Homemade canisters and sarin gas without stabilizers??

[polichick]

Anyone see UP with Steve Kornacki today? A female guest who worked in both Bush and Clinton administrations (not a political appointee) said that the canisters found in Syria were homemade, not the type any country's military uses, and that the sarin was without the stabilizers you'd expect.

She said that Chinese and Russian inspectors are still on the ground there, but that none of this info (re canisters and non-stabilized sarin) is being reported here in the U.S.

She also said that during the run up to Iraq she was in the room when Clinton approved of the plan, saying the evidence was good - suggesting that both Republicans and Dems are fine with "evidence" that isn't actually evidence. She also suggested that the homemade canisters and type of sarin makes her think of al Qaeda.

A riveting guest I thought. Did anyone see her and get her name? Couldn't find it online yet.

On edit: It was Hillary Mann Leverett (thanks to BigDarryl)
Edit 2: typo
Edit 3: About Hillary Mann Leverett: http://www.american.edu/sis/faculty/leverett.cfm

[Little Star]

1. I hope someone answers you or you eventually find it online. I'm curious.

[polichick]

2. Me too. I was so fascinated by what she was saying I didn't think to read her name...

She sounded almost frantic and spoke over some of the other guests because she thought it was so important for people to know.

[polichick]

4. It was Hillary Mann Leverett (just edited my post)

[leveymg]

63. Here are some of those devices - they do look homemade and incapable of flying 5-10 miles to target.

Last edited Sun Sep 1, 2013, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)

They look like they would be highly inaccurate at any significant distance, which is why they are unlikely to have been the weapon used in the attack of 8/21, if the US target map is accurate along with the statement that they were launched from government-held territory.

Here's a rocket similar to the ones described as being used in the attack:



Here's the State Dept. map of the 12 alleged targets in the North Damascus suburbs. Note the distances of some of the targeted neighborhoods from government-held territory (in pink):



Here's another photo from the DailyMail, showing a UN weapons inspector with the same type of rocket:

[polichick]

66. Yes, that looks homemade. As far as the map goes, I'd rather see something...

from the UN than the U.S. - we always have a conflict of interest when it comes to the mic and the Middle East.

[aquart]

77. You have those shapes available at home?

I don't. Looks standardized.

[lumpy]

68. The weapons inspectors might know more about weapons that were used in the Syrian

gas attacks. Random speculation is useless.

[leveymg]

76. Here's a photo (Daily Mail) of a UN inspector with the same type of rocket:

[DirkGently]

3. Interesting.

Regardless, though, there are atrocities on both sides. The rebels include our supposed arch enemy radical Islamists, who are reportedly sawing the heads off children with bread knives.

The war justification is a scam. Again.

[polichick]

5. I agree, just another scam (maybe because of the Syrian pipeline?)...

Hillary Mann Leverett was very concerned about al Qaeda getting stronger if we strike.

[Little Star]

9. Bingo! .....

This whole Syria thing is about protecting our/our allies interests. It has ziltch to do with the gassing of people during Syria's civil war. It's really all about the protection our own & TPTB's interests. Why the dog & pony show about those poor people who were gassed during a civil war?

Syria–Turkey connection

In 2006 Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon and Romania reached an agreement to build the pipeline's extension through Syria to the Turkish border. From there, the pipeline would have been connected to the possible Nabucco Pipeline for the delivery of gas to Europe. Turkey forecasted buying up to 4 billion cubic metres (140 billion cubic feet) of gas per year from the Arab Gas Pipeline.[19] In 2008 Turkey and Syria signed an agreement to construct a 63 kilometres (39 mi) pipeline between Aleppo and Kilis as a first segment of the Syria-Turkey connection of the Arab Gas Pipeline[20][21] and Stroytransgaz signed a US$71 million contract for the construction of this section.[22] However this contract was annulled at the beginning of 2009 and it was re-tendered. From Kilis, a 15-kilometre (9.3 mi) long pipeline with a diameter of 12 inches (300 mm) would connect the pipeline with the Turkish grid thus allowing the Turkish grid to be supplied via the Syrian grid even before completing the Homs–Aleppo segment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Gas_Pipeline#Syria.E2.80.93Turkey_connection

Note: I already said this in another thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023569321 The OP was great & the comments were interesting.

[polichick]

11. Thanks! I had been looking for that thread.

[Little Star]

6. The war justification is a scam, yes it is.......

It made me sad to see Kerry out there yesterday trying to sell it. He's not dumb enough to believe what he said is the real reason they want this war. Just doing his job I suppose but it was sad to watch this anti war guy trying to sell war to us.

[Igel]

52. Think it through.

He might be misinformed. This information might be wrong so he's actually well informed.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that this evidence is right and known to be true.

In that case, Kerry is one of two things.

He's stupid, for not accepting the "true" evidence. You can be a good person and stupid.

Or he's craven and immoral for just doing his job--the Nurnberg defense--when he ought to know better. You can be a smart person and be corrupt and immoral.

A stupid but good person can find a useful and productive role in society.

A smart but immoral person is a danger to society.

Given the choice, I'd rather say Kerry was stupid but good than intelligent and craven.

In the end, I'd prefer smart and moral. I'm not going to rule out stupid and craven, however. Such things take years of analysis to rip aside what handlers and keepers create to reveal the real politician. Mostly, though, they just turn out--pretty much all of them--to be only moderately smart and, at best, only moderately moral. They all turn out to be driven by ambition.

[lumpy]

70. Sorry, I don't think many people here are thinking anything through re. Syria

The tendency is to immediately take sides with insufficient thought and information.
"A smart but immoral person is a danger to society"- Mr. Cheney might well fit the bill.

[Little Star]

82. +1

[DURHAM D]

7. She is a Harvard Law grad so I am surprised that

Obama doesn't have her in the room.

[polichick]

16. She mentioned that some on his team have been interested in Syria for a long time.

[TorchTheWitch]

8. was this the report of sarin canisters found in Turkey?

That suddenly got wiped off nearly every reputable news site?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/30/us-syria-crisis-turkey-idUSBRE94T0YO20130530

[Little Star]

10. Yep! Woosh & gone.

[TorchTheWitch]

14. I noticed that whoosh & gone happened right when the US

started blaming Assad publicly.

[Little Star]

20. True. And now you can mostly only find it on RW sites....

So DU won't even consider it. Got locked in LBN because of the source. Me, I always keep up with what the RW is saying. 99.9% of the time they are nuts but every once in a while they say/show/publish something true. That's just me though.

[polichick]

13. She was talking about the canisters used in Syria.

[TorchTheWitch]

17. Which likely had a connection to the worst of the rebels

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/30/us-syria-crisis-turkey-idUSBRE94T0YO20130530
<snip>
"Earlier, several Turkish newspapers had reported that 12 people from Syria's al Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front who allegedly had been planning an attack inside Turkey and were in possession of 2 kg (4.5 pounds) of sarin, had been detained in Adana.

The raids highlight the growing concern that Syria's civil war is dragging in neighboring states.

In the worst example of the spillover into Turkey, 52 people were killed when twin car bombs ripped through the border town of Reyhanli on May 11. Turkey has accused Syria of involvement in the attacks, but Damascus has denied any role.

Nusra is one of the most effective forces fighting President Bashar al-Assad and last month pledged allegiance to al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri. The U.S. State Department designated Nusra as a terrorist organization in December.

Experts have long said Nusra is receiving support from al Qaeda-linked militants in neighboring Iraq. The group claimed responsibility for deadly bombings in Damascus and Aleppo, and its fighters have joined other Syrian rebel brigades."

[polichick]

19. Yes, that seemed to be one of her big concerns...

the link with the worst of the rebels - and the lack of reporting here in the U.S.

She said it wasn't just the Bush admin., but also the media that pushed us into war in Iraq.

[TorchTheWitch]

25. and here we are again

Having all our communications data minded with the excuse that they're looking for all Queda terrorists yet they want to bomb Syria for a sarin attack that was most likely the rebels the worst of which are officially al Queda connected. And whether it was them or Assad that used it still helps these psychos and gives them access to Syria's chemical weapon stockpiles they'll be more than happy to use here in the good ol US of A.

[aquart]

78. So now we know she's a responsibility-dodging liar.

The media was Bush's stenographer on Iraq. They did as they were told.

[Aerows]

51. Every time I bring that up

I get *crickets*.

[lumpy]

56. In what capacity would she have info regarding the canisters used in Syria ?

n

[polichick]

58. As I understand it, she was referring to reporting overseas that's not making it here.

[lumpy]

72. It would be interesting to know her sources.

n

[TomClash]

12. This is the dissenting side of the internal USG struggle

She and her husband are part of the anti-neocon wing.

[polichick]

15. Well, then I'm with her - since the neocons are all about bogus evidence...

enabling the mic to do what it's been planning all along.

Seems Republican and Democratic neocons are pretty much the same.

[TomClash]

18. No question about that

Neo-cons cross party lines, though two ethnic groups dominate the ideology.

I'm with her too.

[polichick]

22. So how is Obama involved with them?...

Is it that he's surrounded himself with them unwittingly - or is it that he thinks the same way?

[TorchTheWitch]

26. he'd have to be the biggest idiot in the world

to have surrounded himself with the likes of them (and you can add Summers and all the other bank robbers to the list as well) without realizing it. Good grief, of COURSE he's doing it on purpose.

[polichick]

28. That's what I can't get around. I've met him; he's no dummy...

How could he NOT know what he's doing.

So his campaign rhetoric about "dumb wars" was just bullshit.

If voters don't get that neither party is our friend now, they never will.

(Unless, he's not really the one in charge.)

[Little Star]

21. Republican and Democratic neocons are pretty much the same, yes they are.

[polichick]

23. I would so like to know how Obama fits in with these guys.

[Little Star]

24. I think forced in by TPTB is more like it. JMHO......

Same with John Kerry.

[polichick]

29. I've met both Obama and Kerry and liked them...

I can't believe that they're too stupid not to know what's happening - but I can believe that they're not the ones in power, that they don't really have a choice.

[Little Star]

31. That's where I'm at.

[Arctic Dave]

27. Whoa!

Now that IS a turn of events if true.


Round up the usual suspects. Looks like they are fabricating another war.

[polichick]

30. "fabricating another war" - that's what she seemed to be implying.

[lumpy]

74. War is easy to 'fabricate' when the people in charge of a country are guilty of atrocity against

their people. There are usually good reasons/excuses for war against atrocity. The thing is, who cares enough to get embroiled with the risk/pain it envolves.

[obxhead]

32. Shhhhhh.

Think of the CHILDREN! We don't need to know about anything else.

(yes, it is a tragedy and children were needlessly killed. However our response will have NOTHING to do with the children or the families left behind in mourning.)

[polichick]

35. Apparently they think we're all children who don't need to know...

Children who pay the taxes that fund the mic in all their profit-making adventures.

[aquart]

33. Who does Leverett work for now?

[polichick]

34. American University...

http://www.american.edu/sis/faculty/leverett.cfm

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. well if this turns out to be true and the story does get coverage - a whole lot of people are going

to be very, very disappointed

[Junkdrawer]

38. Russia and China have a voice. This WILL get vetted at the UN.

It will take time, but assigning blame to Assad is no "Slam Dunk".

[L0oniX]

71. But Agent Mike has said that we should not read RT news anymore for our own good.

Ya think maybe they (our gov) don't want anyone to know the truth? They do try to control information and also put out disinformation IMO.

[pnwmom]

37. I'll believe it if it's in the UN report. n/t

[polichick]

43. Let's hope the prez waits for that report.

[niyad]

39. wasn't there some report the other day that the rebels admitted they were mishandling the chemical

weapons?

[polichick]

41. Here's one of several threads that have been locked:

http://election.democraticunderground.com/1014581369

[Maedhros]

44. Did anyone post the original article from Mint Press News?

It isn't a right-wing site and while new, appears to be credible.

[polichick]

45. Don't know, but feel free to add it here.

[Maedhros]

46. Here is the original article that was referenced by a number of blogs:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

Byline: Dale Gavlak and Yahya Ababneh

Dale Gavlak is a credible reporter who has worked for the Associated Press:

http://bigstory.ap.org/author/dale-gavlak

the BBC:

e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21147461

and NPR.

Yahya Ababneh is a Jordanian freelance journalist and is currently working on a master's degree in journalism.

Here is a story on Mint Press News by the Minnesota Post:

http://www.minnpost.com/david-brauer-blog/2012/01/who-mintpress-and-why-are-they-doing-all-hiring

[polichick]

47. Thank-you for all this - it deserves its own thread imo...

Hope you start one.

[Maedhros]

48. Done.

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023576316

[polichick]

49. Great! k&r'd

[rhett o rick]

80. The thread you referred to got locked because it was in LBN w/o a decent source.

The same article stands at this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3577262

[lumpy]

75. Conflicting reports re.this. Some say the rebels admit the gas attack. Some say the rebels

mishandled their chemical weapons causing damage to their own troops.

[BlueMTexpat]

40. This is a very interesting report and Ms Leverett

sounds quite knowledgeable.

But I have some confusion with this part: "She also said that during the run up to Iraq she was in the room when Clinton approved of the plan, saying the evidence was good - suggesting that both Republicans and Dems are fine with "evidence" that isn't actually evidence."

Which Clinton is she referring to? Bill was not President during the run up to Iraq. While Hillary did vote for the IWR (which is something that I certainly did not support), as did several other Dem Senators, which certainly makes the rest of the statement true, that was never a secret and Hillary would not have warranted a special briefing as this seems to imply.

Of course, I did not see the segment you mention. I wish that I had. Perhaps I am reading something into your statement that isn't there. If so, my bad.

[polichick]

42. It was Bill - and her point was that he didn't have a problem with the "evidence"...

She seemed to be using that incident as an example of Dems not being immune to the drumbeat of war.

(Bill Clinton wasn't being asked for permission, just briefed about it.)

[lumpy]

64. In what capacity was Bill Clinton "in the room" regarding the runup to Iraq conversation ?

I assume that Leverett is referring as to what Bill Clinton's opinion was re. the Iraqi war.
Since Bush was president at the time this was Clinton's opinion ?
If possible, since we don't have access to Ms. Leverett's TV appearance, could you maybe fill in some of the gaps in your report ?

[polichick]

65. Ms. Leverett was "in the room" when Clinton was told about the evidence...

sometime during the run-up to war. She was with others as they spoke with Clinton about it. This doesn't mean the Bush admin. was asking his permission for anything.

[lumpy]

50. The information is so sketchy, hard to make head nor tails out of it.

Ms. Leverett worked for the government during Bush and Clinton administ. Run up to Iraq Clinton(?) was present in some room/approved some plan ?
Leverett said canisters in Syria were homemade
Chinese and Russians inspectors still in Syria. Not reported in US.

Very difficult to understand what this is even about with very little information. Is there any information available other than this sketchy account ?

[polichick]

53. The Clinton part is explained just above your post...

I imagine the video clip will be available online at some point - she spoke for quite a while.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

54. Chinese & Russian inspectors have huge conflict of interest. Their governments support Assad bigtime

The Chinese and Russian governments are looking down the road to the day when their populaces will rise up to gain and gain back (respectively) democratic rights and freedoms. The ChiComs and the Russian Right Wing Authoritarians want to be able to use Assad strategy and tactics against their own people when the time comes.

[polichick]

59. Problem is they all have conflicts of interest - including the U.S.

[Spider Jerusalem]

55. I'm not sure I'd trust the reports of "Chinese and Russian inspectors"

if this information didn't come from the UN inspection team (which hasn't released its report yet), then it's suspect.

[polichick]

60. I wouldn't trust theirs or ours - hopefully the prez will wait for a UN report.

[PDJane]

57. It's a personal belief that al Qaeda is a triumph of propaganda.

Al Quaeda is not an organized group, the way that, say, a union is. It's an amorphous thing. I suggest that everyone remember that the US funded Al Qaeda in various points. It began as an Islamist mercenary group. When people talk about sarin gas in homemade cannisters, ask yourself where they would get the contents for such a thing? How would they do that? Why would they do that?

I think it would be a Very Good Thing if everyone here remembers that there is a propaganda war going on. Both the CIA and Israel are involved, it's shoving Egypt out of the news, and the US prefers dictators in its client states; they're much easier to deal with.

[polichick]

62. Agreed - I've been talking about a "propaganda war" since high school Amer. Hist. class...

and it's worse and more complicated than ever!

[lumpy]

67. We're not getting the answers to anything, just a heap of propaganda from several sources

with their personal agendas. People should be cautious about what to believe. Sometimes better to wait and see before making up the mind.

[KurtNYC]

69. This BBC documentary details how the last 40 years or so got us here

Their basic is premise is that the AQ network that existed before 9/11/01 was destroyed rapidly thereafter but it was replaced by a useful fantasy:

[polichick]

73. Fascinating. FEAR is a easiest way to control people and politicians sure needed...

something as the Cold War drew to an end.

[Autumn]

88. I have that on DVD. It's fascinating.

[FarCenter]

79. Sarin gas was invented in 1938

How hard can it be to make Sarin, since it is 75 year old technology?

[PDJane]

84. The answer is that the gas can be made fairly easily, but it isn't as simple as all that.

You can mix it, you can get the chemicals, but it degrades fairly quickly. It was used on the Tokyo subway at one point; that attack left ten people dead. If you want to actually use it as a mass weapon, it does require purer ingredients, some additives, and ways to get the stuff into the air.

It's easy...and it isn't, which is the general answer to most of these things. Crude Sarin is easy, yes. You can order it on the net, and receive the stuff via ups the next day. But, if the chemicals aren't pure, the stuff will last anywhere from a few hours to a few months...which was why the weapons inspectors wanted to get in there, like yesterday.

However, no matter how easy it is to make, there's still the question of who and why and how would it be delivered? If the rebels have jets, they're better armed than most, and why would they bother gassing their own people with such a crude weapon?

I would point out that who made the weapons still doesn't answer the question of the fact that Al Qaeda is a triumph of propaganda, and they've managed to make the American people tremble in their boots every time someone mentions the bogeyman.

[FarCenter]

86. Unlike nuclear weapons, its well within the capability of most nation states, e.g. Saudi Arabia

Or within the capability of any major chemical company, especially any that make organophosphate pesticides.

The plant would fit into a nondescript building on a average military base or research establishment. The US and others were making shells and rockets in volume back in the 50s, so the kinks in manufacturing and storage have been worked out for half a century.

[PDJane]

87. Again, yes and no.

It's deceptively simple, but longevity is still a problem. That requires really pure chemicals, one or two additives, and a way of storing the stuff. If done really well, it can be stored as two separate chemicals and stored in aluminum capsules, to be mixed just before contact. That takes a bit of expertise.

However, Britain sold Assad nerve gas 10 months after the conflict began, so if we're talking about Assad, he doesn't have to worry about any of it.

[AzDar]

61. Huh.

[magical thyme]

81. here is the video link

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/up/52898946/

Watch it and weep. 4 or 5 against 1, she more than held her own.

[polichick]

83. Excellent - thanks!

[Yavin4]

85. Her evidence is Chinese and Russian inspectors.

And we all know that Chinese and Russian govt officials are always above board.

[polichick]

91. Unfortunately, our officials aren't above board either.

[Yavin4]

92. Does that make her sources reliable?

By what logic?

[polichick]

93. Who knows? Are "our" sources reliable this time?

[Catherina]

89. And here's the embedded youtube

Thanks for posting this. I kept your thread open so I wouldn't forget to watch it.

Edit, she did great. Get those other asses off the air.

[polichick]

90. Thanks! I wonder if she'll be a guest in the coming days, or if...

the powers that be will silence her.