Report: Mormons Posthumously Baptize Anne Frank (this past Saturday)

[Tx4obama]

Mormon Baptism Targets Anne Frank -- Again

Anne Frank, the Jewish girl whose diary and death in a Nazi concentration camp made her a symbol of the Holocaust, was allegedly baptized posthumously Saturday by a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, according to whistleblower Helen Radkey, a former member of the church.

The ritual was conducted in a Mormon temple in the Dominican Republic, according to Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher who investigates such incidents, which violate a 2010 pact between the Mormon Church and Jewish leaders.

Radkey said she discovered that Annelies Marie "Anne" Frank, who died at Bergen Belsen death camp in 1945 at age 15, was baptized by proxy on Saturday. Mormons have submitted versions of her name at least a dozen times for proxy rites and carried out the ritual at least nine times from 1989 to 1999, according to Radkey. But Radkey says this is the first time in more than a decade that Frank's name has been discovered in a database that can be used both for genealogy and also to submit a deceased person's name to be considered for proxy baptism -- a separate process, according to a spokesman for the church. The database is only open to Mormons.

<SNIP>

Full article here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/mormons-posthumous-baptism-anne-frank_n_1292102.html

[Journeyman]

1. Someone should sue the Mormon Church for desecrating the dead. . .

[Initech]

69. I swear, I'm putting a clause in my will...

That states that if the Mormon church baptizes me and my family finds out about it, they will be given full permission to sue the church in my name.

[Duer 157099]

2. Fine. I unbaptize her.

What a waste of resources, doesn't the "church" have better things to do with it's time/money/resources? Like maybe help the living? Sheesh, nevermind.

[DetlefK]

31. Don't forget desecrated water and an ungodly-parent.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

38. That gives me an idea. Fight Fire with Fire. Mass Mormon Un-Baptismals

An internet forum won't do the trick, but any progressive church/organization can.
---If unable or unwilling to do so, a good fake internet site might work, just not as well as an established place of worship people can see and visit.

Get lists of dead mormons. Include founding fathers and first settlers (in Utah). Always include at least one or two famous mormons and be sure to include recently deceased soldiers.
Accidentally include a few living Mormons. Offer to throw them back in the pond if they object.

Publish a press release with the mass unbaptismal (include Salt Lake newspapers). Announce they are free roaming spirits likely to be sucked up into the netherworld and they start another process to convert them into a new religion.

do this monthly.

Publish a list of new converts twice a year. Keep a straight face if you are ever interviewed. Never say this is revenge, but that you are saving souls.

Grab a beer. Sit back. Watch the fun.

[Initech]

71. Bill Maher performed an "unbaptism" on an episode of Real Time a couple weeks ago.

It was quite hilarious.

[sakabatou]

3. These things make me sick

[Behind the Aegis]

4. It says lots about them.

This is disrepectful.

[Bonobo]

6. It's disgusting.

If they believe in their own religion and are unable to recognize and respect that others have different beliefs and practices, it is morally reprehensible to do what they do.

It is over the line and frankly should be illegal because it is a tremendous incitement to violence.

People have killed over less.

[boppers]

12. People also once killed over shellfish and how crops were planted.

The definition of religious maturity, I think, is how willing you are to accept the "sacrilegious behavior" of others without caring. By that measure, a lot of religions are still very much insecure teenagers.

[Bonobo]

15. Yes, that is certainly true that people "Shouldn't care"

However, it doesn't change the fact that it IS an action that is known to be an extremely offensive gesture.

It is raising a red wave in front of a flag.

Especially when you are dealing with a figure like Ann Frank, come on now.

Most everyone have SOMETHING that is holy to them. In fact that is what "holy/unholy", "clean/unclean" is all about.

It is fundamental to all societies and cultures though it takes many forms.

I am certain we could find a hair-trigger issue for you that others would not find a big deal -perhaps some sexual taboo, perhaps some "transgression" directed at your family member like a middle finger or other obscene gesture. These are no different than what we are talking about although YOU would call one a "religious matter" and another "plain good manners" or some other thing.

Still, I bet if you examined yourself more honestly, you would find things that you consider holy/unholy.

[boppers]

18. Well, this is boundary/personal, but I have devoted myself to Omnism.

All religious thought is true, *and* false. All things are holy, *and* unholy. All gods are real, *and* no gods are real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnism

"Still, I bet if you examined yourself more honestly, you would find things that you consider holy/unholy."

Oh, trying to walk with, live, Omnism is HARD. When I encounter matters of faith that I find myself upset by (and I certainly do), I try to learn from them, rather than rely on only one faith/cultural/logical perspective. I don't try to shut others down because they "offend my faith", because I simply haven't signed onto a mindset where others "must" respect my individual (or group) faith.

[Bonobo]

20. And that's great, but...

What if someone made an "obscene" gesture at your wife/husband/daughter/son, something you found offensive.

I could argue that it is just a gesture that cannot harm you.

Same thing for an offensive word.

On examination, I would find something that offends your sense of the "holy" or "sacred" and it would be as arbitrary and unrooted as the one you poke fun at.

[boppers]

22. Interesting test case....

Both the husbandwife and I have dance and theater backgrounds, and both have done some pretty experimental/provocative works. I proposed marriage while s/he was paying for a performance of a naked woman to artistically display their genitalia to me. (Yes, we're kind of "those" people, which is how we wound up in Portland.)

My boundary for "obscene" is waaaaay out there. No fluid transfer, health risks? Cool. Woman or man or (etc.) waving naked genitals in my, or my spouses' face? Cool. Gestures really don't phase me.

Words, though, still do phase me, in specific tones. I don't mind being called a "bitch, fag, dyke, cunt, whore" (etc.) based on just the word, but based on past experience with tonalities, and a word, I can still be alarmed.

Mapping to gestures, I suppose it's the difference between not being upset by a hand forming a fist, and the fist being set in motion towards me in a invasive gesture.

Getting back to the OP topic, Judaism seems to have such a level of cultural PTSD that an obscure religion making them honorary members (or however you want to phrase it) is no longer a gesture, but a threat, because so many historic non-invasive gestures have led to eventual violence.

[Bonobo]

23. You hit the nail on the head, I think.

"Judaism seems to have such a level of cultural PTSD that an obscure religion making them honorary members (or however you want to phrase it) is no longer a gesture, but a threat, because so many historic non-invasive gestures have led to eventual violence."


As a Jew growing up, I can tell you that the trauma that Jews have had visited on them resides in our culture still.

I was raised by a mother who grew up afraid that Nazis would invade America and kill her and her family as they did her aunts and uncles in the old world.

I grew up personally confronted by swastikas and having pennies thrown at me.

Jewish parents transmit this anxiety to their children in large numbers. I am not saying that is good or bad. I am just saying that is the way it is.

And now that you have correctly identified it as PTSD, can't you see how it is not good enough to just say "They shouldn't be so upset." or "They shouldn't let it bother them."

with PTSD, as with this type of cultural trauma, it cannot be made to go away by wishing. Seriously.

[shcrane71]

50. The anxiety, fear, uneasiness caused by PTSD won't go away by wishing. One inhabits an

insensitive world where whole religions are ignorant about how their actions could be construed as hostile. A statement by an anti-defamation Jewish league may help the Mormon church be less inflammatory.

[Skittles]

26. CORRECT

[malaise]

37. I'm not sure that is the word

It is fugging arrogance and beyond stupidity to decide that no matter what someone believed you can baptise them in death and not be laughed to scorn.
What's more it's just stupid mumbo jumbo.

[aquart]

78. It says that no other religion is safe under Mormon rule.

Which is a reasonable consideration in light of this arrogance.

[Hugabear]

5. I just initiated Mitt Romney into the Church of Satan

I've got Santorum scheduled for initiation tomorrow.

[polly7]

7. I know I must be missing the obvious here, but why

are they doing this? Just to get her into their genealogical database?

Creepy in any case.

[customerserviceguy]

34. It's their belief

that a person can "choose" to accept the baptism after they're dead, in some kind of limbo-like state before the next stage of the afterlife. It may be the only religion that doesn't say, "when you're dead, it's over, and if you didn't make the right choices in life, you're fucked in the next life."

Of course, I consider it (and all religion) to be bullshit. However, I really don't see it as any different from a congregation of people of religion A praying for a dead person from religion B, and that goes on every day.

[Blue_Tires]

41. for starters, I think the LDS in some weird way is flexing the political muscle

especially since one of their own is running for president...

Since jewish leaders have specifically asked them not to do it, the mormons have been trying to troll them...

[ashling]

8. My fantasy is more powerful than your fantasy!

Beam me up, Scotty.

[ButterflyBlood]

9. A silly but harmless practice. Everyone should chill the fuck out

The LDS Church has so many vile things about it I don't get why people have to go against them over a practice that doesn't harm anyone and is only fairly quirky.

[2ndAmForComputers]

13. This is incredibly offensive to the families of the deceased.

And no, I won't "chill the fuck out." I have the capacity to point out all the other "vile things" along with this one.

[ButterflyBlood]

49. I wouldn't give a shit if the Mormons did this "to" any of my dead relatives

What's the result? It doesn't change the fact that they weren't Mormons in their life.

[Kellerfeller]

53. Bingo

[dsc]

106. maybe if your relatives had been killed due to their relgion

that might make you give a shit. Let's remember why Ms. Frank died at such a young age along with all but her father.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. so the phrase "respect for the dead" has no meaning to you?

How about respect for the wishes of the surviving family?

This practice is disrespectful. Period.

[JHB]

32. Hey, what's respect when there is soul-beancounting at stake!

It's all about racking up points, err...saving souls, and since that's eternal, transient matters like respect just aren't that important (especially since the respect would be for, y'know, heathens. pfft.)

Do you have any idea how many points the soul of a dead famous and generally lauded nonChristian(tm) is worth in the Heavenly Prize Catalogues? Ok, neither do they, but it's a lot, and they're commanded to rack up points.

Besides, dead nonChristians(tm) don't kick them in the balls when they try this. The live ones are a LOT more hazardous to the ol' heir-looms.

[lunatica]

35. LOL! Duzy

[ButterflyBlood]

48. Actually this is respect to the dead for them

They believe it's giving them a chance to share in their afterlife. Not doing it would kind of be like saying that they don't care about people who weren't Mormons.

Not that I agree with them of course but it doesn't effect the surviving family in any way. I wouldn't mind if anyone claimed to be any of my dead relatives while getting dunked in water.

[Hugabear]

82. This is respectful? Bullshit.

It's basically saying that Jews are inferior, that they need "saving" - even if you have to wait until they are dead and have no say in the matter.

[Bonobo]

16. See post #12. It is my response to you as well.

Or don't.

[Princess Turandot]

21. She and millions of others were murdered because they were Jews...

in the minds of the Mormons, they're performing a ritual which I assume effectively makes her a 'non-Jew'. While I don't believe that eradicating Jews is why they do this, in a way that's what it is. Jews have every right to be angry about that.

[ButterflyBlood]

47. LOL it does not "effectively make her a non-Jew"

By that logic I could remove Islam or Buddhism from the world if I wanted to by getting some friends to "baptize" me while pretending to be Mohammad or Buddha (actually no doubt Mormons have already done that). Or some former Pope (though once again probably has already been done.) You can not change one's identity posthumously by dunking someone in water pretending to be that person. That is just silly.

I don't see the difference between this and baptizing babies anyway, in neither case can consent be given. I was baptized as a baby into a church that I don't want anything whatsoever to do with, but that has no effect on me today, I haven't gone to a Catholic mass since high school (so almost 10 years ago) and was actually baptized into my new church last week.

[golddigger]

42. You do know they also baptized Hitler and Stalin.

[Sheepshank]

83. A perfect heaven

Hitler and Anne (and every other Jew that lives with the fallout of that regime) in the same place for 30,000,000,000,000 years and counting.

[LanternWaste]

58. No more and no less than urinating on a grave, burning a flag or book, or Westboro picketing a funer

"A silly but harmless practice. Everyone should chill the fuck out..."


No more and no less than urinating on a grave, burning a flag or book, or Westboro picketing a funeral.

That being said, there are indeed many, many things which may not us physically. But I do not think that the physical manifestation of harm is the only indicator of harm done.

[boppers]

10. "Again"

A pointless ritual repeated does not make the ritual any more meaningful....

I got baptized for 12 (?) or so strangers in a font on the backs of golden bulls.

Kind of silly, the whole thing, along with the outrage about it.

[HeiressofBickworth]

11. It's the symoblism

I think people are offended that a church would presume to do such a thing, despite an agreement not to do so. Whether or not you believe it has any efficacy, it's the total disregard and callous lack of respect for the dead and the culture from which they came.

[boppers]

17. The LDS thinking is a bit flipped from that.

So, here's the dealio in 3 short sentences:
1. Mormons believe people can change their religion after they die.
2. Mormons believe that people get to pre-heaven and go "Oh shit, the Mormons were right".
3. Mormons get baptized for these dead people, so the dead can get into better parts of heaven if they want.

They think it's honoring the person, and doing something good for the dead.

To any LDS folks: Yes, I omitted a bunch of details, I was trying to keep it short.

Longer story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead

(It has details like Hitler being baptised Along with Anne Frank, Einstein, etc)

Oh, and just to add some fuel: Obama's mom was Baptised and Endowed as LDS as well.

[HeiressofBickworth]

24. I still think

that it shows an utter lack of respect for the dead. The mormons presume that THEY are the only ones with the "truth" and that if people were just exposed to it, they couldn't help themselves but convert. No matter what mental gymnastics they do to come up with the 3 ideas, they start from a premise that is inherently disrespectful and arrogant. THAT is what people don't like.

[boppers]

28. Most religions assume they have the "truth".

I agree that such a construct is disrespectful and arrogant, but it spans most faiths.

[boppers]

30. Three ideas is mine, not theirs.

They are not the only one to believe that there is an afterlife, or that they are "right" in an afterlife, though.

Lots of non-mormons believe that after being brain dead, burnt, cancer depleted, whatever, they won't be dead.

Sad.

If you have eternity to do right, or only a lifetime, what do you slack off on, and what do you do?

[jmowreader]

70. I think it shows disrespect for the living

Because I really don't think Anne Frank cares if the Mormons "re-baptize" her into their church. Because, to paraphrase Pat Tillman's brother at Pat's funeral, "she's fucking dead."

However, the living Jews get completely pissed off when the Mormons pull this shit, and one can see why: it's the LDS church telling the Jewish church, "your religion is no good."

[jsmirman]

19. If this is true

I'm sorry - fuck reason - there are a lot of people I'd like to punch repeatedly in the face.

A girl who died because of her Jewishness - and now you want to fuck with her right to choose her own religion?

As a Jew, I am sorry, but I find this not just in poor taste, but a mortal insult.

And I think this is where also there is confusion for some about the difference between a religion and a race. We are a race, and the world has never let us forget it.

This is unacceptable.

Although I will instead share what I find a more interesting, curious, and worthwhile and musically-wonderful Anne Frank revival (actually, two of them):

&feature=related

[metalbot]

45. Choice is exactly what the mormons think they are offering her

"...now you want to fuck with her right to choose her own religion?"

The whole point of the mormon baptism of the dead is to give the dead a right to choose. They would probably argue that by not doing the baptism they WOULD be denying her the right to choose. A baptism for the dead does not "convert" someone to the LDS church. It simply offers them the choice of joining the church.

[jsmirman]

57. I'm a Jew, I don't want to be baptized/Btw, people should check out the music

Thanks, I guess for your take on this, but that is a whole bunch of rigamarole that is going through the mental gymnastics of the people who did this.

As a Jew, my attitude is simple: don't fuck with Anne Frank.

I kind of don't care what they think they're doing - it's offensive to us (Jews) as a people, and as the aggrieved party, I think our viewpoint is more relevant. I suspect that Jews would overwhelmingly find this not just offensive, but enraging.

[still_one]

25. I think what Bill Maher did was perfect several weeks ago, unbaptize mittens /nt

[JI7]

27. weird , so do they believe by doing this Anne Frank will no longer be Jewish or what?

and that she will accept the mormon faith and as a result be in heaven ?

and Hitler ? why the fuck would you want him to go to heaven considering what he did ?

[ButterflyBlood]

64. They believe that a person is given a choice in the afterlife

So they can accept the baptism and go on to become ruler of their own planet or whatever. They aren't specifically saying that she is no longer Jewish or has accepted Mormonism, just that in the afterlife she now has a choice.

[HeiressofBickworth]

85. She had choices while living

She lived and died a Jew. Now leave her the hell alone.

By the way, do I detect three people on this thread who consistently say the same thing: that the kindly mormons are merely offering dead people an opportunity to be mormon after all. This is the kind of arrogance and disrespect that non-mormons deplore. Is this part of the mormon effort to clean up the reputation of their religion? I think they would go a long way towards that if they would stop the offensive practice of baptizing people who were never of their religion in the first place.

[Bucky]

29. Mormons should posthumously baptize Jon Huntsman's political career.

[Danmel]

33. is there a way.to check their database

My father was a holocaust survivor, along with other family members. My grandparents, aunt, nephew and.cousins.were killed. I want to know if they have been "baptized" by these assholes.

[jberryhill]

36. No, it is done in secret

This report is based on what someone with inside contacts claims.

That's part of what I don't get about the outrage. It's not as if they tell anyone about these things.

So, yes, it's absolutely possible that someone you don't know performed a religious ritual you can't find out about on behalf of a dead person.

[FreeState]

67. That's 100% false - all temple ordinance work is public, anyone can look it up

The Church lets anyone look at its genealogy records, which includes information on if they have done temple work for them and when. The woman in the OP is doing nothing anyone else could easily do. If you go to the church's website you can find a link to online records too (dont know how long it takes them to update those).

Link:
https://www.familysearch.org/

[jberryhill]

73. I can't find a dead baptized person there

Can you PM me an example of one?

[FreeState]

76. It's in their Wiki

https://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/LDS_Temple_Records

[jberryhill]

79. Which says you can't get them...

Did you actually read the information on proxy baptism records?

Restricted temple records can be used in Special Collections by Latter-day Saints with a current temple recommend (a limited use temple recommend is also approved). Also, members without a current recommend can bring a letter from their Bishop stating they are a member in good standing. Information from Special Collections records is not available by telephone, or through the mail. If you cannot visit Special Collections in person, you can ask a friend or relative with a temple recommend to visit special collections for you, or hire a professional researcher with a temple recommend.

[FreeState]

88. That's talking about "Restricted" records - which the wiki says are people that have living

Relatives. Apparently you missed the paragraphs right before your quote.

Access to Temple Records
Most temple records are available to the public. For example, about 75 percent of temple records have no restrictions and can be used at the Family History Library and at Family History Centers.

Only about 20 percent of temple records are restricted, especially records that include information about living people. Restricted temple microfilms are housed in the Special Collections room in the Family History Library, on the B2 floor, and do not circulate to Family History Centers. The hours for Special Collections is the same as for theFamily History Library.

Restricted temple records can be used in Special Collections by Latter-day Saints with a current temple recommend (a limited use temple recommend is also approved). Also, members without a current recommend can bring a letter from their Bishop stating they are a member in good standing. Information from Special Collections records is not available by telephone, or through the mail. If you cannot visit Special Collections in person, you can ask a friend or relative with a temple recommend to visit special collections for you, or hire a professional researcher with a temple recommend.

[riderinthestorm]

46. I don't know how you'd find her, but the woman mentioned in the OP, Helen Radky

is an excommunicated Mormon who's kind of made it her mission to find this stuff.

She's the one who found out that the Weisenthal family had been baptized last week as well. If you can find a way to reach her, I bet she'd help you (well, I hope she would). She finds this extremely disrespectful....

I am really sorry about your family.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

39. They also baptized Adolf Hitler.

And Stalin. Poor Anne. She didn't go through enough when she was alive, now this? Really? Idiots. Let the dead rest in peace, you jackasses.
DUckie

[Skinner]

40. Is there a reason it's been done repeatedly?

Is it because the people doing the baptizing aren't aware it's already been done?

Or can you just keep baptizing someone over and over until it "takes"?

My understanding is that in most (or all?) Christian denominations, one baptism is enough.

[ButterflyBlood]

63. I was baptized twice

Once as a baby, and once again about a week ago. 28 years apart.

The reason though is that my current church prefers that people be baptized aware of it, not as babies, so the issue wasn't that they believe in rebaptism, just that the previous one wasn't done right by their standards. This appears to be a similar case with the confusion over her name, though with the same church doing it over and over it says something about competence.

[FreeState]

68. It's only done once, more than likely a member searched for the information

and the previous records had been removed (the Church agreed to remove Jewish victims from their records years ago) so the member added the name and did the work. There is a check system in place so who ever entered it information entered something, spelling or birthdate or something, that made it clear their system.

Members are only supposed to submit names of people related to them directly or 100+ years dead.

[Snarkoleptic]

43. Ann Romneys athiest father was also "Dead Dunked" by LDS.

http://www.businessinsider.com/confirmed-romney-family-had-ann-romneys-atheist-father-posthumously-baptized-into-the-mormon-church-2012-1

Edward Davies, Ann Romney's father, was an atheist who was also strongly anti-religion. By the time he died, he was the only member of Ann Romney's immediate family to not convert to Mormonism.

Fourteen months later, in 1993, he was baptized in a special ceremony at a Salt Lake City church. This practice requires a living person who has already been baptized to undergo the immersion in water again on behalf of the dead. No word on who this person might have been in Davies' case.

[HopeHoops]

44. I'm sure she would be thrilled.

[Johonny]

51. new business idea

anti-mormon talisman that prevent them from grabbing your soul after death.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

96. Great idea! Right up there with pet care for raptured pet owners.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

52. I'm as worried about Mormon posthumous baptism as I'm worried about

Santa Clause not bringing me presents because I've been a bad, bad girl.

[truebrit71]

60. Well that depends on just how bad you have been...

...care to share with the class?

[joeybee12]

54. This so offensive on so many levels...

Not the least of which is that it reduces religion to something out of an individual's control...don't you get to choose your religion? Or is it chosen by you by some brain-dead polygamists?

[ButterflyBlood]

62. Where's the outrage over baptizing babies then?

I never asked to be baptized in a Catholic church or indoctrinated into it. I'm free of it now but many in the church would argue this binds me to it for life. I disagree of course and say fuck them and the church, I won't even identify with "cultural Catholicism". By the way I am still a Christian and was baptized in my new church a week ago. If the Mormons "baptize" me after I die, that doesn't mean that I ever was a Mormon. If they actually turn out to be right it means I'll get a chance to convert to Mormonism in the afterlife, in which case I should probably be thankful, but I'm not going to count on that happening.

I am not a Catholic no matter who splashed water on my head as a baby. I am not a Mormon and never will be one no matter if someone pretending to be me gets dunked in water after I die. Same with anyone else this has been done to.

[jsmirman]

66. That's all well and good

but as best I understand, you haven't been murdered for being a certain religion/race.

I confess that I'm having a little bit of a problem with people who aren't Jewish telling me that I shouldn't be outraged about Mormons messing with Anne Frank. If you don't have a problem with it, I suppose that's between you and you, but 1) please don't tell me not to be madder than heck and 2) I might suggest that you don't quite understand what it is like growing up in a world where you know that six million people were exterminated because they shared your religion/race. Anne Frank is a voice that escaped from the brutal viciousness of the Nazis (and, quite frankly, an America that didn't give a crap in time).

What the heck is this telling Jews not to be outraged, seriously? I'm closing in on being outraged over being told not to be outraged.

[waddirum]

72. nothing says "irreversible" like a ritual circumcision

I'm still a little miffed about the lack of consent with that particular act.

[TwilightGardener]

55. Just when they seemed to be gaining some mainstream acceptance...

The LDS Church always finds a way to piss people off and shoot itself in the foot.

[smirkymonkey]

84. Mormonism - Making Scientology look reasonable one day at a time.

I agree, I think this was a stupid, insulting and inappropriate move on thier part. Fine if someone actually wants to be a Mormon, but back off when it comes to DEAD people of other faiths. Particularly someone like Anne Frank.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Know what this is like? Telemarketing.

The defenders of the practice will say "oh, it's no big deal, it's harmless", and everyone else is like, "it's fucking annoying. Stop it".

At the very least, there should be a "Do Not Call" style registry for people who don't want to be involuntarily converted after death.

[truebrit71]

59. Fine, I just unbaptized her....are we square now?

Fucking stupid sky-being believers...SHE'S FUCKING DEAD YOU MORANS!!!!

[mike_c]

61. so?

I doubt that it matters.

POOF! I just turned her into a frog!

[paulk]

65. a strange religion is Mormonism

I spent 6 months living and working in eastern Utah in the mid eighties. Absolutely the most alienating experience of my entire life.

[IDemo]

74. Convert a dead Mormon to gay here ->

http://alldeadmormonsarenowgay.com/

"No take-backs"!

[justiceischeap]

75. I'd always read that the reasoning behind the Baptismal of the Dead

is so that the "heavens" would be populated with enough wives to populate the godly mens' given planets by creating spirit children with their spirit wives to populate said planets. Just as God and Mary do.

[aquart]

77. Anne's dead. Hard to desecrate her corpse more than it already was.

After all, we don't know which pile of bodies she was dumped on. Or whether it was cremated or left in a heap for photographers to find and document.

But the arrogance of the Mormon hierarchy and its blazing disrespect of other faiths is a very good reason to question electing any of its strict adherents to the presidency.

And right now I'm not terribly keen on Catholics, either.

[Johnny Rico]

80. In poor taste? Sure. A big deal? Nope.

Suppose the Catholic church declared that Martin Luther was posthumously a member of their church, or that the Church of Scientology declared that Mother Theresa's thetan (soul) was now fighting Xenu in the the afterworld on their behalf.

Why should anyone care other than to point and laugh?

[jsmirman]

87. As a Jew, I am disgusted by these critiques of my outrage

I don't even know how to respond to this without getting a post hidden, because I am angry enough reading these replies that a great deal of profanity is straining to fly from my fingertips.

The best I can do is keep it simple -

If you are not a Jew:

- You may not belong to a religion/race that had 6 million people EXTERMINATED with the acquiescence of a large swath of the world simply because they belonged to your religion/race.

- If you are of African heritage, and therefore share a similarly tragic history, you might just be offended, by, let's just say, the Catholic Church putting out a press release claiming Frederick Douglass owned slaves.

- If you are gay, you might just be offended by someone's claim that Matthew Shepard was self-hating and an avowed hater of homosexuals.

I use these examples, because I ask that people understand that the very reason that Anne Frank was killed is because she was a Jew, and any act (and no, I don't care to understand any esoteric distinctions regarding precisely what the Mormons thought they were doing - she has nothing to do with them, and they should stay the fuck away from her) that in any way suggests a negation of that Jewishness is mortally offensive.

Anne Frank, as I mentioned in another post, is of precious memory to most Jews, be we religious or overwhelmingly secular. Her voice, against impossible odds, managed to escape from under the crushing force of the Nazi jackboot, to be heard by the world even after that jackboot had snuffed out her young life.

If you are not Jewish, I'm not sure that you can understand what it is like to be raised with the knowledge that people tried to exterminate your entire race - to, for many of us, be raised around people who lived through that time, as it was not so long ago that huge swaths of this very same world either participated in this atrocity or stood by with their thumbs up their rear ends while the Nazis and their enablers tried to wipe us from the face of the Earth.

I find many of the comments here shocking, and I will leave it at that, except to say that over-intellectualization is not an excuse for cultural insensitivity.

And I certainly don't appreciate it being attached to a reference to Martin Luther, who hated Jews, and died and was buried by the hand of natural causes and according to his own wishes (or at least the wishes of his close friends), respectively, as best I understand.

The temerity of people telling me and other Jews what we should feel (and this is just what "why should anyone care" is a statement of) is stunning.

[Johnny Rico]

89. An explanation.

The analogies you give:

If you are of African heritage, and therefore share a similarly tragic history, you might just be offended, by, let's just say, the Catholic Church putting out a press release claiming Frederick Douglass owned slaves.

- If you are gay, you might just be offended by someone's claim that Matthew Shepard was self-hating and an avowed hater of homosexuals.

aren't good analogies. Claiming that Douglass owned slaves or that Shepard hated homosexuals would be revisionist history. The Mormons aren't claiming the Anne Frank wasn't Jewish when she was alive, but rather that she her soul has been baptized into their religion, thus allowing her to enter Heaven. This is, of course, absurd.

As for my example of Martin Luther, please let me assure you his anti-Semitism didn't even enter into my mind. I simply used him as an example of someone whose post-death conversion (given his history) would be ridiculous...setting aside the absurdity of the subject in the first place!

I certainly accept that you feel deeply offended about this subject, and I appreciate your explanation. That having been said, I still don't really understand it. Declaring that someone's soul has been converted to another religion is so inane on the face of it that I don't see how anyone could it seriously enough to be offended. I asked my life-long best friend about it, who's Jewish...and his reaction was essentially identical to mine; he found the whole concept so preposterous that he wasn't upset in the slightest.

In closing, let me emphasize again that I had no intent to offend, but I do stand by my words. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you like about it, but I don't understand why...talking about someone's "soul" (whatever that's supposed to be) is like discussing the characteristics of ectoplasm and fairy dust.

[jsmirman]

90. They are precisely chosen analogies

because, taking the Shepard case, it is a negation of, or at the very least, a tampering with the very aspect of the person that they died because of - which is the reason that they both remain such painful and vibrant memories for the respective groups (Douglass did not die for being black, but I use him as a representative of the struggle which involved the daily torture, misery, and death of a people).

Those examples are not just run of the mill revisionist history - they strike at the very heart of the thing that makes them the cherished icons that they are for many of us today. Anne Frank was a wonderful, articulate, thoughtful little girl and a wonderful human being, but that isn't why she is remembered. If she was all those things and was allowed to reach old age and die naturally, she may have accomplished other things that we might remember her by - and her thoughts are beautiful enough that they may have gained some breadth of memory and acclaim. But she is remembered and loved as widely as she is because she was a wonderful, articulate, thoughtful little girl and a wonderful human being who composed such beautiful thoughts despite horrible suffering under the Nazis and who was ultimately murdered because she was Jewish.

As lovely as her diary is, I don't think there would be an Anne Frank House minus the Nazis and her murder.

It's nice that you have a friend who think this is ridiculous, and I can't speak - at least in detail - for any Jew but myself, but I am not a Jew who goes around looking for imagined affronts, and this rouses my extreme ire. When it comes to the Mormons, don't baptize her, don't say a freaking thing about her soul - leave us alone and leave her alone.

[Johnny Rico]

92. I think you chose, well...poorly.

Each of the examples you picked (Shepard and Douglass) are, as you say revisionist history. But the case of the Mormons and Anne Frank is not. They're not saying that anything about her past was different in the slightest, but rather that they have posthumously baptized her. There's no revisionism at all, any more than there would be if someone asserted that Julius Caesar had just been reincarnated as a wombat.

As for your summation of her life & death...all quite true (and very well written, BTW).

[jsmirman]

93. I'm not going to take this any further other than

to say it is precisely those nice little distinctions regarding precisely what the Mormons think it is that they were doing that I don't give a (with no hostility intended toward you here) a flying fuck about.

I don't want them messing with her in a past life, in her actual life, in the afterlife, in a future life, anything. Hands off.

Because the other truth is that, with a view that exceeds anything approximating one's own anal cavity, you damn well know that parts of the Jewish historical memory like "Anne Frank" and "Holocaust" and "Nazi extermination" are sensitive subjects bound to distress and disturb a great many of a particular different people and you shouldn't do it.

And as to Anne Frank, herself, who was countless times the human being I could ever hope to be, if we are talking about the after life, I think she deserves to rest in peace.

[Johnny Rico]

97. But they *can't* mess with her in a past, actual, after, or future life.

No amount of mumbo-jumbo rituals the Mormons do will alter anything about her life or death.

Because the other truth is that, with a view that exceeds anything approximating one's own anal cavity, you damn well know that parts of the Jewish historical memory like "Anne Frank" and "Holocaust" and "Nazi extermination" are sensitive subjects bound to distress and disturb a great many of a particular different people and you shouldn't do it.

I wouldn't, but it's a free country, so they can do whatever they like, taking whatever consequent hits from public opinion occur. As I pointed out in my initial post, it's certainly in bad taste...but beyond that?

And as to Anne Frank, herself, who was countless times the human being I could ever hope to be, if we are talking about the after life, I think she deserves to rest in peace.

I wish such a thing as an afterlife existed. I've seen no evidence that it does.

[Bonobo]

95. Here is the bottom line.

And it is something you will here on DU from women, homosexuals, people of color, etc.

And it is something like this:

So NOT tell me and other Jews how we are supposed to feel about something like this. If we say it is a kick in the teeth, a shot to the groin and a rage-inducing low blow, you should believe us.

No, you should not say that it doesn't matter because it is mumbo-jumbo nor does it matter to us that YOU are not offended or that YOU don't think it is a big deal.

That is immaterial.

Can we come up with a perfect analogy so that your will understand? No. because analogies are imperfect by definition.

I don't want to argue about this. There really IS no arguing about it.

It IS offensive to many Jews and if you are not Jewish, you should not pretend that this is something you could understand in the same way that I or other Jews do.

[Johnny Rico]

98. I'm not telling you how you are supposed to feel. I simply voiced my opinion.

So NOT tell me and other Jews how we are supposed to feel about something like this. If we say it is a kick in the teeth, a shot to the groin and a rage-inducing low blow, you should believe us.

Fine, I believe you. How does that alter anything I've said?

No, you should not say that it doesn't matter because it is mumbo-jumbo nor does it matter to us that YOU are not offended or that YOU don't think it is a big deal.

That is immaterial.

Disagree. I'm simply voicing my opinion, as are you.

Can we come up with a perfect analogy so that your will understand? No. because analogies are imperfect by definition.

I never said it had to be perfect...trust me when I say I know what an analogy is. Some analogies are good, and some are bad...yes?

The analogies in question were bad ones. That's all.

I don't want to argue about this. There really IS no arguing about it.

And yet here you are, doing exactly that!

It IS offensive to many Jews and if you are not Jewish, you should not pretend that this is something you could understand in the same way that I or other Jews do.

Which is the whole point of discussing it, rather than saying "I'm from group X and you're not, so case closed!"

[Bonobo]

99. Right. And my opinion is that it is also offensive to minimize it.

You or anyone else is certainly free to say "It's no big deal", "I can't understand why it's a big deal" or "It's just silly, so why be mad."

But my RESPONSE (and that is what I am doing here, responding) is that the mere act of voicing that view is somewhat insulting in the same way (Not the same situation, but the same WAY) as it would be to tell a black person that they shouldn't be offended by the suggestion that they should be good at dancing or the suggestion that a homosexual woman just needs to meet the right guy, or something like that.

So yes, discussion is great and we are STILL discussing. And what I am saying now is part of that discussion.

[Johnny Rico]

100. Hm...I think we still have poor analogies.

But my RESPONSE (and that is what I am doing here, responding) is that the mere act of voicing that view is somewhat insulting in the same way (Not the same situation, but the same WAY) as it would be to tell a black person that they shouldn't be offended by the suggestion that they should be good at dancing or the suggestion that a homosexual woman just needs to meet the right guy, or something like that.

In each of these cases you would be speaking of something that is demonstrably not true (dancing & meeting the right guy)...whereas in the case of the Mormons baptizing Anne Frank, it is something that they have done...they conducted their rituals and said all the appropriate magic words. Whether or not it had the slightest effect is, of course, totally unverifiable (convenient, that).

You have every right to be offended by this, or even by my indifference towards the whole sillly thing. What you don't have is the right not to be offended. I still don't understand how my dismissal of what is (essentially) some witch doctors casting a magic spell is insulting. While I appreciate your efforts to explain it, I guess I still don't "get" it. Allow me to explain via what I think is a good analogy.

I'm part Blackfoot Indian. Were the Mormon church to go to the effort of posthumously baptizing every Blackfoot Indian who had ever lived, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, because what they're trying to do has nothing to do with reality.

So yes, discussion is great and we are STILL discussing. And what I am saying now is part of that discussion.

Which is the whole point of being here, yes?

[jsmirman]

101. You know, I'd appreciate it if you would stop insulting my analogies

Because it really seems like you still don't get it.

My analogies are accurate if you find the distinctions you draw irrelevant and meaningless to the overall affront.

You find my analogies imprecise because you find the distinction the Mormons would have you draw as to what it is they are precisely doing meaningful to a choice to be offended or not, or the reality of one's reaction.

Once again, we have a difference in what you choose to ascribe meaning to, and what I, as one of the offended parties, find a meaningless and immaterial distinction.

There's starting to be an aspect here where it feels like you are more interested in arguing the matter than in understanding why Bonobo and I are so angered by the Mormon actions.

[Johnny Rico]

102. How exactly do you insult (of all things) an analogy? Disagreement =/= Insult.

My analogies are accurate if you find the distinctions you draw irrelevant and meaningless to the overall affront.

Quite so, which means that your analogies are not accurate if I find the distinctions I draw relevant and meaningful. Which is the case.

You find my analogies imprecise because you find the distinction the Mormons would have you draw as to what it is they are precisely doing meaningful to a choice to be offended or not, or the reality of one's reaction.

Yes, precisely so. I happen to think that what they actually did is kind of, you know...relevant!

Once again, we have a difference in what you choose to ascribe meaning to, and what I, as one of the offended parties, find a meaningless and immaterial distinction.

I choose to ascribe meaning to the actual actions performed. Since you don't, I fail to see how we can come to a meeting of minds at this point. We have an irreconcilable difference.

There's starting to be an aspect here where it feels like you are more interested in arguing the matter than in understanding why Bonobo and I are so angered by the Mormon actions.

Well, of course I'm interested in arguing the matter. The whole point of the OP is that matter!

Look...we're just butting heads here. I'm not particularly offended by this incident, and you are. I don't really understand why it's that big a deal, you tried to explain why it was, and we still disagree.

That's all. At the end of the day we still disagree, and that's not the end of the world. Shall we just leave it at that?

[jsmirman]

103. Oh, I throw my hands up

I still think you're missing something here, but I'll leave it to others or to nobody.

[Johnny Rico]

104. For what it's worth, I feel much the same...in a vice-versa sort of way.

So at least...in a way...we agree on something.

Bye!

[Bonobo]

91. I agree with you unreservedly. +1 million. nt

[auburngrad82]

81. This is really funny

Like something out of the Onion. I guess you don't even need bodies any more. It's the thought that counts. By the way, I just converted Ronald Reagan to the Church of Satan.

[JNathanK]

86. Well. they know in their great wisdom that she had the wrong religion and that she's suffering...

...an existence of mediocrity in the terrestrial plane of the afterlife. Well, isn't that just thoughtful of them then. Since they've baptized her, she might have the opportunity to be reborn to a nice Mormon family so she can graduate to the celestial plane after the next life.

[TheKentuckian]

94. Theological necrophilia

[SomethingFishy]

105. I thought you had to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior

in order to be baptized.

When the Mormons asked Anne Frank who her personal savior was all she could say was... Braaaains....


Sorry, but I find this moronic at best, laughable at most.