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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFast-Food Strikes Expand Across U.S. to 50 Cities
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-29/fast-food-strikes-expand-across-u-s-to-50-cities.html
Fast-food workers in 50 U.S. cities plan to walk off the job today in an attempt to ratchet up pressure on McDonald’s Corp. (MCD) and Wendy’s Co. to raise wages.
Protests that began in New York last year are spreading to cities including Boston, Chicago, Denver, San Diego and Indianapolis, according to the Service Employees International Union, which is advising the strikers. The non-union workers are demanding the right to organize and wages of $15 an hour, more than double the federal minimum of $7.25. They now make $9 an hour on average, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
By simultaneously targeting the largest chains, including Yum! Brand Inc.’s Taco Bell and KFC, Subway and Burger King Worldwide Inc. (BKW), organizers want to force a sector-wide response.
“What the workers are trying to do is hold the corporations accountable,” said Mary Kay Henry, SEIU president.
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Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)K & R
Solidarity
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Watching the other side self-destruct is a thing of beauty.
Auggie
(31,174 posts)*McPuke's current tagline
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I am cool with them striking, but I find it hard to believe that these folks can afford to take 3 days off in the last month to picket. I thought that McDonald's didn't pay well. I would imagine many here even though we don't have that type of income would have to at least cut out some of the more luxury items to strike. Do the unions pay their salaries during these days?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)bread_and_roses
(6,335 posts)We're doing a support rally in my town today - even though we have no strikers here (too small - this is a city campaign for now .... am hoping it will spread to smaller cities like ours - but we can make a gesture of solidarity even though we don't expect our local workers to be walking out).
Rebellious Republican
(5,029 posts)Solidarity!
Pakid
(478 posts)The American worker has been getting the shaft for far to long. At every turn we are asked to do with less so that the worthless rich can have more! It time we stick it to the man as they saying goes!!!!!!!
corkhead
(6,119 posts)
Pterodactyl
(1,687 posts)$15 is a lot for low-skill labor and in this economy, there are lots of people willing to take the jobs.
If the economy ever picks up, we'll see increased demand for labor and that would increase wages. But as it is now, I don't see $185 for burger flipping any time soon.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)If your paying someone fifteen bucks an hour then you will get a higher skill level taking the job away from the skill level who currently have it. As an experiment would be interesting to see the inflation result as people who make less than fifteen an hour then say pay me more or i will resign to work in mcdonalds.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)loli phabay
(5,580 posts)And get fifteen.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)because a big bad skilled worker will take their job. Nonsense.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)The jobs. Personally i wouldnt mind have better skilled workers in the kitchen and front of house, the reality is that mcdonalds etc would no longer be an entry level job and a lot of the workers striking would be out of work.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)I get it now.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 29, 2013, 11:48 AM - Edit history (1)
Lots and lots of good paying jobs in the oil boom area right now
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)leftstreet
(36,109 posts)loli phabay
(5,580 posts)There are people lining up to work at mcdonalds. Different areas obviously have different markets.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)as you feared would happen should 'unskilled' jobs offer $15 an hour?
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)In other markets there are people with much better skillsets than your fast food worker working for less than fifteen bucks, now taking aside the actual cash amount. Do you think that if mcdonalds pays more to unskilled workers than skilled workers make that the skilled workers wont displace the unskilled.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)Indeed. So rather than those 'skilled' workers sitting around bitching and moaning that 'unskilled' workers shouldn't expect too much, the 'skilled' workers need to get off their butts and organize themselves like the 'unskilled' workers being showcased in this OP
This is about fast food workers
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)leftstreet
(36,109 posts)If $15 an hour destroys the economy, we can start all over I guess
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)What's with this "low/no skill" meme? It's not rocket science but I've seen many, many, many people not cut the mustard in these "low skill" jobs. I once spent 2 hours training a young lady in to put mayo, catsup, pickles, onion, tomatoe, lettuce and mustard on a bun. Time goal was 20 seconds. She never made it. Sam thing in the dish pit, prep table, cook ine, servestaion, hostess stand, bussing station, etc. I challenge all of you that term these jobs as low kill to do them and do them at a high level of proficiency. I've seen way too many people fail in this industry to buy the low skill BS.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)So Show Me these lines of people applying at McDouches. OTH, I'm a SKILLED food service worker that made 11 an hour washing dishes. No. A serious raise in wages is long over due and fiscally plausible for these blood sucking exploiters.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Supply and demand is still a powerful force.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)leftstreet
(36,109 posts)not awake yet thx
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)then all wages will rise. So your theory really has no merit.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)If McDonalds went to 15, others would be forced to raise their wage to compete. If you wanted those skilled workers for, say, your nursing home, then you would need to offer them 16 an hour instead of 9.60.
Pterodactyl
(1,687 posts)Or graduate high school and go on to a better job.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)that's why he doesn't post under his old tombstoned screen name. 
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It boosts wages for everyone, forces the rich billionaire fucks to pony up and get some money circulating around the economy, benefiting everyone.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)A rising tide lifts all boats - I guess that only applies to the rich according to our resident, errr, Democrats.
My boss used to tell me he was all about me getting a raise because that meant HE could ask for a raise.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)If the minimum wage had kept up with inflation it would be nearly $15 per hour. The hope would be that a raise in the minimum wage would raise all wages . increased wages would not only spur the economy but it would increase tax revenues.
homegirl
(1,429 posts)Take a half hour to observe "hamburger flippers" at work, lots of pressure for speed, accuracy and a friendly smile. Taking drive through orders while serving a counter customer, keeping the premises clean, refilling beverage machines and the topper is dealing with out of line non customers and sometimes customers. Many of us would not last a day.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I support the workers, I will not cross picket lines.
The local economy will not improve if "99% of 'the people'" don't have money to spend in their communities.
30+ years of supply-side economics is a large factor in what got us into this mess in the first place.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)But at least their workers are asserting their own rights.
If nothing else, it's an exercise in how to be your own advocate.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)And then they will fire every worker who didn't show up for work. They'll figure it'll be easy to replace them, and on that account they are probably right.
Still, it could be meaningful for future generations of fast food workers in terms of moving the dialogue forward that we're long overdue for an increase in the minimum wage. I wish them well.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)
athena
(4,187 posts)$15 is a lot for low-skill labor and in this economy, there are lots of people willing to take the jobs.
That is the point! If a more skilled worker has the option of getting a job at McDonalds, his/her employer will have a huge incentive to raise his/her pay. That's why increasing the minimum wage helps the economy: all wages go up near the bottom, which means more people are able to afford things, which, in turn, opens up more opportunities for those who want to start new businesses. The overall result is less income inequality and a better economy.
But Republicans would much rather continue to increase CEO salaries than the salaries of those near the bottom of the payscale. They don't realize that their selfish attitude keeps their own salaries low.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)with salary is a myth.
If you think $30K is too much money, I suggest you live on it. If you already do, you're doubly on the wrong side of this issue.
In addition, the President might learn something about negotiating from this.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i was just in another thread with an asshole calling people "burger flippers" and claiming they should not make even 20k a year 
it is SAD to see such contempt for labor here, of all places. work is work, and workers deserve to be fairly compensated for their labor...period.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)a system of lies built on a fantasy, that has failed over and over and over. IOW, repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.
And I know exactly to whom you were referring.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)well as the relative scarcity of persons who can do the work.
Sheesh. I swear some people want to pay burger flippers the same as structural engineers.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)I've worked in fast food to fine dining, 30 years. I have never seen a person get paid to stand there and just flip burgers. Your ignorance is exceeded only by your audacity to speak from such an ignorant position. I have seen, otoh, electrical engineers not show up for work for 3 months because nobody notices they are missing. Let your lowly "burger flipper" do that and you'll be at the head of line pissing your pants cause you can't get a Big Whopper McFilet of Parts. Just remember this-WE FEED YOUR KIDS TOO. Now how much is that worth?
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)When did you first find out that fast food was a poor career choice and didn't pay very well? Were you very surprised?
There's a very good reason (several, actually) why fast food doesn't pay very well. If you can't or haven't figured it out, then you're exactly where you should be.
And by the way, you don't feed either me or my kids. None of us eat that swill.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)living in fast food in the 80's. In 1980 I made the same amount at Wendy's as I did hanging sheet rock in Dallas. Actually, one job I made more. Not enough to live the life of Riley but decent. I had my own apartment and even saved enough for a used car. What changed? If they could afford 7.50 in 1980, why not 10 now? 7.50 was what I made at a Denny's type chain called Sambo's and Wendy's paid me 4.50, again, in 1980. Plus benefits at both places and free meals, one per shift.
I went to college, too. I don't appreciate your assumption that all people who went to college never had to work in fast food again. In fact, I can think of 3 teachers that I worked with in fast food. Recently. As for you, I hope you never have to do it again even though you seem to begrudge these workers a raise. You got yours now screw the rest. Nice.
It's also not just about the pay but the conditions as well but I'm sure you're o.k. with no breaks, food or anything not to mention health insurance and paid vacations both of which I had.
And by the way, I wasn't singling YOU and YOUR kids out. At least you are consistent with that you thing though. I doubt very seriously you NEVER eat out. The folks in the full service establishments (or senior homes) aren't exactly floating to work.
One more thing. A lot of people, including myself, enjoy working in restaurants. It's kind of like hosting a party every night and helping people have fun. Some enjoy cooking. And yes, there are even people like you that work there so they can get that college education that guarantees a totally secure job that will never get out sourced, lost or devalued and don't give a crap about anybody else.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)hard work. I also worked in shitty, dark and dangerous factories for min wage. And back in the day at least, most of the people I worked with were doing it until something better came along, or to make money for school. It wasn't a career path for any but the few who wanted to get into a management trainee program. Shit, my 24 y/o son is working at a Boston Market until he can find employment in his chosen profession.
But the reality is that, even though it is hard work, it's work that any physically capable person can perform. You don't need to understand math or physics or medicine or law to be able to do the work. Plus, there's a nearly endless supply of young people willing to do the work, so there's no supply shortage whatsoever except perhaps in energy boomtowns in N. Dakota or wherever, where there's been a rapid growth in population..
When you have a situation where there are plenty of people to do the work, and no special skills required, that is a recipe for low wages. It always will be.
Having said that, I do agree that the minimum wage needs to be corrected for inflation, which, I'm told, would be around $15. But it should be that for all workers, not just food service. It still won't be a living wage, but at least it would keep pace with inflation. Two people sharing expenses could make a decent life.
Let me ask this : if we paid food service workers $150,000 per year, why would anyone spend years of study and hundreds of thousands of dollars to become doctors or engineers? There's a relationship between training and skill level, market demand, and wages that some here want to deny.
hatrack
(59,587 posts)And it also assumes that you're working eight hours a day, five shifts a week during that year.
So, that's $600/week gross, which is probably closer to, say, $475 once FICA, Medicare and taxes are taken out.
Using that figure for the sake of argument, your net for the year is $24,700. That would have been pretty good money back in, say, 1973, but $24,700 ain't what it used to be by a damn sight.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I can teach you how to clean a toilet or flip a burger in 5 minutes. It takes 16 years to learn how to perform surgery.
Surely the time a person spends training for his or her job, as well as the scarcity of those skills, has a very great bearing indeed on one's salary. Not only that, it's completely fair that it should be thus.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)an explanation would be a waste of time.
You seem to prefer being a crab in a pail to braving the scary unknown.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I am impressed by what the Scandinavians have accomplished. They have a market economy, high taxes, and the happiest and healthiest people on earth.
I don't see the need to repeat the most discredited economic system in the history of the world.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)ready to knock something just because you don't get it. This is why "You must be an American" is near the top of the list of most common replies outside the U.S.
Uniquely American, indeed.
And I might add, embarrassing.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)Wages based on market conditions is not fair because it can be manipulated. The misinformation about a STEM shortage is one such example. Rich people like Zuckerberg just wants to flood the market with STEM qualified applicants to lower wages.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)I don't understand why you even bring this up. What does what a brain surgeon have to do with food service? The only way I can see how they might possibly relate is that if each one screws up bad enough, you could die or become very ill.
Look at this way. Who do you want providing food to your children or care to your grandma and grandpa? The well paid and motivated employee or the $9.00 an hour, hate my job with no benefits and shitty pay and screw washing my hands employee.
As an aside, you may be able to show somebody how to cook one hamburger in 5 minutes but I highly doubt you'd survive a thousand burgers in an hour much less teach anyone how to do it. And 1000 burgers in an hours is not hyperbole or exaggeration.
Both people deserve to be fairly compensated based on their individual skill level, punctuality, attendance, pride in work and many other factors. A well paid food service worker threatens nobody. Why are you scared of them?
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)was a myth.
Someone else has pointed out that indexed for inflation, the minimum wage should be around $15. Why not apply that to every worker? Why limit it to fast food? There's power in numbers. If there are a few million fast food workers, there must be tens of millions of total min wage workers in every field - manufacturing, hospitality, transportation - you name it.
I don't begrudge anyone a decent wage - I made the unpardonable sin of bring skills into the discussion - as in people with higher skills in professions with greater demand should make a higher wage. At that point, people stopped reading what I wrote and instead heard only what they wanted to hear. This is very common on DU, especially when one ventures an opinion even a tiny bit different from the orthodox, pack-endorsed version.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,036 posts)Skill has everything to do with salary, at least in any of the "skilled trades".
I am about to cut a couple of pockets this morning on a 5" horizontal boring mill in some cylinder heads from a large (15" piston bore) diesel engine. The tolerance on that bore is .0008", that is eight tenths of one thousands of an inch. The head is worth about 40K and if I make a mistake it could take up wards of 4 months to get a replacement part.
That is the reason I make well over $30/hr and have not only job security but the ability to replace my job with another should something happen here.
You can train people to perform some tasks, and I have trained many people to perform routine machining procedures, but when it comes right down to it and there are literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line, skill means more than anything else. Many times others in the shop say they can do my job, they can do what I do ... when something like this comes up I always offer them the opportunity to step up to the plate.
They never do. A mistake on that level can get you terminated.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)You do realize that you are included as part of the "low-skilled masses" the pro-parasite crowd is talking about here, right?
If you have any interest in learning about the issue, read this book: Nickel and Dimed On Not Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,036 posts)I get looked down on by a whole bunch of people ... all the time. I wear my work uniform all the time, pretty much a blue/black jumpsuit and I get asked on a regular basis, "why are you dressed like that, what do you do?"
My usual reply is that I am a janitor or "in waste management", and then sometimes they notice I am driving a brand new mustang and ask some other dumb ass question. In turn my reply is, "I'm a union janitor."
The point being that I really do not much give a shit what other people think of me, or my trade.
The fact is I started out in my life "low skill" and went from there. Straight out of high school I went to work as construction labor, which was pretty much a ditch digger and I did that until I was able to figure out where the ditch was going and why it was going there, and every opportunity I got I did something beyond what I was told.
The point is that I learned a trade, actually a few of them, and I am no longer "low skill". From carpenter to equipment operator, did some time as a fitter and welder then finally found my niche as a machinist. I could move up the ladder here, I have been offered a couple of positions, purchasing agent, shop foreman ... blah blah. Fact is I am happy doing what I do, and I make pretty damn good money doing it.
You may scoff at $30/hr ... I am sure you are one of those people who make waaaaaay more than I do, and that's nifty and I'm happy for you. But, there is a huge difference between "low skill" and "highly skilled" in the business that participate in.
Most of the time when those people who look down upon my trade and think I am unskilled and offer to help me "find a better job" I listen to them and simply reply.
"That's nice and all, but I couldn't afford the pay cut."
I understand that I have been lucky and am fortunate in my health, that I am blessed to have the abilities that I have. I also understand that we need to do more to protect the less fortunate and raising the minimum wage would certainly lend a hand to that. My whole issue is that there are different levels of skill, and different levels of manual dexterity, physical prowess, mental capabilities, and personal drive that determines who ends up being where on the food chain.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)His business is equality of outcome for all.
BTW, I've worked with model shop people my whole life, and dealt in tolerances if .0002" every day. The number of people who can produce parts if that level is maybe one in 10,000. You have every right to be proud. What you do is 50% art.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)try out here? I understand Cumulus is looking for talent to replace the worn-out set of authoritarian windbags they've been using to promote these lies...
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)posts scolding people repeatedly that no set of skills is more valuable than any other, it seemed like a logical inference.
Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)What's with the red-baiting?
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)But, you don't seem to get how your attitude serves only to make things worse for you and all the rest of us like you. Good, decent people that just want a decent life for themselves and their families.
I have skills that are more highly valued than yours, but that doesn't make your skills any less valuable to the society as a whole. In fact and in practical terms, yours are probably more valuable than mine. So no, it's not nifty, it's obscene and insidious. Read the book, you'll be glad you did.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,036 posts)Penmanship is a great skill to have ... er, was. You can have great penmanship, one of the best, and I can hit a nail with a hammer.
Sorry. We need some nails driven. The PC has removed any need for penmanship.
With audio recognition moving as fast as it typing will soon be a skill that is no longer needed. Being a first class riveter may get you a job at a fair somewhere ...
I understand where it is going, just not to much that can be done about it. Truthfully I am done arguing this point here on DU, where the masses rail against H1B Visas all day but mention that I have to compete with illegal labor and I am a racist. It is over, our standard of living is on the decline, there will soon simply be two very different classes. As it stands now there are really three; dumb ass rich, the lucky, and everyone else.
I'm one of the lucky.
Mr_Teg
(47 posts)Everyone is low skill labor at some point. Some people just never move beyond it.
I also don't see a reason why a person with valuable skill should not earn more than a person without it?
It just seems that this is an effort to deny reality...
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)reason for arguing against a living wage floor.
In most cases it is used by people that do not do the jobs they deem such, and so they label it "low-skilled" out of ignorance. The others use it as code to justify and perpetuate their own questionable positions and salary.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Where skill and ability means you are a piece of shit.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)I must have missed it.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Primarily because they have no arguments nor fact to show that the system they back works. They like the idea of parasitism because they either are, or want to be, parasites themselves.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)I read the entire thread, I was just hoping Flatulo would back up his/her statement.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)And this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3562540
And this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3560245
And this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3560303
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Nobody said what you claim.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I linked directly to claims that there was no such thing as 'low skilled labor". What claim of mine are you disputing?
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)" Welcome to MU - Marxist Underground
Where skill and ability means you are a piece of shit."
Nobody said that. You did and there is no proof that anyone else did.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)of higher wages by virtue of skill, training or ability. I did not put quotes round it, so I wasn't quoting anyone. They're my own words.
The poster to whom I was referring made it very clear that he or she considered all labor to be of equal value, as I've documented. That's empirically false, as evidenced by the economic system under which we in the States live.
In our economic system, persons with greater ability, skill, training are compensated more highly than a persons with lesser ability. This is generally true across the whole economic spectrum, but goes non-linear at the very top of the income scale, where some very stupid people have done very well. That's because a normal review process which we all go through to measure our performance is dispensed with, and the review is done by one's close buddies on the board, so the system doesn't function well with these fixes in place.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)The poster you were talking with NEVER said all labor is of equal value. They never said people with a higher degree of education or training should be paid less. The conversation was about a living wage for all workers. Starting at the bottom and going up.
You have an axe to grind because your kid can't find a job befitting his skills, which means you should be on the side of workers. Please don't reply to me I am putting you on ignore. I have had enough of you.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)You'll see that I advocated raising wages for all, not just fast food employees.
I support the strike here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3559207
And I advocate for higher wages for all here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3557961
I'll repeat here my main point throughout this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3557961
"All I've maintained throughout this topic is that all labor is not equal. Higher skills/education/ability should be compensated at a higher rate, with some adjustment for market demand. Otherwise, we erect disincentives to higher learnings and skills - not the best way to compete in a global job market."
ET hasn't made a cogent argument against this - he's just made the usual oblique drive-by insinuations and insults. If you're OK with that, then continue the cheerleading.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)it is only through actively avoiding them.
Every skill beyond the most basic hunting/gathering/primitive agricultural, developed because of and depends on society. Therefore, every skill is required to keep the thing which allows them to exist and develop, society, going and improving. The garbage collector and the neurosurgeon are both necessary to society, and you place a greater value on the neurosurgeon because her skills are so much more specific and difficult to develop. However, if you take two identical civilizations and remove all the neurosurgeons from one and all the garbage collectors from the other, which will collapse? Does that mean that the garbage collector is more valuable than the neurosurgeon?
Both the garbage collector and the neurosurgeon are human beings with their one life. On what rational, logical, objective basis do you declare the neurosurgeon's life is worth more than the garbage collector? After all, society as a whole can exist perfectly well without the neurosurgeon, while it dissolves very quickly without someone taking the trash out.
Every member of a society contributes some portion of their life to maintaining and advancing that society, and therefore, each has a claim on that society, and once that claim is recognized by the society, a reviewing of the relative values of skills and contributions is inevitable. This does not demand "equal outcomes" (a Reich-Wing deflection used for so long, it has become 'common knowledge'), it does demand equal consideration. The value of every member of society is not the skills they posses or develop, but the life they contribute in it's function.
Enlightened self interest is an interesting idea, it just doesn't exist, and therefore cannot serve as a basis for anything beyond drug fueled debates among those of us that enjoy that kind of thing.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I'm sure we can agree that time has value, we mortals being allotted only so much of it.
I'm going to intersperse my replies within your post for the sake of continuity...
Every skill beyond the most basic hunting/gathering/primitive agricultural, developed because of and depends on society. Therefore, every skill is required to keep the thing which allows them to exist and develop, society, going and improving. The garbage collector and the neurosurgeon are both necessary to society, and you place a greater value on the neurosurgeon because her skills are so much more specific and difficult to develop.
I almost wish you hadn't chosen garbage collector for your analogy - that job is quite physically demanding and their backs are usually destroyed by the time they're in their forties. But the work is relatively well-compensated. Most trash collectors are unionized and reap a good wage and an excellent benefit package. On the other hand, fast food service just isn't that difficult. I did it for a year as did tens of millions of other young adults back in the day. I understand that many adults now rely on it as their primary source of income. But let's stay with garbage collectors and neurosurgeons for now.
However, if you take two identical civilizations and remove all the neurosurgeons from one and all the garbage collectors from the other, which will collapse? Does that mean that the garbage collector is more valuable than the neurosurgeon?
This line of reasoning implies a reciprocity that just doesn't exist. The neurosurgeon can always pick up the garbage with very minimal training (as long as they're physically able), but the garbage collector cannot perform neurosurgery. The only way to (successfully) perform neurosurgery is to make the investment of time, usually 16 years or so, and money (either one's own or society's) to acquire the skills to do so.
Both the garbage collector and the neurosurgeon are human beings with their one life. On what rational, logical, objective basis do you declare the neurosurgeon's life is worth more than the garbage collector?
I make no such claim, and I don't know anyone who does. If the garbage collector needs medicine or triple bypass surgery, he or she gets it (generally - I know there are exceptions but we're working to close this gap; we should be working much harder). What I claim is that the value of their labor is not equal, or even close to equal. Because the neurosurgeon has made a massive investment of time and/or money to gain his or her skills, the only way that their labor can be equally valued is if both time and money have no value. Do you want to make this claim? As I alluded to in the title of my reply, time is something we all have very little of, and money is something we all wish we had more of. If that doesn't constitute value, than I don't know what does.
After all, society as a whole can exist perfectly well without the neurosurgeon, while it dissolves very quickly without someone taking the trash out.
This is certainly true for what I'll call natural or primitive (I hope this doesn't sound too insulting) societies, and that's a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, but not one that is made so much in large scale these days. I like having modern medical care. I like having a computer and the Internet. I like being able to get about the countryside in my Audi S4. I like that when I flick a switch my 42" TV with 500 channels comes on to entertain me. None of these things would be possible if at least some of us didn't choose to learn math and science and physics and medicine. None of these things would be possible if at least some of us hadn't busted our asses learning very hard stuff. And speaking as one who's busted his ass to learn some very hard stuff indeed, I assure you that I did it at least in very large part because of the promise of a good wage. Everyone I went to engineering school with looked forward to making a good living after 4 or 6 or 8 years of difficult study. I went to a ridiculously difficult and prestigious engineering school, WPI, and we students, coming off of an 12 hour caffein and nicotine fueled study binge, used to joke that if we werent making big bucks by this time next year, someone was going to get hurt. And of the dozens of professionals I've known who emigrated here from Iran, Africa, or former Soviet bloc states, the primary reason they did so was to for the money (some Soviet Jews fled to escape persecution, and some Albanians and Serbs fled to escape war, but they all fled to the West, and the US specifically, because they could command a hefty salary here).
Every member of a society contributes some portion of their life to maintaining and advancing that society, and therefore, each has a claim on that society, and once that claim is recognized by the society, a reviewing of the relative values of skills and contributions is inevitable.
We're in violent agreement here.
This does not demand "equal outcomes"
In fairness to me, I think I could be forgiven for inferring that from your posts.
(a Reich-Wing deflection used for so long, it has become 'common knowledge'), it does demand equal consideration.
Again, we're in violent agreement. I came to DU after a lifetime of more-or-less libertarian outlook because I observed, without any outside influence, that massive and chronic income inequality was going to polarize and ultimately wreck our neat little technological wonder of a society. Some of my earliest posts were rants about the massive compensation packages (I'm talking about $10-20m packages) that were being awarded to people who were actually quite stupid and lazy. I knew these people on a first name basis. Many of them were promoted to Director and VP positions even though they were complete and utter failures as engineers or business people, only because they were kissing this or that ass. They had NOT worked hard to get into these positions. They did not, by any objective standard one can imagine, deserve this level of compensation. There was no shortage of such people that would justify it. In short, it was insanity. It had nothing to do with free markets or invisible hands. It was just greed and connections.
The value of every member of society is not the skills they posses or develop, but the life they contribute in it's function.
This sounds nice, but I'm not entirely certain what it means. I would argue that since we sleep 8 hours, hang out with family and friends 8 hours, and toil 8 hours, that the labors we perform for money are the primary measure of our contribution. Yes, some of us dedicate our downtime, for free, to helping others, but if you put a dollar value on that, then volunteerism becomes a meaningless word.
Enlightened self interest is an interesting idea, it just doesn't exist, and therefore cannot serve as a basis for anything beyond drug fueled debates among those of us that enjoy that kind of thing.
Huh?
Now, this being DU and all, I know I'm going to be completely misquoted, soundly thrashed, told to fuck off and go to F.R., called things that would make a sailor blush, and that's OK, because my psyche will remain intact even if total strangers on an anonymous message board don't love me like a brother. Even so, I do want to make it very clear that I do get income inequality and understand it to be the death of us all. I think we are in need of massive, systemic correction at both the top and the bottom of the wage scale. The bottom is easy - just give people a fucking raise. The top is harder. Since most corporations are publically owned, they have shareholders and Boards of Directors. The Board members set ridiculous compensation packages for company officers, because they in turn are officers of companies on which the people to whom they are ladling out money sit as Board members. It's a good old-fashioned circle jerk. The whole thing is a fucking joke, with no oversight. Then there's the whole issue of compensation packages being comprised mostly of stock, driving corporate officers to make ridiculous decisions (like selling all their technology and assets to the Chinese) based solely on short term gain.
Some of this skulduggery can be fixed with the tax code - for example, bringing back the 50% short-term capital gains tax that I grew up with. Others will be trickier, since the crooks have had 30 years to figure out how rig the outcome. We need to first break the stranglehold that corps have over Congress, repeal Citizens United, etc.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)offer much content.
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
$15 an hour for unskilled labor is an unreasonable request IMO.
Why is most of our stuff made in China, Korea, Mexico and so on?
Because us North Americans (Canada included) expect too much compensation for menial jobs.
Want to make "real" money? - Train, go to school, college whatever.
Do not expect to live like the rich without skills of some sort.
Heck, up here in Ontario, even those on social assistance have tvs, internet, cell phones, cars and so on.
Should be spending it on healthy food, and care for their children.
But gotta have what everyone else does, right?
Want a good job/pay?
WORK FOR IT!
CC
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
it fits.
CC
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)And he's DEFINITELY not wrong here. Your position IS the Republican position and it has been for at LEAST the last 30 years. Not coincidentally workers' wages have stagnated for the last 30 years while CEO compensation and business share of the gross has GROWN by 30+%.
So the Republican position in a nutshell is screw the worker and pay the bosses. That's your position.
sgtbenobo
(327 posts).... that if you think working at McDonald's is not worth $15.00 an hour perhaps you should get your burger made in China. It should be nice and toasty by the time it gets to Ontario.
Want to have a nice Big Mac?
PAY FOR IT!
Carry on.
Response to ConcernedCanuk (Reply #108)
sgtbenobo This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)nt
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)everybody else should likewise be required to devalue theirs?
You are a conservative that has internalized the lies they've been telling for generations to your own detriment, and you apparently can't even see that much of the reality which enslaves you.
TheDebbieDee
(11,119 posts)that management will come back with a counter-offer - any kind of counter-offer means management is willing to negotiate!
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)If we don't demand companies pay livable wages, then we have to cover the difference through taxation.
If most of McDonald's expenditures aren't raw materials (no food-pun intended), then they are doing something wrong. Personnel costs are a fraction of the overall cost of delivering a value meal to the customer.
Additionally, when people have money to spend, they tend to spend it. That's a big positive for the economy.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Did Martin Luther King Jr. say that when he led the civil rights movement? Just because it seems improbable does not mean it is impossible. It just means we have one hell of a fight a head of us. But that is okay. We have shown in our history that we are up for the fight. It may take some time, but it will happen. History tells us that.
Pterodactyl
(1,687 posts)
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)the workers get their raise!
Soundman
(297 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 30, 2013, 03:59 AM - Edit history (1)
Maybe in places like LA or New york etc. but not in the majority of the country. Frankly I see it as obscene. If you are looking to a McJob for a living wage and raising a family you have some seriously fucked up goals, or you just have a taker attitude. I guess I'm just getting old, my first job was at McDonald's, and I like the majority that worked there, saw it as decent part time money. A great resume builder, not as a long term career choice. Well unless you wanted to pursue management type work. Back then they offered a clear it easy to follow path for those that wanted to make fast food a career.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)Over 28,000 ER visits each year are people injured on the job in fast food establishments. Some of the injuries are from being attacked by customers and there seems to be a culture-wide attitude that it is okay to treat fast food workers poorly. A visit to YouTube can confirm just acceptable people feel it is to take out their own frustrations on those who work in fast food.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)No job
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)A living wage for any worker willing to WORK is NEVER obscene. And the comment about the taker attitude sounds just like RW radio assholes.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)
progressoid
(49,992 posts)I don't think anybody expects to get 15 at this stage in the game. But the point is to raise awareness and spread the idea that it needs to go up.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Taco Bell
McDonalds
B.K.
KFC
Wendys?
Is there a comprehensive list? I like a cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee every now and then but didn't stop today as I wasn't sure if they were involved or not. The others - I don't eat at so I can't make an impact - but there's a potential for Chipotle (McDonald's company - right?) and Dunkin.
I'll support them however I can.
mountain grammy
(26,626 posts)so they seceded from McDonalds.. no really! Honestly, I don't know how they treat their workers. We are trying to avoid all fast food restaurants, but Chipotle is one place that does advertise fresh and their food is good.
That said, I think it's time for all of us to recognize the corporate invasion of our lives and the effect it's had on America. We can no longer be a "land of opportunity" when there are so many working poor. Someone with a job should not need assistance, but corporate profits have taken precedence over everything else and this can no longer be ignored. If corporates won't share profitability with workers and with the absence of unions to make them, the government must mandate a living minimum wage. Well, duh!
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Someone with a job should not need assistance. 
We generally eat whole food, organic so we stay away from fast food restaurants and chains. Very very easy in the land of Diners! 
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Response to xchrom (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)not support the goals of the strikers in general? Is there really no other option for you than McDs? (Your heart will thank you for eating elsewhere. That's by-the-by, I suppose.)
Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #21)
Name removed Message auto-removed
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Out of all the reasons to be a piece of shit selling out your fellow human beings, you'd do it for a Big Mac?
At least Judas had the sense to demand 30 pieces of silver - that was enough to get some real-estate. But all you want is a Big Mac?
Fucking pathetic.
Jack London's more eloquent than I am on this.
A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue.
Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.
When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out.
No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with.
Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.
Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage.
Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver.
Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commision in the british army.
The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.
Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country.
A scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class.
Author --- Jack London (1876-1916)
NO SCABS!
Response to backscatter712 (Reply #71)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)What do you hope to accomplish here? I am curious about you.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I hope MIRT answers that question shortly.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)WTF, Juror #4! Obvious troll means obvious hide!
No, I do not support $15 an hour
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3556120
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
YOUR COMMENTS:
Rule #0 of DU: Don't be a right winger. This poster is advocating scabbing and undermining unions. Time to tell him Free Republic is thataway...
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Aug 29, 2013, 11:00 AM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Member should probably be MIRT'd, but I don't think the post is worthy of being hidden. Just being a dick is more of a grey area.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: While the poster is an obvious troll, just because he does support a livable minimum wage is not, sadly, a violation of DU rules.
However, the follow up post which calls this troll "a piece of shit" should be alerted on, however, I will not alert on it, because just because the troll doesn't support a livable wage, I too feel he is also "a piece of shit".
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: I support the strike, if this is the only way I can exercise that support (I don't eat fast food), so be it.
Thank you.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Fuck scabs!
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)
Response to uppityperson (Reply #80)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Gotcha. Again. Why are you on DU? What do you wish to accomplish here?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Response to backscatter712 (Reply #81)
Name removed Message auto-removed
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Any worker willing to WORK should be paid a living wage, it is that simple. A cursory glance at that posters contributions here are quite interesting.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)But the employees of such an establishment should earn more money.
Just got a chuckle out of that is all.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)can support the right of workers to bargain collectively and also support good nutrition without getting into some self-cancelling pose. At least I hope so.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)I do it myself and smile. Laughing at the absurdity of the contradictions all of us have is what keeps me functional each day. Otherwise I don't get out of bed.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)expense 
Keeps me humble
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Go A's!
Tippy
(4,610 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Not going to happen.
I went to Craiglist and looked at various skilled jobs:
SHEAR OPERATOR- SHEET METAL SHOP - 1 to 3 yrs exp - $10 to $15/hr depending on exp.
Crew Chief / Supervisor, Foundation Repair - Pay $130 to $200 per day.
Copier Technician Trainee - Start $10, then $13 after one year
Bi-lingual, Armed, Security Patrol Officers, Entry level, $11.70/ hour (In Texas to be an armed guard requires a state license.)
Those are just a few of the skilled job listings. And burger flippers think they are going to get $15/hr? Won't happen.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)Those jobs you researched should be paying much, much more
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)
juajen
(8,515 posts)they can certainly give struggling and exhausted workers a decent wage. Greed is killing this country. The middle class needs to make a comeback not slide away.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)...it would mean a raise of about 7/10 cent per hour. They have 1.7 million employees, almost all of whom are part-time.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)...to give big raises to everybody. I am simply pointing out how thin it would be if his pay were distributed.
Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)There's no such thing as an "unskilled" job. Picking strawberries is a skilled job that most of you cannot do fast enough. It takes a a high level of skill to pick them fast and pack them without spaces. "Unskilled" is a term used to justify paying people less than a living wage.
Those jobs found on Craigslist are non-union jobs where the company is setting wages. It's in the company's interest to pay as little as possible. Every dollar less a company pays their employee is one more dollar that shows up as profit and gets put in the bank as cash.
Fast food workers making a $15 wage with benefits will boost everyone's wages.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The chain was Jack-in-the-Box. Any job that you can be trained for in a few minutes is unskilled.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)sorry this is so hard for you to understand.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)It does not sound like you ever worked for fast food. Details?
A job exists simply because the owner can't do it himself. If it was possible, the owner would be doing everything him or herself and pocket all the money, but the owner does not have the skills to do so. Therefore, he must hire people who do the work that he cannot do himself.
owner - Unskilled
employee - Skilled
"unskilled labor" is actually oxymoronic. Labor, simply by existing, means it's skilled which makes "skilled labor" redundant as all labor is skilled. All you got left is "labor" which the moral and just payment for that work is a living wage.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The owner has to hire people because s/he can't do everything at once, and can't work 24/7. At the place I worked, the manager had the skills to do any job, but not the time to do them.
I know a local guy who has a fruit & vegetable stand. He started a few years ago as one man, by himself. He did all the jobs. His produce was good and his prices low so he got a lot of customers. His little business has grown. He now has two helpers. He has them because he can't wait on all the customers by himself, not because he doesn't know how.
You have obviously never owned or managed a business if you think that you can do all the jobs by yourself - unless it is a very tiny business.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)small operations - one or two people - and grow because the business grows and it is physically impossible for the owner to do 5 things at once. This is a good thing.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Given the price level of food, rent, fuel, transportation, etc., anything below $10 an hour is practically slavery.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)to the persons who were forcibly abducted from their ancestral lands, stuffed into the holds of ships, and forced to toil from dawn to dusk for nothing but a few morsels of food.
Just sayin'.
Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)Apple workers in China make $285 a month, living in a crowded dorm, eating a bare subsistence meal, 12 hour shifts doing physical labor.... Once you get stuck working there, you really have no options. About 11 more people at Foxconn have killed themselves since they installed suicide nets.
What options do people have working minimum wage? How will they further themselves if they want to go to college? How will they pay rent? How will they get healthcare? How will they support kids? Of course, jerkoff managers will say they are "free to leave", but you know and I know that the only other jobs out there are more minimum wage jobs, so the worker is not really free to leave. Yeah, they're slaves... and I haven't even mentioned the continuation of the house slave and field slave system in the modern world.
Mr_Teg
(47 posts)What should everyone do then?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)What a lovely perspective.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)Or that workers will be fired?
Or is that Rovian?
Spirochete
(5,264 posts)but hoping so is.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Thanks for asking.
The strikers and strike organizers are well aware of the peril fast food workers are in trying to organize. What they need is public support.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)The true bottom should be $22.00, and we should move away from minimum wage and towards real living wages.
That would be a stimulus to the economy from hell.
But I guess if you cannot conceive of getting paid $30.00 you cannot conceive of a living wage starting at $15.00
In what you can buy the minimum wage in 1968 would be the equivalent of $22.00 in current dollars.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)for wage arbitrage has resulted in the abysmal wages you've displayed, is not an argument or justification for dragging other workers back. You're thinking like a crab in a pail, and you know what happens to them.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Which indicates how far formerly well-paying jobs have fallen. By now, fast-food workers have become share-croppers, only they share in nothing.
Unions are needed, liveable wages are needed, worker rights are needed.
Gross executive pay and gross profits are not.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)Proceed.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Sadly, it's not.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)Bring back META.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)"I DON'T WANNA PAY TWENTY BUCKS FOR A BURGER!!1!1!"
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)... is just a few cents.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)
canoeist52
(2,282 posts)Competition can spiral upwards too. Low wages are not written in stone. Raising the minimum wage can lift all boats.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)written in stone.
Buns_of_Fire
(17,183 posts)Not so high as to be completely unrealistic, not so low that it means nothing in the long run.
I think President Obama could learn from such an approach.
ChaoticTrilby
(211 posts)Seems that basic negotiation methods have become a lost art. Sad.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)That was the secret to Henry Ford's success.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Ford sold millions of cars. Do you think that all of those were sold to his own employees? After a few hundred were sold to his employees, Ford would have had to have stopped production if he were dependent upon that market.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)It's basic Keynesian theory. The best way to boost the economy is to get money to the lowest paid workers, since they will spend it all and create a cascading ripple effect across the economy ("Keynesian Multiplier"
. It is what FDR used to get us out of the Great Depression.
By raising his workers' wages up from what was the norm for factory workers at the time, Ford spurred his workers to buy more cars, furniture, bread, etc. In turn, with the increased business, the bakers and furniture makers were also able to buy more cars.
Ford did not "have to" pay his workers as much as he did; he could have gotten the same labor for less. But he was wise enough to see that strategy was self-defeating. Too bad today's CEO's lack the same wisdom.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)Henry Ford proclaimed the increase was "one of the finest cost-cutting moves we ever made."
In 1912 alone the labor turnover at the Ford Motor Company had been so high that 60,000 men had to be hired to retain 10,000 workers. Absenteeism was excessive. Assembly lines were monotonous and many employees left for better alternatives. Hiring replacement workers was expensive. This one move put an end to the constant retraining of workers - morale increased and workers were more productive. Skilled workers from other plants were attracted to Ford as well.
I don’t believe comparing early 20th century factory work to that of the fast food industry one hundred years later is valid. The underlying dynamics are completely different.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Isn't high turnover a big problem in low wage jobs? Didn't Costco and Starbucks and In-n-Out Burger figure out, like Ford did, that it is "cheaper" to pay workers more?
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)...but the government does NOT need to be the arbiter of wages. If In-N-Out, one of the few fast fooders I go to, chooses to pay their employees a starting wage of $10/hr then good for them. By the way, they can certainly afford to pay more than most. I can go to to the one close to my office at 2:30pm and there are 10 cars in the drive-thru and more waiting inside - they have an incredible business model.
A government mandate of a $15 minimum wage wouldn't mean that much to In-N-Out, but would shutter many of their alternatives. Perhaps that's your preference, less choice but higher paid employees. If so, personally I couldn't care less - I don't frequent fast food establishments and when I dine out the tip is typically more than miminum wage. But I champion those who have the drive to create new venues, and do not want to stand in the way of their ambition and creativity.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)...any more than requiring sprinklers in buildings is telling architects how to build a building. It is simply setting rules of the road. There is still plenty of room for creativity. That creativity just cannot involve unfair exploitation. If your business model requires that you pay workers slave wages, then your business model is faulty.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)A fast food operator paid $100,000 after all is said and done to acquire a lease, purchase fixtures and equipment, and do all the other things required to open a business. After struggling for the first several years she is finally at a point where her net income (with no consideration to the $100K) is $50,000 per year. As an owner, she puts in a 60 hour week, equal to $16/hr WITHOUT any consideration for overtime, holiday pay etc.
She employees 8, some full, some part time, with a total annual expenditure for wages of $80,000 with the average employee earning $9.00 per hour. The immediate effect of paying a minimum wage of $15/hr would be to increase her payroll to $125,000 (notwithstanding the fact that her highest paid employee at $14/hr is now demanding $20/hr). The new wage structure will reduce her 'earnings' to $5,000 per year, or $1.60 per hour. Her larger cash rich competitors are not raising prices, knowing that she will soon go out of business and at that point they'll take her customers.
Do you really believe she will continue on at this level rather than close the doors? You've already accused her of paying 'slave wages', what is your next slam against this person? That by not staying in business she's putting her employees out on the street?
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)I pay my high school age babysitter $15/hour. If you must pay your workers less than $15 per hour, there is something wrong with your business model. And the numbers you came up with (you offer no link, so I assume they're made up) sound like a poorly chosen business plan. If the minimum wage is $15, her competitors will be paying that too, so she can, just like they will, raise prices 50 cents or so to make up for it.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)I have many years experience evaluating small to medium sized businesses as to their profitability, and have looked at literally thousands of financial statements over this period. If you don't believe me and wish to obtain a realistic representation of such take a look at bizbuysell.com, a website for those who have posted their businesses for sale. I would say trust me - and I realize there's no need for you to do so - but the majority of mom and pops just do not make that much money, especially when you consider the amount of time the owners spend in an attempt to turn a profit.
On the other hand, you are full of proclamations about 'business models', have you ever OWNED a small business? I doubt it, in fact I seriously doubt you have the slightest inkling as to the financial workings of a small business and even less as to economics. You have an axe to grind but nothing but emotion to back it up.
I'll start you out with this, here's a link to a Subway for sale. Take a look at the net, and how much you'd have to pay to buy this location. Then please tell me how YOU, as a compassionate owner, will increase wages to $15/hr just so you won't be charged with paying 'slave wages' and still turn a profit. Good luck!!!
http://www.bizbuysell.com/Business-Opportunity/Subway-Sandwich-Shop-in-Great-Location/675983/?d=%2fwEFQiUyZmJ1c2luZXNzZXMtZm9yLXNhbGUlMmYyJTJmJTNmcSUzZCUyZndFRkVXczljM1ZpZDJGNUptNDlKbkowY3oweA%3d%3d
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)I hope you don't advise your clients that this is a good deal. It does not say how many employees you'll need, but I would be wary of any franchise. If had a yearning to open an sandwich shop, I would just buy a mom and pop sandwich shop without all that overhead.
Funny thing about an anonymous board, you never know who you are talking to. As a matter of fact, I have a business degree, and I do own a small service business with my husband. We've been in business since 1998 and have two long time, loyal employees, both of whom make well over $15 an hour. We don't make a lot of money, but we are comfortable, as are our employees. We have been able to buy our own house near the beach, and our employees have bought houses too, albeit a bit inland. No small accomplishment in Southern California. But I (and you) digress. And none of that is relevant anyway.
You keep ignoring my point. If the minimum wage is set at $15, everyone will have to pay that amount, fast food restaurants will all raise prices a little to compensate for this (or pay their CEOs a little less). They will still be able to turn a profit. If we spread the wealth around a little bit, it will be better for everyone.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)but owning a sandwich shop is of no interest to me regardless of price. At the time I was doing this I found it better to keep my personal likes and dislikes out of the equation. I helped them to understand the financials, the lease, what-if analysis, comparing the pros and cons of one business vs. another, etc. If something looked “fishy” to me I’d certainly bring it to their attention, and often this was enough to dissuade them. But in the end they each have their unique goals and aspirations.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to as ‘all that overhead’ in a mom/pop vs. franchise. For many buyers a franchise is I believe a better way to go. They have a proven name brand with lots of advertising, typically better locations for several reasons, training, structure, design, marketing, less chance of going out of business and a number of other services. All of which results in higher sales vs. a mom/pop although there is certainly a high cost for this as well.
I’m not purposely ignoring your point, I much prefer a direct question and if I don’t know or you can change my mind I’ll admit it. Getting back to the business with $300K sales, food cost at 30% = $90K, rent-utilities-insurance-etc of $75K plus wages of $80K leaves the owner a net of $55K. If the average employee is at $9/hr, a raise to $15/hr will increase wages by $56K, leaving the owner nothing. Not only that, but this base wage is going to create tension with those who were formerly earning $14/hr. That aside, I have to believe that food costs will go up as well. The folks who make the bread, provide the produce, napkins etc will be affected by this too. How much, who knows, but even if only 15% it will increase the food cost by $14K. So for the business owner to get back to the $55K level he will need to increase sales by $107K to cover these increases, for an across the board price increase of 35%.
And this is not just restaurants, other retail will be affected. Clothing, groceries, coffee shops, department stores will all feel the impact. And what about those on a fixed income who are just getting by the way it is. I’ll pretend for now that there will not be a huge increase in unemployment. Have you considered the inflationary impact on housing? It would be significant. All of a sudden a couple of 18 year olds just out of high school will be earning $60,000 per year! Ain’t that great! I think they’re gonna want a better place to live, don’t you? After all, instead of the $900 in rent they were paying before they can easily spend $2,000 or even buy a house, maybe from the guy they work for as he’ll be forced to take their former apartment, with a displace senior citizen as a roommate. Imagine the power of the dual income 18 year olds working at the Gap and Pizza Hut.
This is much more than spreading the wealth around a little, it’s catastrophic. Fortunately it won’t happen.
As an aside I’m in San Diego so I’m well aware of the cost of housing, good for you.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)See the charts in post #310 below. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3567732
The numbers in your hypothetical do not reflect any ongoing business I am aware of. Those are pretty low sales for such a high rent. If I was crazy enough to buy a sandwich shop, I would pick a popular mom and pop where the folks wanted to retire (established client base, no franchise fees). But I would not do a food business. Way too much work. That business you describe does not make sense; I don't know why anyone would do it even with $9/hour workers. And in most mom and pops with that low a yearly revenue, the owners (mom and pop) are the main workers, with a couple minimum wage part-timers. So increasing their wages from $9 to $15 would increase costs only by $12k per year ($6 x 20/hr/wk x 2 part-timers x 52 wks/year=$12,480). If the owners have to increase prices, they will be able to do so since other businesses with minimum wage workers will do so also. Something you keep ignoring. This hypothetical sandwich shop must make good sandwiches for a fair price. Capitalism does not guarantee every entrepreneur success. Workers should not be exploited so owners can make a buck.
Requiring a living wage for the bottom of the wage scale is not going to raise house prices through the roof. No one making $15/hour or a household making $60,000 (their take-home pay will be a lot less, after health insurance, payroll taxes, etc. are deducted) can afford much of a house in California, as you know. They'd have to go pretty far inland to the desert or similar spots. What it will allow them to do is rent a decent apartment and move out of their parents' house. You can't afford a $2,000 mortgage and the attendant expenses of home ownership on a $60k gross family income. And it isn't just 18-year-olds, but the seniors you're so concerned about who will benefit from the higher minimum wage. There's plenty of seniors working at the fast food joints and small businesses around my house. With people making more, they'll be able to afford paying a little more for their fast food, and their rent. Plus, seniors on low fixed incomes are eligible for HUD housing that requires them to pay only 30% of their income toward rent. HUD pays the difference between that and the market rent. I know. My mom had one of those apartments. Plus seniors have Medicare.
Young people have no such safety net. If they can't pay rent, they move in with their parents or in their car. And if you're over 26 and/or not on your parents' policy, you've got to come up with money for health insurance. And a car to get to work. And clothes for work...etc. They desperately need a living wage just to cover the basics. That is why it is immoral to pay anyone, including 18 year olds, only $7/hour.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)There are thousands of locales outside the ‘high rent’ areas where one can purchase a home for less than $150K. For example, properties in the Indianapolis metropolitan region (population 1.7 million) are among the largest in the country at a median 1,940 square feet. However, the median listing price in the area, according to Realtor.com, is just $133,000. Or Wichita KS, or Toledo or etc. If you can put 10% down and obtain financing the payment before taxes/insurance would be around $725.
Regarding my hypothetical, the intention was to show that an increase in wages has a tremendous effect on the bottom line of small businesses. I looked up the average annual sales for Subway, they’re around $450K. On the other hand, Baskin-Robbins comes in at $220K. The main point is that in the FF business you can count on wages being 20-25% of sales. For the average McDonald’s doing $2.4 million this is $480K to $600K. Doubling this amount requires a lot of additional revenue for the owner to make the same amount as before, the other point being that a lot of small business owners are barely making it the way it is, although I will admit that I’m of the opinion that some of these folks should just fail and be done with it. I’ve seen too many ‘Crappy Deli #1’ that should just fold - their customers will end up across the street at ‘Crappy Deli #2’, allowing at least one of the two to make a few bucks. But that also means more people unemployed.
How about this idea. There must be tens of millions of folks who support this. Why not start a chain of fast food restaurants which pay a minimum wage of $15/hour. Those who support the raise could refuse to patronize any establishment that paid 'slave wages'. If they're successful, they will provide a model for the other venues to either follow or go bust. And they wouldn't necessarily even have to raise prices to compete, just reduce the portion sizes by 10% or so, we consume too many calories the way it is.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)None of the horribles you keep predicting happened then and they won't happen now.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)but I sense that we're at the end of the line here. One last note, I usually toss Sunday's 'Parade' but today it was on labor so I took a look, a number of stories about mfg jobs. One was about a woman living in Detroit who lost her job of ten years working on an auto parts line. This was five years ago, and the single mother of three lost her home. But now she's working at start-up company making upscale wristwatches. I don't know how much she earns, or others like her who work for companies that might rely on foreign trade.
I'd hate to see her and others lose their job if raising wages to $15/hr cause the foreign buyers to go elsewhere. I know there's a company in GA or AL that makes chopsticks for export to China. Again, not sure of how much workers earn but if the company is forced to raise prices and told by their customers they found another supplier what happens to the worker. They might have preferred a job vs. not having one. But I guess all of their workers can apply to McDonalds. Oh, and when the McD's and their ilk are deluged with applications from the better educated how long will it be before those whose only skill set IS this type of work are unable to find employment?
What happens to small town America. There are only so many jobs to go around, and to think that a $15 min wage will not reduce employment is naive. The problem with a high federal wage is that the cost of living varies greatly. Like I said, if a couple of 18 yr olds can earn $60K/yr in Dodge City they'll be in high clover.
For what it's worth, I'm in favor of raising the minimum wage to $9 or so, but I'm more interested in bringing mfg jobs back to the U.S.
Thanks again for hanging in there.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)We can't engage in a race to the bottom when it comes to wages. The third world will always have lower wages. We don't want to be a third world country. That is why we have to compete by being smarter, more productive, more innovative than our international competitors. We did it before, back when we poured money into education and infrastructure and R&D. And fast food jobs can't be outsourced anyway.
By the way, when you keep harping about how ridiculous it is for an 18 year old couple to pull down $60,000 together working at a fast food joint, that they'd be in "high clover," you are in essense saying they don't deserve that. I find that really offensive. Particularly since the couple would be making that if it was 1968 (in 1968 dollars), before Reaganomics fucked up our country. Workers, all of us, deserve a living wage.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)'harping' at me for bringing it up. Have you ever driven through a 10,000 population town in the middle of nowhere? Do you think any of the tacky little food/retail/service businesses along Main St. are paying their employees anything more than minimum wage? More to the point, do you even CARE what would happen to these small mom and pops if they were forced to double their payroll?
Do you think the nature of their economy, which I would guess to be mostly farming related AND local, would allow these small businesses to raise their prices by 25% and not lose customers and/or lay off workers?
In 2000, slightly more than one-half of the nation’s population lived in jurisdictions --- cities, towns, boroughs, villages and townships --- with fewer than 25,000 people or in rural areas (from one source, accurate?).
Again, the fact that a couple of teenagers with no experience in the workplace, just out of high school with C- averages can earn $60,000 per year on the surface seems troubling to me, even more so if they live in a small town. For example, Columbus, Nebraska has a population of 22,000. The median income for a household in the city is $38,874, and the median income for a family is $48,669. In this environment the '$60K Kids' would indeed be in 'high clover'. Whether or not they 'deserve' it is the type of esoteric question which keeps 2nd year philosophy/sociology students pontificating into the wee hours on a drug/alcohol fueled Friday night, none of whom will actually ever LIVE in one of those small towns.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)If you work 40 hours a week, you should not have to get food stamps. Even if you're 18. Even in a small town. Australia has a $16 minimum wage and plenty of tiny towns "in the middle of nowhere." What they don't have is rural poverty like we have here. Every worker, no matter how old, should be paid a decent wage. You don't have be on a "drug/alcohol fueled" binge to think that. You just have to be a decent human being. Amazing that you would post your insulting anti-worker crap on Labor Day.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:19 AM - Edit history (1)
"One major proposal, however, wouldn’t involve budget outlays: the president’s call for a rise in the minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $9, with subsequent increases in line with inflation. The question we need to ask is: Would this be good policy? And the answer, perhaps surprisingly, is a clear yes.
Why “surprisingly”? Well, Economics 101 tells us to be very cautious about attempts to legislate market outcomes. Every textbook — mine included — lays out the unintended consequences that flow from policies like rent controls or agricultural price supports. And even most liberal economists would, I suspect, agree that setting a minimum wage of, say, $20 an hour would create a lot of problems. "
Paul Krugman, like President Obama, supports an increase in the minimum wage to $9.00. I not only support this, but $10/hr would be fine with me. And yet one could infer from your posts that I'm 'indecent', 'insulting' for suggesting that anything less than $15 is still worthy of consideration. I suggest you focus your anger on those who can make a difference vs. an anonymous poster.
Beyond that, you're responses are more emotional than rational. I've tried to bring up issues that are of concern to me, such as the huge differences between urban and rural communities. I've even taken the time to look up stats about various towns, and yet you fail to even address these issues. Such as the definition of what constitutes a living wage. Is it not reasonable to consider one's environment as part of the equation? Not for YOU, your one solution is all that you'll consider and all others be damned.
Again, take it up with President Obama. He's pushing for much less than I'm willing to support.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)I did not say we should not consider $9 or 10, just that $15 is what it should be. $9 or 10 is not a living wage, but it is still better than what we have, and considering what Obama has to deal with in Congress, will be tough to get as it is.
It is kind of like healthcare reform. We should have single payer, but if we held out for that, we'd still have nothing. At least now we have 30 million more Americans covered. $9/hour is not what the minimum wage should be, but of course we should take it if we can get it, since it is a helluva lot better than $7/hour. $7/hour is immoral, does not keep up with inflation, making it much less than the 1960's minimum wage, nor does it come even close to keeping up with increases in U.S. worker productivity over the last 50 years.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)"The federal min. wage should be raised to $15, like it was in the 1960s in real dollars."
The federal minimum wage in 1967 was $1.40, the equivalent of $9.70/hr in current dollars.
Try again.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)If minimum wage workers received raises commensurate with their increases in productivity, the minimum wage would be $21.72.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html
But the fast food workers are only asking for $15. Seems reasonable to me.
BTW, calculated in real 2012 dollars, the 1968 (not the 1967) minimum wage was the highest at $10.51. http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)the 18 year old high school graduates with a C- average grade, are entitled to a household income of $90,000/year for working at Taco Bell right out of school. Life in your Utopian world is great!
Please promote this far and wide, so libs/progressives/dems et al will continue to be taken seriously.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)delete_bush
(1,712 posts)by those who believe that entry level, unskilled jobs should pay $45,000 per year, notwithstanding the fact that such would completely destroy our economy to the point where there would be massive unemployment and those folks that 'anger me' would be out of work forever.
And only because it gives you an air of superiority to propose such nonsense.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)I consider a living wage a basic human right.
Considering how badly workers are being exploited in that the profits from their increased (more than doubled) productivity over the last 50 years was stolen by business owners, just asking for a living wage, as opposed to the $21 they could ask for, seems reasonable to me.
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)But why wait, lead by example.
Instead of allowing greedy business owners to steal from their employees, raise capital for a new fast food chain. One that pays its employees a minimum of $15/hr. Perhaps the SEIU and other unions would invest. Those who agree with you can frequent the new chain and refuse to buy from the others.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Your suggestion is like saying if you believe in environmental regulations, run a clean business and let everyone everyone else pollute. See who everyone does business with. I hear that line from Republicans all the time. Well, in this economy and with wages the way they are, people are going to go with the business that has the lower prices. It is predictable that businesses can offer lower prices by not paying the cost to clean up their waste and/or because they pay slave wages. That is Walmart's and Exxon's business model. That has to stop.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Ford paid those salaries in the 1920s. During the Great Depression he cut them in half, like we mostly have done in the US. What did Ford get for that? Oh yes, the famous Flint Michigan Sit In.
Theyletmeeatcake2
(348 posts)Didn't someone workout that increasing the price of a burger by 22c could increase the wage to $15 or vice versa. Makes sense as those people can then spend more and that increases GDP ...those wacky Keynsians what do they know!!!!!prove 'em wrong you free market racketeers out there!!!!There's no trickle down effect and they know it.... As for people treating economics like a science well the definition of science is that you can replicate a result each time ...I guess getting ripped off by the 1% happens again and again.... 
Pommie Dinko Cirtbag
(27 posts)Minimum wage (which is STILL lower than the US's but was a joke 12 years ago) boosts -- every year it's been raised a bit over inflation (WHICH HAS NOT SPIRALLED OUT AS A RESULT IF I MAY ADD) was, IMHO, THE big factor in the good decade we had, economy-wise. Also, we're being hit somewhat softer by the current crisis.
Take THAT, worker-haters.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)
DURec
Phentex
(16,334 posts)for all parties concerned...
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)fast food. They can afford to pay a fair wage.
Kingofalldems
(38,461 posts)over workers asking for a raise, but silent when a corporate big shot gets a golden parachute.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
polynomial
(750 posts)into the land of the one percenters, which is in this essay called the Franchise Concept. If you will indulge me, while navigating into this highly private secret economic area, many interesting results manifest themselves for intelligent debate the mainstream media will never deliver.
That includes real estate manipulation, local employment, and especially a shift away from the basics in the Constitution for the development of a Democracy. The Franchise concept reveals the shift towards economic tyranny all under the flag of nationalism.
What in the hell is the point here? Answer ; some small to medium towns can be viewed as mostly franchise driven economy. Please understand I have no axe to grind towards anyone political party, just to understand the down side of franchise concept, this is my opinion expressed here.
If there is a fault in the system these representatives in congress and the senate share the shame, plus the media is the key player that perpetuates that shame, that awkwardness that chains Americans to poverty.
One time traveling through a very upscale town in a north suburb of Chicago at night it is noticed that most if not all the marquees of business lighting the road way to capture business is the franchise. Small independent proprietary ownership was few if at all. This culture of franchise is the issue. Actually looking for the name of the town or village was not easy.
Now especially, big box business looking for tax breaks plus willing to higher local residence shrinks the revenue base with stagnant wages.
Just like loop holes do for national politics. Think about this, when all
these characteristic converge, plus cutting labor, like police, teachers, public works winds up cutting tax income revenue. Government is not out of money but is out of balance.
America is in a depression but the leadership or top business will not make the admission. Of course not, if an admission to a depression is made there is the likely hood the one percenters will lose all their wealth.
Think about this, the one percenters have already displayed themselves as scoundrels, swindlers, or just plain economic parasites on the system please beware of the wrath handed out while they lose what they had. It is happening now.
From my view we the people should go a step further to reduce or eliminate some of this franchise concept. Much of it is in the category of too big to fail attitude, or what early business calls antitrust stuff which I will admit know little of however, in my opinion could be very versed openly educated by mainstream media but are not.
So here are we wide open to the complicity in corrupt government, business, and media all working in concert that stymie’s American in poverty. Yes it is a very harsh statement to make, but
If there are those who love the basic concept of American Democracy getting tough and critical will make the system better.
Especially for those of us who voted for that moment to be able to do something good for all America not just the one percent. Yes, I voted for President Obama expecting that moment to be address with action taken to effect for the ninety nine percent. What we the people didn’t expect is President Obama to put a cork on the trickle down economy, to trickle back to the one percenters economy. Plus continue the war, torture, profiteering policies for the few one percenters.
Guess you could understand how anyone could be upset, very upset, angry With the system that as Pelosi said “We the people won’t know what we get till we vote for the bill”. That’s not government for my grandchild, but likely government for her grandchildren. A very painful realization, enough to make anyone go insane.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)What are things I've never said, Alex.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)K&R
malaise
(269,072 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I wish strikers luck, but there's no way they're going to get $15/hr, not when people with college educations are struggling to find work at $10 to $12.
It took my son almost 2 years to even find a job in fast food, and he has a masters degree in paralegal studies. There are a few jobs in his field, but they all require 5 or more years of experience.
If every fast food worker walked off the job today, they could be replaced pretty quickly. It's a zero skill job. Literally any physically able person can do it. You only need to know a handful of English words to survive.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)That's why workers walk out all at once, that's why we demonize and harass the fuck out of scab workers.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)college grads can't find work at $10. People who used to make 6 figures have seen their pay cut by 30, 40, or 50% or more. Wages are in a deflationary spiral, unless you're a 1%-er.
I'd love to see fast food workers get $15. My kid is among them, after spending $200,000 on higher education only to find a stagnant job market. Awl of his friends, all college-educated, are working in retail or fast food. It fucking sucks. Profitable companies are raking in megabucks while they work their existing staff to death rather than hire more help.
Perhaps a stronger way to deal with this would be to get these mofos via the tax code. If they won't pay workers a livng wage, and they need relief from the government, that money should be recouped one way or another. I hate to see more people dependent on handouts, but I don't see employers granting large pay increases when 20% of the workforce is idle or under-utilized.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)No we're not.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)But it sure looks like a depression for the tens of millions of people who, if they're lucky enough to have a job, have had their wages and benefits cut, and if they're unfortunate enough to not have a job, are finding that the workforce is completely inaccessible if you're over 50 or under 25.
Sorry for the melodrama, but things are far worse than I've ever seen them in my lifetime, and I'm 57 y/o. I don't see anyone selling a recipe to make things better. The millions of jobs that have gone overseas or been eliminated through increases in automation and efficiently are not coming back.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)They have become the equivalent of old factory jobs, only they don't now PAY the equivalent of those jobs. In a sense, they are the new industrial jobs as we enter 21st Century.
And the Second Age of Unions.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)added value to our economy. Those jobs produced stuff that we sold all overthe world, which brought wealth into our country.
If you increase wages without adding value, I think it's possible that those wage increases will be eaten away by inflation rather quickly.
Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)Millions of jobs disappearing has nothing to do with "automation and efficiency". They disappeared because companies produced goods in countries where labor was not allowed to unionize and they could get away with paying their workforce a fraction of what they paid their workers in the U.S. Workers putting together iPhones for $285/mo. in China comes to mind.
This is where pro-business people would claim that higher pay leads to higher consumer prices. But the reason an iPhone produced in the U.S would not go up is because prices are based on demand, not costs. What WILL happen if iPhones were produced in the U.S. would mean Apple will make a lower profit.... no big deal.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I have first hand knowledge of this.
I started my professional career in 1977 as a mechanical engineer in the disk drive industry. In those days, everything was done on the drawing board - sheer tedium. It took days to make even minor changes. A design team had about 20 mech engineers and it took 2 years to turn a product out.
In 1982 the first major mechanical CAD program, Unigraphics, made its debut. Design teams went from 20 to 12 and mistakes became much rarer. Many different design iterations could be tried.
In 1986, Pro/Engineer made its appearance, and this was a truly disruptive technology. An engineer could now fulfill the job of both designer and draftsman, and a whole class of job was eliminated. Mistakes became almost impossible to make, and the design cycle went down to 8 months.
CAD and finite element software continued to become faster, more capable, and easier to use, until we got down to 4 people on a team. The entire design could be digitally mocked up and verified without cutting a single piece of metal.
Similar efficiencies have been realized in the automotive and who knows how many other industries. GM now makes the same number of vehicles with 60,000 people as it used to with 600,000 people.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,036 posts)As a machinist I have seen this as well over the last 20+ years. Within the last 10 it has become incredible. What used to take a first class machinist to do now simply takes an operator, a person who makes $12/hr and stands next to an automatic machine and puts pieces of metal in them. The piece is then removed and placed in another machine and so on ... when it is done it is inspected by a 3D measuring machine and any adjustments are made to the program.
There is no skill set there and one operator can keep several machines busy at a time. The money is made by the programmer and already there are machines which are beginning to interpret CAD drawings which will eliminate the programmer. Changes will be made to the CAD process to make them "machine ready" and another whole group will be eliminated.
I am simply lucky that I found the big ass machines interesting when I started in this trade, the truly big CNC machines cost into the millions and most still run the old school monsters that were made in the 50-70's making my skills special and my value high. Simply put, they do not train people to use high speed steel tooling anymore and grinding a profile is just not done ... except by us old school people left around.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)with Mastercam. We'd send him files directly from Pro/e and he'd walk the parts over to our desk a few hours later. Simply amazing. He replaced a six-man model shop, and the other guys - they went off to production machining jobs, where, as you say, they pretty much kept the beast fed with stock.
You should think about adding Solidworks and Pro/e to your toolset. There's still a need for good CAD modelers. Plus, it's a lot of fun. But if you can keep doing your thing and enjoy it, then hang in there. There will always be a need for good machinists. Engineers don't know all the tricks.
Lurker Deluxe
(1,036 posts)I haven't been in the production side in over a decade, I saw the writing on the wall.
Now I take whatever part needs repair and machine it down, weld it up, perform stress relief, machine back to original (or modified) specification so it can be placed back in service.
I am able to do complex drawings in AutoCad in 2D, and simple drawings in 3D, and am still pretty good with pencil and paper. I write well enough that I can get the reports out so our customers understand what work was performed in the shop to justify the costs involved, and through the years have picked up enough skills to perform the entire rebuild process from quote to invoice covering all facets of the process including maintaining current welding certs to make it all legit.
I could have moved to a full time desk job anytime over the last decade ... just not my thing.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)xchrom
(108,903 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)grads can't find work at $10.
I wish everyone could get a $5 raise, especially me, but I don't see it happening.
Let me turn things around for a second - do you think people who've no formal education or training should be paid more than college graduates? We're not talking about people who run into burning buildings or defuse bombs. It's dishwashers and French fryers.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)The jobs requiring years or decades of formal education and training?
And please don't tell me that doctors and engineers will work for $10 out of love of the work, because that's bullshit.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Of income disparity?
You even dragged out 'incentive'.
(in your hands - it's kicking & screaming)
Do you write for bill o'reilly?
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I'm not talking CEO salary versus zero-skill workers, I'm talking skilled college graduates versus zero-skill workers. It was you who stated that it would be perfectly fine for zero–skill workers to make more money than skilled college graduates - people who've spent 4, 6, or 8 years learning a profession vs people who can learn every aspect of their jobs in 5 minutes.
That's just nuts.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)15 will mean an upward pressure on wage scales. This means a college graduate will start at 20, at least.
Hey, read Adam smith for all I care, he even argues that a living wage is essential for a healthy market.
You have read and lived under Friedman economic theories and Chicago school. Trust me, Keynes works.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)education and skill levels needn't be compensated at a higher rate than fast food workers. At least that's how I interpreted his posts.
All I've maintained throughout this topic is that all labor is not equal. Higher skills/education/ability should be compensated at a higher rate, with some adjustment for market demand. Otherwise, we erect disincentives to higher learnings and skills - not the best way to compete in a global job market.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)my niece graduated from College, with a fancy college degree, she cannot get anything above fifteen.
her education is paid for, but if it was not, tell me... when will she pay it off?
We already have it, with part time, freelance work, and college education not providing the bang for the buck.
We have had a flattening of wage scales, with few exceptions, and a disparity in income that has not been seen since 1929 or so.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Working at Boston Market for $8.50. It stinks. He keeps getting interviews for paralegal positions, but everyone demands 5 years experience.
This is what I meant when I alluded to the social compact being busted. Work hard, study, stay out of trouble, and you'll get... Nothing.
If the wage for fast food workers - and that's who we're talking about in this thread - went to $15, he'd be reluctant to continue his job search because he thinks $15 is a worldly sum. Why bust you ass for a law firm when you can get the same money washing dishes?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It's a well proven upwards wage pressure that broke a generation ago with Reagan
Seriously, read Keynes.
If we see Unions grow again, he might even see his pay start at $25.00. That is why
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)read Krugman. The problem is lack of political will to implement wage reform across the board. Congress is fully owned by corporate interests.
That leaves striking for it, I guess,
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Labor movement 2.0
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)And why do you think that has anything to do with the workers featured in this OP?
Fast food workers don't need your approval to strike for higher wages
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)leftstreet
(36,109 posts) Flatulo
(5,005 posts)for any particular field of study. I expect no matter where you go, there will be an expectation that higher education merits higher compensation.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)and show me a better line of reasoning?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Flatulo
(5,005 posts)$15 is hardly livable in any major metropolitan area. If you have more than one mouth to feed, forget it.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Of course it needs to be scaled based on local living costs. In most major metro areas 15 is probably close enough. This is not that complicated an issue. You should be able to live on the wages paid for working a normal work week.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)On a macroeconomic scale, I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter very much, since not many workers earn the actual min.
muse03
(24 posts)While I do agree that these workers deserve some sort of raise, I think $15 an hour is unreasonable for a worker at a fast food restaurant.
We can't encourage people to make a career out of flipping burgers, if they want more money then they should join the army, go to college or learn some sort of skill that makes them valuable to employers.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)A fucking living wage - we will all benefit.
muse03
(24 posts)We don't deserve anything, this country was founded on the PURSUIT of happiness not the handing out of happiness. If you want to earn a living wage then pursue it by going to college, learning a skill or doing something to better yourself in order to make more money.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)put myself through college, and made gobs of money as an engineer for 35 years.
But the social contract has been broken. Kids are working hard, going into massive debt to get training, and coming out to find - jobs in fast food or retail.
Good jobs have been wiped out by a combination of outsourcing and increased efficiency and automation. There are simply more people than there are jobs.
What do you propose that kids do who've gone to school and gotten good (expensive) educations, and I'm not talking about art history or soviet dance. I'm talking law, business, accounting, etc.
I used to be a 'bootstraps' kind of guy, but my eyes are wide open now. The mind-bogging wealth created by increased efficiency has not been trickled down - it's gone to the top .01%. I saw this happen first hand throughout my career. Corporate America is a crime family.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)you don't support workers organizing to TAKE control of the social contract? And that means TAKING that wealth from the criminals that own it and redistributing it to all of us.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)My thoughts and philosophy on this issue of wealth distribution are complicated, but I'll try to explain them. I hope this doesn't come across as lecturing - it's just my little worldview.
First off, I believe that money has a real intrinsic value, and that value can be measured in terms of what it can be exchanged for without using coercion or theft or other forms of gaming the system. The currency itself is just a symbol of that value.
When corporate leadership started arbitrarily declaring that their worth was 2X, 10X, 20X and more than what it was previously, more or less overnight, and without adding any actual value to our economy, bad things happened, things that have had macro-economic effects. The job of corporate leadership turned from creation of tangible goods to destruction of the means to create them. They did this by wrecking great companies that had been built by brilliant engineer/entrepreneurs, selling off the pieces to Chinese interests and taking the proceeds for themselves. Our elected officials did nothing to stop this, and in fact looked the other way while corporate governance became outright theft.
The kinds of things that make a country wealthy are not hamburgers - they are machine tools, agricultural products (including food), computers, airframes, heavy equipment, and consumer items that you can sell to your trading partners. So the kinds of things that most minimum wage workers are creating - namely cheap meals, do nothing to add to our collective wealth. It's like Ross Perot said back in 198o - you can't have an economy when we're all just giving each other haircuts.
So in some ways, I think that just doubling the wages of the service sector without adding any real value to the economy, will just be an inflationary measure. In a few years, the new wages will have no more purchasing power than the current wage.
Secondly, I'm not sure that we want to make it so easy to survive on fast-food wages. I think people should be motivated to become engineers and scientists and plumbers and electricians and carpenters. If everyone can pay their rent, have a decent car, have high-speed Internet and a smartphone and data plan and a 42" TV with 500 hi-def channels, why would anyone bust their ass to acquire more wealth? Do we want to tell people that fast food is a good and sound career choice?
I'm thinking more long term. China is graduating 4,000,000 engineers each year to our 90,000. At this rate, how long will it be before we are their third world labor force?
I worked at McD's when I was 16, and I said Fuck This Shit and went and busted my ass and got a degree in mechanical engineering. If I was able to live comfortably on those wages, maybe I wouldn't have been motivated to improve my lot. (Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know that one cannot pay for college with anything less than a trust fund, so times have changed - that's part of what I meant when I said that the social compact had been broken).
Now before everyone misreads what I've written, let me make it very clear that I fully support the right of anyone to strike for higher wages. If workers can hurt the fast food franchises enough, then they will have to cough up more money, and that would be proof that the work they do has more value than they're being currently compensated at. Frankly, I don't think the work is worth $15, especially when college grads are struggling to find work at $10 per hour. Several posters have scolded me with 'well, this is about the fast food workers, not everyone else', but that smacks of 'fuck-you-I've-got-mine-ism'.
I've tried to answer you as honestly and I can. My attitude is decidedly libertarian as regards wages, which is a philosophy I ascribed to for most of my life. But in the last decade or so I've observed corporate theft on a breathtaking scale and have committed to returning to higher tax rates and more redistribution to correct this unstable, out of control system we've become. We're headed off a cliff if we don't turn things around in some way.
Maybe I'm all wet and raising the minimum wage to $15 won't have any appreciable effect. I honestly don't know how many people at the minimum wage are primary wage earners, but I'm sure it's a lot more than when I was a kid, and the only people in these jobs were pimply faced kids working for gas money.
I don't have any skin in this game, as I don't eat any fast food at all, but even if I did, I wouldn't cross any picket lines. People do have the right to fight for more. Especially since the guys at the top have simply stolen it.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)make up the difference.
food stamps, housing subsidies, indigent care at the er.
you're selfishness and lack of empathy are leading you astray.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Enjoy your stay on DU, for as long as it lasts.
valerief
(53,235 posts)socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)No wonder I'm a commie.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Why don't those losers go get a job? 
SOLIDARITY with WORKERS!
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)So you're one of those that think the working poor should be used as cannon fodder?
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)They clean the kitchen and dining room, restroom, parking lot, take out trash, wash dishes, stock the restaurant with supplies, provide customer service, etc... And most of them are on call with different start times every day and no predictable quitting time, making it difficult to add another job to make ends meet.
All of this is important work that needs to be done for the business to function and it is worth much more than they are making now. You might personally feel that none of their contributions are worth a decent wage but that is just your opinion.
IMO, a large wage increase is justified based on how long wages at the bottom have been stagnant. If wages aren't keeping up with inflation over decades and the govt. will not do anything about it, the workers have no choice but to take action.
And there is nothing wrong with doing that job, either. Having that job is not a failure or an embarrassment that they should be ashamed of doing until they can find something "better". Their hard work makes them valuable and there is dignity in any kind of work if you take pride in it and make the customers happy.
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)survive on even that. All workers deserve a decent livable wage and no worker should live in poverty.
ChaoticTrilby
(211 posts)1. Basic Negotiation - Make a high offer you know you won't be able to get, so that they'll meet you half-way.
2. Unions can negotiate too, remarkably, and in a big way. They have for a good century or so, even if they've been under the radar for too damn long. Minimum wage exists at all because of them.
3. College costs money, or puts people in extreme debt. It also takes up time that could be used for working/finding better jobs/sleeping.
4. The military kills people. We do NOT WANT TO ENCOURAGE THAT. For too long have the poor had to choose between wage slavery and dying in rich peoples' wars. No, thank you.
5. Learning skills almost always requires teachers. Teachers cost money to hire, unless they are one's parents. Not everyone has a parent with a skill.
There will always be a need for People Who Flip Burgers. That is just the truth. Say that, against all odds, every single burger-flipper did as you suggested and learned a skill that made them viable "skilled" (and I don't even want to get into the skilled/unskilled debate) employees. Say that, even more amazingly, they all found jobs working for other businesses. At that point, businesses like McDonalds would need to pay more in order to keep up with competition...and business that suddenly found themselves with a surplus of "skilled" workers would need to pay less or else find some way to otherwise cut costs. Like firing people, which would bring us full-circle as businesses like McDonalds would get their "unskilled labor" back. But of course, more likely, people just wouldn't be hired no matter what skill they have. "Skills" do not guarantee jobs, believe it or not - not in an economy like this one.
I'm starting to ramble but, to sum it up, you sound somewhat naive. There will always be a need for "unskilled" labor. And "unskilled labor" will, like everyone else, always have a need for food and survival. If backed into a corner where survival becomes far too difficult, they, like anyone else, will fight back and they will do so peacefully, as with unions (which you seem to discourage,) or violently.
For everyone's good, I would recommend supporting the peaceful method.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)It is disgusting that businesses can get away with paying poverty level wages to people. Every single person who works should have the dignity of making enough money to afford the basic necessities of life, including healthcare.
Joe Shlabotnik
(5,604 posts)Excellent! 
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)The amount of contempt for labor and the working poor in this thread is unbelievable.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)for those who can't close their monthly gaps.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)Calling people who get up and go to work every day "lazy"? Post #115 sure sounds a lot like trickle down economics to me. If I get in trouble for calling him/her out, so be it.
I'm really sick of this shit. I expect anti-union/anti-worker rhetoric from Republicans, but I'm going to call it out whenever I see it in the Democratic party.
The poor should go "join the army"? Good fucking grief.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)Not neolibs. Just plain liberals. They do not give a shit about the working class. 
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)most of the time anyway. The neo-libs are just more open about it. I'm a commie. I KNOW where I stand.
DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)Boycott fast food until they raise wages is something I will support.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)This thread is a disaster of rightwing idiocy.
valerief
(53,235 posts)leftstreet
(36,109 posts)not to excuse it
Too many measure their wage satisfaction by the amount of people making less than they are
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)greiner3
(5,214 posts)De facto, would be $15.00.
Fast food is the most 'bottom rung' of low skilled workers.
So by raising these millions of workers wages, most other workers making about minimum wage would have to raise theirs or remain in a constant slots to fill.
Also, in negotiating, you ask for the moon but settle for the Space Station.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Makes close to 15 now would be instantly poor as prices adjust.
Its crazy to pay so much for no skill jobs
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)on the backs of people who don't even make enough money to live on.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Qually amonf the staff and it will be less than 1 cent an hour........
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)and divide THAT among all the workers. THEN we do it EVERYWHERE.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)To tar and feather him and most of all shame his family lol
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)ALL of them are trapped by the system into doing what they do. I'd much rather smash the system than tar and feather somebody. Doing the latter just feels good for a little while. Doing the former changes the paradigm for the economy.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)It's classic Keynseian economics and it would lead to a stimulus nd a reversal of the historic downward pressure in salaries.
Take a good look at the chart here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023559758
Also consider this, brazil raised the minimum and now indexes it for inflation. I know this will come as a shock to you but this has not led to runaway inflation.
There is another benefit to this, less dependence in state benefits.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Also I want you to get a good look at the chart in that OP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023559758
valerief
(53,235 posts)I don't want to hear anything from anyone who can't support this strike.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)I don't eat at any fast food joints anyway, so I will not be crossing any picket lines.
libodem
(19,288 posts)We should not eat fast food for a week in solidarity. Shamefully it is a weakness for me. I'm on strike now, though!!! No fast food for me!!!
Good thing I made some chili-mac. Homemade junk food.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and it would run McDonnalds 68 cents increase in the price of their premiere burger (yup I wrote that, premiere burger and McDonnalds) to make up for an increase in wages to $15.00. What it would do to the economy is a heck of a stimulus and perhaps the end of you and me paying for SNAP.
Oh and that would mean a heck of a stim for a pay increase across the US.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/mcdonalds-salaries_n_3672006.html
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)It says so in the article you linked to.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)The very first paragraph
On Monday, The Huffington Post published a story entitled "Doubling McDonald's Salaries Would Cause Your Big Mac To Cost Just 68¢ More." HuffPost has since learned that the research used as the basis of the story contains significant errors that cast doubts on its claims
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Half an hour ago it was another article.
It still means this increase $1.28 to $5.27.
I am sorry, but the point still stands...it will not break Mickey Ds. As to their claim of layoffs, I got my doubts
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)It is just off for privately owned McDonalds franchises.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)If a franchise labor cost is around 33%, then the labor for a corporate owned store is also going to be around 33%. There is no special difference between a franchise and a corporate store as far as labor is concerned.
The reason labor for corporate stores is lower is because franchises pay money which requires no labor on corporates end. (maybe one accountant to cash the checks)
The labor for a MCD corporate store is still at 33%, even if the labor for McD as a whole is 17%
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 31, 2013, 06:11 AM - Edit history (1)
I don't know where you get your figures from, but Janney Capital Markets puts labor costs for US franchises at 24 percent of sales.
And for company owned stores, the 17 percent-of-revenue labor figure was obtained by dividing payroll and benefits at company-operated restaurants by total revenues. Critics of the study, like the Columbia Journalism Review, argued that the labor figure for company-operated stores failed to include the executive comp and the pay of folks in Chicago who run marketing. I don't think it is that big an error since those folks' salaries would not be doubled if the lowest paid workers actually got a raise to $15/hour. But even if you did include these high paid execs, that would raise the labor costs to 25% of revenues, which is on par with the franchises' labor costs. Using that 25% figure, the Big Mac would have to go up a full dollar, rather than 68 cents, to cover everyone (including execs) having their salary doubled at a company-operated store.
The Columbia Journalism Review crunched the numbers:
http://m.cjr.org/303546/show/3dc3f689385c40a23d3a7baeefc7e03a/?
spin
(17,493 posts)you will find in past times in our nation's workers organized and formed unions and forced companies to pay higher wages, improve the work environment and to stop treating lower paid workers as slaves. The result was a strong and vibrant middle class and everybody benefited.
Unfortunately over time the unions overreached. Some of this was due to corruption but also the fact that in order to justify their existence unions, had to ask for higher wages and more benefits during every contract negotiation.
The result was that competition from other companies who were not unionized but still offered a good hourly pay and fair benefits were able to produce a product at a lower price. Ronald Reagan became President and supported large corporations in their efforts to eliminate unions. Many companies decided to leave pro-union states and move to states with laws that allowed them to set up their production lines without hiring unionized employees. Later many companies decided to outsource their operations to foreign nations where once again they could treat their workers as slaves to be exploited.
Now the pendulum of history has swung to favor the companies again and now the workers are underpaid, oppressed and mistreated. Workers' wages have not increased significantly in recent years but the profit of large corporations have skyrocketed and their management has benefited from high salaries.
So I predict the pendulum has reached its peak and will now swing in the other direction. Workers will rebel and try to form unions. A long fight will ensue and hopefully will not involve the violence of the early movement to establish unionization. In perhaps ten to twenty years workers will be paid a much fairer wage and have better benefits. The upper management of many companies may have to take a pay cut but since there may be a stronger middle class with the expendable income to buy more this may not happen.
Greed drives many people and that can apply to both the company owners,their management and the workers. Excessive greed is a character fault while wishing to do well in life is not. I refuse to hate all rich people as many are generous and try to help others. I simply wish they would realize that much of their money comes from the effort of those who work for them and try to treat their employees fairly. If they become tyrants, why should they be surprised when their workers rebel?
But my opinion has some faults. As long as we continue to allow major companies to outsource production to foreign nations without some punishment, little will change. If they chose to do so they should be forced to pay a significantly higher tax rate. Over the years outsourcing has hurt our nation significantly. I remember the days when a person with just a high school education could find a well paying job on a production line where he could make enough money to support his family without his wife working. Those days may never return as we do live a global economy and sometimes reality sucks. Still American workers are known for being extremely productive and for making superior products.
Another factor is that our nation is largely run by the rich. The cost of running for election in our nation is so high that most in the middle class find it extremely difficult to obtain office at a national level unless they take significant contributions from the very wealthy. Instead of concentrating on passing good legislation they are forced to spend much of their available time soliciting contributions. In the end they realize that unless they favor policies the rich back they may see their careers end.
Over time even the poorer members of Congress who do manage to get elected end up rich. Two great careers to follow in our nation are politics and televangelism. Both involve charisma and all too often both require deceit and dishonesty. Both lead to wealth. Both require time to acquire this wealth.
Our Presidents have term limits and perhaps members of Congress should also. I would set the limit at four terms for a Senator and twelve terms for a member of the House. To me this seems fair. Holding office at the national level should be limited to less than 25 years and not be a lifelong career. Limiting office to less than 10 years would be foolish as good Senators and members of the House of Representatives would lose their jobs far too early. I would also increase a President's term limit to three. A good President would be able to do a lot to benefit our nation if he wasn't going to be forced to leave office after his second term.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... corporations that won't pay a living wage or provide healthcare, leaving it to the rest of us to keep their captive wage slaves in a state of basic human dignity.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)AllyCat
(16,194 posts)This is a great work that is expanding. People need to wake up. I've had a guy who worked in management in a regional burger/custard chain tell me that this is unwise because it will hurt the "mom and pop" places. Since when do the chains care about their competition?
Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)My 2006 UAW union contract for an autoworker:
$20/hr starting wage
raise every 6 months with top pay at $28/hr
Cost of living adjustment (IOWs, wage pegged to inflation)
health insurance paid 100%
small pension
401k 25% matching by company
dental
vision
Also, you can't be summarily fired. You have to accumulate a certain number of points within a 1 year period to get fired. And if management does write you up, you have your union rep to represent you. A manager can get fired if there are too many union grievances written against a manager.
Many parents have set up a stable family environment & sent their kids to college working as an autoworker. Many autoworkers have went to restaurants and tipped the waitress a decent tip because they could afford to. People with economic stability with a little bit of left over discretionary income will spend it which benefits YOU.
Workers asking for $15/hour is more than reasonable.
Response to xchrom (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)By the way, Adam Smith, that radical commie, made an argument for living wages in the Wealth of Nations...the basis and bible for modern capitalism. So did John Maynard Keynes.
Your argument is pure Ronald Wilson Reagan
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Peoe would rather pretend that the price of products won't adjust to refect the new labor costs. And no, my employer wil not reopenreopens union contract to raise my pay so I can maintain the same standard of living.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)I'm not sure what the troll said who you replied to since the post was deleted, but no one here assumes the price of a burger will remain the same if fast food workers make $15/hour. So, a Big Mac would go up something like 68 cents. Isn't that worth it?
And when your union contract is up for renegotiation, it will give your union reps a stronger hand in the negotiations when there is already a living wage floor set. Just because you won't see a raise right away (if you are already getting paid more than $15/hour) is no reason to deny fast food workers a decent wage.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)paid their employees a living wage. Why can't they take in less of a profit?
xoom
(322 posts)Response to xchrom (Original post)
Post removed
xchrom
(108,903 posts)Response to xchrom (Reply #290)
Name removed Message auto-removed
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Jesus H. Christ, you are SO full of neo-liberal bullshit I can smell it over the computer.
Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #297)
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Mother Muckraker
(116 posts)"Country is in massive debt"? You're confusing corporate with government. U.S. corporate cash holdings now amount to 2.5-2 Trillion... CASH. That's money that was not paid to workers. Workers making $15/hr (like in Australia) is more than reasonable. One should be able to pay rent and have health insurance just from working hard. Entitled?.. Damn right. People are entitled to a living wage from their hard work. And the good thing is the extra earnings gets pumped back into the economy and everybody benefits.
You would think that those who support a "free market" would understand how increases in blue collar income would benefit society. But it seems these "free market" types are actually promoting some sort of "selective free market" where only the privileged benefit. I think it's called "crony capitalism".
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)and gave huge tax breaks to the rich. Try taking off the Fox goggles.
The best way to improve the economy and thus lower the debt is to set a higher minimum wage. But Republicans hate to hear that. They hate workers. They hate poor people. In fact, they just hate. Period. They think fast food workers are stupid, lazy, spoiled brats. They think a middle schooler could do their job, and they'd hire a middle schooler if only those pesky child labor laws didn't keep them from doing it.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Fucking ridiculous. Get them the hell off of our board.
Minimum wage has gone down in value and in buying power . . .
. . . we're seriously lagging behind other countries on this issue . . .
. . . real wages have flatlined since 1979 . . . .
. . . while CEOs made out like bandits and continue to raze this country to death . . .
. . . and the "differing point of view" we're now supposed to accept and embrace is fetid rhetoric from a bad Stephen Moore book? We're now the site that promotes "bootstrapper" bullshit?
How about this . . . please stop worrying about what a fast-food worker should or shouldn't be making and maybe . . . just MAYBE . . . . . ask YOURSELF why you aren't making more also. ALL of us should be getting paid better. It's disgusting that degreed professionals only make 12 to 14 dollars an hour.
But maybe the fast food workers just might DESERVE that 12 to 14 an hour, because they seem to be the only ones standing up and saying anything about their ridiculously low pay. It's not like any of our comfy asses are million-person-marching to DC or conducting sit-ins in corporate boardrooms like we SHOULD be doing.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts) xchrom
(108,903 posts)
neverforget
(9,436 posts)This thread has brought out the anti-worker crowd on DU.
Hekate
(90,724 posts)SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)
Minimum Wage Would Be $21.72 If It Kept Pace With Increases In Productivity
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
flvegan
(64,409 posts)Yes, FAIL. Raise the wages and ignore the idiots, please.
Hekate
(90,724 posts)If all these folks are Democrats I'll eat my hat.
