"If you send your kid to private school, you are a bad person"

[philosslayer]

A provocative title, but compelling article. The author states it better than I ever could. This is what happens when we bail on public education instead of giving it our full and enthusiastic support.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/private_school_vs_public_school_only_bad_people_send_their_kids_to_private.html

[Dreamer Tatum]

1. Unless you are a rich Dem who says nice things about public schools. You forgot that. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

2. Nonsense.

If you don't support decent levels of taxation to fund public schools, you are a bad person.

If you then choose not to use them, you are arguably *helping* those who do, by increasing the funding per pupil.

[frazzled]

3. I agree it doesn't make you bad, but it doesn't increase the funding per pupil

States don't allocate a certain pot of money for education, and then if some people choose not to use the schools, the money gets divided among those left.

States generally allocate funds on a per pupil basis. So fewer kids in the schools, the less total money (though not less per pupil). (Note also that the per pupil allocation is often based on daily attendance; so when schools have a lot of absenteeism, they lose money per kid/per day.)

[aikoaiko]

5. That's true for state funding, but aren't most schools funded through local property taxes?

[Gormy Cuss]

8. Only for a portion of the costs.

States and Federal funding make up the rest and much of that funding is on a per pupil basis.

[Mariana]

21. So the state and federal funding are allocated per pupil.

The local funding is not. Is that right?

[Gormy Cuss]

42. I don't know how it's handled locally across the country.

There's probably some estimation of population size used to assess whether the property tax yield will be sufficient but that's not the same as a funding based on student body size.

[Ms. Toad]

102. In many instances these days,

the money follows the student including, in some instances, to private schools. So you are actively decreasing the overall funding for the school without significantly decreasing the costs for the school.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

105. Supporting state funding of private schools *is* morally wrong, I agree.

Everyone should have to pay taxes to support state education.

People should then be free to choose whether to use it, or to spend more money on private education.

[Ms. Toad]

106. The problem with that reasoning is set out in the article

When people who can leave the public schools do, the public schools fail. People who have resources to create the change are not motivated to do so when their children are not at risk. So even if their money is in the public school system, their ability to make change isn't.

That's the theory - and easy for me to implement because my public school is decent. But had we not moved from the failing school district we used to live in I would have had to make tough choices about whether to sacrifice my daughter's education for my principles about the importance of people with means staying and making the system better.

[Xithras]

4. If you willingly undermine your childs education for the good of "society", you're an unfit parent.

The author herself says "It could take generations. Your children and grandchildren might get mediocre educations in the meantime, but it will be worth it, for the eventual common good."

And on that, I call ten helpings of bullshit. Some of us live in areas with abysmal right-wing public school systems that churn out students barely educated enough to compete with other students from OUR OWN STATE for spots in our public universities. What the author is saying is essentially, "If you live in a poor area and your local school system sucks, you should condemn your child to continue that poverty by denying them an education that will allow them to overcome it...on the off-chance that the system might improve for their grandchildren".

My oldest daughter went through public schools, graduated second in her HS class, and barely squeaked into one of the top UC's in California. Once there, she failed miserably for her first year. Her public school education left her completely unprepared for the rigors and expectations of UC academics. More importantly, when discussing her problems with her friends, she was shocked at how sub-par her academic skills were when she compared them to her friends and roommates who graduated from public high schools in the SF Bay Area or the Los Angeles region. I live in one of the poorest regions in California, and it reflects in the relative quality of our educational system.

Both of my younger children were moved into private schools soon after that. Both struggled to catch up with their classmates right after the transition, but both are doing great now, and both are academically far ahead of their friends who are still in the public school system. And contrary to the authors assertions, I have far more interest in improving our local school systems NOW than I did when my children were actually attending. That check I cut to pay for their private schools is a HUGE motivator to get me active in our local public school district and improve things. The fact that a parent, in my area, has to cut a check to a private school in order to secure a quality education for their child is a travesty. There are many other things that I'd much rather be spending that money on (like paying bills, or going on vacation...which I haven't done in 9 years, or saving for retirement).

As parents, our #1 job is to put our children on the best footing possible to live happy, successful lives. If you increase your child's odds of living in poverty and failing at their life goals by denying them the best education possible, then you are failing them as a parent. It's one thing if you can't afford to give your child a hand up because you don't have the resources, but when you DO have the resources and deny them to your child, you are making the choice to lower your own child's horizons and reduce their opportunities just to make a social statement. I can't even wrap my mind about the thought processes that would lead a parent to make a choice like that.

[Goblinmonger]

26. Private schools are not defacto better.

To argue such is silly. Are some private schools better than some public schools? Yes. And vice versa.

[pnwmom]

29. No one is making that argument. The person you replied to said that SOME public

schools are poor and that good parents are justified in considering alternatives for their children. And that the poster had had such an experience. When s/he realized the oldest child had been so poorly prepared for college, despite being ranked #2 at her high school, s/he put the younger children in private schools. That, and home-schooling, are the only alternatives for people who live in poor public districts and can't move.

[Xithras]

35. And I'd never claim that they were.

Some private schools are better than some public schools. Some public schools are better than most private schools. All schools are different, and there is no blanket claim that can accurately compare the two.

In my case, the region I live in boasts some of the worst public schools in the state, and is run by a board heavily populated with book banning right wingers. In our case, the private school we found was academically superior to local public schools. Your mileage may vary.

[pnwmom]

28. Yes. A good parent doesn't sacrifice his or her children's well being for the sake of

idealistic social goals that may or may not be realized generations in the future.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. Wonderfully written

My father was President of the school board - and chose not to run again and my parents chose to send my brother to an inner city Magnet School (we were rural) and two years later I went to a Private Parochial School (brother was the last black kid allowed to 'slide into' the inner city via Urban Suburban Program).

Hip deep in the muck - he saw that the community was 'happy' with substandard education and were even willing to get rid of the extended studies program that his children were in. The school district also had a habit of graduating through the townies kids - who eventually flunked out of their ivy league schools.

They never voted against a budget that expands education - but they had to make the choice to give us a rigorous education if they could. So they did.

I started at University in 1991 with a friend from my hometown. She struggled miserably through basic English 101. They had never read Achebe, Oates, Salinger, Walker . . . She had never had to write a collegiate level Essay and had not taken any A.P. classes as they were not available in my home district.

My dad graduated from a still segregated school in Talladega Alabama in the 1950's and my mom graduated from Lake Tahoe high school in the 1960's. They knew first hand what a rural education provided - misery when you got to University.

They tried the best they could to change the district - but if you can't change the district - change the environment for your children. Sometimes you really can't fight an entrenched in failure Town(ie) Hall.

[aikoaiko]

6. If that makes me bad, then I don't want to be good.

I had great public schools as a kid. My parents paid 5K in property taxes back in the 1980s just to live in that town for the schools. While my parents were middle class it was an very affluent area. My high school had its own planetarium and electron microscope.

[MicaelS]

7. "Don’t just acknowledge your liberal guilt"

At least she had the honesty to admit that this is what her essay is really about. One thing that the left is always good at is finding something to be guilty about. If a current issue isn't enough to be feel guilty about, then a new one will be found.

With all the Zero Tolerance bullshit in public schools, there is no way in hell I would send my children to a public school, if I could afford it.

But then I don't have kids.

[LittleBlue]

10. Sorry, I don't believe this at all

Parents will want what's best for their children. Often that means private schools.

The shaming aspect of it is worse. Perhaps Allison Benedikt, the author, is a judgmental prick.

I'll double down on her shame by saying she must be an awful mother to disregard the welfare of her children. Ha!

[The2ndWheel]

13. Well she does write

"I am not an education policy wonk: I’m just judgmental."

at the start of the second paragraph.

[LittleBlue]

14. Yeah I saw that

She's dishing abuse, she entitled to some in return.

[The2ndWheel]

16. No doubt

Not a good way to win people over.

[Boom Sound 416]

17. So parents have power but

"I went K–12 to a terrible public school. My high school didn’t offer AP classes, and in four years, I only had to read one book. There wasn’t even soccer"
--
Rrriiiighht

[Logical]

53. LOL, guess you are not a big picture type. n-t

[brooklynite]

11. So if I buy a book in a bookstore, I don't support public libraries?

If I vacation at Disney World, I don't support public parks?

This is a silly equivocation.

[n2doc]

12. I pay my full share of taxes and send my kids to private school

Savannah, GA has a very dysfunctional school system, especially middle school. So sorry, I will pay the freight to make sure my kids get the safest, best education they can here. If I lived in a place with good, safe schools, then it would be different.

[sarisataka]

15. So I'm bad...

but my children will have the best education I can provide, even if I have to save and scrimp to pay tuition.

I also pay taxes to support public schools and have never voted against a school levy, even when the district superintendent is given a Lexus SUV since she would have trouble affording a car on her $300k+ salary...

[joeglow3]

18. If I had a say in public schools

We had a grade school girl sexually assaulted by 3 boys. The school did NOT call the police and would not expel the kids. The dad finally found out and was pissed. He went to the school where they told him his daughter would need to continue to attend school with these boys. He got pissed and they finally called the police.....on him.

Nothing happened to the principal and the school board voted to retain the principal despite this judgement. Sorry, but I am not going to subject my kids to this shit, just so my great grandkids might not have to worry about being sexually assaulted at school and having to continue to attend class with her assaulters.

[telclaven]

19. Fuck and You

I don't know who she thinks she is, but I'm working this job mainly to be able to afford to send my kids to private school - one that will teach them math, science, and English; one which had better than 80% graduating Seniors receive a scholarship. When it comes to family, I feel no guilt at anything I do.

[Goblinmonger]

27. Isn't it possible

that the percentage of students getting scholarships had as much or more to do with the family situation of those students and not with the school? Are you arguing that those students would not have received scholarships if they had attended public schools?

[jeff47]

32. Not all scholarships are need-based.

Some are academic, which are most likely the ones the parent poster was talking about. They don't care how wealthy the family is, they care about how smart the student is.

Thus a significant portion of those kids would not have received academic scholarships if they had attended worse schools.

[benld74]

20. We chose to send our children to private Catholic school

in order to focus religion into their lives AND because the STL school BLOW! We PAY for both public and private. Both of us went to public school, me in Illinois she in Oklahoma. We both went on to college, both have Masters degrees.

High School really doesnt matter, just as long as they tough it out and FINISH. THen somehow make it to a 2 year, a trade or a 4 year. It IS getting tougher, but it is possible.

[kelly1mm]

22. My wife is a public school teacher. We homeschool due to her experience with the schools. Probably

double bad to the author.

[Logical]

54. So you wife thought she herself was a bad teacher? n-t

[kelly1mm]

64. No, she things she is a pretty good teachers, when she is actually allowed to teach which is

not even close to 100% of the time given the requirements to teach to the tests/'new miracle plan-o-the-week'/discipline issues/and students not being prepared for the day. Discipline issues being the biggest issue for us personally.

[LanternWaste]

72. I imagine learning to different between the general and the specific wasn't taught at your school?

I imagine learning to different between the general and the specific (i.e, inductive reasoning) wasn't taught at your public school, instead replaced by the syllogism...

[Logical]

76. LOL, I bet you are fun at parties. OK Einstein! n-t

[philosslayer]

23. Here's what I'm basically reading...

"I've got mine. And F anyone who has a problem with it. If my kids go to private school, then its no one's business but mine."

However, the larger issue is that the vast majority of kids have parents who can't afford private schools. We therefore have a two-tiered education system. One for the haves, and one for the have nots. And for those who choose private school, thats good for your kids. But for society as a whole, its deterimental in the long run.

IMHO, the kids who can't afford private school would greatly benefit from day to day interaction with kids who can. And their schools would correspondingly improve. So instead of running from public education, why can't we stay and try to improve it?

The authors message is blunt, but one I happen to agree with.

[pnwmom]

33. Each of my children began in public schools and continued till middle or high school.

I found alternatives when the schools stopped meeting their needs. They continued to interact with their neighborhood friends, even though they weren't in class with them during the day. And I continue to work for school levies.

According to standardized test scores, our school district is excellent -- but all the emphasis on test-taking and uniformity wasn't good for my kids. Because they were spread out in age, I was very active in the schools for many years, but I couldn't stop the tide. I pulled out each of them before they drowned, as any good parent would do. All of them needed a different kind of education, which they ended up getting at different private schools. Ironically, our public school district 20 years earlier might have been fine for them, because it was headed by a superintendent who strongly supported an individualized education. Now the district wants all kids on the same page on the same day at the same time, which doesn't work for all kids -- definitely not mine.

[jeff47]

34. So you want parents to deliberately harm their children

so that someday it will be awful enough that we adequately fund public schools.

How 'bout we skip the "harm the children" step and just adequately fund public schools?

[FreeJoe]

43. I wonder about my situation

I send my kids to a public school. I live in a suburban community near a large city. I have the choice of many school districts and well over one hundred public schools. Having sufficient financial means to choose to live practically anywhere in the area that I want, I chose an area with outstanding public schools.

My wife and I are avid boosters of our schools. We are active in the PTO. We do a lot of volunteer work. We donate money. But we do all of this for our kid's well-off suburban school. Are we really helping the public schools that don't have funds or engaged parents? I don't know that we're helping them any more than if we sent our kids to a private school.

[GreenStormCloud]

48. Do you have children?

It is basic evolution for any species for a parent to want the best for its offspring, whatever that may mean for that species. For modern humans, that means the best education for your kids that you can get, anyway you can get it.

[philosslayer]

104. Yes, I do

And they all went exclusively to public schools.

[GreenStormCloud]

107. So did mine. I couldn't have afforded a private school.

But if I could have afforded one, I would have. Every parent (almost) wants to give their own children the best advantage they can. That is simple human nature.

[philosslayer]

109. And what happens if we get Single Payer, and you have the chance to opt out?

What if you have the funds to hire private physicians, and leave the National Health System? Would a separate Health System for those who can "afford it" be right? How is this different?

[brooklynite]

110. Can you name a Single Payer System that DOESN'T allow supplemental private physicians?

[philosslayer]

116. And you think thats right?

Doesn't it kill the whole point? And if you could afford it, you'd participate?

[brooklynite]

117. Consider the following scenario...

...I have CHOSEN not to have children; that means, when I'm in my 50s, I have about $500,000 more that my neighbors with two kids. You're saying I shouldn't have the right to use that money for supplemental medical care? As long as the national program is appropriate, and is fully funded, why do you care what I do with my own money?

[philosslayer]

119. Terrific

If you want a two-tiered medical system, have at it. Glad you're getting yours.

[GreenStormCloud]

111. The rich will always be able to afford things the rest of us can't.

That is what it means to be rich. Yes, that includes better health care. Also better housing, better food, better entertainment, better transportation, better whatever.

[Carnage251]

56. How about we do away with all schooling

You know cause some have-not countries don't have public schooling but the haves United States does and that is totally unfair.

[laundry_queen]

62. I agree also

I'm in Canada and I don't even know anyone who has attended a private school. Everyone in my community - a fairly wealthy one - sends their kids to the local public schools. I don't know of any 'private school' families. And our education system is quite good. I have friends who went to school in the inner city and attend the same university as me and their education levels are on par with the people who went to school in remote small towns and in the rich 'burbs. Collectively, everyone is better off if they send their kids to public schools.

I am seeing the same things you are seeing on this thread - a lot of defensiveness. Everyone is twisting this into: well do my kids not deserve to have the best education?

Guess what?

That poor kid in the inner city deserves it EVERY BIT as much as your kid.

The arguments I'm seeing here remind me of the same arguments used against single payer health care by those who have Cadillac insurance. "I don't want to give up my privilege to better the system for others."

Maybe us Canadians are too commie, but I think we have more of a 'we're in this together' attitude thus our health care and education systems. It's precisely the American attitude of 'me and mine deserve MORE' (THAN YOU are implied) that holds the country back. imvho.

[hack89]

85. So how does sending my kids to a shitty school make it better?

adequate funding, less violence and good teachers are what is needed. How about I willingly pay the taxes needed to improve the schools and in the meantime spend some of my own money to send my kids to private school?

[laundry_queen]

90. Not my fault you can't figure this one out on your own

As others have said, when you have the parents who truly care about their children's education up and leave the system, then there is no one left to speak for those children who are left behind.

[hack89]

94. So how many years of a substandard education

would you submit your children to for the common good? Would you accept them performing below grade level expectations? Would you expose them to a violent environment?

[laundry_queen]

96. That is the problem right there.

You have to change your way of thinking. So you think it's okay for those other kids to have to suffer because they have no choice, but because you have a choice your child is more deserving? Besides, if you become involved in your child school, things would change. If you cared, you would be helping out those schools while your children were in private schools to improve them to the point they are up to the standards you have set for your child.

And I won't answer this question because for me it would be totally hypothetical since there's no way in hades I could ever afford a private education for my 4 children as a single mom. I'll just reiterate that those kids who are already there don't have a choice. I agree this isn't something that would change the entire country if YOUR kid attended public school - this is something that would have to become a movement. I do know that you aren't helping the problem. What you or your kids can tolerate is your choice though.

[hack89]

97. My kids come first. Sorry if that bothers you.

that doesn't mean I don't care about those other kids. It just means I will not sacrifice my kid's futures. Especially since their presences will not fix anything.

[laundry_queen]

98. I guess it does bother me

I can't say that I don't become confused when I have these discussions with Americans. I guess our cultures are just very different, more different than is visible on the surface.

[hack89]

100. You have a government that serves their people

that is not always the case here. So we are prepared to take.care of our families ourselves.

[laundry_queen]

93. Another thing

there are externalities to this.

When the public school system as a whole does not improve because of lack of participation by the parents who want to improve the system, it costs the country dearly. When the vast majority of the country cannot keep up to the rest of the world due to lack of funding and participation in the public system, the whole economic system of your country is severely affected, which means that even if YOUR child goes to a private school, they will be less well off in the future than if everyone attended public school. The long term consequences of a poorly funded/run public school system DO affect your children and IMO it makes them worse off long term when everyone who can sends their kids to private schools.

Also, if your kids go to private school, you are less likely to be upset and protest about funding cuts (or less likely to protest anyhow) for public education and it becomes a downward spiral for those who must depend on public schools. Too many people think, "it doesn't affect me, MY kid is in a private school" and they are unaware of the unintended long term consequences for their own child due to lack of public school funding.

Not to mention the widening of the gap between rich and poor that this system causes, which is never good for a country.

Maybe you need to take a look at why your kids' school is so shitty and then do something about it instead of dropping out of the system. Just paying taxes does not cut it IMO. Everyone has to pay taxes. No one cares if they are taken willingly or not. The public school system gets the same amount either way. Paying taxes 'willingly' does not mean a vote for public schools in the eyes of the government. The only thing that will improve the system is people who use the system protest and lobby for change. That won't happen if those who care the most drop out of the system.

[hack89]

95. My kids go to a very good public school

one of the best in the state. But the urban schools in RI are incredibly poor so I can certainly understand why private schools and charter schools are so popular. I merely want those kids to have the same opportunities that mine have.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

83. Not deliberately harming your child to benefit others does not make you a bad person.

It is legitimate to demand that you do not harm my child in order to benefit yours.

It is not legitimate to demand that you harm your child in order to benefit mine.

Every child deserves parents who will do what is best for it, rather than using it as an educational resource to benefit other people.

[HardTimes99]

114. +Infinity! A sad display of unabashed class privilege, quite unbecoming

a supposedly progressive site.

[demwing]

24. Bullshit

"Your children and grandchildren might get mediocre educations in the meantime, but it will be worth it, for the eventual common good"

As a parent, responsibility is to my children, not society. As a citizen, my responsibility comes second to my parenting.

If you're looking for a different response you'll have to take this guilt trip to someone who is too timid to call it out as the ridiculous bullshit that it is...

[Yo_Mama]

39. well stated

IMO

[Logical]

55. Well, I think you missed the point. But your anger is noted. n-t

[pintobean]

25. How noble of her

Or, maybe not.

In the fall of 2018, all of our kids will finally be in public school, and we will have the $5,000 we pay in child care every month back in our bank account.

http://m.host.madison.com/news/opinion/column/allison-benedikt-we-waited-years-to-have-kids-big-mistake/article_ddc9af52-4640-11e2-9b1d-001a4bcf887a.html

[Butterbean]

108. I always find it amusing when

a parent who has not yet experienced a particular segment of parenthood gets on their high horse and postulates about how everyone else should handle that particular yet-to-be-experienced segment. Sort of like when a first time mother with a 6 week old newborn tries to tell a mom with 3 kids how she should handle her toddler. Bless her. Life will hopefully soon smack her hard enough that she falls off that high horse of hers and lands squarely on her ass. It's the only way she's ever going to learn.

[hunter]

30. My middle and high school experience was "Lord of the Flies."

My head would have been on a post.

I quit high school. Quitting high school was one of the best decisions I've ever made. One of my few friends didn't make it. He killed himself. I was called "queerbait" since middle school and I was constantly harassed by bullies. One of my siblings also quit high school. Oddly it's the two of us who quit high school who graduated from world-class universities. Our high school graduate siblings have two year associate or technical school degrees and ordinary middle class lives. On paper, anyways..

I graduated from university and thought I could change the world by going back to teach Welcome Back Kotter style in an urban public school.

I put my science degree to work as a science teacher. Television is a fantasy. That was the most hellish job I've ever had. I still don't know how people do it. I had after-school conferences with parents, foster parents, and juvenile probation officers that would make any feeling person weep. I had kids who were sexually abused. I had kids who were hungry. I had kids who were in gangs. I had kids who couldn't read or write. I had kids who never did any work, nothing at all, lights on but nobody home, they wouldn't even bother to fill in random bubbles on a scantron test. Ten points just to write your name. And they wouldn't. Yet my principal said I couldn't flunk them. The most satisfying thing in the universe is igniting a spark of interest in a kid like that, but with forty kids in a classroom the most important job is keeping the peace. I learned how to be an authoritarian and I didn't like it. I'd see substitute teachers signing out of our school, holding back tears, never to return again. There were days I felt like that. I'd sweep the floors of my classroom, fuss with the bulletin boards, write out my lesson plans, anything I could do until I stopped shaking and sweating and was calm enough to drive home safely.

My sister-in-law has been teaching thread-bare science and health in public schools for nearly thirty years. She is a saint. They expect her to do labs. Her lab budget is less than two dollars per student per semester and she has no help, no teaching assistants, nothing. With lab equipment that was already old and obsolete when she started teaching. She buys stuff with her own money, not just science stuff, but terrifyingly basic things like tampons and maxi-pads, spare clothes, and grocery store gift cards.

My kids went to our local public schools. They got free lunches because everyone gets free lunches. It would cost more to account for the kids who don't qualify for free lunches and breakfasts than it's worth.

But we didn't send them to public high school. I couldn't sleep with that. My own kids are not the reactive squeaky skinny autistic spectrum kid I was so they probably would have done well anywhere, but I'll confess, we don't live in a place with excellent high schools. We sent our kids to a Catholic high school. Sure, it turned them into heretics like many of the people in our family but they did very well and were accepted to excellent colleges with good scholarships.

Our oldest kid has graduated and is now teaching... My wife and I met as urban public school science teachers so maybe it's in the genes.

But where's the money gene? We don't have it. Altruism doesn't pay in this society.

[pnwmom]

36. Thank you for your honesty, Hunter. A good parent who sees problems and has alternatives

chooses them.

Not all parents can afford to move or choose another school, and my heart goes out to them and their children. But when it's a choice between paying a tuition bill or things like cable TV or vacations, I paid the tuition. I remember a friend asking why I was putting my son in a private school when our school district was perfectly fine (on paper, it is fine -- but not for my son). I said that I'd rather put the money into tuition than in getting my kitchen remodeled. She looked at me like I was crazy. But I'd take an old kitchen in a dumpy house over unhappy children any day.

[Supersedeas]

91. a very powerful, touching post

thank you hunter

[Seeking Serenity]

31. So Slate has devolved to Trolldom, eh?

Just in it for the lulz. And clickbait.

Fine, fine.

[Nine]

87. My thoughts exactly. (nt)

[pnwmom]

37. The writer is someone who thinks getting drunk before basketball games

with kids in a trailer park is an equivalent learning experience to reading Walt Whitman before 9th grade.

He's an idiot.

[Yo_Mama]

38. Unless you're a politican, hmmm? n/t

[Seeking Serenity]

40. Her argument (to the extent she's serious) breaks down

when you consider that parents who enroll their children in private schools are reducing the overcrowding issues, while still paying the same amount of taxes that support the public schools. The only loss of support the public schools are missing is in the reduction in ADM payments they get from the state.

[spin]

41. Well if we did away with all private education ...

I am willing to be that our public education system would improve significantly. If the well to do had to send their kids to public schools they would insist on improvements and the people WE ALL elect would quickly comply as in many cases their own children would be forced to go to public schools.

As it is today the richer members of society can afford to send their children to a good private school. One of the obvious advantages is that these children will get a far better education at the high school level which will enable them to score higher on college entrance exams and to have a far easier time getting the advanced education often necessary to be successful in life. The upper classes will find it easier to insure that their descendants are in the positions of power in our nation.

Now I am not saying that it is impossible for a child of a lower class to be successful but to do so he has to be far brighter and more disciplined than a member of the upper classes who has the advantage of attending a private school.

Nor I'm I saying that public school teachers are inferior to private school teachers. One advantage of a private school is that often the students learn in a disciplined environment while in many public schools the students are far more disruptive. Also a teacher in a private school has the advantage of not having to deal with all the time and effort that complying with the bureaucracy of a public school. A private school teacher without that burden can spend more time teaching and may be able to teach in a more creative manner that suits him/her and is effective.

Unfortunately I see hope of any major changes in our public educational system in the near future and obviously eliminating all private schools is just a pipe dream.

[DemocraticWing]

44. This isn't always true, but...

There's a lot to be said for people attempting to work within the flawed system rather than abandoning it so hastily. Taking the best performing and/or most affluent kids out of public schools and leaving those institutions to rot seems to be the course of action in many places, and it's been disastrous for our education system.

[BlueCheese]

45. With apologies to the author and the OP...

... I strongly disagree with that article. Halfway through I wondered if it was parody-- especially where she wrote she had a terrible education and still has big holes in her knowledge, but that's okay.

As it happens, I went to public school K-12, but then again, we had a terrific public school system where we lived. I do think that public school systems should be cherished and comfortably funded. But a lot of them aren't very good (not even because of the school, but because of the communities they serve), and nobody has a moral obligation to sacrifice their children's well-being or safety for some abstract hope.

[liberal_at_heart]

46. our politicians are the ones who bailed on public education. Until they are willing to fund our

education system I feel no obligation to keep my kid in public school. South Kitsap County School District teachers are striking because they have 35 students in some classrooms. Seattle teachers are also still without a contract because of class sizes and standardized testing. It is our politicians who have abandoned our kids, not us.

[Raine]

47. My father worked two jobs to send my brother and myself to private school

after I was abused and degraded by a teacher in public school. Nobody better ever tell me to my face that my father was a "bad person".

[LWolf]

49. It was a given

that this thread would turn into teacher and public school bashing.

[Carnage251]

52. Care to point out some of this bashing?

[LWolf]

81. Care to read it?

Show up on Tuesday when school starts, and I'll teach you how to read closely. It will help.

Anyone who cannot find teacher and public education bashing in this thread either has sub-standard reading comprehension, is too lazy to look, or simply doesn't WANT to find it.

[Carnage251]

82. Or maybe you don't have an argument

What you posted is kinda like how right-ringers say Obama is bashing America or liberals hate America, you have no argument so you make bullshit claims.

[LWolf]

89. I DON'T have an argument.

Just an observation. I'm not sure why anyone would think an observation was an argument.

You seem to need to argue about something, even though you've offered no point at all. Another observation.

A lesson you seem to need:

Observation: a statement about something you've noticed.

Argument: An attempt to persuade.

[Shankapotomus]

50. If most of our children's education

was moved to automated online courses, parents could have any education they want for their child and pay less in taxes and tuition for it, if any.

Many teachers may object because it's their livelihood but we can't continue going from decade to decade where some pay taxes for substandard education and others pay that plus extra for the hope of a better education.

Automate as much as you can but also provide a selection of online education experiences for different children.

[Squinch]

57. Why not just call "Sesame Street" a head start program? Think of all the taxes THAT would save!

Yours is the worst idea ever. I suspect you haven't met many children.

[Shankapotomus]

60. I'm not proposing

any child's normal developmental requirements not be met. I know they still need to interact with others, get exercise, have supervision during the day, etc.

I'm just proposing they not get those experiences through school. Kids will still be allowed to interact with other children outside of home school, still be allowed to exercise and still have someone to watch them.

In fact, I think many parents would like the fact of having someone they know with their children during the day as opposed to someone they don't, no disrespect to the majority of good teachers out there. Also not having to worry about UN-supervised bad influences on your child at school as well as not having to worry about your child being bullied at school or on the way to school would be an added benefit.

[Squinch]

70. Again. It is clear you haven't met many children. Or working parents.

[Shankapotomus]

71. If I'm missing something

I'm open to correction but if you don't have the time that perfectly understandable.

[Squinch]

73. Better yet, you go out, spend some time with some children, and run your plan past some of

your friends who are parents. See what their reactions are.

[Shankapotomus]

74. I'm assuming it would be a lot like yours

Vague and uninformative.

[Squinch]

77. Probably. Because your suggestion is so far off the mark, they might not want to engage in

a conversation about it any more than I do.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

84. Nonsense.

If most of education was moved to automated online courses, it would become very cheap to get the poor quality of education that such things generally provide, but more expensive than it currently is to get a decent one.

[Shankapotomus]

86. That's alright

I'm not going to try and push an unattractive idea but maybe someday someone will explain exactly why it's a bad idea? Maybe it's because it threatens people's livelihoods?, which I freely admit is one of its cons.

Also a student may have developmental issues that a program just cannot address like a human.

So yea, there would always be exceptions where a human teacher could never be phased out.

I am talking about the demographic of the population for whom, once a certain proficiency of reading has been reached, they would fit the model for online schooling based on past successes in that demo.

But I'm sure this is much too controversial still so you don't have to provide a point by point refutation. I'll accept your thumbs down and leave it at that.

[d_r]

58. i can understand the idea

but obviously it paints with far too broad brush. As Anne Soderman once told me "you can't sacrifice your children to prove how progressive you are."
I went to public schools. I have two children who are elementary school age that attend public school. But here's the thing. My wife and I chose to rent a home in a specific school zone for a specific school. It was that important to us for our children to attend a school we selected. Other people have different priorities and beliefs. Our choice was based on the diversity of the school population and the teaching approach, we didn't care about things like test scores. Other people have different priorities and beliefs here, also.

But I don't know if they will attend public high school yet. When they get there we will think about their interests, their goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and our family's values and abilities. I know that we will do everything in our power to make the best choice for them possible to them. And I can't hold that against anyone, even if the choice they make isn't on the same criteria I would use.

We have friends with a child our son's age who is a pretty high functioning kid with Down Syndrome. He began a private Montessori school this year because the public school he is zoned for ruled in his IEP that he would have to attend another school farther away in a CDC classroom, rather than be integrated in to the typical classroom. Are these parents bad people because they sent their son to a private school while they fight it out in court? Of course they are not.

From that kind of story it is a matter of degrees. I will never blame any family for doing what they think is best for their children, even if it isn't what I would chose as best.

[4Q2u2]

59. Oh no, someone is calling a parent a bad person.

I think most parents laugh off a simple insult like this. If that is the worst thing that happens while doing the right thing for you child so be it. Most parents would march thru the gates of Hell and grab the devil by the nose if it meant making a better life for their kids.
Bad person? Ha. Better a bad person than an Ostrich.

[woodsprite]

61. As a Dem and a parent of 2 kids, I call BS.

There are people who send their kids to private (or charter) schools that do so because they want what's best for their kids -- the best education they can get.

There are people who send their kids to private schools because they don't want their offspring to associate with the likes of the general population or anyone below their self-perceived worth.

Then there's the small faction of sperm donors and incubators who farm their offspring out to private boarding schools as early as elementary/middle school and only see them for a short time in the summer.

My daughter attended public school for elementary. When she wasn't being challenged enough, we moved her to our public charter school for middle school. Once she became "unbored" with school and was engaged in learning, she came back to our public high school and flourished in their AP/Honors program. It was literally luck-of-the-draw that she got into the Charter school. I'm pretty darned sure if we had let her be bussed 2 hrs a day to attend a struggling inner city school during her middle school years, that she would not have been able to achieve what she did in high school.

My son has attended public school all his life. The public schools that he attended kept trying to get us to sign off on assigning a scribe for all testing (I think because they were afraid he'd bring the grades down on the state test), various teachers have said they thought he needed meds to help him concentrate because he didn't seem to be able to "think" in class. In elementary school, he was constantly getting pulled out of his ELA classes to go to a special reading programs. That was his life before 5th grade -- school trying to label him as less than he was, with my husband, myself, his tutor and doctor supporting him. He never scored "below average" on any of the state tests (and only a few of his regular tests in school) and he read/wrote all of them himself, not a scribe in sight. They threatened us with the prediction that he wouldn't succeed. I believe what our tutor (a retired teacher) told us when she said that the schools needed to pad their non-minority, middle class numbers on their funding reports.

He just entered 8th grade this week. Based on the respect he shows teachers and his class behavior, he has been called on to mentor students with less than acceptable classroom behavior. For the past 3 yrs, he's been in Talent Development (where the kids select what they study, are taught research skills and how to teach other students), he's been in honors math since starting middle school, and was just bumped up to honors ELA this year. Since 4th grade, he has won awards for his reading achievements. Next year he'll be attending the same public high school that our whole family has graduated from.

I often wonder where he would be today academically if we had gone along with the public school teachers recommendations that he be medicated and that he have a scribe to read/write all of his test questions for him. I don't think he would be where he is today.

[Supersedeas]

92. meds for the good of the general public

what might they propose next in order to ensure everyone gets the public stamp of approval?

[woodsprite]

103. The admin who was most adamant about intervention actually had a breakdown

and lost her job. I felt momentarily sorry for her after that, but she also did other things -- like
talking about other kids, accusing them of being certifiably crazy, and actually sharing kids grades with other parents.

[Egalitarian Thug]

63. Well this certainly pricked the conscience of the conservadems. Good job. K&R

"I've got mine, fuck you" Should be made the official motto of America 2.0

[brooklynite]

67. Out of curiosity, which public school system did your kids go to?

[Egalitarian Thug]

68. Ha! Curiosity, indeed. I know think the "underclasses" are stupid. But rest assured that it is only

another fantasy rattling around in your over-privileged head.

[brooklynite]

69. Not my point at all

My question is, if you have kids and have sent them to Public School, did you send them to the WORST Public School system? If your community is wealthy enough to support good schools, isn't that unfair? Shouldn't you move to a BAD school district, so that eventually the schools will be improved?

(nb - I have no kids, and I'm happy to support Public Schools. I'm ALSO on the Board of a Private School)

[hack89]

78. As long as parents support public schools through their taxes

why can't they send their kids to a private school if they feel it is best for their kids?

There are some very bad school systems out there that do more harm than good.

[geek tragedy]

79. If by "conservadems" you mean "people who love their children" you are correct

Otherwise, horseshit.

[HardTimes99]

115. + Infinity! - nt

[Paladin]

118. Quite a few of our resident Gun Enthusiasts, here. Totally unsurprising. (nt)

[Jenoch]

65. President Obama went to a private school.

[brooklynite]

66. How many people here own a house or apartment?

Shame on you for not supporting public housing!

[TheKentuckian]

75. No they aren't but the option is bad for the many for the benefit of the few.

Who can be blamed for wanting the best for their children? Who doesn't get that there is only so much best to go around particularly when those with the money and influence abandon ship. Once the tiering starts, the ghettoizing is inevitable.

Everybody in the same boat rowing in the same direction gives every child the best shot, don't tell me if upper middle class, rich folks, and politicians kids were in some of these schools that we would see very different outcomes and budgeting.

I don't think they are bad but I am willing to lock them up for truancy if their kids don't report for assignment in public school and keep them locked up until they are forced to by resource depletion.
I'm good with harnessing the instinct to make sure each ones child gets the best shot they can be given productively to make sure all the kids get a good opportunity.

[Supersedeas]

80. This has to be a parody (an RAA argument) by someone what wants to undermine public education

Specifically, this little snip caught my attention:

"Reading Walt Whitman in ninth grade changed the way you see the world? Well, getting drunk before basketball games with kids who lived at the trailer park near my house did the same for me. In fact it’s part of the reason I feel so strongly about public schools."

Yes, we can see why Allison feels and emotes so strongly about public schools. But, the moral of the story and the underlying ethical framework of her piece is that not everyone is going to share the ethos that she so strongly gravitates toward as reflected specifically in that little snippet above--in fact, some might, lord forbid, have reasonable objections to what she so strongly emotes about.

Public charter schools have changed that ethos to a degree. The problem with the typical public school is that parents, students, educators, and administrators do not share the same perspectives, objectives, and ethos regarding the common education of the student body. Parents who have had to tangle with educators and administrators know this--sometime public educators and administrators simply have different priorities. Sometimes, a minimally safe and structured daycare like environment is the one and only priorities--anything Allison's claims that all of us have a moral duty to sacrifice generations and generations of talented people in order to achieve either a mediocre outcome or to achieve some otherwise generational moral objective decades from now when the common ethos is fleshed out in some way. Allison also doesn't seem to be engaged or concerned with this missing and undefined objective.

More to the point, consider this low hanging fruit that Allison dropped:

"I get it: You want an exceptional arts program and computer animation and maybe even Mandarin. You want a cohesive educational philosophy. You want creativity, not teaching to the test. You want great outdoor space and small classrooms and personal attention. You know who else wants those things? Everyone."

Factually, Allison is just dead wrong about that statement. Everyone does not share these items as educational priorities. Mandarin, really? Art programs and creativity are not even on some administrators radars--not every student and not every parent shares these as priorities either--some never ever will. The motivation to enter public school is as varied as the people to attend the school. What private and charter schools sell is a common educational ethos--when the students enters those schools, the student, the parents, the educators all realize that there are certain common expectations and common standards. It is not the luck of the draw regarding school district boundary lines, not the luck of the draw regarding the expectations and standards of this years principal (who may be transferred at years end) or the particular teacher (who may resign mid-year because of sometimes horrendous discipline problems in the classroom--ie. our local middle school has had a rash of sexual assaults and gang violence--we are talking 6th, 7th, and 8th graders--what qualifies as 'Allison's alright' in that environment).

Alternatively, there is a common educational ethos in private and charter schools; and that common ethos is acknowledged by EVERYONE prior to enrollment in a private or charter school. It is not that way in public schools now...unless the generic ethos of mediocrity (whatever that is) is something that Allison is selling--and I am not sure that she is really.

As an ethical argument, it has to be a parody.

[IdaBriggs]

88. I proudly pay taxes to support my local schools which are good.

For other reasons my children will be attending a private school that is better equipped to handle their special needs.

It is a huge sacrifice for us, but since our goal is to give them the best start in life that we can so they can be independent adults who contribute in positive and meaningful ways to society (and the local public school, while good, simply does not have the resources to deal with their particular issues), I am hoping/praying we are making the right decisions.

School starts Tuesday.

One solution does not fit every child.

[hrmjustin]

99. My parents sent me to private school and they are great people.

[gopiscrap]

101. I love it I fully agree!

[NaturalHigh]

112. What a load of crap.

There is nothing wrong with doing what is best for your kids. If our town's public schools weren't so good, I would send my kids to private schools without batting an eye.

If you think that makes me a bad person, well, you're welcome to your opinion.

[RB TexLa]

113. That's ridiculous. If I want my child to receive a Jesuit preparatory education then I purchase

that education for them. What makes me a bad person for that?

[raouldukelives]

120. As long as it isn't paid for using money made from Wall St or investments I think its great.

The idea of enriching a child off the proceeds from climate change, fracking, slave labor and war machines is self-defeating.
Unless of course you are educating them in how to survive in the world you are leaving them.