Concealed carry holder shot 17-year old hiding in her bathtub, others in today's mass shooting.

[Robb]

More guns working yet?

Among the victims were two building managers and several neighbors, including a 17-year-old girl who police say was shot while trying to hide in a bathtub.

Vargas also fired 10 to 20 shots into the street, killing a man who was walking home with his 9-year-old son whom he had just picked up from boxing practice, police said.

It was the worst Miami area shooting since 1982, when 51-year-old Carl Robert Brown killed nine and wounded three others with a pump-action shotgun after a dispute over a $20 lawnmower repair.

Vargas held a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Police gave no information on where he bought the gun or details from the two-page questionnaire on the permit's application. He had no military background and there were no reports of any psychiatric issues.

Read More: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/28/us-usa-shooting-miami-idUSBRE96Q06G20130728

If only there were more concealed carry holders in Florida, mmm?

[kestrel91316]

1. How wonderful that he had a concealed gun!!! Yay for the 2nd Amendment!!!

Those stupid people should have just stayed out of his way. He was behaving responsibly and then they went and stepped in front of his gun. Loosers.

[JI7]

2. this is so fucked up, and it shows there is nothing fair about this world

a 9 year old walking with his father and suddenly his life is changed forever.

a 17 year old whose final moments were fear .

i read an article that this guy was another law abiding citizen before this.

[Shrike47]

8. They are all law abiding citizens until they aren't.

[ellie]

54. Thank you!

This is my point exactly: They are all law abiding gun owners until they aren't law abiding gun owners.

[struggle4progress]

3. We can estimate that the Vargas attaches to a human life is less than $2

[olddots]

4. Yee ha Bobby Joe just like the movies

face it it's a devolving culture where people who want to progress may not be out numbered but we may be out gunned .

[enough]

5. "an irrational act"

snip from the article>

"When we found him he still had plenty of live rounds of ammunition," Hialeah Police spokesman Carl Zogby told reporters. "This was an irrational act and many times there is no rational explanation."

snip>

Irrational. So there is no explanation and nothing can be done. People are dead because this guy had a gun and could kill with no skill, no strength, and no "rationality." No, nothing can be done. We must accept this, as if it were a hurricane, or drought.

[Neoma]

55. Are we going to get mad and yell out the window?

That hasn't worked for me yet.

[Hoyt]

6. Another permit holder gone bad -- the deniers will tell us it doesn't happen.

They are such fine law-abiding gun toters, and we should be thrilled to have them.

[SheilaT]

7. The more of the incidents that occur,

and the more guns that are sold and bought as a result, isn't it astonishing that somehow there's never a "good guy with a gun" when you need one?

I still say we'd all be safer if all the guns were confiscated. And those of you who are going to snarl in outrage at this suggestion, tell me again just how many bad guys with guns are stopped each and every day by the good guys with guns? And that compares to how many other gun deaths occur each and every day of the year?

[Niceguy1]

51. according to the pacifica evening

News the homicide rate is the lowest in years and trending downward.

[SheilaT]

52. Gosh, that's reassuring.

So just because it's trending down it's okay?

I'm sure you're going to be just fine if it's one of your loved ones who is one of the trending downward gun murders.

[Pale Blue Dot]

9. Thank you for continuing to post these stories.

We need a record of reality, as painful as it is.

[Hugabear]

10. This is not true

Gungeoneers tell us that conceal carry permit holders are responsible gun owners, and don't do this sort of thing

[Robb]

11. It is, the gundies assure, not relevant that he held a CCW permit.

As irrelevant as the fact he chose to kill with a gun! Why he might just as well have slaughtered them all with a swimming pool!

[X_Digger]

13. You feel free to burn that straw man, we'll all get marshmallows and watch. :) n/t

[Hugabear]

23. So gungeoneers have never claimed that CCW permit holders are responsible gun owners?

Really?

[X_Digger]

24. Every single one? Nope.

At a rate far better than the general public? Demonstrably so.

[jberryhill]

28. Most of the general public is not carrying a concealed firearm

You see, if 10% of the population is carrying a gun, and only 1% of the population is homicidally bonkers, it still works out that 100% of the homicidal nutjobs with a gun ACTUALLY have a gun.

[X_Digger]

30. If someone is "homicidally bonkers" (nice term, btw)..

Chances are, they won't let the lack of a permit to carry concealed stop them.

[jberryhill]

31. But it sure made it easier here, didn't it?

You may live in a metaverse of parallel universes in which all sorts of hypotheticals are true, but unfortunately I live in the one in which this man has a concealed carry permit, as do many other perfectly sane and sober citizens who - as anyone - can go nuts at any time.

[X_Digger]

32. Trip on a crack in the sidewalk and fall down "homicidally bonkers" much, do they?

Umm, yeah. First rule when finding yourself in a hole- put down the shovel.

[jberryhill]

35. Do you still run with scissors?

When I was a kid, I was remarkably fast and agile. It is much safer for kids to run with scissors, provided they take due precautions.

[X_Digger]

37. Do you still drive on the interstate? No telling when one driver might up and go..

"homicidally bonkers" and cause a 20 car pile-up.

*shiver*

[jberryhill]

38. Well thank God they don't run interstates through bathtubs

But of course, any number of people hiding in their bathtubs are hit by 18 wheelers every day!

[X_Digger]

39. I'll take my chances with bathtubs, thanks.

But you be sure to watch out for those cracks, never know when a bobble might turn you "homicidally bonkers".

[jberryhill]

41. When I trip on the sidewalk, people don't die

[X_Digger]

42. You never know.. if going "homicidally bonkers" is so easy.. ("as anyone - can go nuts at any time")

Maybe we should take your keys away from you.. just in case.

[jberryhill]

43. How about this instead...

There is an extensive scheme of legislation and regulation which is consistently updated and improved in order to reduce the incidence of auto fatalities to a socially accepted level in view of the tremendous utility of automobiles. Motor vehicles move people to such things as medical treatments and places of education or employment. They transport goods, and a lot of our present economic infrastructure is premised upon them. They bring an enormous social benefit.

So do things like running, or even scissors. Now, each of those things is fine and has definite utility. But the risk of running with scissors negates the joint utility of speedily moving to something in need of cutting.

[X_Digger]

58. Ahh, but we're not talking utility, we're talking going "homicidally bonkers". n/t

[jberryhill]

59. That phrase seems to have really struck a chord with you

However, while the net utility of automobiles is tremendous, gun owners are more likely to hurt themselves or others with guns than they are to successfully defend themselves.

[X_Digger]

60. I'll admit, the phrase offends me, as does the idea of mental illness causing homicide on a whim.

The reality is, people with mental illness are more often the *victim* of violent crime than the perpetrator, by at least a five to one margin (it's estimated to be even higher, because the mentally ill often fail to report-- or do not have the capability to effectively do so-- violent crime.)

I know that you've spoken up on this subject before, so to see you spew that same crap really surprises me. I thought better of you.

[Squinch]

63. Oh, come on. You must, in your heart of hearts, know that this isn't a straw man, and that

a common argument against gun control, an argument that is frequently used here, is that most gun owners are responsible and that somehow the small percentage of people who engage in killing sprees mean that there is little reason to enact gun control.

THAT is the straw man. You have to see that, right?

[X_Digger]

65. Read further down the subthread.

As I said in post #24, Nobody claims that all concealed carry holders are perfect angels. That's the straw man I was responding to.

But the rate of arrest and conviction for concealed carry holders is demonstrably less than the general public.

[Squinch]

66. And again, it's not about being perfect angels. Its about the argument that gun owners

are responsible.

As a group, in terms of the damage they do, they clearly are not.

It still absolutely leaves me gobsmacked that those gun owners who ARE responsible are not the most vocal, most active proponents of stringent gun control. The fact that they are not puts the lie to claims about responsible gun owners.

[X_Digger]

68. 99.8% of all gun owners and 99.5% of all guns are never involved in crime.

They're likely not interested in the issue because it doesn't affect them.

According to the BJS, there are about 360,000 crimes committed each year with guns, and there are ~80M gun owners with at least 150,000,000 guns (based on NICS background checks since 1998).

[Squinch]

70. I like to sail. If I learned that somehow a very small number of sailers were suddenly

using sailboats to engage in spree killings, it would be hard for you to keep me away from working hard to get that stopped.

I wouldn't say, "I'm not the one doing it." I wouldn't trot out statistics about how safe sailboats really are. If I knew they were being used to intentionally kill people, I'd work to make that stop.

Any gun owner who is not working to make that stop is not responsible.

You can cite all the statistics you want (and in response to my saying that, you can say, "Oh, you just won't look at the facts" all you want) but somewhere you know that your hobby is creating the conditions that allow this to happen.

[X_Digger]

71. Two in a thousand? Somehow I doubt your sincerity.

Let's not even look at actual numbers of gun owners and *spree* killings.

I'd imagine it would be something on the order of one in 5,000,000 or more.

[Squinch]

72. And again, the denial of the need to regulate your hobby puts a lie to any claims to responsible gun

ownership.

People are dead. Because of a hobby.

[X_Digger]

73. Hobby for some, protection for others, food on the table for yet others. And a right for all. n/t

[Squinch]

74. Nevertheless, the denial of the need for significant gun regulation puts the lie to any claims of

responsible gun ownership.

[X_Digger]

75. One in five million as impetus? Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on your appeal. n/t

[Squinch]

77. Call bullshit all you like. Deep down, as a thinking person, you know this is crazy

and needs to stop.

[X_Digger]

79. If we applied that same level of risk aversion to everyday life, we'd be wrapped in styrofoam. n/t

[Squinch]

81. You know, we both know how this goes. You quip, I quip, the same old arguments

are trotted out. The furor dies down and in a couple of month another score of people are mowed down for no reason.

Those people are dead. Because we won't control guns in our country. Because some lobby group has made it impossible for us to do so. And because people are buying into that group's message that we shouldn't.

I just don't have the stomach for the silliness that these arguments devolve into after the events of today.

Have a nice night.

[X_Digger]

82. G'night.

For some well-needed levity..

[Squinch]

83. Thank you for the laugh.

[Jenoch]

33. I read a report somewhere

(sorry, I cannot remember where) that police officers are more likely to do this sort of thing before a CCW holder. Probably just statistics since there are more LEO than there are CCW.

[Orrex]

12. Could have been a lot worse

He could have been carrying a swimming pool or a few bottles of household cleaning chemicals, because we know that those are much more dangerous than firearms.

[BainsBane]

15. Or a car

Don't forget the horrors of automobile killings.

[Jenoch]

34. I will never forget the

horrors of automobile killings. My best friend's mom was killed in a hit and run in the late 60s and they never caught the killer. Why would you minimize the affect automobile fatalities have on families in this manner?

I still remember when my friend told me he was getting a new mom. We were in the first grade.

[BainsBane]

36. I guess that means you have forsaken cars?

And never drive or ride in one yourself?

[Jenoch]

40. Absolutely not.

I also will not minimize the deaths of people who died in auto accidents to make a political point.

[Squinch]

64. Gun control opposers often use the argument that cars kill more people than guns.

It is valid to criticize that argument. Sorry about your friend, but the minimization happens when gunners equate automobile deaths and gun deaths.

[Jenoch]

67. Go back and re-read the posts to which I have responded.

It was BainesBane who brought up automobile deaths, not me.

[Squinch]

69. In response to one of the arguments that gunners trot out with dulling regularity,

when they are defending their anti-gun control positions, when there has been a spree killing, which also happens now with dulling regularity.

This is just nuts. ANd somewhere, deep down, you know all this.

[Jenoch]

76. Again, I DID NOT bring up auto fatalities.

If you wish to post a link to one of my posts where I did use your argument, go ahead and look, but you won't find anything.

Besides that, why don't you post a link to my posts that say I am against all gun laws?

[Squinch]

78. I am not saying you brought up auto fatalities. I am saying it is reasonable for the poster to

anticipate that the car argument will come up in support of denial of the need for gun control laws. Because it always does.

[Jenoch]

84. "Because it always does."

That reads like hyperbole to me.

[TransitJohn]

14. Bathtubs and showers ought to all have shotguns installed. Then that 17 year old girl

could have protected herself and all those others.

[arely staircase]

16. maybe she was suspicious

and looking around like she was on drugs or something.

[JI7]

17. she was arming herself with the bath tub

[NoOneMan]

26. Pinning him down and pummeling him with fear alone

[eppur_se_muova]

18. "An armed society is a polite society."

I'm sure he said "excuse me, please" first.

[Rex]

19. So I guess he felt threatened by society?

I'm sure he will use the Zimmerman defense to the X power.

[NickB79]

20. He's dead; the police shot the POS.

At least that saves us the expense of trying his sorry ass.

[Rex]

22. Oh, good.

Ya I agree.

[napkinz]

21. America ... Number 1! woo-hooooo!

[PowerToThePeople]

25. Guns kill

[Jenoch]

27. The guy obviously had some sort

of mental breakdown. What was your point again? Was it to ban all private ownership of handguns?

[jberryhill]

29. No, we must ban mental breakdowns!

But Big Crazy is spending all of their lobbying and PR budget on blaming guns.

[okieinpain]

46. yes more guns.

[Jenoch]

47. "yes more guns."

yes more guns, what....

[okieinpain]

48. more guns my man, that is the answer to all of our problems

more guns, bigger guns, bigger bullets.

[Jenoch]

50. If guns get any

bigger, men won't be able to carry them. If bullets get any bigger, men won't be able to shoot them.

[okieinpain]

61. lol. when me and my son went to see the movie "the purge"

Last edited Thu Aug 1, 2013, 06:29 PM - Edit history (1)

The first thing we said to each other is i would buy the biggest gun in the world. Then the movie starts and the first thing they say in the movie is you cant use a gun over a certain size.

How can you have a night of any thing goes, but you cant use the wrong class of gun. Lol, so yeah, if you let these fools continue they will build something thats too big.

[Politicalboi]

44. Here's one

http://www.citizen-times.com/VideoNetwork/2558931486001/River-floater-shot-in-head-killed-by-property-owner

River floater shot in head, killed by property owner. Maybe Stand Your Water could be a defense.

[PowerToThePeople]

49. seriously fucked

http://www.ksdk.com/comments/389182/3/Man-shot-in-head-while-on-float-trip

We really need to go in and take all the guns away from these fucks. With force if needed. I am tired of seeing unarmed people murdered in cold blood by these gun-loving fuckwads.....

[okieinpain]

45. yes more guns, bigger guns, bigger bullets, more, more

the tea party is so smart.

[malaise]

53. You do know that this began when he torched $10,000 which he withdrew from the bank

and started a fire in the apartment. When the building manager and his wife arrived to rescue him and extinguish the fire he shot them dead and then opened fire from his balcony and then moved through the floors killing people.

How the fuck he didn't have a background check is way more crazy than the shooter himself.

[Evasporque]

56. MOHR GUHNZ! nt

[Eleanors38]

57. Shoppers! The Blue Light Special today is more hate. So stock up now!

Last edited Tue Jul 30, 2013, 10:37 AM - Edit history (2)

[Squinch]

62. kick

[gopiscrap]

80. wow it's just gotta stop

we need to protest, write letters, disrupt business as usual at the NRA headquarters. email, run campaigns and do anything else possible to get stricter gun laws and more comprehensive background checks.