Regarding cruise missiles and airstrikes not being "war"

[WilliamPitt]

...let's hear from an expert:

"We veterans can only look with amazement on the fact that this country has been unable to see there is absolutely no difference between ground troops and a helicopter crew, and yet people have accepted a differentiation fed them by the administration. No ground troops are in Laos, so it is all right to kill Laotians by remote control. But believe me the helicopter crews fill the same body bags and they wreak the same kind of damage on the Vietnamese and Laotian countryside as anybody else and the President is talking about allowing this to go on for many years to come. One can only ask if we will really be satisfied only when the troops march into Hanoi."

- John Kerry, 22 April 1971

But cruise missiles and airstrikes are not "war."

Gotcha.

[KG]

1. It's just embarrassing the shit that's coming out of Kerry's mouth.

[warrant46]

11. The Irony of it all

[newfie11]

2. He's full of shit about ground troops not being in Laos too

My husband was a Navy corpsman with the marines when they did a patrol in Laos!
Polititians can't ever tell the truth.

[malthaussen]

26. But has there ever been an "official" acknowledgement...

... that Laos was invaded by US ground forces? I frankly don't remember, but as Mr Kerry is now part of the administration, he is a part of the official lie machine. He's just doing his job.

(Which is, of course, no excuse)

-- Mal

[antigop]

56. he's doing it at Obama's "behest". yeah, sarcasm. nt

[morningfog]

3. How the mighty have fallen. I have to ask why they want this so badly.

There is a real disconnect going on.

[drynberg]

41. Empire, empire, empire

[Blanks]

47. That's the real question, isn't it. Although I expect that the answer is: follow the money. eom

[lark]

50. MIC profits, profits, profits

That and the fact that Israel wants us to do this are enough to bring us to this point.

[JEB]

67. Maybe to pay back Russia for the Snowden asylum.

Next best thing to bombing Iran.

[el_bryanto]

4. They don't have the same commitment of resources

That sending in ground troops entails. Obviously they might lead to sending in Ground Troops, but until and unless that happens, dropping bombs should be less of a commitment.

Obviously it will still kill people including civilians which is why we probably shouldn't do it. But there is a clear distinction between what is being proposed and a full scale invasion.

Bryant

[Warren Stupidity]

5. JKerry: lost in place. nt.

[MindPilot]

6. A lot like all the varying degrees of rape.

It is limited sexual assault; not really rape.

Not even the Bush administration had to pitch the Iraq invasion with "it's not really war, we are just going to blow up some shit and kill people with multi-million-dollar missiles, but it is not war".

When military action has to be sold to the American people under such bizarre pretense as defining a 100 or so missiles aimed at command and control facilities as "not war", then I think the obvious conclusion is that aforementioned military action may be ill-advised.

[Blanks]

48. It's in the definition of war that's the problem.

If the only entity authorized to declare war according to the constitution is congress. Then all that we have to do is define the word 'war' more narrowly.

To me, it is war any time we utilize our military to explode ordinances, or discharge small firearms, with the intent to destroy (outside of training), kill or maim.

[progressoid]

7. But it's gonna be a "humanitarian" airstrike.

So there.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. Complete with "humanitarian" free fire zones.

[RC]

70. Yep, we's gonna kills them humanely.

So's that's makes it "Not War!"! <--- <---Smilie for the war hawks here, who do not recognize sarcasm, carrying the gallon jugs of Administration kool-aid, .

[treestar]

8. Here's an article at least addressing that:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/08/30/the-war-powers-act-is-pretty-unclear-about-whether-congress-gets-a-vote-on-syria

That appears to be an issue. What crosses the threshold. The relevant considerations would be the War Powers Act and any cases interpreting it, not Kerry's prior statements.

[Supersedeas]

46. Which war powers act do you speak of?

The War Powers Act of 1941 was limited to the execution of WWII

The Second War Powers Act strengthened the first by limiting the Hatch Act.

Was there a Congressional Act declaring War on Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Iraq and Afghanistan pursuant to Article I, Section 8 (11) of the enumerated powers of Congress?

True there was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution (how can we forget) but that's not the same as a Congressional declaration of war.
But then there is the War Powers Resolution of 1973, which specifically limits the President's Power to commit armed forces.

See: 50 USC Sec. 1544.

How much damage can a modern President do in 60 days?

[bullwinkle428]

9. At the risk of coming across as a shameless self-promoter, I posted kind

of a duplicate thread shortly before you, WP, but I'm still happy to K&R.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023594807

[L0oniX]

64. Message hidden by jury decision.

You dirty rotten stinking shameless self-promoter

[ProSense]

10. It's a great quote

"We veterans can only look with amazement on the fact that this country has been unable to see there is absolutely no difference between ground troops and a helicopter crew, and yet people have accepted a differentiation fed them by the administration. No ground troops are in Laos, so it is all right to kill Laotians by remote control. But believe me the helicopter crews fill the same body bags and they wreak the same kind of damage on the Vietnamese and Laotian countryside as anybody else and the President is talking about allowing this to go on for many years to come. One can only ask if we will really be satisfied only when the troops march into Hanoi."

Secretary Kerry certainly isn't advocating carpet bombing Syria and killing tens of thousands of people.

"Secretary of State John Kerry delivered a fiery rebuke to...Sen. Rand Paul’s line of questioning"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023590177

[warrant46]

12. I'm sure Cluster bombs and Napalm are OK ?

[FarCenter]

28. Well, Napalm is not a chemical....

And dying from Napalm burns over a few days is so quick and humane.

[warrant46]

29. LOL-- NT

[arcane1]

13. How many bombs and how many deaths are the threshold between war & not-war?

[GeorgeGist]

19. No Body Bags to fill.

That's NonSense.

[zeemike]

34. How many people dose he want to kill?

Is a thousand to many?....to little?
Perhaps a little eye for an eye and we kill as many as died in the attack?
But carpet bombing is so old school...we have smart weapons now and we don't send B-52s in to do the job a cruse missile can do, and make more profit for the defense contractors while doing it....a win win right?

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

37. What, then is war in the "classic" sense?

Bombs, bullets, missiles, guns, death, killing, dismemberment, tell me how this is not war.
Limited still counts. Only you who I can bet have never seen any military action could accept that premise.

I have given you room to cut and paste my comment.

Steal a dime you steal a dollar. What's the diff?

I want to add a******, but I really can't.

[lark]

51. So 100 cruise missiles isn't much?

Russia sending nuclear subs to the region isn't a concern?

Is there anything Obama could even conceivably do that you wouldn't cheer for?

[yurbud]

59. how about white phosphorous or depleted uranium?

Are those good for punishing the use of chemical weapons?

[rhett o rick]

66. One has to admire your devotion to the authoritarian state.

"Secretary Kerry certainly isn't advocating carpet bombing Syria and killing tens of thousands of people. " Yes, he certainly isnt. Wait. How do you know that? Certainty is for the conservative closed-minded among us. Open minded liberals always are skeptical. But I understand how tempting it is to blindly follow the authoritarian leaders that promise to take care of you.

Pres Johnson didnt advocate carpet bombing when he lied America into war in Vietnam. It was just unavoidable.

I stand against the MIC. Where do you stand? It's a rhetorical question. You stand where Obama tells you too.

[Hutzpa]

14. According to that logic

people dying from missiles and airstrikes are just in the way of the bombs being dropped on them.

[msongs]

15. so the 9/11 "missles" were not war either. nt

[silvershadow]

16. It would mean that if they were landing here. Just sayin'. nt

[avaistheone1]

18. No doubt it would.

[reformist2]

17. So, it's not war if Syria were to launch missiles?! Or is it only the US that gets the free pass?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. not just the US. White majority countries get a pass

you know, UK. USA. France. etc

[GeorgeGist]

21. We won the Cold War ...

we get to wear the White Hat!!!!

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Until someone kicks our ass.

[myrna minx]

22. His "arguments" are so surreal and I'm just gobsmacked.

Is this really happening?

[reformist2]

25. It's one of those eye opening moments, when you first see the strings making the puppets move.

We may continue to vote the same way as before, but the show is never really the same again.

[MisterP]

32. the only ones they convince are those who try to shame us for not believing that "X must be true

because Y said it"

[yurbud]

58. that was the feeling I first had after 9/11. the attack was bad enough, but

The complete detachment from reality and history of the response was much worse. Out was like realizing Charles Manson was running the country and the media and a lot of the public acted like it was perfectly reasonable and normal.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

23. "airstrikes are not 'war'."?

[Aerows]

24. If a cruise missile hit DC

(besides doing us all a favor if Congress was in session), we'd call it war. And yes, I'm kidding, but we have the most useless Congress in history. Their most important debate would be to let the toilet paper roll fall over the top or hang under the bottom and call themselves successful if they could come to concession.

It's like 3 year olds deciding who makes the best tasting mud pies.

[tridim]

27. Yes, airstrikes DURING A WAR are considered a part of that "war".

But I'm not a Neo-DU'er, so that's obvious.

[PoliticAverse]

30. From yesterday: Kerry - "I had feelings very similar to that protester"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/john-kerry-acknowledges-code-pink-protester-i-had-very-similar-feelings-after-vietnam/

[blkmusclmachine]

31. Kerry was against it, before he was for it.

[grahamhgreen]

44. The ultimate flip flop, I guess.

[DeSwiss]

33. He was for war......

...before he was against it. But then he saw how bad it was so then he was against war. When before he was for it. But now he's no longer against war, and he's now for it again.

- Kinda......

K&R

Ed McMahon: ''Oh Carnac The Magnificent, mystical sage that you are -- I hold in my hands a letter that has been hermetically-sealed and placed inside a mayonnaise jar, held on Funk and Wagnall's back porch until NOON TODAY! NO ONE! No one has seen the contents of this letter. But you with your strange and mysterious powers of divination shall reveal to us their contents without opening it.'' {hands him the letter}

Carnac The Magnificent: {holds letter to his head and closes his eyes} ''A shitload.''

Ed McMahon: {annoyingly repeating} ''A shitload.''

Carnac The Magnificent: {glares at Ed, then says} ''How much money will Congress make from the defense industry, if they vote in favor of bombing Syria?''

[CrispyQ]

42. Yep. Keep the MIC going & keep the region disrupted until they can get to Iran.

In the meantime, make out on the stock market.

That's what I think.

[OnyxCollie]

49. All the money Kerry makes from defense contracts is from the sales of ketchup and pickles.

I was told so by a longtime DUer with a severe KerryCrush™.

[indepat]

35. The cruise missiles and air-strikes thingy is astoundingly ludicrous on its face considering how, as

a nation, the American people reacted to Pearl Harbor and to 9-11. I would say Jesus H. Christ were it not blasphemous.

[Zorra]

36. "John Kerry was just a young, idealistic hippie radical back then. He's a sensible grown-up now!"

[CRH]

69. Shame on you !!! ...

John Kerry has never been close to a hippie. I wish I could be a hippie again, and not grown up.

Oh wait, I am.

[Zorra]

71. Hey now, don't shoot the messenger.

I'm right there with ya ~ can't even remember the last time I wore anything but flip flops on my feet.

[grahamhgreen]

39. "War is thus an act of force to compel our enemy to do our will." -Von Clauswitz

[frylock]

40. john kerry is honorable and courageous..

<spoke in a robotic monotone>

[drynberg]

43. Kerry has drunk the Empirical KoolAide

Lies mean nothing to those on this heady brew! But it is still a big friggin' LIE.

[Dr Fate]

45. I'm glad Kerry is trying to fool the liberals.

If the liberals have their way, the President will be embarassed and forced to look week.

LOL! By the time they get done splitting hairs on what to call it, the Winds of Freedom will already be blowing through the hair of every boy & girl in Syria.

Liberlas can call it what they want- we are bombing these bastards back into the stone age. I'm tired of hearing about "Syria" and all of the mischief they must be causing.

[David__77]

52. They might also think that flying planes into skyscrapers isn't war.

But I sure think a lot of New Yorkers felt like al Qaeda declared war on 9/11. This formalism is puerile.

[Eleanors38]

53. ...And 200,000 Japanese marines stormed Waikiki in 1941!

[Autumn]

54. This is a wound that strikes to the heart.

rec

[Curmudgeoness]

55. Let some other country launch missiles and airstrikes against us

and see if we don't change our tune.....in a heartbeat.

[yurbud]

57. that should be on a billboard outside his office window.

[HereSince1628]

60. If only one side uses munitions, and only the other side dies...it isn't war

Massacres, assassinations, and destruction of property can happen without war.

In wars, two sides show up and battle each other.

I get the feeling the US is NOT intending on having Americans anywhere near battles.

[Blue Owl]

61. Ground Control to Commander John

n/t

[Snake Plissken]

62. It's kind of like peppering someone in the face with birdshot is not shooting them

[L0oniX]

63. A Taste of Armageddon - Star Trek

Only for those who remember.

[Triana]

65. How many John Kerrys are there?

Seems to be at least a couple. I don't care what he calls it . . .

http://www.sevenbowie.com/2013/09/bombing-syria-isnt-war-kerry-says-but-i-dont-care-what-he-calls-it/

[Eko]

68. War

War is an organized and often prolonged armed conflict that is carried out by states or non-state actors. It is characterized by extreme violence, social disruption, and economic destruction. War should be understood as an actual, intentional and widespread armed conflict between political communities, and therefore is defined as a form of political violence or intervention.

So yes, a limited conflict that causes directed and minimal damage is not a war. Destroying an entire fleet is war, destroying a few bases is not.

[Dawgs]

72. That is a powerful statement in so many ways.

Just wow.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

73. Nope. Not war.