downwind for many miles. This creates a lethal threat to large numbers of civilians.
One approach to get around this problem is to build a bomb with no explosivesone thats simply intended to puncture storage containers. The CBU-107 Passive Attack Weapon is a 1000-pound bomb that breaks open in the air to produce a shower of 3700 steel and tungsten darts ranging in size from an ounce to a pound, which hammer an area two hundred feet wide. This might seem like a poor solution, since the chemical agents still release into the air. But many chemical agents are heavier than air and wont travel far if released at ground level. Plus, the action of sunlight and air will degrade them. "
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/weapons/how-the-us-could-take-out-syrias-chemical-weapons-14826307
morningfog
(18,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)because what is discussed there is ONLY what is known...it says right out...that the most sophisticated plans are secret....thats all that we know about...
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)do you realize how foolish that would be? You cannot even get close to the stuff...the doctors helping the patients got sick from it even...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)How do you think they manufacture and store the chemicals?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Like we have now? I think not...lots of people being around areas where it is stored makes it all the more likely that something could go wrong..
Or are you going to say he is moving it around? Yeah that would be safe....
morningfog
(18,115 posts)They aren't radioactive. It isn't like the chemicals can't be transported. I don't think you understand the concept. Which makes realize you have no credibility on your magic foam bomb.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)what do you think they are mixing bleach and ammonia here?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Another proposed agent-defeat weapon combines a thermite mixture, such as powdered iron oxide and aluminum with a foaming agent. When triggered, this produces molten metallic foam that smothers the chemical storage area. The foam then undergoes a reaction producing temperatures of 2000 degrees F, neutralizing any chemicals. This technique was patented in 2010, which suggests development is continuing.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/weapons/how-the-us-could-take-out-syrias-chemical-weapons-14826307
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Not your fantasy foam heat bomb?
Get real.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)but I sure as hell been educating you about what is possible...
and all these folks telling me this isn't possible when freaking patents have been taken out on them...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)we have a clue where they are, (4) that we can hit them with precision, (5) ah fuck it, you are out to lunch.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)We have been doing this a LONG time...
Tender Bombs?
U . S . Military Mulls
Weapons That Disable
Bunkers, Spare People
---
Bleach, Foam, Ozone Get
A Look-Over; Creating
That Sticky Situation
http://www.pulitzer.org/archives/6368
Sorry to disappoint you....but technology is your friend.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)The one that is going to neutralize the CW by something just a hair short of magic. Here is the dirty little secret. It's never been tested. It should work in theory, if they can get a pinpoint hit on the canister, which means for missiles and artillery rounds a hit within an inch or two. If they miss by a couple inches, they will release the CW they are trying to destroy.
Are you willing to bet the lives of dozens, perhaps hundreds of innocents downwind on that kind of accuracy requirement? If we release the chemicals instead of destroying them, if the theory doesn't work out, will we turn ourselves into the Hague for committing the same war crime we blame Assad for?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)The best defense is to destroy the chemical agents as rapidly as possible, and this is the thinking behind the BLU-119/B CrashPAD bomb developed in 2004. PAD stands for Prompt Agent Defeat. Like the CBU-107, CrashPAD throws out shrapnel to pierce chemical storage containers. But this weapon also carries a main payload of more than 400 pounds of white phosphorus, which burns at a high temperature and rapidly breaks down chemical agents. In 2007, the DTRA also developed a penetrating version called Shredder to attack chemical stockpiles in underground bunkers.
The Pentagon has been secretive about the projects that have been in development since then. But from unclassified documents we know that newer weapons are likely to be more sophisticated. The latest DTRA R&D budget mentions funding for new "payloads capable of neutralizing large amounts of WMD agent." Candidates include intermetallic reactions, novel types of thermite (metal reacting with metal oxide with pyrotechnic consequences), new energetic nanomaterials, and thermobaric materialsfuel-rich explosives that react with oxygen in the air and produce high temperatures.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Because it can't be tested. It can't be tested because its illegal to destroy chemical weapons in that way in this country.
Secondly. Let's say there are 100 locations where Chemical Weapons are stored. It is probable that there are, because we have seen reports that Assad is shifting them around. Now, we don't have enough B-2's to hit that many targets, but since we're pretending this theoretical technology is foolproof, we will let that go. 100 targets with pinpoint accuracy. Not one near miss. Not one fail to function anywhere. That sort of perfection is beyond our capability. It took tens of thousands of engineers, technicians, and workers to approach that level of perfection at NASA and we still made mistakes including but not limited to Apollo 1, Apollo 13, Challenger, Columbia, Hubble, and my favorite, Gemeni 1 where we forgot to factor in that the Earth rotated.
Syria isn't going to be a cakewalk. Also, your forgot my last question. What happens if we release the CW into the population? Are we then committing the war crime we object to so strongly?
David__77
(23,421 posts)It's coming. And they don't want a discussion about what think is "minutia." They only want to debate what is in essence a hypothetical situation in the broadest terms possible.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)So there's that.
gristy
(10,667 posts)There seems to be an unstated reference here. Could you provide a quote and link for us?
Thanks!
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Who needs evidence to BOMB people, when we have a Decider?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023624242
gristy
(10,667 posts)Thanks for the link.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)the horrible.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I stepped out to grill dinner so wasn't able to respond in time.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)...because he knows how to get the crowd on your side when it comes to warring.
- K&R
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Powell had the stature and admiration of both Democrats and republicans before we all found out how many lies he told during that speech. Afterward, its hard to believe he could get elected dogcatcher.
You would have thought Kerry a smart enough man to learn from that.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)Unfortunately, many didn't want to know about Mai Lai.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that every report of wrongdoing in the world is a lie.
Things are really peaceful and happy in Syria right now.
bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)I suppose it depends on how much evidence you want to see before you come to a conclusion, though of course there is no actual necessity of ever coming to a conclusion. If you weren't there, "proof" is always something that is in doubt.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Thanks for letting me know. I could have sworn Parliament nixed Cameron's Syria adventure.
bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)I'm fairly convinced by the evidence I've heard myself, but I'm not a supporter of any broad military action, and I wouldn't be upset by a "no" vote from congress.
On the other hand, if there is a specific and limited way to degrade the Syrian military's ability to use chemical weapons, and congress approves it, then I'd probably be in support.
daleo
(21,317 posts)That's what counts.
bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)or what we shouldn't do. I disagree that to argue against intervention in Syria, one has to exonerate Assad from his apparent ineptitude and/or crimes.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)There was a time when most of us agreed that Tories were not to be trusted with war propaganda.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Jury Trial?
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)CountAllVotes
(20,876 posts)I reckin so!
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)If the president orders US forces to participate in an attack on Syria then he will be a war criminal and should be prosecuted as such.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)n/t
LibAsHell
(180 posts)Even if we had ironclad proof that Assad was responsible, it's not a reason to engage Syria militarily.
For fuck's sake, we are planning on bombing an already war-ravaged country and then praying it allows the rebels to not only take back control of key areas, but overthrow Assad AND succeed in instituting an interim government that represents all involved parties. All while inevitably killing civilians. That is NOT a fucking plan we should get behind.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-working-to-rally-lawmakers-american-public-behind-obamas-push-for-syrian-strike/2013/09/08/66cfb932-1868-11e3-80ac-96205cacb45a_story.html
cui bono
(19,926 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Last edited Mon Sep 9, 2013, 04:07 PM - Edit history (1)
http://www.theday.com/article/20130909/NWS14/309099956/1044But Obama's chief of staff cites 'common sense' test
Washington - The White House asserted Sunday that a "common-sense test" dictates the Syrian government is responsible for a chemical weapons attack that President Barack Obama says demands a U.S. military response. But Obama's top aide says the administration lacks "irrefutable, beyond-a-reasonable-doubt evidence" that skeptical Americans, including lawmakers who will start voting on military action this week, are seeking.
"This is not a court of law. And intelligence does not work that way," White House chief of staff Denis McDonough said during his five-network public relations blitz Sunday to build support for limited strikes against Syrian President Bashar Assad.
"The common-sense test says he is responsible for this. He should be held to account," McDonough said of the Syrian leader who for two years has resisted calls from inside and outside his country to step down.
[font color=red]Text above was all from the article.[/font /color=red]
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)Joe Biden warned of this day. Were we listening? Did we forget?
He said it would happen in the first 6 months--he meant first 6 years.
Gird up your loins.
A generated, international crisis to test Obama's mettle.
He's gonna need us.
Need our help.
To stand with him.
Initially, it won't be apparent that we're right.
Obama will clean the Augean stables.
We'll be asking 'why is this thing so tough?
Why are they down in the polls?'
They'll have to make the tough decisions.
"Remember the faith you had at this point because youre going to have to reinforce us."
Remember?
Prophetic?
Pathetic?
You decide.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2008/10/biden-to-suppor/
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)That although the nation could choose an easy course, (My reply, which would guarantee a decent middle income classed economy, money for superfluous items lime schools and health and safety) we are not a nation of shirkers and we will choose to do difficult things."
So the result of choosing the difficult Nixonian/Kissinger strategy for Vietnam and the US was this one:
1) six million dead, wounded or homeless Vietnamese, with a legacy of cancer and birth defects from the chemical weaponry called Agent Orange, that plagues that nation to this day. Plus 50,000 dead American service people, and another 10,000 that committed suicide within 15 years of returning home
2) At last 20 billions of dollars to pay for the war and make everyone who headed firms like Raytheon and Dow Chemical rich rich rich. (Although 20 billion wouldn't even get 100 rockets out of their wrappers and onto jet fighters in this day and age, which is why our wars cost trillions now.)
But at lest when we fought in Vietnam we were not doing it as mercenaries for Saudi nations and Israel.
Cronus Protagonist
(15,574 posts)All else is propaganda or circumstantial. The powers are following the PNAC plan. They're already into it for several billion dollars - in for a penny, in for a pound. And there's billions of dollars to be made.
jpak
(41,758 posts)period
yup
last1standing
(11,709 posts)n/t