Freedom From Religion : A Fearless Young Woman Takes a Stand

[stockholmer]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/24/freedom-from-religion/

If a person is going to act fearlessly, then it’s best done when young. At least that’s how it worked out for me. Jessica Ahlquist is such a fearless person. Jessica took on the established and entrenched points of view of a large suburban community in Cranston, Rhode Island, and won. She had the help of the American Civil Liberties Union, family, and supporters throughout the country, but her battle was an individual one that resonates very clearly in this election year when some in power wish to destroy the First Amendment’s guarantee of separation between church and state.

The New York Times (“A Brave Stand in Rhode Island,” January 31, 2012) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/opinion/a-brave-stand-in-rhode-island.html championed Jessica’s cause in an editorial and covered her case in a news article (“Student Faces Town’s Wrath in Protest Against Prayer,” The New York Times, January 26, 2012) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/us/rhode-island-city-enraged-over-school-prayer-lawsuit.html . Jessica is a self-proclaimed atheist. She took her high school to task for its display of a student’s prayer that has hung on the wall of Cranston High School West’s auditorium since 1963. I taught briefly at Cranston West during the late 1970s, but I can’t remember the prayer in the school auditorium.

Jessica came to atheism after her mother fell ill when Jessica was in elementary school. And that was what she identifies as being the break she had with religion. Jessica’s case is all the more interesting because Rhode Island is the most Catholic state in the nation. She was labelled “an evil little thing,” by a Rhode Island state representative as her case moved to federal district court in Providence. Several florists in the area refused to send flowers that had been sent to Jessica from supporters around the nation. Local police had to provide escorts for her as the case heated the raw emotions that religious issues often tend to do. A 2009 graduate of the same school called Jessica “an idiot” in The Times news article.

In a wise decision, the Cranston School Committee voted not to appeal the federal district court ruling that supported Jessica’s attempt to have the prayer removed from her school. However, a stunned ACLU-Rhode Island representative, Steven Brown, commented on the apparent delay in removing the prayer banner from the school’s auditorium in response to the mayor of the city’s position that legal fees accrued in the case must be settled before the banner is removed. Brown questioned: “…whether this is an attempt by some petty officials to dredge up a new excuse to avoid complying with the Court’s decision” (“ACLU wants prayer banner removed ASAP,” WPRI.com, February 22, 2012). http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_news/west_bay/cranston-aclu-wants-prayer-banner-removedasap

snip




Jessica Ahlquist, a Rhode Island atheist, won a suit against her school's prayer poster

[Speck Tater]

1. As an atheist myself, I would have ignored the poster and...

chalked it up to "Live and Let Live."

I've got better things to do with my time than engage in pointless battles that help foster the image of atheists as intolerant enemies of popular societal norms.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Um, it's a public school. She's right.

I'm not going to let the Establishment Clause be shat all over, or let my kids be forcibly indoctrinated when they go to school, just because of "popular societal norms".

But way to slam someone who bravely faced death threats to stand up for the constitution. Nice.

[Kurmudgeon]

11. The establishment clause...AND the Free Exercise clause are equal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause
"The Establishment Clause is the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating,
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ”

Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof&quot , these two clauses make up what are called the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.[1]"

You may notice, this young woman is not Congress.
I'm sorry she's gotten death threats, but that hardly makes her unique in this country when anyone speaks up, rightfully or not.

However, she got to force her opinion that a banner created by other students should be removed so she wouldn't be offended.
The state representative who insulted her is an idiot.
However, she didn't take on government, she took on the rights of the students who hung that plaque there long before she was born as well as the rights of anyone who felt it should still hang there.
By forced removal of the plaque, she broke the Free Exercise clause.
Special rights for special viewpoints, hardly American, is it.....

[jeff47]

12. Wow do you have that backwards

So....when do I get to conduct satanic rituals in your kid's school? You aren't going to block my free exercise of religion, are you?

You may notice, this young woman is not Congress.

Yeah, see she was the one being discriminated against by the prayer. You've got the issue backwards.

Special rights for special viewpoints

So...you're asking for the right for Christians to force their religion on atheists, and then claim that this girl is asking for special rights?

[Kurmudgeon]

16. Hmm, a dead horse argument, and you think a prayer on a wall is discrimination.

And I guess if you see a sign or someone has an belief or opinion you don't like, then it's forced upon you.
This country of intolerance may turn one day, and use all these special little rules and laws against you.
Then you'll be in the same boat as the people of faith, but by then, it'll be too late.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. These "special little rules and laws' are called THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

If not living in a Theocracy bugs you so much, move somewhere else.

[jeff47]

34. It's discrimination when the Christian prayer is the only one on the wall

And when that wall is in a government institution, such as a school. If you want that Christian prayer painted on the wall, then everyone gets to paint their own saying on the wall. Or nobody gets to paint their saying on that wall.

This country of intolerance may turn one day, and use all these special little rules and laws against you. Then you'll be in the same boat as the people of faith, but by then, it'll be too late.

I'm an athiest. I'm already on the receiving end of all sorts of official and unofficial discrimination because I don't worship invisible sky-beings. For example, take about 5 seconds to think about the average US courtroom. There's tons of Christianity stuffed in there, even down to requiring me to swear on a bible. Yet I'm expected to comply with that. So your threat is pretty damn empty.

And despite your overly-delicate feelings, Christianity isn't having "special little rules" used against it. What's happening is the "special little rules" that allowed Christians to ignore the Constitution are being challenged.

[PassingFair]

41. That sign was state sponsorship of religion. Pure and simple.

It had no place in a public school.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Bullshit. The SCOTUS has repeatedly affirmed that endorsements of faith BY public schools are a

violation of the establishment clause.

Keep it in fucking Church, not my kids' public schools. You lose. Thanks.

[Kurmudgeon]

17. Nice cursing, Warren, If one is forced to "Keep it" in church, then that is NOT "free exercise".

I have lost nothing, enjoy your imaginary victory.
Things go in cycles, you may want to control your hostility, because what comes around, goes around.
Oh and it's not only YOUR "kid's public schools".

[2ndAmForComputers]

18. So, are the courts wrong when they order prayer banners removed etc?

(By the way, maybe it's you who should control your hostility.)

[Kurmudgeon]

26. Are you saying the courts are never wrong?

Let me know when I'm hostile enough to curse.
However, disagreeing with you shouldn't be considered hostile.

[2ndAmForComputers]

31. No, I'm asking a question. Are you going to answer it?

I'll repeat it and clarify for your benefit:

So, are the courts wrong when they order prayer banners or other endorsements of religion removed from public schools?

[Warren DeMontague]

21. ...What comes around? I won't be able to put up a poster that says "God is pretend" in your church?

Oh, wait, I can't.

Because that's where you are free to mandate all sorts of religious expressions. You can NOT mandate it or otherwise endorse it in a public school.

Having a big banner about "Our Heavenly Father" in a public school is a CLEAR endorsement of faith, and NOT permissible under the 1st Amendment.

And you can sit around and fantasize about things "coming around" all you want, (while you're not posting threads calling the pro-choice majority in this country "pro-deathers", that is) but the Constitution of the United States Of America is CLEAR on this issue and there are 50 years of solid Supreme Court Precedence backing it up.

If YOUR Kids need to hear prayers and see Crucifixes and Banners about "Our Heavenly Father", they have plenty of places they can.. just not a public school.

How about a banner that said "Bong Hits For Jesus", would you be okay with that hanging up in a public school auditorium?

I do apologize about the fucking cursing, though.

[Kurmudgeon]

27. Oh, the straw man attack, I've seen this one before.

Come up with an imaginary scenario, then attack that.
Did you even read the article? It was a brass plaque that had hung on the wall since 1963.
Not a "big banner". Looks like you do your share of fantasizing yourself.
Do your kids need to have their eyes and ears protected from every thought that YOU don't like?
Apparently so, but you don't care about the rights of other students at all. Unless they agree with you, of course.
What are you going to do if they disappoint you, shoot their laptop? Oh wait, that's already been done.
As for the cursing, son, I'm an ex-coal miner. I've heard things that would curl your tender little ears said daily.
However, I guess you can't control yourself enough to speak plainly in public discourse.
So keep your insincere apology, it's meaningless.

[jeff47]

36. If you've seen it before, you should be able to come up with a much better response than that. (nt)

[Warren DeMontague]

39. You're absolutely right one one thing- That wasn't a real apology.

I don't owe you an apology for saying "fucking", or for anything fucking else. YOU probably owe, hell, someone an apology for your apparently limited understanding of the United States Constitution and the past 50 years of precedent-setting SCOTUS decisions which have decidedly and decisively stated that schools MAY NOT endorse religious faith or belief without running afoul of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment.

There's no straw man, no imaginary scenario.


"son"... that's fucking Rich.

I won't leave you, drifting down, but whoah, it makes me wild..

[fascisthunter]

55. Problem with "belief" is it's used to deny Reality

much too often... everything in moderation.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. Hey.. do you like counting?

Get started.

[Kurmudgeon]

28. It's a protest on a different subject, try reading the signs next time.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. I was there, Jacko.

1.2 Million People Representing the PRO CHOICE MAJORITY in this country.

Or as you like to call us, the "pro-deathers".

[obamanut2012]

47. Do they really use that term?

On HERE?

[Warren DeMontague]

64. Transparency Page.

It's a wonderful informational resource.

[Tsiyu]

52. Fuck. Did you cuss out an ass who calls pro-choicers

"pro-deathers?" I don't fucking believe it. What the fuck is wrong with you?




You were too damn nice.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. Short answer?

Yes.

[crunch60]

24. Public schools should

be free of prayers of anyone's religion. It's public, meaning serving many people of diverse religious ideology, and that would include atheists, who don't believe in God.or prayer. In my catholic school, we had prayer, mass, religion classes, etc, It was accepted and expected because we were all of the same faith.

Public schools must remain neutral.

[Kurmudgeon]

30. That is a false assumption.

If a person wants to pray, they should be allowed to do so, just don't force others to join them.
However, destroying every mention of prayer is just thought control, pure and simple.
I never said that public schools should have mass, prayer, etc, etc.
However, you can go too far and wipe out the rights of religious people by silencing them and editing them completely out of existence.
That's not neutral, that's going too far in the other direction.
I'll say again, the Establishment clause has been overused to take rights under the Free Exercise clause.
When you get to the point of removing every mention of religion in a public building for fear of offending someone, we've went too far.

[Marrah_G]

33. I notice that you are of the same faith in the mural

I wonder if yours and other christian's feelings would be different if that mural was a picture of Pan or Cernunnos with a Pentagram on it and the words "An it harm none, do what ye will".

My guess is that for arguments sake people would say " oh no, that wouldn't bother me at all" and feel safe saying so because they kjnow it would never, could never happen in this present day reality.

[Kurmudgeon]

76. Really? Surprising since I consider myself non-denominational Christian.

I've seen Pan depicted many times, meant nothing to me.
The other name I've never seen before, though I have heard the quote.
My guess is you are guessing.
There is no right that begins with "Freedom From" because nothing of that sort can be enforced without trampling on someone else's rights.

[crunch60]

74. So would it be ok for an

Atheists to post a sign in a public school that said, " There is no God" or "Religion is a fairy tale"
You would probably be offended by that, see what I mean.
If you want to pray in public school, do it privately, After all, it means the same in the eyes of the Lord.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

29. People who comment about "cursing" on DU

kind of creep me out.

I often make public stands .....when needed. Around 2004 I had some fellow call and threaten to kill me. After he rattled on about how he was going to do it I said, "Bring it on motherfucker" and he gasped. lol. See the whole time this turd was telling me he was going to kill me he never swore, but when I swore it shocked him. I suppose calling someone and telling them you are going to kill them is okay, but swearing is not. lol

Keep your creepy religious shit out of public or one day you will get someone else's creepy shit shoved down your throat. I'm sick and tired of the religious right....you give them an inch and they take a mile. They are even going after our rights to control our own bodies.

[Kurmudgeon]

32. I have no intention of killing anyone or making threats, so don't worry.

However, look who is talking about shoving things down my throat, why, that would be you.
I'm not on the right, don't assume that and when you assign religion to the right, you cede them representation they shouldn't have.
Don't do their job for them by attacking those of faith on your own side.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Take a look at the transparency page of the person you're responding to

speaking of "going after our rights to control our own bodies".

[Nye Bevan]

43. When debating someone I never feel the need to assert that they have sex with their mother.

But that's just me.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. Intellectually Lazy Retort

Way too convenient and quite sophomoric.

There is no freedom unless it can be done absolutely even when in violation of the law, offensive to other people's sensibilities, or discriminatory? Really?

And you're the one talking about a "dead horse" argument?

That is really weak.

[LiberalFighter]

59. One is not forced in keeping it in church.

One is not prohibited from praying in schools either. They just can't have a time and place to do it. Students can pray on their own as long as it does not interfere in the school functions.

One is not prohibited in praying in public. Just don't make a big deal about it. And don't force others to pray with you. And it is being forced when it is a public gathering of any type that is not religious and made part of the event.

Secular organizations should not feel compelled to have prayers at the start of their gathering. Too many do. And for what purpose? So they are considered as good or better than other organizations?


And you are right. It is not just one person's public school. It is open to everyone regardless of their faith or non-faith. And they should be all treated equally. Forcing others to see a religious element in a public school that is not intended as part of a legitimate class does not provide a school to all students attending. The school that includes a specific religion in their setting does harm to the other students and fails in treating all students the same in a public school setting.

[stockholmer]

8. I am proud to be 'ignored' by you, as you clearly (if your 'societal norms' analogy is accepted)

would have been a collaborator and/or ignorer of (for instance) numerous genocidal practices conducted in the past by the ruling powers.

[Justice wanted]

9. I do the same as well with a lot of things. BUT in this case the girl is right. A public school

should be a place she should be able to go without having beliefs shoved down her throat.

[jeff47]

13. Yeah, and what's up with those upity gay people wanting to get married!

They should just live and let live.

And those blacks should have just forgotten about all that discrimination. They shouldn't have bothered with all that lunch counter and bus nonsense. The back of the bus still got them where they were going!

Heck, why were those wealthy land-owners making such a fuss about "freedom" in 1776? They had it pretty damn good for their day. Clearly they should have just agreed to disagree with King George and let bygones be bygones.




You may not notice, but a whole lot people are busting their asses to protect your rights. Even when you foolishly think your rights aren't under attack. You're welcome.

[Speck Tater]

19. Wow do you have that backwards!

Live and let live means that if gay people want to get married then I say fine. Live and let live.
Live and let live means that if somebody wants to eat in my diner or sit on my bus then I say, fine. Live and let live.
Live and let live means not discriminating against somebody because of skin color, gender, sexual orientation, or religion. It means you have all the same rights as everyone else because your neighbors are willing to live and let live.

It's the Fred Phelp's of the world with their ugly picketing that violate Live and Let Live.
It's the Religious extremists who want to blow up buildings or outlaw birth control and abortions, or stone "heretics" who are violating Live and Let Live.

If I don't like somebody's religious radio program I can turn off the radio. If I don't like somebody's religion sign or banner I can just walk past it and ignore it. Live and let live.

Polarization will never bring us widespread peace and prosperity. Only live and let live will accomplish that.

[jeff47]

35. So how, exactly would she turn her school to a different radio station?

Oh wait...it's a public school and she goes there simply because that's where she lives. There isn't another fucking radio station to turn to.

You are pretending that there are choices when there are not.

Live and let live will never function as long as the religious refuse to do so. And if you think they'll agree to "live and let live", you haven't been paying attention.

[Speck Tater]

51. Imagine this

I'm sure there are hungry people where she lives; people who could use some help, elderly people who need somebody to shop for them once in a while. I'm sure there are many productive things she could have done with that time. Things that would have helped her community and shown atheists and atheism in a good light.

"Wow, look at that! An atheist is helping our community and making people's lives better."

But no. Instead she chooses to make enemies, tear down something the community as a whole decided upon, and to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth concerning atheists and atheism.

Believe or disbelieve as you like, but that doesn't mean you have to be an antagonistic jerk about it. If you ask me, which obviously you didn't, she set back the cause atheism and made it that much harder for atheists to be accepted and respected in her community.

What's her next move? Fight to have Amish buggies removed from our public streets? How dare those Amish people offend me with their blatantly religious vehicles on MY public roads. Call the ALCU. We still have more people to piss of. (And piss on.)

And, for the record, yes, I AM an atheist. I just don't believe in the atheist Taliban. It does far more harm than good for the cause of atheism.

I think what she did was childish grandstanding and she needs to grow up and be tolerant of other people's beliefs.

[Tsiyu]

53. It was offensive to her, this is her life, not yours or mine.

Last edited Sun Feb 26, 2012, 12:53 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm thinking that things are past the point of "make nice."

Should she go shine the shoes of the guys who will let her die in an emergency room just so her ectopically implanted fetus can live another fifteen minutes? So they'll think she's a "nice athiest?" as they watch her life end?

"God" the Taliban Version 2.012 has taken over too much of the decision-making in this country. It's life and death shit; though maybe unless you're a woman, it's difficult to sense the urgency. As a woman, and a mother of a daughter, and aunt of nieces, I must ignore your naivety.

I hope Jessica's using this experience as training to take on even bigger enemies of liberty.

Had I the funds, I'd pay her way through law school.

[Speck Tater]

60. I say "live and let live" and you accuse me of wanting to let her die?

Can we say over the top? You need to calm down and take a deep breath before you have a stroke!

[Tsiyu]

61. I'm very calm

And extremely correct.

[Speck Tater]

65. We all have that one thing in common...

We are all very sure that we are correct.

It can't be any other way. If we honestly thought we were wrong we'd change our minds so that we would again believe we are right. So whether we change our mind or don't change our mind we obviously all strongly believe that we are correct, either before or after, which is to say, now (for the most part).

The other thing we all have in common is that we think anyone who disagrees with us must be chronically stupid, willfully ignorant, or evil, or possibly two out of three, or maybe even all three!

Isn't it nice when we can find common ground.

But the real telling issue is this: On which end do you open a soft boiled egg, the pointed little end or the rounded big end? For the differences between Big-Endians and Little-Endians hath given rise to "six rebellions... wherein one Emperor lost his life, and another his crown". --Jonathan Swift

[Tsiyu]

66. No time for the cute here

Women's lives are at risk from the Talibornagains, the "goodkrischens" who think their faith is the only one.

I am correct about that, and you know it, unless you are blind or a misogynist yourself.

Play games if you must, while the grownups talk it out....your call.

[Speck Tater]

67. This is no game, sir.

As passionately as you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong, every one of those people who disagree with you in one way or another also believe, just a passionately, that they are right and you are wrong. You need to understand this and not take such a Chicken Little approach to your beliefs. You can't run around screaming "My God! People will DIE if you don't agree with me!!!!" and expect to be taken seriously.

When a person says "I believe some respect and tolerance of my neighbor's beliefs is prudent" The adult response is not to hysterically shout "You liberals are trying to destroy America!". Nor is it necessarily to throw around derogatory names for those who disagree with you, like "gookrischens". The fact is you can make a lot of progress with "goodkrischens" if you begin your discussions with them by treating them with respect and listening to them. If you are reasonable, they will often listen to what you have to say. And I have seen quite a number of them change their minds about one point or another when your opening move is not a hostile frontal attack.

So instead of starting out by calling anyone who disagrees with that faith that YOU think is the only one by calling them "blind or misogynist", you should exchange ideas in an adult manner and perhaps you can persuade instead of inflame.

My original point was that a thoughtful, considerate atheist has a chance to persuade people of their point of view, but an atheist who sets out to alienate and inflame will accomplish nothing. That was my point. My only point.

Now, please answer me, if you can, how my belief that persuasion works better than hostile confrontation lead to you call me a blind misogynist who doesn't care that (MY GOD!!!!) people will DIE!!!? I don't see how the two are connected at all.

I mean, seriously, does this make sense?

Me: "Persuasion is more effective than hostile confrontation."
You: "Women's lives are at risk you blind misogynist!"

[Tsiyu]

68. My, my

You've progressed from quaint, trite homilies to frothing, rabid sermons in no time.

Not that I'd time you or anything.

[Speck Tater]

73. WTF??? Ok. I've wasted enough time with you on this. Bye now. nt

[chemp]

2. I am very Proud of Jessica

Thanks for posting this.

I have know her since she was a zygote. Her dad is a very good friend, I stood up for him at his wedding.
Jess is a very brave and intelligent young woman, who had to stand up to to a world of crazy.

Visit the crazy. Her uncle videotaped the entire school committee meeting:

&list=UU2Ko9XniKcciNwbV44XMtTQ&index=25&feature=plcp

[BlancheSplanchnik]

4. bookmarking for later

Thanks for this!! Document the crazy---thank goodness for vid and the internet!!!!! Best defense against propaganda.

[stockholmer]

10. thank you so much for posting this

[chaplainM]

15. My favorite line: "They're using the Constitution to turn this into a secular country."

Pretty easy task, since the government created by the Constitution was thoroughly secular.

[jwirr]

3. As a Christian I solute her. She is right. My faith is a personal matter and I never try to foist it

off on others. When I was in school back in the 40-50s religion was in the churches and the public schools were teaching other secular subjects. It worked very well that way. Only once was this not true - the day Joseph McCarthy died my 3rd grade teacher made the class pray for his dead soul. Since my religion does not baptize or pray for the dead this incident convinced me that no religion belonged in the public school system.

Only a bunch of fools would think that religion should be in a public setting where not only are most Christian religions different from each other but they are just one of the many religions of the world and there are also many people (such as atheists) who do not want to belong to any religion. Freedom of religion includes the right not to belong to a religion.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

5. She's fighting not JUST for atheists.

She's standing for protections for ALL of us non-christians.....as well as for christians who are NOT members of the fascist-hate-nationalistic-prosperity sect.

I would really like to see other groups stand up together for this

[JohnnyRingo]

6. Call the Westboro Church

The "God Hates Fags" church is always looking for public venues that will allow them to post their hateful screeds. They believe churches (especially them) should be permitted to display religious messages to the public on all government property, but the law doesn't allow them.

Several years ago the town of Casper Wyoming decided to set up a display of the ten commandments in that city's public park. When the Westboro Church heard about this, they immediately applied for their own religious marker that declared the city was "where Matthew Shepard was born and learned to be a queer". It would continue that "he now burns in Hell with the rest of the fags and the people of Casper who condoned it".

The city of Casper was faced with the legal dilemna of discriminating between religions or removing their marker to avoid a certain court battle they would likely lose. I'm sure the church would love to post their own prayer right next to the school's plaque at their own expense.

I wrote the above account from memory and may have made slight errors in name spelling and quotes. (Matthew Shepard was the unfortunate victim of gay hate crime who was dragged behind a truck.)

[2ndAmForComputers]

20. This young woman, quite simply, rocks.

And she's taking the hate and threats with nerves of steel, too.

[neverforget]

25. She's awesome! Good job for sticking up for your beliefs.

[DFW]

37. "Sticking up for your beliefs:" the sliding Republican rating scale

Republicans have different reactions if you tell them that you stick up for your beliefs:

Christian: you are a good American!

Muslim: you are a terrrrrist!

Jewish: welllll, if you support Israel's military, don't live in my neighborhood and shut up about the rest, I guess.....

Hindu, Animist, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Wiccan, Rasta, etc. etc.: if ya gotta, but not here!!

Atheist: you traitor and ally of Satan!!

Sing this to the tune of "The Locomotion:"

("The Evolution&quot

Now that you believe it, come join the cult now,
(Come on, baby, don’t teach evolution)
Tell your children’s teacher there’s a new result, now
(Come on, baby, don’t teach evolution)
What Darwin found is causing me a lot of grief
Religion’s free as long as it is MY belief!
So come on, come on, don’t teach evolution to me!
You gotta bite your tongue, now. Come on baby.
Turn back your clocks. Fossils are just some odd-shaped rocks!

I believe I have been called to lead the nation
(Come on, baby, don’t teach evolution)
I think I read it in the Book of Revelation
(Come on, baby, don’t teach evolution)
It may look like Mitt or Santorum has the lead
But my religion’s pure, and that is what you need!
So come on, come on, don’t teach evolution to me!
Yes, come on, come on, don't teach evolution to me!

[Nye Bevan]

42. This is what offended Ms Ahlquist, after being displayed in the school for 50 years:

Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen

No mention of Jesus. Or Christ. Many religions have a "heavenly father" figure, and many religions use "Amen". So clearly not a "Christian Prayer".

Just because she was able to persuade a judge to order this 50-year old banner to be torn down does not necessarily mean that it was the right thing for her to do. It's not like the students were being forced to recite the Lord's Prayer every day. They were free to totally ignore the banner if they wanted to.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. A court decided it was an endorsement of religion. That should "offend" anyone with a respect for

the 1st Amendment.


This idea that we Atheists are delicate creatures who turn to blubbery jello when confronted with anything pertaining to "God"; it's bullshit. By some estimations there are about 400,000 Chrisitan Churches in the USA. Pretty much any town, you'll find a church. There are crosses and plaques and Gideon bibles in the hotel rooms and big giant touchdown Jesii and ALL SORTS OF BIG REVERENTIAL REFERENCES TO DEITIES, everywhere you look.

And that's fine. Believe it or not, we don't -at least, I've never met an Atheist who does- expect nor do we even desire to somehow scrub all religious expression from reality.

But INSIDE A PUBLIC SCHOOL is not the place for heavenly father banners, prayers over the loudspeaker, reverential displays of the 10 commandments, or any of it.

All your arguments about how ecumenical and harmless this thing was are the exact same ones people have used to defend mandated school prayer, too. "Oh, how is little Johnny hurt by having to say thanks to Jesus every morning?" -sniff!-



Are you saying, then, if they WERE being forced to recite the Lord's Prayer every morning (again, with its friendly, all-inclusive "heavenly father" language) you would understand the Establishment Clause issues at stake?

[Nye Bevan]

46. If Congress ever makes a law respecting the establishment of religion,

I will be first in line to complain.

[Humanist_Activist]

49. Not every day you see a pre-1860s mindset...

You do realize that the first amendment also applies to the states and local governments I hope.

[Marrah_G]

69. "Heavenly father" and "Amen" make it pretty clearly Christian

To try and say it is secular is really a stretch.

[Nye Bevan]

71. Ever been to a synagogue? (nt)

[Marrah_G]

72. Nope, but have spent alot of time in Cranston!

[JNathanK]

44. I have a problem with these cases, because it just gives fuel to the right.

When they try to get public Christmas displays and banners like this removed, it just gives right wingers more Ammo to ramble on about how public schools are evil and Godless and how we should scrap the department of education, etc etc.

The mean things they said about her weren't right, but I think these are unnecessary battles. Personally, I think if they're gonna have Christian stuff, they should have stuff from other religions too. If they allowed a certain level of religious expression in school and allowed an equal forum for all students, it would still fit in with the provisions of the establishment clause.

The public school system, tied to congressional decisions, wouldn't be doing anything to respect an establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof if everyone was allowed an equal voice in the school, whether ir be Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, etc etc. I think it would be good, because it would facilitate an environment in which differences are openly acknowledged and explored for students.

I think some people get off on persecution complexes too. This is probably going to make her very unpopular at the school, and she'll probably just wine, "Oh poor little ol' me. boohoo". People who get very assertive about their beliefs and wear it as their identity 24/7 can be really overbearing in this way. I've seen it in Christians, as well as atheists. No ideology is immune to this behavior. Of course, Free Thought Radio will probably explain how they're getting persecuted for their views and what a shame it is. I've listened to that show before, and it can really turn into a self righteous pitty party in a heart beat. Then, on Christian radio, they'll talk about how they're being persecuted by the secularist, liberal agenda. It gets to be exceedingly pathetic.

[Nye Bevan]

48. Imagine an atheist taking offence to Christmas Day being a national holiday,

and fighting in court to have Christmas be a regular working day. While this might be a winnable battle it would obviously not be a good idea, due to the public opprobrium that would result. I see Ms Ahlquist's case as similar in this regard.

[Tsiyu]

54. "Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win." lol

Funny.

If that plaque had been doing its job of inspiring positive behavior, Ms. Ahlquist would not have received death threats.

The student body doesn't appear to have read the actual plaque in question.

No great loss to humanity, then.

Not the tragedy you portray, anyway.

[fascisthunter]

56. But Zee Reich Wing Must Have Zeer Way

Zay ah speshuuuuullll.

[Nye Bevan]

57. For the rest of her life, anyone who Googles her name, like potential employers,

will see that she's the one who threw a hissyfit about a 50-year old plaque on the wall of her school. My guess would be that on balance, this will not work in her favor.

[Tsiyu]

58. My guess is, she will go on to do great and noble things

for ALL of the people of this country, not merely a select few.

Your "hissy fit" comment fails to answer the question of why the plaque has inspired death threats rather than all of the positive traits it ostensibly transmits.

I suppose for people like you, death threats are far less serious than 'hissyfits.' Duly noted.

[Marrah_G]

70. I want schools to be Godless

Theocracy has always been detrimental to society.

[JNathanK]

75. I just want schools to not be biased toward any religion or lack of religion.

School policy should be fairly neutral about religion. I think every student should be allowed to establish clubs for all religious outlooks. If a majority of the school wants to participate in a prayer, it should be allowed, but students who don't want to be apart of it should be able to opt out.

As far as how students or citizens react to other world views, it really comes down to personal character and social intelligence.

[Marrah_G]

77. Those who "opt out" are then outsiders

and then you will have those who participate only because they don't want to stand out.

[JNathanK]

78. I used to opt out from the pledge of allegiance and the school prayers

Nobody really ever really took it personally, and if they did, I would have just told them to fuck off. I'd rather people be more allowed to do what they wanna do than to be forced into some fake policy meant to keep everyone equal. I feel thee exact same way about school uniforms. In this kind of setting, its up to people to have the social intelligence to be courteous toward other outlooks and opinions.