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XemaSab
(60,212 posts)
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I'm surprised by how many people on DU refuse to see the major players involved as complex individuals with their own narratives and their own agency in the situation.
I get wanting to turn everyone involved into a symbol, but IMHO it creates a trope that's just as racist as what the right wingers are pushing.
Not every altercation between a white person (or an honorary white person) and a black person is like the Emmett Till or Reginald Denny cases.
Trayvon was minding his own business when Zimmerman got up in his scene, and it's horrible that he wound up dead.
IMHO each one of them had other options, but they both resorted to violence, and the dude who didn't have a gun was killed by the dude who did have the gun.
Portraying a 17-yo who was almost 6 feet tall, a football player, a fast runner, and a boxer as a little doe-eyed 8-yo is not respecting him as man and a person, it's just turning him into a victim and a symbol. It's as dehumanizing as putting Zimmerman in a hood.
Even the narrative of Trayvon's supposed purity and innocence is racist, IMHO. "He was going to go to college!" reads to me as "He was one of the good ones!" If Trayvon had been caught coming out of someone's house with a TV in one hand and a sack of jewelry in the other hand, would Zimmerman have been right in shooting him? Absolutely not!
Hell, my high school was full of white kids who stole stuff, drank, did drugs, and acted like jerks. Trayvon was an ordinary kid. I'm still on "his" side in the altercation, and recognizing some nuance there isn't a problem for me.
Trayvon's life had value, and respecting and honoring his complexity as a human being doesn't make what happened any less tragic.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)wrong. I see him as a 17 yr old who was trying to defend himself against an older man who followed him, confronted him, instigated an incident and was killed for no good reason. His case was not investigated full enough, evidence was not gathered but instead the killer's word was taken as Fact from the beginning. To me, that is very troubling and worth protesting and being upset about.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)But zimmie was, had been taking MMA training for a year, 3 times a week for 3.5 HOURS AT A TIME! IF things happened the way he claimed, zimpie would have looked like this:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023254619#post1
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)and I think that's where the DOJ investigation should go. The fact that the evidence collection was totally half-assed says that they just accepted what Z told them and just went through the motions.
He played football for five years and the videos on his cell phone showed him sparring with friends. Rachel Jeantel said that she thought Trayvon threw the first punch, and he texted friends about getting into fights.
This was not a young man who was afraid to be physical with other people and he wasn't totally incapable of defending himself against an older man.
Again, he wasn't a small child and portraying him as a small child is dehumanizing.
Even a young black man who knows how to throw a punch deserves a full police investigation.
The police screwed up, the prosecution screwed up, there was reasonable doubt, and Z walked.
brush
(53,784 posts)I'd have to say that anyone, and that includes jurors, who believe you can just get up from 20-30 head bashings on concrete and just walk away has to be among some of the stupidest people walking the earth.
The jurors were supposed to be non-biased adults making thorough deliberations on the evidence but they bought the whole zimmerman camp story lock stock and barrel that Martin attacked and beat the crap out of zimmerman, even though there was no zimmerman dna or blood anywhere on Martin's body, or scratches, cracked knuckles or gouges on Martin's hands, even though he allegedlly connected with 35-45 punches to zimmy's face, and smothered his nose and mouth.
Hell, Stevie Wonder can see those are lies. Why did the jury only believe zimmerman's side when he had every motive to lie (duh, he didn't want to go to jail where the cons in there would be waiting for him)? I'd day maybe biases clouded their judgment.
Yes. That's right, I said it. ". . . among some of the stupidest people walking the earth, and biases clouded their judgment." And that's not a hypothesis. It's actuality. You must not have followed this link about the real person who bashed their head on concrete just once. It was an actual occurrence, not some made up lie to save his ass like the zimmerman story. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023254619
I know you want to believe zimmerman, but come on, use your common sense. Human heads and concrete don't mix.
And about zimmerman's other claim to have been beaten in the face 35-45 times. Here's a link with photos of what beating victims actually look like.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3306770
If you want to really open your mind, check out the links and get back to me.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)but here in the United States the burden of proof is on the prosecution and the job of the defense is to raise reasonable doubt.
Rachel Jeantel (star witness for the prosecution) said that she thinks Trayvon took the first swing and was roundly kicking Zimmerman's ass when he got shot.
If Rachel Jeantel had been on the jury, she would have had to vote to acquit based on the words out of her own mouth.
brush
(53,784 posts)Jantel wasn't there to know who started the fight. She was listening. She also testified that Martin said "get off, get off".
20-30 head bashes and 35-45 punches by Martin to zimmerman. Ditch your biases and use your head. If you followed the links you have to know those are lies.
wasting your time. Many on here were just like b37 the juror. Mind made up from the minute zimPIG pulled the trigger. "That black had to be wrong or he wouldn't have got shot". geez
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I feel in my heart that Z was an asshole who should have gone down for something, but I looked at the evidence and I think the jury was right to have reasonable doubt.
I'm not accusing you of this, but so many people here are so confused about what reasonable doubt means.
If DU was in charge of the justice system, Zimmerman would have been hanging from a tree last year. That's not how the legal system works in this country.
I know your understanding of the case and the bullshit instruction gave all of you and the jurors all the wiggle room you needed. No problem, I do understand amerikkkan justice, southern justice especially and you and rest of the zimPIG apologists/logicist are REALLY a perfect picture of what the problem is. Purposeful head in sanditis. Just like those goddam jurors down there.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)You know exactly what I'm thinking!
I loves me some southern justice, even though I'm a white woman with 100% northern ancestry who grew up in Oakland, California.
REASONABLE DOUBT.
I'll ask you one question: Do you think it's POSSIBLE that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and hitting him when he got shot?
I'm not asking you if you're 100% certain that this is how it went down, I'm asking you if given what you know about:
1) Eyewitnesses saying that the two were fighting and that the man on top was beating the man on the bottom,
2) Ballistics evidence that says that Trayvon was on top,
3) Wounds to Zimmerman's head and face and scrapes on Trayvon's knuckles,
4) Rachel Jeantel saying that she thought Trayvon was laying down an "ass whoopin" (which is character testimony),
5) Trayvon's pants knees and Zimmerman's back being wet when the cops got there,
and
6) A man screaming for help on the 911 call,
Do you think it's POSSIBLE that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and hitting him when he got shot?
It's a yes or no question. Yes or no?
yeah, yeah, yeah, 
can't any of those 'facts' be a lie. Like I said, you got your wiggle room, keep wiggling. I doubt if you'll ever see the light.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)
I don't believe that TM deserved a bullets in his heart. I don't believe goode, the so-called witness, I believe it was TM screaming, his mother said it was him, The wounds to zimPIG were superficial to say the least, jeantel said a typical teenage thing.....oh what's the use. You have your mind made up from the minute you sat down in the public jurors box. Fine. I also LISTENED TO THE SHAM TRIAL. I know I am right thusly I won't waste anymore time on you. 'thou protesteth too much".
brush
(53,784 posts)to whether zimmerman lied about the 20-30 head bashes, or the 35-45 punches to the face, or the alleged smothering of his mouth and nose without any of his dna being on Martin's body?
You want to go down a list of bogus claims and botched police department evidence, answer our questions about zimmerman's huge lies that anyone who is BIASED can see are nothing but lies?
John2
(2,730 posts)or source, that Jeantel said what you claim under oath? I heard none of what you claim in her testimomy.
I know you asked another Poster, but what position Trayvon was in has no relevance, when a person is fighting off an attacker for their life. Especially a person with a loaded gun pointed at you.
1.) only one eyewitness made that claim (John Good). No other witnesses saw what John Good saw.
2) Trayvon was on top when Zimmerman shot him. Zimmerman could have held him in place while he shot him.
Let me give you a scenario. Zimmerman could have snuck up oh Trayvon while he was talking with Jeantel and grabbed Trayvon with his gun in one hand, to restrain him for an arrest. They could have ended up on the ground with Trayvon screaming get off me and then calling for help. Zimmerman could have got injured in that scuffle with Trayvon trying to fight him off.
He shot Trayvon at close proximity and in the chest. The screams stopped as soon as the shot was heard and it sounded like somebody was in severe pain when they get shot. Yiu ever seen somebody get shot or die from an accident? I've seen people and animals die unnatural causes when the last breath is leaving their body. That last scream sounded like that. Like a person was shot.
It was reported Trayvon Martin didn't die right away. You think Trayvon would have said what Zimmerman claims in severe pain the way he was? That is the Depraved Heart evidence from George Zimmerman and how he responded after taking someone's life.
I would have voted him guilty of murder period from the evidence known. There is no way that you can convince me this guy was fighting for his life when he killed this kid in cold blood. He had a depraved heart when he first noticed him and he carried out that ill will when he killed this kid. And like Jeantel claimed, Trayvon Martin didn't know Zimmerman or had any desire to know or kill Zimmerman. Unfortunately Zimmerman crossed his path that night.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)brush
(53,784 posts)I just don't get it. And on a progressive site. Your bias is so obvious it's astounding.
brush
(53,784 posts)
Aquavit
(488 posts)There's no history of race-based violence, and certainly no potential for racial biases, there. No, sir!
1) Did the eye witnesses say the black man was on top? Who are these eye witnesses?
2) Even if this wasn't just made up and convincingly presented to a jury of people, some of whom may be may not have been completely impartial and AFAIK none of whom were experts in ballistics themselves, I am not going to accept that Trayvon Martin should have just allowed himself to be tackled and executed.
3) These wounds and scrapes could have been produced after the fight (but that kind of thing NEVER happens, does it?), but even if they weren't I don't accept that Trayvon Martin should have just submitted and allowed himself to be executed.
4) Extremely weak. Ms. Jeantel would have had zero idea of what was really happening, as she wasn't there.
5) See #3.
6) "A man?" Really? Is George Zimmerman the only man in the world who could have been screaming in the vicinity during the altercation? "A man" could have been my dad, or Jerry Seinfeld, or Elton John, or just about anyone else. It could even have been Trayvon Martin!
To answer your question, even if it was possible that Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman when the shooting happened, are you suggesting that Martin should have just let Zimmerman attack and kill him with no fight at all?
secondwind
(16,903 posts)back of his pants. How can that be?
I've seen photo of Zimmerman taken 45 minutes after the killing... and he looks perfectly normal.... no swollen nose, nothing. How can that be?
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)When in fact, there could have another. The same would have happened if GZ had grabbed his shirt and shot. Which is interesting as they found GZ DNA on his shirt below where he had been shot. They did not have a crime scene that was preserved. Why did GZ move Trayvon?. So no one would know where he shot him?? Or how? There are no witnesses to the shooting. I got reasonable doubt all right. GZ was one lying MF. I think it is possible GZ was on top of Martin. Or he was shot standing up. I'll assume there was no exit wound.
As for Oakland-SO WHAT. I am from Oakland as well and racism is alive and "well" in Oakland.
Ghost of Tom Joad
(1,355 posts)rather then leg or arm, hell even a warning shot
Pelican
(1,156 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Pelican
(1,156 posts)In a fight in a populated area where should he fire a "warning shot?"
Anywhere other than Martin includes the air (bullets come down again), into the street (which can ricochet) or into the myriad of homes surrounding him. Remember that this would be on his back with Martin on top of him...
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)He started this so he should have tried to end it peacefully.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)Great plan...
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Pelican
(1,156 posts)Either the threat is credible enough to warrant being fired at or it isn't. Nothing in between.
I think it's better that a legitimate threat is targeted than a stray round goes into someone's home or another person.
I say again, warning shots are bullshit. They are dangerous, unethical and illegal. Talk to that woman in Florida who got 20 years for firing warning shots into a house with her boyfriend and kids.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)brush
(53,784 posts)Why is that so hard for you to understand. Did you bother to look at the links I sent at all.
The huge whopper of getting head bashed 20-30 times on concrete alone should have convinced any jury that wasn't predisposed to perform their racist duty in a racist county, to find zimmerman guilty as charged.
populistdriven
(5,644 posts)
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)who have raised teenagers. I found Trayvon's friend to be a very a honest witness who used the language of a typical teen. Z on the otherhand changed his story many times to suit his agenda for self defense.
btw a little ray of hope is that I'm not the only 60 plus white woman who sees it this way.
populistdriven
(5,644 posts)
produce an article or source where Rachel Jeantel claimed that about Trayvon taking the first swing and she thought Trayvon was roundly kicking Zimmerman's ass?
L listened to her testimony on the stand and that is not what I heard her say. I heard her say that Trayvon thought he lost Zimmerman and he appeared again. She claimed Trayvon asked him why he was following him and Zimmerman said what are you donig around here.
She didn't say anything about Trayvon throwing any punch, but heard scuffling and the wet grass. She also claimed that she thought she heard Trayvon saying Get off me. So where did you get that from?
You are claiming Rachel Jeantel claimed Trayvon Martin started the fight? I do remember something along the lines, that she called the defense attorney retarded for thinking along those lines, because Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman like that.
You have made serveral assertions which conflicts your statement defending Trayvon Martin.
I'm surprised nobody has shown the article fromm CNN describing the real Trayvon Martin from the people that knew him the most.
Do you believe everything a kid claims they did on twitter or facebook? If he got in all these fights and beat up all these people, where is the evidence and the people he did this too? You claiming that Trayvon Martin got into all these fights, with no complaints, or even injuries. No criminal records of assaults what so ever. Now we are talking about a teenage kid that just turned 17 years old. You wouldn't believe some of the things teens say on twitter to their friends. So you would believe anything they say?
The bottomline, that is just pure hearsay and not a real criminal record of violence attributed to Zimmerman or evidence like actual witnesses and victims.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I know she's saying different things than she said in the trial.
Unca Jim
(556 posts)your honesty and rational argument.
I am angry at Zimmerman, too, but I can see how he got off.
brush
(53,784 posts)his huge lies.
I'd have to say that anyone (juror) who believes a person can get up and walk away from 20-30 head bashes on concrete, 35-45 punches to the face and nose and mouth smothering without any dna or blood evidence on the attacker has to be one of the stupidest or most bias people on the earth.
Want proof? Check out these tow links, one of what happens when a human head gets bashed against concrete (just once mind you, not the 20-30 times that zimmy lied about), and the second one shows photos of what people look like after getting beat up like zimmy claimed Martin did to him.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023254619
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3306770
After viewing these links any reasonable intellegent person would know that zimmerman was lying. That is why I say the jurors were bias and predisposed to do their racist duty in a racist county or they are some of the stupidest people walking.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)If GZ really got his head bashed, I am surprised he did not have a concussion.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)with reasonable doubt is that it assumes everyone is capable of using reason. As many have proven, even on DU, they cannot. Keep up the good fight.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)trying to capture a criminal who got it into his warped mind that Trayvon was that criminal that he was determined to capture to prove that he was a 'man'.
To try to imply that Trayvon was a well developed all around athlete is disingenuos to say the least. He was a tall skinny undeveloped boy. It was not fully established whether Trayvon smacked Zimmerman on first contact, many believe that he hit Zimmerman when Trayvan was on the ground after being thrown to the ground by Zimmerman in his zest to retain Trayvon from getting away. Even a woman can hit hard enough to give a man a bloody nose.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,123 posts)"and banged your head on the ground. He didn't even know how to box"
'The Birdcage' was on HBO Friday night and this line stuck out like a sore thumb. The scene where Robin Williams character is confronted by a very TALL man who Williams insists on insulting. Then there's a cut to this linked conversation. The banging the head on the ground was a joke in this film - which took place in Florida. Had Williams character had a gun, I gather he could have killed the guy, no questions asked.
The Birdcage quotes
http://www.subzin.com/quotes/The+Birdcage/and+banged+your+head+on+the+ground.+He+didn%27t+even+know+how+to+box
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)His last words that jentel heard were "get off me", to me zimmy tried to place trayvon into custody and git popped in the face for it.
you're right about advocating for the devil(s). advocate on, your right as a free amerikkkan.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Not every altercation between a white person (or an honorary white person) and a black person is like the Emmett Till or Reginald Denny cases.
And I agree.
Which isn't to say that racism and prejudice don't exist in our country, in case anybody wants to think that's what I meant. I don't.
But, like you, I suppose, I have to wonder about why it seems that every single altercation involving whites and a minority ends up with the white person being in the wrong.
Maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe I haven't been in the right threads at the right time to see anything different...
But any thread I've ever seen here involves some evil racist white person victimizing a minority. Sometimes the outrage erupts due to a newspaper/internet article that doesn't even tell the other side of the story.
People get one side and automatically assume that it's 100% accurate.
Because a black/brown/green/blue/tan/polka dotted person would NEVER lie, whereas white people are notorious, lying, pieces of shit.
I often wonder what the atmosphere would have been here at DU if it had been around during the OJ Simpson trial and verdict. Would people be willing to see him as a murdering bastard, or would he barely get a mention because people would be afraid of looking like "racists"...
And one more thing...it's disturbing to see how often people throw the label of "racist" around at others. At people they don't even know, just because they don't agree with them. Like the jurors in the Zimmerman case. Nobody can ever know what's in their hearts, but from the looks of things around here the past week or so, one could certainly think the place is full of psychics and mind readers.
brush
(53,784 posts)Somebody lied and it certainly wasn't Martin because he's dead.
I can't understand why people, and the jurors, would believe a proven liar (to a judge, in court, about his finances and passport) and admitted killer who had every motivation to say anything to keep his ass out of jail.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)that night...only gravely wounded instead... do you really think he would be telling the whole truth on the stand?
Something about him specifically that makes you think he'd lie?
brush
(53,784 posts)zimmy has every motivation to lie, like keeping his ass out of jail where the cons would be waiting for him, having heard about him killing an unarmed teen.
They don't take kindly to that. And zimmerman is a proven liar in court to a judge about his finances, and also about his passport.
He's a killer trying to stay out of jail for what he did. I don't see how anyone could possibly believe that how he says things happened is how it happened.
not fooling me.geez
"not fooling" you?
Sorry. Don't know what you mean by that.
If you want to have a serious discussion, then please explain.
Maraya1969
(22,482 posts)No one really knows how it happened.
SaveAmerica
(5,342 posts)that would have helped them out a lot. That kind of bird's eye info is valuable.
And that is sarcasm.
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)which still doesn't deserve an on the spot death penalty.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)It's very disheartening.
Rex
(65,616 posts)nevermind...your attempts at stirring up shit have failed. Why do you continue? Just like picking on a dead kid?
And then there are those that will shit upon the realities this picture suggests.
I once respected your posts, tomorrow I'll add you to my (short) ignore list.
Pelican
(1,156 posts)Pure 100% emotional "the way I feel it went down" bullshit...
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I hope he always fears to walk down the street and has to always looks always his shoulder and sleep with one eye open.
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)Trayvon Martin did NOTHING wrong.
Zimmerman created the situation and should have stayed in his car.
Zimmerman should reap what he has sown.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)
ornotna
(10,801 posts)You stated that he did. So, which is it?
no answer???!!! Why doesn't that surprise me. No answerer is
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Very common sense that travyvon did not swing first. Did he deserve to die. No. Did he have a right to suspicious of Zim. Yes.
But looking at everything. It's pretty hard to believe Zim swung first. Lets say Zim had the gun out. Lets say Zim was chasing him. Lets sat Trayvon truly feared for his life.
I can't believe he would then swing first. I'm not saying all of Zim's story holds water, but I do believe whatever happened, the first blow was to Zim's nose. Trayvon blasted his ass. And one could argue rightfully so. Unfortunatley, Trayvon took fists to a gun fight.
And that's why it's better to just vacate the situation.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)understand vacancy. The emptiness on this site, a supposedly liberal and progressive site, is truly disheartening. But given that this is an amerikkkan site, not surprised.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)No place is th progressive sphere.
I know you aren't.
But you are saying that if we don't walk lock step then...
heaven05
(18,124 posts)not saying that at all. There are different takes on the truth and common sense. Yours is yours, and mine is mine. Mine just happens to be correct since I have faced white racism and hate many more times in my years as an amerikkkan citizen than you. This case stinks to high heaven, reeks with racial hate, animus and murder.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)And what's your argument, "you have your side and I have mine, the only difference is I'm right".
Sheesh. Too bad the prosecution didn't have yyyou
heaven05
(18,124 posts)right, and I know my take on you is right. Period.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine it is somewhat self-serving to conflate "common sense" and "my opinion"
lumpy
(13,704 posts)The whole idea that someone threw the 'a first blow' was a tactic used to bring forth a defense plea. Trayvon could have thrown the 'first blow' to Zimmermans nose while on the ground defending himself, Zimmerman could have thrown Trayvon down when he thought Trayvon was going to walk away, because he didn't buy Zimmermans attempt to 'arrest' him.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)"Trayvon could have thrown the 'first blow' to Zimmermans nose while on the ground defending himself"
Your scenario still makes Trayvon the aggressor.
It's like this. I call you a mother)*#¥~+~. Right. And you punch me in the face. That makes you the aggressor even though I started the verbal fight.
It's not my rule.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)Good grief ! In the act of defending myself against someone who has thrown me to the ground holding me down; I don't have the right to hit that someone ?
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Which makes me think fundamentally we probably agree.
You said
"The whole idea that someone threw the 'a first blow' was a tactic used to bring forth a defense plea. Trayvon could have thrown the 'first blow' to Zimmermans nose while on the ground defending himself, Zimmerman could have thrown Trayvon down when he thought Trayvon was going to walk away, because he didn't buy Zimmermans attempt to 'arrest' him."
---
So in your scenario Zim is the aggressor because he "first put hands on" and yes I Trayvon reActed by blasting him in the nose then yes, Zim is the aggressor and Trayvon the defender. Even if Trayvon began whipping the shit out of Zim afterward, Zim would still be the aggressor.
So it goes back to who acted first. Well based on the evidence and conjecture I think Trayvon was the physical aggressor. I'm sorry that's what I think. I'm not saying I'm right. And I'm damn sure not saying Trayvon "deserved what he got" (quotes for effect). The reason I do believe what I believe is because I'm friggin positive Zim has never been on a real fight before and furthermore has never lost one.
No knock on Trayvon at all, but I think he has been in a fight before. And I don't think we was scared of Zim. I think he was going to teach him a lesson. Maybe even one Zim deserved. But trayvon was a kid. And sometimes kids don't think the matter through. Like, maybe this creepy cracka has a gun.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)Z's nose didn't look like it came from a punch. It looked more like a head butt from someone on the bottom. I raised three boys and have seen the results of both types of blows. Z's nose looked nothing like my middle boys nose after being punched and more like my older boys nose after being head butted.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Not to give a smart ass response.
Their.
Done.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)We are indeed all speculating to what took place that night. I gave an honest take on it, based on my experience in raising three boys. My middle boy actual did receive a broken nose while taking a gun from another man. He was 19 at the time. My oldest was head butted during a wrestling match. Both incidents and the results are still very vivid in my memory.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Sometimes I'm a little high and mighty before I have my coffee.
Not to take anything away from your theory which is plausible. Why do you think the prosecution never offered those kinds of theories.
And what actually happened is the prosecution conceded quite a bit to much of Zim's story
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)to contain and preserve the crime scene from the beginning. Unfortunately they did not and we only have one side of the story.
I think the prosecution was more concerned with protecting the police departments failures, since how they handled it was not important to them. A lot of mistakes were made during the first hours of the investigation (or non-investigation) that could have told more of the victims side. Proper forensics and evidence collection can be a powerful voice for those who are no longer able to speak
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)The crime scene investigation was handled less than expertly to the detriment of both sides.
As to the prosecution protecting the police. Who knows? These are real people who prosecute and work with police everyday. I'm not ready to go cahoots conspiracy yet. However I do think they knew they had a virtually unwinnable case. Prosecuter a generally only go trial when they know they can win otherwise they hang some heavy bluffs and try to get the defendant to plea (which frankly is a crime in and of itself IMO)
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)It is not at all uncommon for DA's to play down or ignore mistakes made during an investigation by the police department. Especially if it serves no purpose in strengthening their case. The DA's office would be wise to investigate why this department failed to conduct a proper investigation at the start, if only to prevent future mishandling. It is not the job of our police departments to decide which evidence is important or whether or not a crime has been committed. Sadly this is not a perfect world and it happens all to often in regards to crimes against minorities, gays and women.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Because I thought that was your allusion.
I don't know what the state attorneys office would investigate since the police investigators involved were prosecution witnesses.
It also wouldn't surprise me that the SA clams up and runs away from this case because the IT guy they fired is filing a whistleblower lawsuit against them
As to the police role. They are law enforcement. It is their role to determine if a crime has been committed but since the system is not perfect. The SA/DA can convene a grand jury on its own as a safeguard. But that didn't happen here either. We got a special prosecutor who worked unilaterally and charged something really no one thought they could get.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)Gz as well? Why given your logic, you would have to convict GZ as he did not walk away and then committed murder. For all I know, since there was no DNA on TM, his nose job was self-inflicted to bolster his self-defense claim.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)As to Trayvon's or Zim's burden to walk away. They both had that burden. They both could have defused the situation. Both were looking for trouble. Both of them found it.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)An adult has a higher degree of responsibility and experience. It is not reasonable to hold them to the same standards.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)I agree we should hold a 28 year old to higher standard of doing what's right. But I'm not sure the law does in this regard. And I'm also not sure the real world did that night.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)GZ was looking to create it.
brush
(53,784 posts)Check out these two links. One of what happens when an actual human head bashes concrete just once (not the alleged 20-30 times zimmy claimed happened to him), and the second of what beating victims actually look like (remember zimmerman claimed to have been slugged 35-45 times by Martin).
Check out the links and then tell me you still think zimmerman was telling the truth.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023254619
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3306770
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Internet pictures of which have no real context or knowledge. Specifically the second link. So if I can't take Zim at his word why would I take some random photos to be truth as well.
That said, if you've read my other posts. You might understand that we fundamentally agree.
brush
(53,784 posts)have been able to see the huge lies that were part of zimmerman's story.
I believe they were predisposed to find him innocent and Martin guilty (TM was really the one put on trial), and they did their racist duty in a racist county. And the thing of it is, they probably don't even realize that what they did is racist.
How do you let a proven liar and killer go free when there was no doubt that he was lying?
The "reasonable doubt" argument should have been rendered moot by zimmerman's obvious lies.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)But I think you are just as predisposed as your claim that six woman, five of them mothers chosen from a random lot.
Good luck to you
brush
(53,784 posts)He was the one killed. Justice didn't prevail. From your posts I think in your heart (being a blue state New Yorker and all) you know that but feel you have to fall back on the "reasonable doubt" argument when you really should just admit that the jury failed miserably.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)And the actors failed to defuse the situation
I appreciate your acknowledgement of my heart. Because yes, I l'm sorry Trayvon's dead. I'm also sorry people have let their rage get the best of their intellect or just plain common sense. (That is not a swipe at you directly, but is a larger generalization)
And yes I'm sorry you feel this was a witch hunt or a witch saving or something. Like they were all blinded but some how together.
I just don't see it. I'm not saying the world or country is without racism. Yes, it's rampant. You're from New York. Want to see segregation just go to east 96 street or west 115 or Atlantic ave in Brooklyn or Jamaica ave. New York City is one of the pat segregated cities I've ever seen. And that's saying a lot since I come from a city divided by race via a river
brush
(53,784 posts)You're right, the prosecution failed, but so did the AG with overcharging, and so did the cops with their botched performance on the night of the murder, and so did the judge with several of her rulings against evidence being allowed, and ultimately with her jury instructions.
I still say the jury should have seen through zimmerman's lies. How do you let a killer go if you know he's lying?
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Because you have a reasonable doubt. It doesn't mean we have to agree, but it's done
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)But reasonable doubt none the less with respect to the statutes
heaven05
(18,124 posts)do you know? Were you there? You should have offered yourself up as a witness. My mind is boggled!!!!!!
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)and that's what she said she thought happened.
with CatWoman on the zimPIG apologists. 
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I think he's a little banty-cock who had something to prove.
I'm saying that Rachel Jeantel said that she thought that Trayvon threw the first punch.
It's not what a lot of people here want to believe, but she knew him better than anyone and she thought it was in character for him.
John2
(2,730 posts)to agree with you, because she did not say the things she said in this interview under oath. Did she tell Martin's parents, lawyers and the prosecution that? I'm not going to be so easy on her. She seemed very reluctant to talk before and during the case but all of a sudden appearing on these shows and talking now with no trouble.
My point all along was There was no evidence Trayvon had circled back and attacked Zimmerman. Now she is essentially claiming he did that and wasn't afraid of Zimmerman. She could have saved everybody a lot of trouble if she is claiming that now. She should have told the Martins' that and the lawyers. If that evidence would have been presented to me like that, I would have voted not guilty.
John2
(2,730 posts)I don't think that is necessarily true. What was she at the time, 18 years old and Trayvon had just turned 17? His mother and father didn't even know her. Didn't she claim Trayvon made friends with her and treated her like nobodyelse did?
She didn't say what she claims in that interview on the stand. If she had said that on the stand, then Trayvon would have became the aggressor because he showed no fear of Zimmerman. She didn't state that to the Martins,their Lawyers, or the prosecutors. She didn't state that on the stand under oath either.
She stated that Trayvon claimed he was trying to get away from Zimmerman. Not only that, she claimed that Trayvon saw him and asked him what are you following me for and Zimmerman responded What are you doing around here. She then stated she heard them scuffling and the sound of wet grass, with Trayvon saying get off me.
Now she is stating Trayvon claimed that he had to take care of something and she didn't hear anything from Trayvon after that? She is also claiming that she believe Trayvon threw the first punch and it was a Black thing? You see what I mean by her?
What makes her any different than juror B37? To me she acted like she didn't want to get involved and Trayvon's mother had to basically beg her to find out what happened to her son. She didn't attend the funeral of her best friend and everybody accepted her excuse. She was very evasive of Mrs Martin when she tried to see her and just sent her a letter written by another person. She didn't act like she wanted to testify at the trial and wasn't very helpful to the prosecution but the defense ate her up. Now I'm just being honest because she was the most important witness for the prosecution. She should have been ready to testify, but she gave many people the impression that she just didn't care.
Now they are inviting her to all these shows and one of them even offered her a scholarship. She is not having any problem appearing on them and having these interviews. Like I said I know the streets and middle upper class society in America. On the streets, they call it being played. Because Miss Jeantel is dead wrong! That is not a Black thing! I don't know where she gets that from?
There is a difference from a 16 year old boy just turning 17 and and 18 year old woman. The difference is, she is able to vote, marry, and join the military. She is able to get a job and provide for herself. She can also have an influence on an impressionable young kid also.
Trayvon Martin bragged about getting into all these fights on social media accounts, but there is no such evidence of that in reality. Trayvon had other friends like coaches, teammates and teachers, that portrayed him differently than Miss Jeantel. According to their portrayal of him, he wasn't violent at all. So her belief is he turned back and put a whipass on Zimmerman because that was a Black thing? That doesn't help Trayvon Martin at all.
brush
(53,784 posts)I don't remember her saying TM threw the first punch. She testified that TM said "Get off me", which means zimmerman put his hands on him.
That I remember. And if some stranger puts his hands on you after stalking you, you have every right to retaliate. Wouldn't you say?
And as far as you not being a zimpig, you couldn't tell it by me. You sound like one of the worst.
And by the way, I keep posting these links that prove zimmy was lying but you never mention them in your pro-zimmy responses.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023254619
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3306770
What's up with that?
straws you're grabbing at? Won't hold you up.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)The difference between you and me is you believe one thing and I just think the other
heaven05
(18,124 posts)said I was. Common sense is one thing........in this whole tragedy that is missing and wholly lacking in some segments of our culture/populace represented here. You're right, we do disagree.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)You based your tantrum on my being there or not and when the question is put back to you it's irrelevant?
Nice.
Next!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)tantrum or not, why always trying to make yourselves so logical, objective and without emotion. I am glad that I have feelings. Individuals like you....whew!!!!!!! 
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)There is NO proof of that at all. Quit spreading lies and defaming a dead child.
brush
(53,784 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)They just didn't find any blood belonging to Zim
And
I can't remember the alleged 20-30 cement blows or the 35-45 punches. But that doesn't mean anything other than I don't remember the numbers.
I do rember the prosecution starting the trial alledging Zim was on top of Trayvon ten conceding it
brush
(53,784 posts)And zimmerman is on tape claiming to have been head bashed 20-30 times and punched 35-45 times.
Come on. You have to know those are lies if you followed those link of people actually beaten, and head bashed on concrete just once.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)That Trayvon had scratches on his knuckles.
Funny little things the facts are. They are things that actually happened.
Don't get me wrong. The kid did not deserve to die.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)1. Who threw the first punch, turning a 'following/stalking' issue into a physical fight.
2. That the scratch was received by impacting Zimmerman's face, or any part of him.
3. That Zimmerman did nothing to instigate a valid self-defense physical response from Trayvon, like brandishing his gun.
4. That the scratch is not, in fact, a defensive wound.
etc.
You keep using 'scratches', plural. Why? It's one scratch. One scratch on one knuckle is not plural.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)It's part of the evidence collection.
My response was to post 38. If you are such a stickler for accuracy, then I think we can find some common ground to my posts
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Typo? That's entirely outside this thread fork.
I'm not entirely sure what's going on now.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)I just read (for the most part) the 22 page autopsy report from wftv.com
No mention of any scratches?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I could have sworn it came up during the trial, but perhaps it was outside commentary, re-raising something that was claimed much earlier than the beginning of the trial.
(I recall a variety of claims about his hands prior to the trial)
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)I missed the ME testimony though
brush
(53,784 posts)One scratch on one knuckle on a little finger (that's what was in the ME report not "scratches" like you exaggerated).
And you admit that you think that would be the only mark on a person's hands who slugged someone 35-45 times and held a grown man's head forcefully enough to bash said head 20-30 times on concrete? Oh, and all the while smothering his nose and mouth?
If you believe that crapola why you belong on that jury. And also, oh gullible one, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Williamsburg?
Manhattan?
Gowanus?
Kosciusko?
brush
(53,784 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)And it's in Queens
brush
(53,784 posts)And it'll still be called the 59th St or Queensboro just as Avenue of the Americas is called 6th by most New Yorkers.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Thanks.
brush
(53,784 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)n
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Snip-
The Jury will see Trayvon Martin's Autopsy Report that describes, in intricate detail, the physical appearance of Trayvon Martin as he appeared after Zimmerman killed him. The Jury will see that the Autopsy report shows Trayvon had "a 1/4" x 1/8" small abrasion on the left fourth finger." The Jury will also see that the Autopsy does not mention any: blood, dirt, defensive wounds or offensive wounds on Trayvon Martin's knuckles, palms, wrists, fingers or thumbs -- which dispels Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon punched him in the nose 25-30 times, covered his nose and mouth while at the same slamming his head into the sidewalk over a dozen times.
---
The point is. Everyone is getting their information from places all over the place and then getting it wrong while other people are taking it as truth and getting pretty upset based on what they think, but not what they know.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)above
brush
(53,784 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)But there is very little in life, love and law this is fully determine to everyone's satisfaction.
Even a murderer is entitled to the threshold of reasonable doubt. Not fully determined
Deuce
(959 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Deuce
(959 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)But you're dodging.
Deuce
(959 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)You did. I just said (err typed it)
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Exactly what are you advocating
Deuce
(959 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Do you think trayvon was murdered?
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Make it so.
Skittles
(153,164 posts)he never gave a damn about Trayvon - his only distress was because he was called out for being a racist, gun humping killer
0rganism
(23,955 posts)...someone who carries a gun and has been judged (best case scenario - correctly) to have killed in self defense being perpetually on edge, thinking everyone he passes on the street to be out to get him? Remember, all he has to do to claim self defense in court is make the claim that he "felt his life was in danger", and was "standing his ground." How many more people will he kill if your scenario comes to pass?
demmiblue
(36,860 posts)
asjr
(10,479 posts)over what Zimmerman told everyone. Trayvon could not tell what really happened. I really think the fix was in.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)geez
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Sure seems like it.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)So who fixed it and why, oh beacon of brilliance?
brush
(53,784 posts)Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)beautifully put.
mountain grammy
(26,623 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)
mzmolly
(50,994 posts) Eddie Haskell
(1,628 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)diverts from the real issues, imo.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)It's visual art. Not news reporting.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)demagoguery.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I feel all the zimPIG apologists/logicists on this site have had a hand in that type of thinking/postulation this trial and verdict. Yep you should know. I bet you that's true. Oh and by the way, great picture!!!!!! Norman Rockwellish!!!!!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)was black.
doesn't mean the picture here isn't demagogic.
ananda
(28,865 posts)Wow!
dusty trails
(174 posts)
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)
indepat
(20,899 posts)
Joe Hyperion
(58 posts)Interesting shift.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)ArtandResponse.com Lot of out and out racists making statements though. Really stupid people trying to to show intelligence and not being able to pull it off. Somewhat like the usual suspects here. I'm definitely going to get some posters, stickers and a large tshirt for this hot weather.
intheflow
(28,476 posts)One was 50 years ago, with grown-ups protecting a child against hatred. And this one, with grown-ups killing a child with hatred. I'm devastated to think how far we've regressed.
cigsandcoffee
(2,300 posts)intheflow
(28,476 posts)But the hatred is real, and perennial. What seems to be fleeting is the child protection.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)
Catherina
(35,568 posts)
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)
arthritisR_US
(7,288 posts)
