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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsVote on Amash-Conyers Amendment to Stop NSA’s Blanket's Surveillance up now in the house. Live here
LIVE HERE: http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/
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Amash Amendment #100: Stop NSAs Blanket Surveillance of Americans
On Wednesday, the House will have its first floor debate over NSAs blanket collection of Americans telephone records. The Amash-Conyers amendmentand only the Amash-Conyers amendmentends the indiscriminate collection of those records. The amendment limits the governments collection of records under Section 215 of the Patriot Act to those records that pertain to a person who is subject to an investigation under that provision.
How Sec. 215 surveillance works
The Patriot Acts Sec. 215 (50 U.S.C. § 1861) authorizes the government to collect tangible things that are relevant to an authorized national security investigation.
We now know that NSA used Sec. 215 to collect metadata on every phone call that every American has made, reportedly over the last seven years. That metadata includes numbers dialed, numbers of incoming calls, times of the calls, and routing information. Many Members who voted for the Patriot Act, including the past chairman of the laws authorizing committee, have stated that NSAs blanket surveillance program is far beyond what was intended in the law.
Pursuant to Sec. 215 and at the request of the government, the FISA court routinely enters 90-day orders to telecommunications providers like Verizon to turn over to the government all call detail records or telephony metadata for calls within the U.S., including purely local calls. The FISA court approves the procedures that the administration says it will impose on itself to limit its own access to the data.
The administration has not provided a public explanation as to how the telephone records of all Americans are relevant to a national security investigation. Similarly, Sec. 215 is silent as to how the government may use these records once it has obtained them.
What the Amash-Conyers amendment does
The Amash-Conyers amendment ends NSAs blanket collection of Americans telephone records. It does this by requiring the FISA court under Sec. 215 to order the production of records that pertain only to a person under investigation.
The amendment has three important practical effects. First, it ends the mass surveillance of Americans. The government no longer is authorized under Sec. 215 to hold a pool of metadata on every phone call of every American. Second, the amendment permits the government to continue to acquire business records and other tangible things that are actually related to an authorized counterterrorism investigation. The government still has access to this tool under the amendment, but its forced to comply with the intent of Congress when it passed Sec. 215. Third, the amendment imposes more robust judicial oversight of NSAs surveillance. The FISA court will be involved every time NSA searches Americans records, and the court will have a substantive, statutory standard to apply to make sure the NSA does not violate Americans civil liberties.
What steps would the government take to collect records if the Amash-Conyers amendment were enacted? The government would have to provide facts to the FISA court to show that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the records sought (1) are relevant to an appropriately authorized national security investigation and (2) pertain to the person (including any group or corporation) under investigation.
We know that the government can use that process effectively in its investigations because it already does. Based on the governments public statements, it appears that the government routinely goes to the FISA court for Sec. 215 orders for tangible things pertaining to persons under investigation. If the government uses non-bulk collection for other Sec. 215 orders, there is no good reason why the government needs bulk collection of Americans telephone metadata.
What the Amash-Conyers amendment does NOT do
The amendment does not affect foreign surveillance. FISA simply does not apply to the surveillance of purely foreign communications. See 50 U.S.C. § 1802. FISA court orders under Sec. 215 cover local telephone calls (wholly within the U.S.) and calls between the U.S. and abroad. NSAs Sec. 215 phone surveillance program covers only calls in which at least one side is in the U.S.
The amendment does not restrict the types of records that the government can collect under Sec. 215. NSA and the FBI can continue to collect telephone records, car rental reservations, hotel receipts, and any other tangible thing under Sec. 215. NSA can continue to collect telephone metadata without a warrant and without probable cause that a crime or other statutory violation has been committed. The amendment simply requires that there be a reasonable connection between the documents sought and the person under investigation.
The amendment does not take away a tool that has proved effective in the fight against terrorism. The administration claims that surveillance conducted under FISA Sec. 702, including the PRISM program, has disrupted terrorist plots, including the New York subway plot. The Amash-Conyers amendment does not address FISA Sec. 702 in any way. The amendment concerns Patriot Act Sec. 215 alone, not Sec. 702. The administrations one and only public example of a Sec. 215 success is the conviction of a taxi driver for sending money to a Somali group. Reports suggest that the Somali group posed no direct threat to the U.S., the investigation did not uncover an imminent threat, and the data could have been obtained without Sec. 215. For that success, the government has collected billions of Americans records.
As you go home for August recess, you will be asked: Did you oppose the suspicionless collection of every Americans phone records? When you had the chance to stand up for Americans privacy, did you? Please support Amash amendment #100 and oppose the NSAs blanket surveillance of your constituents.
Downloads
» AmashNSAfactsheet.pdf
http://amash.house.gov/speech/amash-nsa-amendment-fact-sheet
bunnies
(15,859 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)this is entirely reasonable. the vote will be interesting.
antiquie
(4,299 posts)AllINeedIsCoffee
(772 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)repuke nut in terms of his bills and is a NSA supporter so I quit looking.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)based on the others his name is on.
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)This amendment defunds the EDA, which is a "Great Society" program from 1965 that ostensibly provides financial aid to economically distressed areas of the country in order to stimulate economic growth.
http://www.clubforgrowth.org/perm/?postID=15891
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)I was distracted - just found out someone came up on my porch and stole stuff. I'm pissed.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)FirstLight
(13,362 posts)of course he is saying that surveillance is fine..."our nation is under siege"
oh no...here we go Sept 11, blahblahblah...if we pass this bill we will go back to sept 10...
BULLSHIT
Catherina
(35,568 posts)bunnies
(15,859 posts)WHEN is she going away?!
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Michelle Bachmann: "the only people who benefited from these NSA disclosures are" --- guess who? - "those engaged in Islamic jihad".
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Rep Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif): Whole "oversight" claim for the NSA is an ugly joke - and the idea the Patriot Act allows mass NSA spying is, too
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Other than the usual wanabe Police State nuts.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Rep. Barton: this is about whether the NSA has the right to collect every call, on every American, every day. Support the Amash Amendment!
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Rep. Poe now saying the NSA phone records program is akin to a general warrant, which caused the US Fathers rebelled against the British.
"Get a specific warrant based on probably cause, or stay out of our lives! And that's the way it is."
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Rep. Griffith (R-VA) again brings up general warrants, says secret law has no place in democracy.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)It's a FINE surveillance program lol. Just metadata, just an excel spreadsheet with 5 columns, billions of rows and kept in a LOCKBOX
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Is it me, or does he look like a real douche bag? Comparing his experience in a warzone with the rights and privileges in the United States for citizens.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)They didn't even let it go to a recorded vote...
That means they would have lost the fucking vote, and they know it.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)They only allowed a voice vote on Amash amendment - decreed it failed - now refuse a voice vote #TotalCowards
AllINeedIsCoffee
(772 posts)that a certain someone doesn't know much about how Congress works.
Response to AllINeedIsCoffee (Reply #27)
Marr This message was self-deleted by its author.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Are they going to vote on the Amash Amendment?
edit: I think the vote is coming after this one?
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Right now, the House is voting on the decoy amendment by Pompeo. The final recorded vote on the Amash amendment will be afterwards
bunnies
(15,859 posts)It was weird for a minute there.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)9 min until vote on Pompeo amendment, then 5 min until Amash amendment
bunnies
(15,859 posts)While this one gets 15+? Doesnt seem right to me.
struggle4progress
(118,332 posts)To judge from what followed, Amash may have a later opportunity to insist on his recorded division of the House
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Im horrible at figuring this stuff out.
struggle4progress
(118,332 posts)but almost half the House seems to have been missing from the floor, and I think this was a use of the rules to ensure that House members actually got a chance to vote on the amendment, without having to sit and listen to all the comments
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Is that why theyre allowing more than 15 min too? Seems like the clock ran down but votes are still coming in.
struggle4progress
(118,332 posts)Recorded vote, yeas and nays, or automatic rollcall vote taken either by electronic system or by use of tellers with ballot cards--two bells and two lights on left indicate a vote in House or in Committee of the Whole by which Members are recorded by name. Bells are repeated five minutes after the first ring. When by unanimous consent waiving the five-minute minimum set by clause 5(b)(3) of rule I the House authorized the Speaker to put remaining postponed questions to two-minute electronic votes, two bells were rung (Oct. 4, 1988, pp. 28126, 28148).
Recorded vote, yeas and nays, or automatic rollcall electronic vote on recommittal to be immediately followed by possible five-minute vote on final passage (clause 5 of rule XV)--two bells rung at beginning of motion to recommit, followed by five bells, indicate that Chair will order five-minute votes if recorded vote, yeas and nays, or automatic vote is ordered immediately thereafter on final passage or adoption. Two bells repeated five minutes after first ring ... &c&c
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/HMAN-104/html/HMAN-104-pg542.htm
Absorb the hundreds of pages of rules and you'll be an expert!
bunnies
(15,859 posts)No wonder the House is nuts. Pg 542... wow.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)matthews
(497 posts)about forming a coalition. Now people are defending Snowden.
It won't pass (IMO) but this won't be the end of it.
FirstLight
(13,362 posts)it looks like it will pass?
also...listening to the phone calls... this is VERY biparitsan in support, I am hearing Libertarians, Repubs, and Liberals ALL saying they think the NSA is NOT allowed to do this!
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)White House braced for Congress vote on amendment to limit NSA collection
Obama opposed to 'Amash amendment' as vote provides first test of congressional opinion on widespread NSA surveillance
Spencer Ackerman in Washington
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 24 July 2013 16.55 BST
The Obama administration has portrayed the amendment as a reckless push to end what they consider a vital activity for national security. Photo: Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty
The White House, Congress and the National Security Agency were bracing for a pivotal and unpredictable vote on Wednesday on the future of domestic mass surveillance in the US.
....
"This is the moment," said Michelle Richardson, a surveillance lobbyist for the ACLU.
Even if Amash's push to limit the NSA program fails, civil libertarian groups are preparing for a long battle, fueled by the belief that public opinion is finally tipping their way. On Thursday, a court in New York was due to hear preliminary legal arguments on a case brought by the ACLU that challenges the constitutionality of the NSA's mass collection of phone records.
It is the first court challenge since the Snowden revelations, and the ACLU believes it has a strong case because of the publication by the Guardian of a secret court order authorising the bulk collection of Verizon records, and because it is a Verizon customer.
...
The legislative fight is the rare Washington battle that does not divide along partisan lines, but between civil liberties supporters in both parties and security hawks in both parties. Amash's bill has the support of the longtime liberal Democratic congressman John Conyers of Michigan, the top Democrat on the House judiciary committee.
...
More: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/24/white-house-congress-amendment-nsa-surveillance
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Sadly, but expected.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)I figure it will be late tonight, but probably early tomorrow before the Apologists get their marching orders and fill the forum with posts about how narrowly the nations ability to fight Terrorism was saved from the ill informed members of Congress.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)matthews
(497 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)matthews
(497 posts)But victory is sweeter after a hard, well-fought battle.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)according to estimates I saw on twitter. That's great news.
matthews
(497 posts)that people are angry.
Did you hear the military people? Not happy. Not happy at all.
One woman said her Dad and her brother were either one current and one ex-military, or maybe both ex-military. Anyway, she said that they're both angry and said "this isn't the country I served for".
My brothers (3) are split. Two against the NSA and one chicken shit who won't say anything (which probably means he's for it). That's why we always beat Bobby up every chance we got when we were little. He was born an irritating know-what's-best-for-everyone authoritarian jerk. (He also defaulted on a car loan my ex and I signed for him once.)
We should have thumped his hide more than we did.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)People are very angry but this administration just remains tone deaf. I'd do some soul searching too. Deep.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)matthews
(497 posts)Did you listen to the people calling in? No wonder there wasn't a recorded vote.
This could seriously hurt Democrats in '14.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)... for getting through all the resolutions. Good thing their health insurance covers injuries resulting from patting themselves too vigorously on the back.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)This vote was clearly meant to embarrass Obama, like those useless House votes to repeal ACA, and had no chance of actually getting to his desk and no real purpose except political theater. That's about all the House is good for these days. So I'm glad it failed.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Rush Holt: Repeal the Surveillance State Act
News from
Representative Rush Holt
12th District, New Jersey
http://www.holt.house.gov
For Immediate Release Contact: Chris Gaston
July 24, 2013 202-225-5801
HOLT INTRODUCES SURVEILLANCE STATE REPEAL ACT
Bill Would Repeal PATRIOT Act, Other Over-broad Surveillance Law
(Washington, DC) Today Rep. Rush Holt introduced legislation to repeal federal surveillance laws that the government abused by collecting personal information on millions of Americans in violation of the Constitution, as revealed by a federal whistleblower and multiple media outlets last month.
As we now know, the National Security Agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have been collecting the personal communications of literally millions of innocent Americans for no legitimate reason, said Holt. Instead of using these powers to zero in on the tiny number of real terrorist threats we face, the executive branch turned these surveillance powers against the American people as a whole. My legislation would put a stop to that right now.
Holts bill, the Surveillance State Repeal Act, would repeal the PATRIOT Act and the FISA Amendments Act, each of which contains provisions that allowed the dragnet surveillance. The bill would reinstate a uniform probable cause-based warrant standard for surveillance requests, and prohibit the federal government from forcing technology companies from building in hardware or software back doors to make it easier for the government to spy on the public. Additional features of the bill include the true legal protections for national security whistleblowers, as well as changes to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to give it greater expertise in reviewing and challenging executive branch applications for surveillance operations.
The executive branchs groundless mass surveillance of Americans has turned our conception of liberty on its head. My legislation would restore the proper constitutional balance and ensure our people are treated as citizens first, not suspects.
http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/07/rush-holt-repeal-surveillance-state-act.html
randome
(34,845 posts)Then, and only then, will they be in a position to decide whether or not such things as metadata collection is in the national interest.
Without that knowledge, this is simple political posturing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
Marr
(20,317 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)But I'm not certain what you're referring to. If you could provide a link or more info, that would be appreciated.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
Marr
(20,317 posts)Regarding James Clapper's claim that they were not collecting data on US citizens en masse.
randome
(34,845 posts)Clapper was sworn to secrecy and then asked about it in a public hearing. It was a Catch-22 situation and he finessed it poorly.
But as someone else on DU pointed out, 'collection' has a distinctly different meaning to those in the intelligence community. I'm not worried about it. It's only metadata and even Carl Bernstein said it seems like the NSA's safeguards and restrictions are pretty strong.
Ironically, Snowden disproved many of his own allegations so this Amash amendment was rightfully voted down.
Now if someone can show us evidence that the NSA is spying on American citizens with the kind of abandon Snowden and Greenwald want us to believe, I'm all for reigning them in.
Absent that, I think we have more real monsters than theoretical ones to fight.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)There are a few people I'm really curious about. I do wonder, however, how many of the votes are sincere and how many are pandering or vote-trading to make sure the desired outcome is achieved without putting any individual at risk.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)That the vote was so close all but guarantees that as an issue, the NSAs domestic surveillance programs will be challenged again, and perhaps successfully.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/24/rep-amashs-amendment-to-defund-the-nsas-domestic-phone-metadata-program-fails-205-217/
And here's the letter the BUSH people sent to Congress telling them not to cut this fantastic surveillance program: http://intelligence.house.gov/sites/intelligence.house.gov/files/documents/LetterSupportNSAPrograms.pdf
Catherina
(35,568 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Thanks for this thread, Catherina.
Obama best get in line or he will be squashed.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 412
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll412.xml
Summary
___________Ayes--Noes--PRES---NV
Republican___94---134----0-----6
Democratic__111---83-----0-----6
Independent
TOTALS_____205---217---0----12
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)whose side are you on, DU sisters and brothers? This complicates the task of scolding us "bad Democrats" for supporting the bill, but surely won't stop it.