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FreakinDJ

(17,644 posts)
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:00 AM Jul 2013

Retired Detroit firefighter: "My pension is what I was promised"

For nearly 30 years, Larry Newberry risked his life to put out fires in Detroit.

Now, the city could slash the pension he depends on as it seeks to shed its debts through bankruptcy.

Newberry, 65, said he responded to at least three to four blazes a day as building and car fires ravaged the city. He suffered several injuries that led to his needing hand reconstruction and knee and hip replacements. After he retired in 1994, he worked for Procter & Gamble as a retail merchandiser, but now can no longer hold down a job.

The Traverse City, Mich., resident lives on his $34,000 annual pension, which is subject to federal and state taxes, and a $200-a-month Social Security payment. Since Detroit firefighters didn't participate in Social Security, his federal check is based only on his time in the private sector.


http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/19/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-pension-firefighter/index.html?iid=EL


They will go after Working Class Pensions but they will never make the Wall St. Banks pay for what they have done to the economy
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Retired Detroit firefighter: "My pension is what I was promised" (Original Post) FreakinDJ Jul 2013 OP
Silly prole, promises are only for the 1% n2doc Jul 2013 #1
When people wake up to this fact, maybe thngs will start to change. (nt) enough Jul 2013 #10
How will they wake up abelenkpe Jul 2013 #58
And there you go. This is it in a nutshell.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #52
The pensions were part of the pay. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #76
Yep, that is it exactly. Those pensions that the state is trying to renege on..... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #93
sorry to say sweetapogee Jul 2013 #113
except the state is not the security for a city debt ceonupe Jul 2013 #94
And what kind of "more sustainable" system would that be? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #121
+1 Blue_Tires Jul 2013 #122
The pension is what he EARNED! Taking it is theft. It's his. He EARNED it. It was part of his pay SharonAnn Jul 2013 #62
Possession is 9/10ths of the law, and the rich can buy the last 10% n2doc Jul 2013 #66
+1 nt Live and Learn Jul 2013 #108
Is this like contribtion to Social Security? question everything Jul 2013 #123
+1,000,000. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #85
+ A billion or so. The bankers couldn't be denied their fat bonus because they'd been promised them, Dark n Stormy Knight Jul 2013 #97
Pension obligations trump bondholders under Michigan Constitution alcibiades_mystery Jul 2013 #2
Thanks for this. I had no idea. Brickbat Jul 2013 #4
Some are trying to slip pension reductions past the constitutional goalie in Illinois, too. Gidney N Cloyd Jul 2013 #15
Constitution may NOT protect detroit's pensions etherealtruth Jul 2013 #22
The point is not that protection of the pensions is absolute alcibiades_mystery Jul 2013 #27
I understand that etherealtruth Jul 2013 #32
Question about this: if pensioners are 'unsecured' creditors, wouldn't their claims take HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #36
ding ding ceonupe Jul 2013 #95
No, protection of pensioners and wage earners remains under the law Yo_Mama Jul 2013 #41
Thank you for more info! etherealtruth Jul 2013 #42
It is up to the bankruptcy judge. former9thward Jul 2013 #54
Only if the Bankrutcy Judge rules the State has agreed to the filing happyslug Jul 2013 #100
I think it is safe to say the state has agreed to this filing. former9thward Jul 2013 #115
No, I believe the Judge is Correct, the State can NOT agree. happyslug Jul 2013 #120
A pension is a deferred payment that, increasingly, was meant to make up for cuts or freezes in Brickbat Jul 2013 #3
Yep. I also said this in the second paragraph of my post #52.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #55
They've been looting our pensions for decades malaise Jul 2013 #5
The feds have been looting Social Security for decades... matthews Jul 2013 #89
Well you see, there's a moral hazard if we take care of individuals TransitJohn Jul 2013 #6
+1 ArcticFox Jul 2013 #43
My liberal sister's ultra conservative husband retired from the air force and then from djean111 Jul 2013 #7
Sometimes I think that conservatives can't be reasoned with... ananda Jul 2013 #24
unfortunately they don't get it until it directly affects them. ejpoeta Jul 2013 #38
Contracts with workers are disposable in the dictatorship of capital.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #56
Your bolder sentence is the key take away JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #8
Yup, that doesn't work out so well.... Historic NY Jul 2013 #18
I'm amazed how many even in the middle and low end of the 99% support screwing pensioners. Gidney N Cloyd Jul 2013 #9
+10000 - ^^ This Guy Gets It ^^ FreakinDJ Jul 2013 #13
I think it's due to the fact that a lot of people don't get pensions -- so they have no sympathy for antigop Jul 2013 #19
I think that's pretty much right. Jackpine Radical Jul 2013 #26
"How come I don't have a pension like that?" antigop Jul 2013 #33
And the answer is FREE TRADE that passed under these pensioner's watch. nt Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #70
Right. Why don't people understand this? JDPriestly Jul 2013 #86
That, and the money to fund government pensions and benefits... Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #69
Bethleham Steel went belly up about the time my dad retired after 35 years with them. Dustlawyer Jul 2013 #11
This happened to my Aunt when BB&T was bought out. She was 72 when they cut her pension. loudsue Jul 2013 #12
How low can they go newfie11 Jul 2013 #14
Doesn't the federal government warrior1 Jul 2013 #16
The PGBC has been gutted through the years. They can fund pennies on the dollar promised, if that. Brickbat Jul 2013 #17
The PBGC is only for private (not public) sector pensions antigop Jul 2013 #21
That law was enacted when the Studebaker car company went out of business and it was byeya Jul 2013 #30
Which is what I get for posting before coffee. Brickbat Jul 2013 #40
We live in edhopper Jul 2013 #20
IMO, this is war Eddie Haskell Jul 2013 #23
No, it's only war when we fight back.... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #57
I meant it as a declaration. Eddie Haskell Jul 2013 #65
I hope to die working on the job because the alternatives don't seem much better nolabels Jul 2013 #73
Yeah, I know you did .... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #96
Having the city steal your pension... Bay Boy Jul 2013 #25
don't mtasselin Jul 2013 #28
And those same congressmen... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #64
pukes may be assholes sweetapogee Jul 2013 #114
I've been kind of taunting a right-wing friend with this kind of story. He's brewens Jul 2013 #29
See post 21. Apparently it's not taxpayer funded. nt SunSeeker Jul 2013 #45
Republicans (and Democrats) *have* been going after the PBGC. It's been underfunded and undermined Brickbat Jul 2013 #48
It's time to renege on all politician pensions. CrispyQ Jul 2013 #31
Pensions in Canada are solid. ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #34
Why can't we do this? :( SummerSnow Jul 2013 #37
WAR ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #49
More like-- it transfers the money... Marr Jul 2013 #74
But if we don't have that military, we can't protect the trade routes that enable our "free trade" JDPriestly Jul 2013 #87
i keep imagining americans as the ones sneaking over the border to get a better life. ejpoeta Jul 2013 #39
This is why laundry_queen Jul 2013 #63
That's how private pensions work but governments are exempt from our pension laws. dkf Jul 2013 #83
Nope - like I said they are solid. ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #106
Never think that. It's absolutely untrue. Heywood J Jul 2013 #90
Ontario has protection, AND Canada Pension IS solid ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #107
"Ontario has two of the strongest pension protections available in Canada." Heywood J Jul 2013 #111
First of all, CPP is over $1200/month and that's on top of any other pension they may have. ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #116
I have two deferred pensions madville Jul 2013 #35
I've never seen golden parachutes cancelled either... n/t EC Jul 2013 #44
Kevin Orr: How much is he making for his role in this? BronxBoy Jul 2013 #46
Student loans are not dischargable but pensions obligations are. SunSeeker Jul 2013 #47
+1 Gidney N Cloyd Jul 2013 #60
+1 gollygee Jul 2013 #61
bs xtraxritical Jul 2013 #50
when you start seeing more of these kinds of people losing their pensions then they southernyankeebelle Jul 2013 #51
I think it is too late..:( Dan Jul 2013 #72
It's heart breaking. southernyankeebelle Jul 2013 #91
Its one thing for businesses to use bankruptcy as a dodge but for the gov't to do it? Peregrine Took Jul 2013 #53
Why is it even legal for people to not participate in Social Security? ShadowLiberal Jul 2013 #59
State and local governments cannot be required to pay into Social Security because duffyduff Jul 2013 #102
Thanks. Learned something new today. (NT) Heywood J Jul 2013 #112
It took me FOREVER to find out the reason why, duffyduff Jul 2013 #118
HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2013 #67
A pension is merely deferred compensation. marew Jul 2013 #68
Too Big To Fail, versus Too Small To Matter. blkmusclmachine Jul 2013 #71
Precisely. JDPriestly Jul 2013 #75
This message was self-deleted by its author darkangel218 Jul 2013 #77
WHAT?! NO, they aren't! SS is for SS, period! Jeepers. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #78
Yah i didnt know. darkangel218 Jul 2013 #79
I thought all pension plans had a federal protection darkangel218 Jul 2013 #81
Wall St isn't getting paid either. No one is getting paid. There is no money, ergo bankruptcy. dkf Jul 2013 #80
You mean like TARP was our decision as taxpayers? Rex Jul 2013 #104
kick Liberal_in_LA Jul 2013 #82
Sorry, Charlie. This is America, and you're not a bank LittleBlue Jul 2013 #84
Kicked and Recommended! nt Enthusiast Jul 2013 #88
This is what gets me. Heywood J Jul 2013 #92
Hey -all your conservative Repukes that keep screaming about how Marie Marie Jul 2013 #98
Only scumbags go after pensions. blackspade Jul 2013 #99
City of Detroit now up for sale on EBay! zencycler Jul 2013 #101
We know which side the govt always favors. Rex Jul 2013 #103
The city should keep its promise wercal Jul 2013 #105
some more equal than others deancr Jul 2013 #109
Animal Farm! ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #117
We all snowball deancr Jul 2013 #119
Just one bonus that one of those crooks on Wall Street deutsey Jul 2013 #110
I just really mstinamotorcity2 Jul 2013 #124

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
58. How will they wake up
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:25 PM
Jul 2013

When corporate owned media monopolies tell the average worker to blame to the poor?
Who is going to break up the monopolies?

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
52. And there you go. This is it in a nutshell....
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:09 PM
Jul 2013

in the dictatorship of capital. Contracts binding workers from striking and taking other actions and contracts protecting "private" property are sacred, but contracts that benefit workers are so much toilet paper.

And I hope everybody realizes that these pensions were negotiated during good times and in good faith and the workers STILL made concessions on wages and other benefits to gain these pensions for their retired and disabled members. But now that it's time to collect, well as I said above, the benefits are toilet paper for the owners.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
76. The pensions were part of the pay.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:43 PM
Jul 2013

The pensions have already been earned. That's money that the government owes to the people who earned the pensions. The government and the employee entered into a contract. The employee has performed his part of the contract. The government has not. The state of Michigan is the security for the City of Detroit or should be viewed as such.

The government should not be allowed by a bankruptcy court to refuse to pay wages in the form of pensions that were earned in the past.

This cannot stand. This is theft, short and simple. The State of Michigan has the money to pay the employees of the cities within its state. And if it doesn't have it, it needs to increase taxes to pay its obligations.

In California, we raised our taxes so that we can meet our obligations. Michigan needs to do the same. Michigan made a lot of money off of the Detroit economy during the good years. It needs to pay the debts of Detroit now.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
93. Yep, that is it exactly. Those pensions that the state is trying to renege on.....
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:23 PM
Jul 2013

were PART OF THE PAY PACKAGE NEGOTIATED. And as I said, the workers gave concession on pay and other benefits to GET those pensions. They signed a contract and so did the state and now the state is trying to weasel out of the contract.

 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
94. except the state is not the security for a city debt
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:23 PM
Jul 2013

you may want it to be that way but the reality is the state is not the guarantor of these agreements/contracts.

The state could step in and lend a hand but i dont see that happening as i dont see the state having the money either unless they tax other residents more.

What i would like to see if possible is a negotiation that lets the pension be spun off and able to borrow funds at the same rate the banks do. Detroit would commit to a min. qtrly contribution. and wind down this system.

New employees need to go into a more sustainable system. i cant believe that no one saw this coming once the population never came back and only decreased year over year.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
121. And what kind of "more sustainable" system would that be?
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 02:06 PM
Jul 2013

Once you are retired and you keep your money in very conservative funds, you will at this time get 1%. (I've checked that with several people. That is the bank rate.) That is lower than inflation. So once you retire, the banks, etc. eat your money. Meanwhile, the investment brokers and stock market managers are getting filthy rich off senior citizens' life savings.

The best alternative is to have one huge pension system -- Social Security that is truly guaranteed by the government.

Let's face it. The problem in the US today is that we are importing cheap goods from the world, offering to secure the trade routes in exchange for the low prices, and impoverishing ordinary people in our country in the process because the productive work is done either by computers or overseas. There are few opportunities for Americans to make money other than selling hamburgers to each other.

Our system is totally corrupt. That is my point of view.

SharonAnn

(13,776 posts)
62. The pension is what he EARNED! Taking it is theft. It's his. He EARNED it. It was part of his pay
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 02:14 PM
Jul 2013

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
66. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, and the rich can buy the last 10%
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 02:30 PM
Jul 2013

This wouldn't be the first, nor the last, time a government has stolen things from people after promising something. Ask any Native American. I'm not saying it is right, and I hope is pension isn't touched, but America has a long history of screwing the less powerful.

question everything

(47,485 posts)
123. Is this like contribtion to Social Security?
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 08:20 PM
Jul 2013

This is what I don't understand. Why are they not eligible for Social Security benefits (and Medicare?). Unless part of their wages was diverted to fund the pensions, like our Social Security and Medicare taxes.

In this case then, yes, this is their money. We always here retiree talking about "their" Social Security money. So these pensions should be considered the same.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
97. + A billion or so. The bankers couldn't be denied their fat bonus because they'd been promised them,
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:10 PM
Jul 2013

but whatever the rest of us have been promised, by supposedly leaglly binding contracts, somehow that can be taken away in the blink of an eye and with about as much concern.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
2. Pension obligations trump bondholders under Michigan Constitution
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:06 AM
Jul 2013
http://mikethemadbiologist.com/2013/07/20/something-to-remember-in-the-coming-arguments-about-the-potential-detroit-bankruptcy/

The journalist is doing the typical thing: taking the bondholders view over that of the pension recipients, regardless of the actual law. Typical of corporate journalism, for which the debt holder is always the first priority pay-out, even where the law explicitly forbids that arrangement, as in Michigan. The journalist is simply wrong here. Paying out bondholders while reducing pension payments is unconstitutional in the state of Michigan.

Gidney N Cloyd

(19,838 posts)
15. Some are trying to slip pension reductions past the constitutional goalie in Illinois, too.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:22 AM
Jul 2013

There are clear protections in place but I worry that Illinois is so corrupt they'll find a way to ignore them.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
22. Constitution may NOT protect detroit's pensions
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:49 AM
Jul 2013

“The federal bankruptcy judge will make a decision,” Attorney General Bill Schuette told The Detroit News Wednesday. He declined to say whether the constitutional protection could — or could not — be pierced in bankruptcy, adding: “There is no doubt the financial hardship that everyone is going to feel is going to be severe.”

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130620/BIZ/306200039#ixzz2ZghdoVXj

The Snyder administration (an administration sworn to uphold Michigan's Constitution) will do everything in it's power to evade constitutional protections for pensioners.
 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
27. The point is not that protection of the pensions is absolute
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:10 AM
Jul 2013

but rather that pensions take priority over bondholders, which is a different point altogether. The article you cite contemplates a reduction in pension benefits due to the bankruptcy. That's possible, to be sure. Whether a federal bankruptcy court can determine that payouts to bondholders take priority over the pension contracts is another question, and one not addressed in the cited article (for good reason: they cannot, except through gross violation of the state constitution).

Bankruptcy requires pay outs in tiers, or rather, cuts off debt in tiers. If you are on the lowest tier, you'll get nothing, next highest, maybe pennies on the dollar, etc. The Michigan constitution simply says that pensions are on a higher tier than debt securities when it comes to determining bankruptcy payments (or cessation of payments). So, pensions might lose some value in the bankruptcy, but that cannot lose value because bondholders gain value. Pensions take priority, but that doesn't mean that they're absolutely protected from bankruptcy judgments.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
32. I understand that
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:36 AM
Jul 2013

The "news" in the area is that the reduction could be as much as $-0.90/ dollar. You are clearly more knowledgeable about bankruptcy law than I.

I have no knowledge r/t to Bankruptcy except what is presented in "news" articles and personal experience (My ex-husband discharge his debts in bankruptcy which ended up with (prior) joint debt being assigned to me despite state court orders in our divorce).

Either way, there is a great potential for large numbers of retired city workers to be impoverished (destitute) because of this.

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
36. Question about this: if pensioners are 'unsecured' creditors, wouldn't their claims take
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:46 AM
Jul 2013

Last edited Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:45 PM - Edit history (1)

a lower priority than those of 'secured' creidtors, i.e., those who loaned money to Detroit with collateral pledged against it (or who bought bonds that were secured with municipal collateral)?

I've been told that Detroit's pensioners are 'unsecured creditors' and that those always take lower precedence than 'secured creditors'.

 

ceonupe

(597 posts)
95. ding ding
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:27 PM
Jul 2013

you are correct.

they are at the front of the line of unsecured creditors. higher than bondholders in most cases unless the city pledged real ssest in ome of its loans/debt/ capital funding drives

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
41. No, protection of pensioners and wage earners remains under the law
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:14 AM
Jul 2013

That doesn't mean pensions won't be cut. The BK court's mission is to divide up assets and cash flows fairly under the law to creditors.

If there isn't sufficient money to pay the pensions, they may be cut.

You have to realize that the ability to raise taxes in Detroit is limited, at best. Take a look at these stats:
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2012/09/detroit_has_half_the_median_in.html

And a literally broader view:
http://www.eurasiareview.com/21072013-detroit-and-the-bankruptcy-of-americas-social-contract-oped/

If you raise taxes too high, the tax base will continue to decline. Detroit has to reach a point at which people and businesses can "buy in", and to accomplish that extra funding to develop businesses, etc, will probably be needed. But the population is dropping fast, so the task is difficult.

People don't have money so property tax collection rates are abysmal:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/99999999/METRO/130221002

Trying to increase income taxes isn't going to do much - you can't collect much income tax from a population base with median household incomes somewhere around 26K. Half the kids in the city are considered to be living in poverty.

More stats from Ezra Klein:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/19/detroits-pension-problems-in-one-chart/


It's probable that there will finally be some cuts to pensions, but any such cuts will occur after losses have been distributed to bondholders. Many bondholders may take close to total losses.

One open question are dedicated-funding bonds, for which the bonds were originally sold as having a dedicated funding stream from a certain revenue source. That will be hashed out in court.

former9thward

(32,016 posts)
54. It is up to the bankruptcy judge.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:13 PM
Jul 2013

This is being handled under the bankruptcy code. Federal law trumpts the state constitution.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
100. Only if the Bankrutcy Judge rules the State has agreed to the filing
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:46 PM
Jul 2013

Last edited Mon Jul 22, 2013, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Chapter 9 of the Bankruptcy Code was originally Chapter IX of the old Bankruptcy Act of 1897 (Chapter IX was added in 1934). That act was ruled to be Unconstitutional for it interfered with how a STATE can regulate its municipalities. In 1938 Congress re-passed Chapter IX, but this time made it clear that a municipality can only file if permitted under State Law. This was approved by the US Supreme Court and was retained when in 1976 when the Present Bankruptcy Code Replaced the old Act.

§ 904. Limitation on jurisdiction and powers of court

Notwithstanding any power of the court, unless the debtor consents or the plan so provides, the court may not, by any stay, order, or decree, in the case or otherwise, interfere with--
(1) any of the political or governmental powers of the debtor;
(2) any of the property or revenues of the debtor; or
(3) the debtor's use or enjoyment of any income-producing property.


The court has ruled "Consent" not only means the consent of the Municipality but that it is permitted under State law. If filing is NOT permitted under State law, the Filing must be dismissed. This follows both Supreme Court Ruling on this issue and the decision of other Bankruptcy Courts.

This is the position the State Court took, that under Michigan Law, local municipality can NOT file Federal Bankruptcy for it is NOT permitted under Michigan law. The Court says this is true even of the State Agreed to Detroit filing the Bankruptcy.

For more details, see City of Stockton et al vs City of Stockton, a 2012 case out of California which goes into the history of Chapter 9 while ruling it could NOT issue a court order to continue Pension payments during the Bankrupcy (But also ruled that the Pension holders did have a claim, just that the Court could NOT enter a Court Order while a plan was bring written):

Side Note: Decision of the Courts of the US are NOT copy-writable, but HOW they are set up for printing, notes etc can be. Thus I tried to remove ALL such notes in the following opinion, leaving only what the Bankruptcy Judge wrote. Since the opinion is NOT copy written it can be printed in full. I left in the Lexis reference numbers.


In re: CITY OF STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA, Debtor. ASSOCIATION OF RETIRED EMPLOYEES OF THE CITY OF STOCKTON, a Nonprofit California Corporation, SHELLEY GREEN, PATRICIA HERNANDEZ, REED HOGAN, GLENN E. MATTHEWS, PATRICK L. SAMSELL, ALFRED J. SIEBEL, BRENDA JO TUBBS, TERI WILLIAMS, on Behalf of Themselves and Others Similarly Situated, Plaintiffs, v. CITY OF STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA, Defendant.

Case No. 12-32118-C-9, Adversary No. 12-2302

UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

478 B.R. 8; 2012 Bankr. LEXIS 3660; 68 Collier Bankr. Cas. 2d (MB) 333; 56 Bankr. Ct. Dec. 250


August 6, 2012, Decided
August 6, 2012, Filed


KLEIN, Bankruptcy Judge:

The retired employees of the City of Stockton want this court to order the City to keep paying for their health benefits during this chapter 9 case. The difficulty is that 11 U.S.C. § 904 forbids the court from using any of its powers to "interfere with" property or revenues of a chapter 9 debtor. Accordingly, although the City's unilateral interim reduction of retiree health benefit payments may lead to tragic hardships for individuals in the interval before their claims are redressed in a chapter 9 plan of adjustment, the motion for injunctive relief must be DENIED. No relief being available and determining that this is an "arising in" core proceeding under 28 U.S.C. § 1334(b) and § 157(b)(2), the adversary proceeding will be DISMISSED.

Procedural Posture

This adversary proceeding was filed as a class action by the Association of Retired Employees of the City of Stockton ("ARECOS&quot and eight retirees on July 10, 2012, together with an Application for Temporary Restraining Order ("TRO&quot or Preliminary Injunction or in the Alternative Relief From Stay.

The retirees contend they have vested contractual rights that are protected from impairment by the Contracts Clause of the United States Constitution, a similar clause in the California Constitution, and by other provisions of California law.

The complaint, the application for injunctive relief, and the supporting papers conspicuously omit reference to § 904, which operates as an anti-injunction statute and bars the court, without the municipality's consent, from interfering with its political or governmental powers, property or revenues, and use or enjoyment of income-producing property..

The court set the TRO/preliminary injunction hearing for July 23, 2012, and ordered the parties to brief the question of the effect of § 904 on this adversary proceeding. It further ordered the City to state whether, as permitted by § 904, it consents to this court resolving the interim health benefit payment dispute. Notice was also given that the court might dismiss the adversary proceeding on its own motion if it concludes that § 904 prevents all of the relief being sought.

At the July 23 hearing, the parties addressed all facets of the adversary proceeding, questions of jurisdiction, and judicial authority. The City did not consent to permit this court to resolve the interim health benefit payment dispute. This decision announces and explains the court's ruling.

Facts

The City of Stockton filed this chapter 9 case on June 28, 2012. The questions of the City's eligibility for chapter 9 relief and whether to order relief are the subject of a separate process progressing under a schedule fixed by the court.

The Stockton City Council adopted a budget for the Fiscal Year commencing July 1, 2012, that, by state law, must be balanced. The required balance was achieved by cutting costs, including unilaterally reducing retiree health benefits.

This adversary proceeding seeks: an injunction prohibiting the City from implementing the retiree health benefit reduction; a declaration that the changes are unlawful; and an order compelling the City to pay for the retiree health benefit for all retirees entitled to it as of July 1, 2012; and attorney fees.1

FOOTNOTES

1 The prayer in the complaint seeks:
1. A temporary, preliminary and permanent injunction prohibiting the City from implementing the changes to the Retiree Health Benefit;

2. A declaration under 28 U.S.C. § 2201 (The Declaratory Relief Act) that the City Retirees have a vested property interest in the Retiree Health Benefit and that the City's proposed changes eliminating the Retiree Health Benefit are unlawful;

3. An order compelling the City to maintain the Retiree Health Benefit with respect to the ARECOS' members and Class Plaintiffs and all other City of Stockton retirees entitled to the Retiree Health Benefit as of July 1, 2012.

4. For an award of reasonable attorney's fees and costs under California Civil Code §§ 1021.5 and 1033.5; California Government Code §§ 800 and 31536; 42 U.S.C. § 1988, and any other statute or rule of law authorizing such an award; and
Complaint, Prayer for Relief (catchall omitted).


For purposes of the present analysis (but without deciding the question), the retiree health benefits are regarded as bargained-for and vested contractual rights.

Persons whose benefits have been reduced may file proofs of claim that must be addressed in a plan of adjustment under the standards prescribed in the Bankruptcy Code for confirming plans.

Discussion

Since the complaint relies on the supposed inability of the City to impair contracts, we begin with basic points of constitutional law and history that give context to the § 904 limitation on the court's authority. Then the focus shifts to how the plaintiffs' due process rights are protected, and thence to the jurisdictional and procedural status of this proceeding.

I

This adversary proceeding is premised at bottom on the Contracts Clause of the United States Constitution: "No State shall ... pass any ... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts." U.S. Const., art. I, § 10, cl. 1.

Counsel clarified in open court that an immutable Contracts Clause is the centerpiece of plaintiffs' case. The first cause of action is: "Impairment of Contract — U.S. Constitution" and alleges that in "unilaterally changing the terms of the Retiree Health Benefit, the City impaired contractual obligations, in violation of Article I section [10] of the United States Constitution and 42 U.S.C. § 1983." Complaint, ¶ 56. The other causes of action flow from that premise.2 The premise is flawed.

FOOTNOTES

2 The second paragraph, of the complaint states the theory:
2. This action seeks a temporary restraining order and declaratory and injunctive relief to stop the City from cutting health insurance premium payments for its retired employees. Termination of these health benefits is unlawful because the benefits are a form of deferred compensation which the City's retirees have already earned; therefore, the retirees have a vested right to these benefits protected by the contract clauses of the United States and California Constitutions. Moreover, if the City is permitted to terminate retiree health benefits as planned, it will immediately endanger the lives of scores of elderly and ill retirees and their dependents who are financially unable to purchase health insurance. This Court's intervention is desperately needed to forestall preventable, imminent harm.
Complaint, ¶2.


While the Contracts Clause is a key navigational star in the firmament of our Constitution and economic universe, it is subject to being eclipsed by the Bankruptcy Clause: "The Congress shall have Power to ... establish ... uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States." U.S. Const., art. I, § 8, cl. 4.

Significantly, the Contracts Clause bans a state from making a law impairing the obligation of contract; it does not ban Congress from making a law impairing the obligation of contract. This asymmetry is no accident.

The Bankruptcy Clause necessarily authorizes Congress to make laws that would impair contracts. It long has been understood that bankruptcy law entails impairment of contracts. Sturges v. Crowninshield, 17 U.S.(4 Wheat.) 122, 191, 4 L. Ed. 529 (1819).

In Sturges, the Supreme Court reasoned that Congress "is expressly vested with the power of passing bankrupt laws, and is not prohibited from passing laws impairing the obligation of contracts, and may, consequently, pass a bankrupt law which does impair it; whilst the states have not reserved the power of bankrupt laws, and are expressly prohibited from passing laws impairing the obligation of contracts." Id.

In 1936, the Supreme Court noted that the "especial purpose of all bankruptcy legislation is to interfere with the relations between the parties concerned — to change, modify, or impair the obligation of their contracts." Ashton v. Cameron Cnty. Water Improvement Dist. No. 1, 298 U.S. 513, 530, 56 S. Ct. 892, 80 L. Ed. 1309 (1936).

Again, in its 1938 decision validating the second municipal insolvency statute, the Court explained that the "natural and reasonable remedy through composition" is not available under state law "by reason of the restriction imposed by the Federal Constitution upon the impairment of contracts by state legislation" but the "bankruptcy power is competent to give relief." Hence, a state, by authorizing a municipality to file a case, legitimately "invites the intervention of the bankruptcy power to save its agency which the State itself is powerless to rescue." United States v. Bekins, 304 U.S. 27, 54, 58 S. Ct. 811, 82 L. Ed. 1137 (1938).

In other words, while a state cannot make a law impairing the obligation of contract, Congress can do so. The goal of the Bankruptcy Code is adjusting the debtor-creditor relationship. Every discharge impairs contracts. While bankruptcy law endeavors to provide a system of orderly, predictable rules for treatment of parties whose contracts are impaired, that does not change the starring role of contract impairment in bankruptcy.

It follows, then, that contracts may be impaired in this chapter 9 case without offending the Constitution. The Bankruptcy Clause gives Congress express power to legislate uniform laws of bankruptcy that result in impairment of contract; and Congress is not subject to the restriction that the Contracts Clause places on states. Compare U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 4, with § 10, cl. 1. Hence, the key premise of the centerpiece of this lawsuit rests on infirm constitutional ground.

The federal bankruptcy power also, by operation of the Supremacy Clause, trumps the similar contracts clause in the California state constitution. U.S. Const. Art. VI, cl. 2; Cal. Const. Art. I, § 9 ("A bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts may not be passed.&quot ; Int'l Bhd. of Elec. Workers, Local 2376 v. City of Vallejo (In re City of Vallejo), 432 B.R. 262, 268-70 (E.D. Cal. 2010), aff'g, 403 B.R. 72, 76-77 (Bankr. E.D. Cal. 2009). For the same reason, the plaintiffs' other theories also fall.

In sum, even if the plaintiffs' benefits are vested property interests, the shield of the Contracts Clause crumbles in the bankruptcy arena.

II

A delicate state-federal relationship of mutual sovereigns in which the Tenth Amendment looms large provides the framework for municipal bankruptcy and gives context to this dispute.

A

A pair of chapter 9 provisions honors state-federal balance by reserving certain state powers and by correlatively limiting the powers of the federal court: 11 U.S.C. §§ 903 and 904.

1

903 reserves to the state the power to control political and governmental powers, as well as expenditures:
§ 903. Reservation of State power to control municipalities

This chapter does not limit or impair the power of a State to control, by legislation or otherwise, a municipality of or in such State in the exercise of the political or governmental powers of such municipality, including expenditures for such exercise, but —

(1) a State law prescribing a method of composition of indebtedness of such municipality may not bind any creditor that does not consent to such composition; and

(2) a judgment entered under such a law may not bind a creditor that does not consent to such composition.
11 U.S.C. § 903.

This reservation is limited by the Supremacy Clause. A state cannot rely on the § 903 reservation of state power to condition or to qualify, i.e. to "cherry pick," the application of the Bankruptcy Code provisions that apply in chapter 9 cases after such a case has been filed. Mission Indep. School Dist. v. Texas, 116 F.2d 175, 176-78 (5th Cir. 1940) (chapter IX); Vallejo, 403 B.R. at 75-76; In re City of Stockton, 475 B.R. 720, 2012 Bankr. LEXIS 3234, 2012 Westlaw 2905523 at *4 - *5 (Bankr. E.D. Cal. 2012) ("Stockton I&quot ; In re Cnty. of Orange, 191 B.R. 1005, 1021 (Bankr. C.D. Cal. 1996).

While a state may control prerequisites for consenting to permit one of its municipalities (which is an arm of the state cloaked in the state's sovereignty) to file a chapter 9 case, it cannot revise chapter 9. Stockton I, 2012 Bankr. LEXIS 3234, [WL] at *4 - *5. For example, it cannot immunize bond debt held by the state from impairment. Mission Indep. School Dist., 116 F.2d at 176-78.

2

Section 904 complements § 903. In view of the inability of a state to control or condition chapter 9 proceedings after the municipal case is filed with the state's permission, § 904 imposes limits on the federal court to assure that powers reserved to the states are honored:
Limitation on jurisdiction and powers of court

Notwithstanding any power of the court, unless the debtor consents or the plan so provides, the court may not, by any stay, order, or decree, in the case or otherwise, interfere with —

(1) any of the political or governmental powers of the debtor;

(2) any of the property or revenues of the debtor; or

(3) the debtor's use or enjoyment of any income-producing property.
11 U.S.C. § 904.

As the construction of § 904 is central to the instant matter, its history is important.

The statutory limit on the authority of the court that is now § 904 has been enacted four times. Each revision has reduced the latitude within which the court can act. The limit has come to be described as "absolute."

The overall goal is a balance that does not offend the Tenth Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, or to the people." U.S. Const. amend. X.

B

The evolution of the limit on court authority in what is now § 904 — from 1934 to its current version — is instructive. Perceived defects in the limit were a basis for invalidating the first municipal bankruptcy law as unconstitutional. Ever since, Congress has keep a weather eye on the constitutionality problem.

1

The first enactment of the limit on court authority was in the first municipal bankruptcy law in 1934:
The judge ... (11) shall not, by any order or decree, in the proceeding or otherwise, interfere with (a) any of the political or governmental powers of the taxing district, or (b) any of the property or revenues of the taxing district necessary in the opinion of the judge for essential governmental purposes, or (c) any income-producing property, unless the plan of readjustment so provides.
Bankruptcy Act § 80(c)(11), Act of May 24, 1934, 48 Stat. 801 (emphasis supplied).

The Supreme Court disapproved the 1934 statute as an unconstitutional interference with the sovereignty of a state on two theories. First, structurally, municipal bankruptcy was an impossible contradiction of federalism. Second, the particular statutory terms might enable the federal government to impose its will on an unwilling sovereign state. Ashton, 298 U.S. at 532.

Although the Bekins Court repudiated Ashton's structural objection when validating the 1937 municipal bankruptcy act, the second Ashton rationale has endured and has influenced Congress always to confine its exercise of the bankruptcy power to measures that do not usurp state sovereignty.

2

Congress reacted to Ashton in 1937 by reenacting the municipal bankruptcy provisions with revisions designed to reduce the opportunity for excessive federal control over state sovereignty. Act of Aug. 16, 1937, 50 Stat. 653.

One significant change was deletion of the phrase "in the opinion of the judge" so as to make the concept of "property or revenues necessary for essential services" less dependant on the subjective view of a federal judge.

The revised provision, with that deletion and with shifts in nomenclature from "taxing district" to "petitioner" and "plan of arrangement" to "plan of composition," was otherwise unchanged:
The judge ... shall not, by any order or decree, in the proceeding or otherwise, interfere with (a) any of the political or governmental powers of the petitioner; or (b) any of the property or revenues of the petitioner necessary for essential governmental purposes; or (c) any income-producing property, unless the plan of composition so provides.
Bankruptcy Act § 83(c), Act of Aug. 16, 1937, 50 Stat. 657.

The Supreme Court validated the 1937 municipal bankruptcy statute in Bekins, reasoning that it was a cooperative enterprise by state and federal sovereigns that was carefully drawn so as not to infringe state sovereignty. Bekins, 304 U.S. at 51. It emphasized that a state "retains control of its fiscal affairs" and that "no control or jurisdiction over that property and those revenues of the petitioning agency necessary for essential governmental purposes is conferred" on the federal court. Id.

3

The third version of the statutory limit on court authority-was part of a modernization of former Bankruptcy Act chapter IX in 1976. Act of Apr. 8, 1976, Pub. L. 94-260, 90 Stat. 315.

The statutory limit changed in three important respects. First, the municipality could consent to exercise of otherwise-prohibited federal judicial authority. Second, it was clarified that the limitation applied to stays, including automatic stays. Third, the qualification "necessary for essential government services" was deleted from the ban on interference with property or revenues of the debtor.

This 1976 version, new Bankruptcy Act § 82(c), provided:
(c) Limitation. — Unless the petitioner consents or the plan so provides, the court shall not, by any stay, order or decree, in the case or otherwise, interfere with —

(1) any of the political or governmental powers of the petitioner;

(2) any of the property or revenues of the petitioner; or

(3) the petitioner's use or enjoyment of any income-producing property.
Bankruptcy Act § 82(c), Act of Apr. 8, 1976, 90 Stat. 316.

Congress made plain that it was preserving the strict limitation on judicial interference with political or governmental powers, property or revenue, or income-producing property based on Ashton and Bekins and their progeny: the Supreme Court and Courts of Appeals have "made it very clear that the jurisdiction of the court is strictly limited to disapproving or to approving and carrying out a proposed composition. The bill follows these holdings and retains the limitation on the court's power." H.R. Rep. No. 94-260, 94th Cong., 1st Sess., at 9-10, reprinted in 1976 USCCAN at 547-48.3

FOOTNOTES

3 And:
Subsection (c) repeats and broadens the limitation in section 83(c), paragraph 1, of current law on the power granted to the court under subsection (b) and elsewhere in the chapter, by prohibiting any interference by the court, by any order or decree, in any of the political or governmental powers of the petitioner; any of the property or revenues of the petitioner, or which is used or enjoyed by the petitioner. The Committee feels that this limitation is required by Ashton and Bekins [citations omitted], which defined the limits of Congress' power under the bankruptcy clause, and the extent to which Congress may grant power to the courts to assist in the management of the affairs of a [**17] distressed municipality.
H.R. Rep. No. .94-260, 94th Cong., 1st Sess., at 18, reprinted in 1976 USCCAN at 556.


The deletion of the phrase "necessary for essential government services" from § 82(c) (2) aimed to broaden the limitation. The words "necessary" and "essential" invited unnecessary litigation. The "governmental services" language reflected an obsolete distinction between governmental and proprietary functions that the Supreme Court abolished in 1946. The phrase overlapped and confused the related ban on judicial interference with income-producing property.4

FOOTNOTES

4 "The House Committee explained:
The second change broadens the limitation by eliminating the phrase "necessary for essential governmental services" from the second paragraph of the subsection. The phrase was deleted for three reasons. First, the words "necessary" and "essential" were conducive to litigation. Second, and more importantly, the Supreme Court in New York v. United States, 326 U.S. 572, 66 S. Ct. 310, 90 L. Ed. 326, 1946-1 C.B. 285, abolished the distinction between governmental and proprietary functions. Thus, it is now appropriate to prohibit interference by the court in any of the municipalities' functions, for they are all equally governmental functions.

Third, the limitation, on interference with any income-producing property, seems to deprive the qualification "essential for necessary governmental services" of any effect. Under one, the court is denied the power to interfere with property necessary for governmental services; under the other, the court may not interfere with any income-producing property. There is conceivably a third category of property, non-income-producing property that is not necessary for essential governmental services, but the existence of that category does not warrant the potential for litigation that exists with the old language. In any case, no constitutional problem is anticipated, because the power of the court to interfere with the petitioner is further limited by the change.
H.R. Rep. No. 94-260, 94th Cong., 1st Sess., at 18, reprinted in 1976 USCCAN at 556 (footnote omitted).


4

The 1976 version was reenacted in 1978 as 11 U.S.C. § 904 with the addition of the preambular phrase "Notwithstanding any power of the court."

This additional limiting language forbids resort to a federal court's inherent or equitable powers. It reflects reinvigorated sensitivity in 1978 by Congress to the need to avoid unnecessary intrusions of state sovereignty in order to obviate the risk of invalidation by the Supreme Court.

That heightened concern stemmed, in part, from the Supreme Court's then-recent invocation of the Tenth Amendment to invalidate part of a labor statute. Nat'l League of Cities v. Usery. 426 U.S. 833, 842-52, 96 S. Ct. 2465, 49 L. Ed. 2d 245 (1976), overruled, Garcia v. San Antonio Metro. Transit Auth., 469 U.S. 528, 531, 105 S. Ct. 1005, 83 L. Ed. 2d 1016 (1985).

Usery worried the drafters of the Bankruptcy Code. The House Committee noted, the "Usery case underlines the need for this limitation on the court's powers" and added that § 904 "makes clear that the court may not interfere with the choices a municipality makes as to what services and benefits it will provide to its inhabitants." H.R. Rep. No. 95-595, at. 398. Even though later overruled,. Usery is a reminder that the Tenth Amendment is a brooding presence over the chapter 9 landscape.

C

The message derived from this history regarding the power of this court to interfere with the City's actions regarding retiree health benefits compels the conclusion that § 904 prevents any federal court from doing what the plaintiffs request, regardless of whether the City's action is fair or unfair.

The concern has constitutional proportions. Chapter 9 passed constitutional muster on the basis that the federal bankruptcy power be exercised at the request of, but not at the expense of, the sovereign state in an exercise of cooperation among sovereigns. Bekins, 304 U.S. at 51-53 (here "we have cooperation to provide a remedy for a serious condition in which the States alone were unable to afford relief.&quot .

As a state-federal cooperative enterprise conducted in delicate circumstances in which state sovereignty must be respected, Congress has been sedulous to assure that the bankruptcy power not be used in municipal insolvencies in a manner that oversteps delicate state-federal boundaries.

The entire structure of chapter 9 has been influenced by this pervasive concern to preserve the niceties of the state-federal relationship. The foundation involves multiple levels of consent. No chapter 9 case can be filed other than a voluntary case filed by the municipality with the consent of the state. 11 U.S.C. § 109(c)(2). The municipality consents by filing the voluntary case. 11 U.S.C. § 301, incorporated by § 901(a). Consent is implicit in the restriction that only the municipality can propose a plan of adjustment. 11 U.S.C. § 941. Another consent is the express consent recognized in § 904 that the City has declined to give in this proceeding. 11 U.S.C. § 904.

Other provisions further the Constitutional restriction against encroaching on state sovereignty. For example, the Bankruptcy Code's restrictions on use, sale, or lease of property do not apply in chapter 9. Compare 11 U.S.C. § 901(a), with id. § 363. Nor is there provision for a trustee or examiner in a chapter 9 case. Compare 11 U.S.C. § 901(a), with id. § 1104.

In the overall construct, § 904 performs the role of the clean-up hitter in baseball. Its preambular language "[n]otwithstanding any power of the court, ... the court may not, by any stay, order, or decree, in the case or otherwise ..." is so comprehensive that it can only mean that a federal court can use no tool in its toolkit — no inherent authority power, no implied equitable power, no Bankruptcy Code § 105 power, no writ, no stay, no order — to interfere with a municipality regarding political or governmental powers, property or revenues, or use or enjoyment of income-producing property. 11 U.S.C. § 904. As a practical matter, the § 904 restriction functions as an anti-injunction statute — and more.

In short, the § 904 limitation on the court's authority is absolute, with only the two exceptions stated in § 904: consent; and provision in a plan of adjustment (which can only be proposed by the municipality). 6 Collier on Bankruptcy ¶ 904.01 (Alan N. Resnick & Henry J. Sommer eds., 16th ed. 2011) ("Collier&quot .

III

The plaintiffs contend that § 904 does not apply and does not prevent the relief [*21] sought. They say they challenge only the role of the City as employer, not as governmental regulator, and that neither § 904(1) nor § 904(3) is implicated. While that argument is weak, § 904(2) is dispositive.

A

Conceding that the § 904(2) prohibition on interfering with the debtor's "property or revenues" poses an obstacle, plaintiffs argue5 that their relief would be an innocuous preservation of the status quo that would not directly interfere with City property or revenues, and would not indirectly interfere with revenues, because the retirees' rights to the health benefit is fixed and immutable. That argument is not persuasive.

FOOTNOTES

5 Supplemental Brief in Support of Application for Temporary Restraining Order and Preliminary Injunction or in the Alternative Relief From Stay, at 3 ("Retirees simply seek an order to preserve the status quo by prohibiting the City from unilaterally modifying Plaintiffs' vested and constitutionally-protected right to their earned benefits.&quot .


Coercively preserving a status quo that entails payment of money from the City treasury interferes with the City's choice to suspend such payments. The contents of the City treasury are "property or revenues" within the meaning of §. 904(2).

It is impossible to envision how granting the plaintiffs' prayer for an "order compelling the City to maintain the Retiree Health Benefit with respect to ARECOS members and Class Plaintiffs and all other City of Stockton retirees entitled to the Retiree Health Benefit as of July 1, 2012," and to pay attorney's fees, would not require the payment of money from the City's property or revenues. In fact, payment would be required.

It follows that the relief sought is barred by § 904(2) as an interference with the City's "property or revenues."

B

That a TRO was issued in the Orange County chapter 9 case does not compel the conclusion that a TRO is permitted here. The TRO in that case required that certain employees who had nominally been "permanently" laid off instead be treated as "temporarily" laid off, and required the parties to meet and confer to work out their differences. Orange Cnty. Emps. Ass'n v. Cnty. of Orange (In re Cnty. of Orange), 179 B.R. 177, 185 (Bankr. C.D. Cal. 1995) ("Orange County&quot .. It does not appear the "property or revenues" were being interfered with; it also was noted that the parties thereafter settled apparently before a monetary consequence ensued. Id. at 185, n.21.

Another distinction is that the Orange County TRO related to the process of assuming or rejecting unexpired collective bargaining agreements as § 365 executory contracts. 11 U.S.C. § 365; NLRB v. Bildisco & Bildisco, 465 U.S. 513, 521-23, 104 S. Ct. 1188, 79 L. Ed. 2d 482 (1984) ("Bildisco&quot ; Orange County, 179 B.R. at 183.

1

The formal statutory analysis is as follows. The § 365 executory contract provisions apply in chapter 9 cases by virtue of § 901(a). 11 U.S.C. § 901(a), incorporating id. § 365.

Sovereign immunity of a municipality is abrogated as to § 901. 11 U.S.C. § 106(a)(1).6 All chapter 1 provisions, including § 106(a)(1), apply in chapter 9. 11 U.S.C. § 103(f).7

FOOTNOTES

6 The section provides, in relevant part:
(a) Notwithstanding an assertion of sovereign immunity, sovereign immunity is abrogated as [**25] to a governmental unit to the extent set forth in this section with respect to the following:

(1) Sections ..., 901, 922, 926, 928, 929, 944, ... .
11 U.S.C. § 106(a) (1)..

7 The section provides:
(f) Except as provided in section 901 of this title, only chapters 1 and 9 of this title apply in a case under such chapter 9.
11 U.S.C. § 103(f).


Since § 901(a) lists sections from chapters other than chapters 1 or 9 that apply in chapter 9 cases, including § 365, it follows that the municipality's sovereign immunity is abrogated with respect to executory contracts.

In other words, the municipality's voluntary act of filing a chapter 9 case triggers two relevant consequences. First, the municipality consents, within the meaning of § 904, to interference by a federal court as to the Bankruptcy Code provisions that apply in chapter 9 cases. Vallejo, 403 B.R. at 75-76; In re Cnty. of Orange, 191 B.R. at 1021. Second, sovereign immunity is voluntarily abrogated to the extent provided in § 106.

In short, the naked fact of the issuance of a TRO in Orange County regarding a § 365 issue did not necessarily offend § 904, even though the rationale for that TRO seems dubious.8 The county consented under § 904 to federal judicial interference in the form of assessing the merits of § 365 assumption or rejection of executory contracts and waived its sovereign immunity by virtue of § 106 regarding executory contracts.

FOOTNOTES

8 Orange County has been criticized as implying that a municipality cannot unilaterally breach collective bargaining agreements before formal rejection. 6 Collier ¶ 901.04 [9] [a]. While the decision is opaque and the need for a TRO unclear, the actual terms of the TRO requiring that certain employees laid off "permanently" be deemed laid off only "temporarily" (the difference relating to seniority and grievance procedures), and requiring the parties to meet and confer, did not directly affect the County treasury. It is consistent with a court controlling a process preliminary to consideration of the reasonable-efforts-to-negotiate-voluntary-modification prong of Bildisco test for § 365 rejection, 465 U.S. at 526-27, that applies collective bargaining agreements. It is not necessarily inconsistent with Bildisco, which permitted contracts to be modified on an interim basis, subject to later § 365 review. 465 U.S. at 527-34. Absent agreement, such contracts ultimately must be rejected with damages dealt with in the claims process or assumed cum onere.


2

Here, the retiree health benefits are not executory contracts. Performance does not remain due to some extent, on both sides — there are no reciprocal obligations with performance due by both parties. Bildisco, 465 U.S. at 522 n.6.

The retirees insist they have performed their side of the bargain: "The City already exercised its political discretion to provide the Benefit and accepted the full performance by the Retirees of their services to the City to earn the Benefit." Supplemental Brief, at 3. And, "Each of the ARECOS members and Class Plaintiffs have satisfied their obligations under their respective contracts with the City." Complaint, ¶ 60.

Under any definition of a § 365 executory contract, the plaintiffs' prior full performance means they have no executory contract. So viewed, the Orange County TRO regarding an executory contract is inapposite to the question of the effect of § 904(2) on the City's interim cost cutting.

To the contrary, and it is hereby so held, § 904(2) prevents this court from granting the relief requested in this proceeding.

3

Plaintiffs' counsel agreed at oral argument that plaintiffs want the court to impose, by way of its injunctive power, the equivalent of the provisions of Bankruptcy Code § 1114 relating to "Payment of insurance benefits to retired employees" in chapter 11 cases even though § 1114 is not specifically made applicable in chapter 9 cases. 11 U.S.C. § 1114.

Section 1114 was enacted in 1988 to provide procedures and standards for modifying, retiree insurance benefits during a chapter 11 case. The basic rule for chapter 11 is that retiree insurance payments must continue to be made timely during the case unless and Until the court approves a modification. 11 U.S.C. § 1114(g). Modification requires compliance with a prescribed negotiation process and prescribed standards to be applied by the court. 11 U.S.C. §§ 1114(f)-(h).

The retiree insurance benefits provisions were modeled on § 1113, which was adopted in 1984 following the Supreme Court's Bildisco decision that collective bargaining agreements are executory contracts eligible for rejection under § 365 and that they may be unilaterally rejected or modified before formal rejection is approved by the court. Bildisco, 465 U.S. at. 521-27. New § 1113 imposed rejection procedures and standards for chapter 11 cases that were more stringent than the rejection standards prescribed in Bildisco.

But neither § 1113 nor § 1114 is designated in § 901(a) as applicable in chapter 9 cases. 11 U.S.C. § 901(a) (omitting § 1113 and § 1114).

Contentions that the absence of § 1113 from § 901(a) should be disregarded as an accident and that courts should apply § 1113 in chapter 9, instead of the Bildisco standards, have regularly been rejected. The judicial consensus is that Bildisco controls rejection of collective bargaining agreements in chapter 9 cases. Vallejo, 432 B.R. at 270-72, aff'g Vallejo, 403 B.R. at 77-78; Orange County, 179 B.R. at 183. This court agrees.

The delicate constitutional balance that has loomed large over municipal bankruptcy ever since Ashton further cautions against taking liberties to cure perceived legislative mistakes. In chapter 9, where Congress has been careful to observe the delicacies of the state-federal relationship, it is particularly appropriate to leave to Congress, not the courts, the decision to revise § 901(a).. See Vallejo, 432 B.R. at 272.

The logic focused on the structure of chapter 9, and the attendant importance of § 901(a) in the context of Congress taking care not to overstep the Tenth Amendment constraint, applies as much to § 1114 as to § 1113. The omission of § 1114 from § 901(a) warrants the conclusion, for the same reasons as articulated in the Vallejo and Orange County decisions, that § 1114 does not apply in chapter 9 cases.

To be sure, this conclusion appears to leave a gap in chapter 9 cases in the sense that some retiree insurance benefits are protected from modification by Bildisco's § 365 rejection standards because they are included in collective bargaining agreements, while others are not. In reality, any gap is less than meets the eye in view of the Bildisco holding that it is not an unfair labor practice for a debtor unilaterally to modify a collective bargaining agreement during the interval between the filing of the case and the formal rejection of the executory-contract. Bildisco, 465 U.S. at 527-34. In other words, regardless of whether the retiree insurance benefit is part of an executory [*24] contract or not, the benefit can be modified or suspended during the pendency of the case.

IV

The argument that the City has imposed a plan of adjustment without meeting fundamental requirements of due process, and in circumvention of plan confirmation standards, relies on the false premise that the City's so-called "Pendency Plan" adopted for use during the chapter 9 case is a plan of adjustment.

A

The pendency plan is not a plan of adjustment. A formal plan of adjustment must be filed as such, either with the petition or at such later time as the court fixes. 11 U.S.C. §941. No plan was filed with the petition in this case. No plan has yet been filed. This court has not yet fixed a time for filing such a plan. If and when such a plan is filed, the confirmation of the plan will be considered under the standards prescribed by the statute. 11 U.S.C. § 943.

Rather, the pendency plan is an interim survival mechanism that enables the financially embarrassed municipality, in the political and governmental judgment of its governing body, to continue to provide what it deems to be essential governmental services during the interval between the filing of a chapter 9 case and the confirmation of a plan of adjustment.

Suspending payment of various obligations during a case under the Bankruptcy Code is a routine aspect of the reorganization process. When the Supreme Court clarified in Bildisco that it is not an unfair labor practice for a chapter 11 debtor unilaterally to implement changes to a collective bargaining agreement — i.e. unilaterally to breach it — before the bankruptcy court acts on a § 365 motion to reject the contract, it necessarily determined that such unilateral changes do not offend due process. Bildisco, 465 U.S. at 527-34. The rationale is that upon filing a chapter 11 case, the debtor becomes "empowered by virtue of the Bankruptcy Code to deal with its contracts and property in a manner it could not have done absent the bankruptcy filing." Id. at 528.

Unilaterally-modified contracts are dealt with, as the Supreme Court explained, through conventional bankruptcy law provisions that entitle the victim of a breach of a prepetition obligation to file a proof of claim that will be dealt with in the ordinary claims process and receive the priority provided by the Bankruptcy Code. Id. at 530 n.12. It is most unlikely that the Supreme Court, after having impliedly endorsed the process in Bildisco, would regard it as inconsistent with due process.

This analysis applies in chapter 9 as § 365 applies in municipality cases. 11 U.S.C. § 901(a), incorporating id. § 365.

The plaintiffs have prepetition claims that, under their own theory of the case, are not executory contracts as they fully performed their bargains before bankruptcy. As noted, they may file proofs of claim on account of their retiree health benefits that will be addressed and valued during the claims adjustment process. 11 U.S.C. §§ 501-02. In addition, any claim that appears on the list of creditors that the City must file is deemed "filed," and hence "allowed," if not listed as disputed, contingent, or unliquidated, 11 U.S.C. § 925.

The plan of adjustment, when it is filed, will be confirmed only if it meets the pertinent statutory confirmation standards. 11 U.S.C. § 943. The plaintiffs will be entitled to accept or reject the plan. 11 U.S.C. § 1126(a), incorporated by § 901(a); Fed. R. Bankr. P. 3018. They also will be entitled to object to confirmation. Fed. R. Bankr. P. 3020(b).

The right to present claims, have them evaluated, to accept or reject the plan, and to object to confirmation is all the process that is due.

B

The real remedy for the plaintiffs lies in participating in the process of formulating a plan of adjustment. As this court has previously explained, the lessons of recent chapter 9 cases teach that successful plans of adjustment are most likely to be achieved by the parties in interest all coming to the table and participating in bona fide negotiations. Stockton I, 2012 Bankr. LEXIS 3234, 2012 Westlaw 2905523 at *9. Every issue that is resolved by agreement will enhance the prospects for a successful plan of adjustment.

To that end, the court has appointed a judge as standing mediator for this case to facilitate a negotiated solution.

In short, even if injunctive relief were permitted, this court is persuaded that injunctive relief is neither necessary nor appropriate to vindicate the rights of the plaintiffs.

V

Having concluded that injunctive relief is not available as a matter of law and, in any event, is not necessary and not appropriate, the alternative of relief from the automatic stay under 11 U.S.C. § 362 warrants discussion.

The City is correct that plaintiffs' request for stay relief is procedurally incorrect. Stay relief is a matter of general interest to all creditors (not merely the parties to this adversary proceeding) that needs to be presented by motion in the parent chapter 9 case with appropriate notice. See Fed. R. Bankr. P. 4001(a) & 9014. If the court were inclined to grant the relief, it would insist upon procedurally proper notice.

Nevertheless, the court is obliged to construe the rules of procedure so as to secure the just, speedy, and inexpensive determination of every case and proceeding. Fed. R. Bankr. P. 1001. Here, analysis of why relief from the automatic stay is not warranted may obviate a subsequent wild goose chase.

The logic of plaintiffs' request is that, if the bankruptcy court does not have authority to interfere with the City's property or revenues by virtue of § 904, then they should be allowed to go to a forum that does have such authority — i.e., the California state courts. Sometimes, as with a personal injury tort action, that is a good solution. But here it would be fundamentally at odds with basic policy underlying chapter 9.

The core of a chapter 9 case is adjustment of the debtor-creditor relationship. The plaintiffs here are creditors. They want two things: a judgment that their health benefit claims are valid and an order compelling the City to maintain payments for those benefits. Those issues are central to the debtor-creditor relationship to be dealt with, along with every other unhappy creditor, in the collective chapter 9 proceeding.

No separate judicial proceeding is needed to determine the validity of prepetition claims. In this case, a filed proof of claim will be "deemed allowed" unless someone objects, as will a claim listed by the City without being designated as disputed, contingent, or unliquidated. 11 U.S.C. §§ 502(a) & 925.

Any objection to a claim will be litigated in this court under established procedures that honor due process without extensive and expensive satellite litigation. Fed. R. Bankr. P. 3007. Resort to state court would be wasteful of everyone's resources and introduce unnecessary delay and confusion.

For a plan of adjustment to be confirmed as to a class of claims that has not accepted the plan, it must be "fair and equitable" and "not discriminate unfairly." 11 U.S.C. § 1129(b)(1), incorporated by id. § 901(a).

If no plan is confirmed, the case must be dismissed in which event the parties are restored to the prebankruptcy status quo. 11 U.S.C. § 349, incorporated by id. § 901(a).

As to the question of a state court compelling the City to pay for benefits during the chapter 9 case, there is another jurisdictional quandary. All City property, wherever located, as of the commencement of the case is in the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States District Court of which this bankruptcy court is a unit. 28 U.S.C. §§ 151 & 1334(e)(1). This exclusive jurisdiction could make it difficult to enforce a state-court order requiring payment, and raises fascinating jurisprudential complexities that are best left to another day.

The timing of payment on account of claims is important to the plaintiffs. The sooner there is agreement regarding their treatment in the collective chapter 9 case, the sooner they will salvage something out of this financial predicament.

Accordingly, the bankruptcy policy of favoring a collective proceeding to work out a comprehensive solution to municipal insolvency counsels against permitting nonbankruptcy litigation that would materially interfere with the reorganization process.

The request for relief from stay will be denied. If the request were to be revived, it would have to be presented in a procedurally correct manner.

VI

Having established that there will be no TRO, no injunction, and no relief from the automatic stay, as well as having established that the claims-adjudication procedure within the collective chapter 9 case is adequate to establish and vindicate the legitimate interests of the plaintiffs, the question becomes what is left of this adversary proceeding?

The answer is: nothing is left of the adversary proceeding.

The court gave notice that "if this court concludes at or after the July 23, 2012, hearing that 11 U.S.C. § 904 denies jurisdiction to any court exercising authority over the chapter 9 case of the Defendant, then this adversary proceeding will be dismissed on the court's own motion." Order Setting Hearing and Mandatory Briefing Schedule at 2-3. The phrase "any court" refers to any federal trial or appellate judge.

The § 904 question having been answered with a conclusion that the court lacks authority, and it being plain that nothing is left in controversy in this adversary proceeding that is not more appropriately resolved through conventional bankruptcy procedures, the adversary proceeding is appropriate to dismiss.

VII

The final question is whether this court is permitted to enter an order dismissing the adversary proceeding. The answer turns on a two-step analysis focused on the subject-matter jurisdiction statute, 28 U.S.C. § 1334, and then on bankruptcy's judicial administration allocation, 28 U.S.C. § 157.

A

Since who the plaintiffs are and what they want influences the analysis at each level, the starting point is to clarify their status in the bankruptcy case.

The plaintiffs are "creditors" who have "claims" against the debtor. Specifically, a "creditor" includes a person with a "claim" against the debtor that arose before the order for relief. 11 U.S.C. § 101(10)(A).9

FOOTNOTES

9 "Creditor" is defined in the Bankruptcy Code:
(10) The term "creditor" means —

(A) entity that has a claim against the debtor that arose at the time of or before the order for relief concerning the debtor;

(B) entity that has a claim against the estate of a kind specified in section 348(d), 502(f), 502(g), 502(h) or 502(i) of this title; or

(C) entity that has a community claim.
11 U.S.C. § 101(10).


The plaintiffs' asserted right to require the City to continue to pay for health benefits based on their prebankruptcy contractual rights are "claims." 11 U.S.C. § 101(5).10

FOOTNOTES

10 "Claim" is defined in the Bankruptcy Code:
(5) The term "claim" means —

(A) right to payment, whether or not such right is reduced to judgment, liquidated, unliquidated, fixed, contingent, matured, unmatured, disputed, undisputed, legal, equitable, secured, or unsecured; [**40] or

(B) right to an equitable remedy for breach of performance if such breach gives rise to a right to payment, whether or not such right to an equitable remedy is reduced to judgment, fixed, contingent, matured, unmatured, disputed, undisputed, secured, or unsecured.
11 U.S.C. § 101(5).


B

Federal subject-matter jurisdiction is founded on 28 U.S.C. § 1334(b), which confers jurisdiction on the district court over "all civil proceedings arising under title 11, or arising in or related to cases under title 11."

This bankruptcy court exercises § 1334 jurisdiction as a "unit" of the district court of which this bankruptcy judge is a "judicial officer of the district court." 28 U.S.C. § 151.

The allocation of authority as between district judges and bankruptcy judges is governed by 28 U.S.C. § 157. A bankruptcy judge may "hear and determine" and may "enter appropriate orders and judgments" in core proceedings. 28 U.S.C. § 157(b)(1).

In non-core proceedings that are otherwise "related to" a case under title 11, a bankruptcy judge may "hear" but not "determine" the matter, leaving the latter function to a district judge after considering the bankruptcy judge's proposed findings and conclusions and reviewing de novo matters to which a party has timely and specifically objected. 28 U.S.C. § 157(c) (1).11 The parties, however, may consent to have a bankruptcy judge "hear and determine" such a proceeding.

FOOTNOTES

11 That provision is:
(c)(1) A bankruptcy judge may hear a proceeding that is not a core proceeding but that is otherwise related to a case under title 11. In such proceeding, the bankruptcy judge shall submit proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law to the district court, and any final order or judgment shall be entered by the district judge after considering the bankruptcy judge's proposed findings and conclusions and after reviewing de novo those matters to which any party has timely and specifically objected.
28 U.S.C. § 157(c)(1).


The court has an independent duty to determine the core/non-core status of a proceeding and is not bound by allegations of the parties. 28 U.S.C. § 157(b)(3).12

FOOTNOTES

12 That duty is:
(3) The bankruptcy judge shall determine, on the judge's own motion or on timely motion of a party, whether a proceeding is a core proceeding under this subsection or is a proceeding that is otherwise related to a case under title 11. A determination that a proceeding is not a core proceeding shall not be made solely on the basis that its resolution may be affected by State law.
28 U.S.C. § 157(b)(3).


C

Starting with subject-matter jurisdiction, the problem is which category of § 1334(b): "arising under" title 11; "arising in" a case under title 11; or "related to" cases under title 11.

The plaintiffs' allegation that this -action is "related to" a case under title 11 is presented as a naked conclusion with no facts in support. The syntax of § 1334(b) appears to make the "related to" category a residual catchall to include matters that are not necessarily part of the bankruptcy case. But the fringes of this category have led to considerable litigation. 1 Collier ¶ 3.01 [3] [e] [ii]. The tendency to overuse this category has been criticized. See Ralph Brubaker, On the Nature of Federal Bankruptcy Jurisdiction: A General Statutory and Constitutional Theory, 41 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. 743, 862-920 (2000) (arguing "related to" category is narrower than commonly assumed). Now that waters are roiling in the wake of Stern v. Marshall, 131 S.Ct. 2594, 180 L. Ed. 2d 475 (2011), interests of efficient judicial administration make it important to focus carefully on the § 1334(b) categories.

In this adversary proceeding, the counts in the complaint assert rights against the City under nonbankruptcy law that might be considered in a court of general jurisdiction, but the reality is that this action would not exist in the absence of this chapter 9 case. Without the federal bankruptcy power to impair contracts, the City's unilateral reduction of retiree health benefits would not be attempted in the first place. In other words, but for the existence of this chapter 9 case, there would be no justiciable dispute. It follows that this dispute is too close to the heart of the bankruptcy case to be regarded as merely "related to" a case under title 11. The jurisdictional allegation in the complaint is rejected as incorrect.

The question then becomes whether this dispute "arises under title 11" or "arises in a case under title 11."

The "arising under" § 1334(b) category has heretofore been understood to mean causes of action that are created by the Bankruptcy Code. 1 Collier ¶ 3.01 [3] [e] . The difficulty here is that under the conventional view, the complaint does not invoke bankruptcy law; the Bankruptcy Code involvement occurs when § 904 swoops in from nowhere-mentioned-in-the-complaint to bar the injunction. While the City's unilateral interim action is permitted to occur during a bankruptcy case, title 11 does not specifically authorize the interim action. Nor are any of the plaintiffs' causes of action created by title 11. In these circumstances, the fit with the "arising under" category is uncomfortable; the "arising in" category may be the better fit. 1 Collier ¶ 3 . 01 [3] [e] [iv].

The third § 1334(b) category is the proceeding "arising in" a case under title 11. The parameters of this intermediate category have been poorly outlined in the case law and deserve more careful attention. It is argued in the academic literature that, based on historical jurisprudence, more cases qualify as "arising in" a case under title 11 than commonly assumed. Brubaker, 41 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. at. 755, 859-62, 914 n.599.

Regardless, of whether the outer dimensions of § 1334(b) "arising in" jurisdiction may be uncertain, existing case law discerns such jurisdiction as including proceedings that, while not based on a right created by title 11, would not exist outside of bankruptcy. Harris v. Wittman (In re Harris), 590 F.3d 730, 737 (9th Cir. 2009); Maitland v. Mitchell (In re Harris Pine Mills, Inc.), 44 F.3d 1431, 1434 (9th Cir. 1995) [**45] ; Eastport Assoc. v. City of Los Angeles (In re Eastport Assoc.), 935 F.2d 1071, 1076 (9th Cir. 1991); Wood v. Wood (In re Wood). 825 F.2d 90, 97 (5th Cir. 1987); Menk v. LaPaglia (In re Menk), 241 B.R. 896, 909 (9th Cir. BAP 1999). It is sometimes said that "arising in" relates to the "administration" of the case. E.g. Wood, 825 F.2d at 97; 1 Collier ¶ 3.01 [3] [e] [iv].

Here, the plaintiff creditors allege nonbankruptcy theories to attack interim measures regarding their claims taken under the authority of bankruptcy law in the course of administration of the case. The basis of the injunction complaint involves the debtor-creditor relationship between the parties and calls into question the enforceability of bankruptcy doctrines. Such a dispute comfortably fits within the established judicial construction of the § 1334(b) "arises in" category. 28 U.S.C. § 1334(b); Harris. 590 F.3d at 737-38; Menk, 241 B.R. at, 909. It is also sufficient (but not necessary) that the outcome is affected by a section of the Bankruptcy Code — § 904.

Accordingly, this proceeding "arises in" a case under title 11, within the meaning of 28 U.S.C. § 1334(b).

D

The next task is to determine whether the proceeding qualifies as a core proceeding. Sixteen examples of core proceedings are listed at 28 U.S.C. § 157(b)(2)(A)-(P). The list is not limiting. 11 U.S.C. § 102(3); 1 Collier ¶ 3.02[3]. As the definitions overlap and are nonexclusive, the sixteen categories are not mutually exclusive and fall into five general categories: (1) matters of administration; (2) avoidance actions; (3) matters concerning property of the estate; (4) omnibus categories; and (5) chapter 15 cases. 1 Collier ¶ 3.02 [3] [a]. The first and fourth categories are implicated in this instance.

This lawsuit is a core proceeding on three adequate, independent grounds: §§ 157(b)(2)(A), (B), and (O).

Since the gravamen of the complaint challenges interim actions being taken by the City in the course of administering the case, it qualifies as a core proceeding on that basis. 28 U.S.C. § 157(b) (2) (A) ; 1 Collier ¶ 3 . 02 [3] [a].

The determination that the plaintiffs are "creditors" who have "claims" against the debtor implicates core proceeding status regarding "allowance or disallowance of claims" of creditors. 28 U.S.C. § 157(b)(2)(B). Thus, the demand for a declaratory judgment that plaintiffs have a vested property [**47] interest is merely a premature request that this court determine that their claims are allowed; this is the essential routine of the claims administration process.

Finally, this chapter 9 involves the adjustment of financial relations between the City and all of its creditors, including the plaintiffs, in a process that will culminate in a chapter 9 plan of adjustment. As such, this proceeding that focuses on the relationship between debtor City and creditor plaintiffs is a core proceeding as an "other proceeding" affecting the "adjustment of the debtor-creditor or the equity security holder relationship." 28 U.S.C. § 157(b)(2)(O); [*30] Harris, 590 F.3d at 738-40; 1 Collier ¶ 3.02 [3] [d] [ii].

Therefore, this entire dispute is a "core proceeding" that "arises in" this chapter 9 case that a bankruptcy judge may "hear and determine" and "enter appropriate orders and judgments" pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 157(b)(1).

The appropriate order in this instance is an order dismissing this adversary proceeding. The dismissal will be without prejudice to further prosecution of the plaintiffs' claims in the routine course of the reorganization and claims administration process, which process does not ordinarily [**48] require an adversary proceeding.

Conclusion

For the reasons stated, Bankruptcy Code § 904 forbids the injunction requested. Settled bankruptcy law permits the City to implement interim contractual modifications before the confirmation of a chapter 9 plan of adjustment but such revisions do not, as a matter of law, become permanent unless and Until made part of a confirmed plan of adjustment or otherwise voluntarily agreed. The plaintiffs' substantive claims will be more expeditiously fixed and determined in accordance with principles of due process without the need for this adversary proceeding. Stay relief is inappropriate because the nature of the dispute is integral to the adjustment of the debtor-creditor relationship that policy dictates occur in a single forum.

The remedy for the plaintiffs is to participate in the process of negotiating their treatment under a chapter 9 plan.

This is a core proceeding that "arises in" the chapter 9 case and would not exist "but for" the chapter 9 case.

Accordingly, orders will be entered DENYING the motion for TRO and preliminary injunction and declining to afford relief from the automatic stay.

This adversary proceeding will be DISMISSED, without prejudice to the prosecution by the plaintiffs of their various claims through conventional bankruptcy procedure.

Dated: August 6, 2012.

/s/ Christopher M. Klein Click for Enhanced Coverage Linking Searches

UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY JUDGE

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
120. No, I believe the Judge is Correct, the State can NOT agree.
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 11:55 AM
Jul 2013

In simple terms, the State can only agree if such agreement is permitted by STATE LAW, the Governor can NOT overrule its own laws without repealing them OR the State Constitution without repealing the state constitutional provision, as such repeal is permitted under the State Constitution.

That if what the State Judge said about the case is true, the Bankruptcy case must be dismissed for the State can NEVER give permission without first repealing the constitutional provision in question. That is also the holding of the Bankruptcy Court in the case I cited, if the state permits a local municipality to declare Federal Bankruptcy, then and only then does the Bankruptcy Court has jurisdiction over the case. If the states forbids such filing, or on the alternative says what can happen in Bankruptcy court is NOT permitted to the Municipality, the Bankruptcy Court has no jurisdiction and the case must be dismissed.

Thus it is NOT only that the State gives such permission, but that the State CAN give such permission. I suspect how Michigan law is written, the State can NOT give permission and that is enough to dismiss the filing.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
3. A pension is a deferred payment that, increasingly, was meant to make up for cuts or freezes in
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:07 AM
Jul 2013

salaries. Retiree health-care agreements are the same way. The gutting of private and public pensions is vile. It is inconceivable to me that these contracts can be annulled -- oops! Sorry! But it's only ever one side that breaks them, and the other side is left holding the bag.

malaise

(269,022 posts)
5. They've been looting our pensions for decades
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:07 AM
Jul 2013

Now they don't even pretend about it.
Sickening!! Fuck the 1%

 

matthews

(497 posts)
89. The feds have been looting Social Security for decades...
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:45 PM
Jul 2013

why do you think they've been offered up for stealing by Obama? They don't want to pay the money back so they'll just destroy it.

Like they do pensions.

***

State pension headaches get more painful

June 19, 2012: 12:46 PM ET

Pension plans in 34 states were less than 80% funded, which is the recommended threshold. Four states -- Connecticut, Illinois, Kentucky and Rhode Island -- were less than 55% funded.

Retiree health benefits were in even worse shape. As of 2010, they had put away only 5% of the total expected bill.

Only seven states have funded 25% or more of their retiree health obligations, while 17 have saved nothing. States usually pay health care costs and premiums for retired workers when they incur those expenses.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/19/news/economy/states_pension_gap/index.htm

**

I'd be willing to bet things have gotten better since last summer.

TransitJohn

(6,932 posts)
6. Well you see, there's a moral hazard if we take care of individuals
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:08 AM
Jul 2013

But it's a moral imperative that we take care of corporations.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
7. My liberal sister's ultra conservative husband retired from the air force and then from
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:10 AM
Jul 2013

the post office. She tried telling him that if the GOP has its way, neither of those pensions are really safe.
He says, no they are safe because they promised, it is in writing.
The only thing that he gets that is rock solid, IMO (unless Obama gets that el bargain grande that he so loves) is the paltry social security he gets from his job as a security guard.

ananda

(28,864 posts)
24. Sometimes I think that conservatives can't be reasoned with...
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:53 AM
Jul 2013

... neither with facts, logic, or precedents.

Maybe it's the Big Daddy complex. BD would never hurt me or take
something away from me ... he promised.

Geez. It sounds like some sort of abuse or Stockholm syndrome.

ejpoeta

(8,933 posts)
38. unfortunately they don't get it until it directly affects them.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:00 AM
Jul 2013

Like if this guy loses his pension. The firefighters were promised in writing too. It's not like they just spit and shook on it. They have contracts, just like he does at least with the post office.

My dad worked for kodak. I miss him like heck but am glad he wasn't around to see the pensions get gutted. I mean, he didn't live high on the hog, but he could live a decent life and not have to scrimp and save for everything. His girlfriend's sister also worked at kodak and is getting screwed every which way. She was promised IN WRITING too. shows what a promise means. They should have to honor those pensions. period.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
56. Contracts with workers are disposable in the dictatorship of capital....
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:16 PM
Jul 2013

Whereas contracts preventing worker actions, like strikes, etc. and contracts protecting "private" property are sacred.

JustAnotherGen

(31,828 posts)
8. Your bolder sentence is the key take away
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:11 AM
Jul 2013

This man operated under good faith. And now he is getting the shaft. I think we can bail out the pension funds if we bailed out Bank of America . . . We will benefit as a society whereas with BOA we did not.

Since Detroit firefighters didn't participate in Social Security, his federal check is based only on his time in the private sector.

Historic NY

(37,449 posts)
18. Yup, that doesn't work out so well....
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:34 AM
Jul 2013

time & time again we see this with some states or municipal governments. I think of SS as a backup just in case this sh-t happens. I'm retired on a disabliity pension 1/2 pay. It would take 2 checks just to pay the school & property taxes & then some, w/o the SS added in. It took over 5yrs to get it settled too. Thankfully I've participated in SS from my teens onward. It makes the difference.

Municipal pension plans are a crap shoot plain & simple.

Gidney N Cloyd

(19,838 posts)
9. I'm amazed how many even in the middle and low end of the 99% support screwing pensioners.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:12 AM
Jul 2013

The one thing the 1% succeeded in doing better than anything else, and it was a work of art, really, was to misdirect all the groups they were they were fucking over into blaming their problems on each other.

antigop

(12,778 posts)
19. I think it's due to the fact that a lot of people don't get pensions -- so they have no sympathy for
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:38 AM
Jul 2013

the ones who do. The feeling is, "Well, I don't get a pension, you shouldn't either."

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
26. I think that's pretty much right.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:03 AM
Jul 2013

Instead of asking "Why should HE get a pension when I don't," the right question is "How come I don't have a pension like that?"

The tragedy of working people is that they are so easily divided against each other. I keep seeing these old junker cars driving around with their bumpers held on by Walker campaign stickers…

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
69. That, and the money to fund government pensions and benefits...
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 04:17 PM
Jul 2013

Comes from private sector workers who lack these things. And thanks to the "free trade" that passed under these pensioner's watch, future generations NEVER will.

If they expected future generations to fight for them, they should have made damn sure they weren't fucking these young people over. But that's not what happened.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
11. Bethleham Steel went belly up about the time my dad retired after 35 years with them.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:14 AM
Jul 2013

They cut his pension down to next to nothing and the officers and directors took most of what was there before filing!

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
12. This happened to my Aunt when BB&T was bought out. She was 72 when they cut her pension.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:18 AM
Jul 2013

This should be WAY illegal. Corporations that contract with their employees for a pension should have to be insured against bankruptcy of pension funds.

It could happen to ANY worker, and we should all be up in arms about it.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
17. The PGBC has been gutted through the years. They can fund pennies on the dollar promised, if that.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:31 AM
Jul 2013

antigop

(12,778 posts)
21. The PBGC is only for private (not public) sector pensions
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:43 AM
Jul 2013
http://www.pbgc.gov/about/who-we-are.html

The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) protects the retirement incomes of more than 40 million American workers in more than 26,000 private-sector defined benefit pension plans.


Also, just fyi, the PBGC is not funded by taxpayers:
PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over.
 

byeya

(2,842 posts)
30. That law was enacted when the Studebaker car company went out of business and it was
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:23 AM
Jul 2013

discovered the pension fund had either been looted or no money was put into at, as the bargaining agreement mandated, in the first place.
This worker protection has been whittled away little by little for 30 years.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
57. No, it's only war when we fight back....
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:19 PM
Jul 2013

Until then it's a class massacre and the working class is the one being massacred.

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
73. I hope to die working on the job because the alternatives don't seem much better
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:13 PM
Jul 2013

And the first thing that i can think of is, well, at least that way it will be their problem to clean up the mess

To each his own about retirement but i would just love to give that 1% a sucker punch in the gut


P.S. And remember Agent Mike, your only hope, in the end, will be to have a job working for the 1%

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
96. Yeah, I know you did ....
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:29 PM
Jul 2013

I've read and enjoyed your posts in the past Eddie! However, there are a lot of people who seem to think that it's only class war when the rulers try to screw us. And of course the opposite is true too. To the rulers it's only class war when the working class even MENTIONS curtailing some of their economic power. I just wanted to point out that it takes TWO sides to make a war and, up to now, only one side has been fighting. And Warren Buffett told us which side that was in the 90s.

mtasselin

(666 posts)
28. don't
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:12 AM
Jul 2013

Don't think for a minute that these other asshole republicans are not going to try and figure out a way of doing it the people they represent. They keep pushing the envelope a little farther every time and no one seems to notice. And as for all these good union people that keep voting against your own interest, they are coming after you next if you can stay focused long enough to notice.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
64. And those same congressmen...
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 02:18 PM
Jul 2013

have a pretty good pension plan for themselves. The system is rigged.

sweetapogee

(1,168 posts)
114. pukes may be assholes
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 09:35 AM
Jul 2013

true, but we are talking about the City of Detroit and it's underfunded public employee pension fund. Could not the city solve this problem by borrowing funds to shore up the pension fund and increase real estate taxes pronto?

brewens

(13,589 posts)
29. I've been kind of taunting a right-wing friend with this kind of story. He's
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:14 AM
Jul 2013

looking at taking an early retirement from his state job. He's with Job Service. His thinking is that he wants out so his benefits will be locked in. He's convinced that any changes in the future won't be in his favor.

Despite his profession he's a complete bagger type. He's voted Republican his entire life. If he gets out, I can assure you he will be all for cutting other people back as long as he's got his.

I'm telling him he has no guarantees and what's going on in Detroit is a good example. All our state legislators have to do is start telling people that most of us don't get a pension, how can we afford to pay taxes to provide others with a pension? That's an argument that would have worked just fine on my buddy were he in a private sector job with no pension. It would make perfect sense.

When telling him that, I was also speculating on why the right isn't going after the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation? That would seem like a natural target, or does it? The existence of the PBGC is what allows people like Romney to loot companies and steal their pension funds. It wouldn't be so easy to get away with that if that kind of raiding left workers with nothing. It's still a wonder Republicans don't go after that. They could use the argument that taxpayers can't afford it when they don't get a pension themselves.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
48. Republicans (and Democrats) *have* been going after the PBGC. It's been underfunded and undermined
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:53 AM
Jul 2013

for many years.

CrispyQ

(36,470 posts)
31. It's time to renege on all politician pensions.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:27 AM
Jul 2013

Then maybe something would be done about this.

The problem:

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
34. Pensions in Canada are solid.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:43 AM
Jul 2013

.
.
.

Companies cannot use that money for any other purpose - money is put into a fund, untouchable by the companies.

Companies must also match the employees contributions.

So - if and when the company goes belly-up, the money is still there for the pensioners/employees.

Normal age to start collecting pensions in Canada is between 60 -65.

However, financial need, disability, among other issues - pensions can be released earlier.

This be Canada.

CC

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
74. More like-- it transfers the money...
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:30 PM
Jul 2013

...from working people to the fat cats in the war industry.

And of course all that wealth (as well the lives of our friends and relatives) is spent forcibly stealing even more shit from other working people overseas-- for the same wealthy parasites. And once those places have been... pacified... they send our jobs over there, where they'll do them for a nickle a day.

It's a relentless process, with regular people being fucked every step of the way. It really amazes me that we don't see violent responses to it here at home. People just take it, endlessly.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
87. But if we don't have that military, we can't protect the trade routes that enable our "free trade"
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:18 PM
Jul 2013

i.e., exploitation system in the world.

If we didn't have "free trade," Americans would have jobs and the 1% would have to go elsewhere to exploit workers.

In the post-Roosevelt-era, Americans had good jobs and were skilled and competent.

The worst of this "free trade" economy is what it has done to American young people. It has made them barely capable of moving the I-Pad screen to find the latest computer game.

Come on now. What are we really getting from "free trade" other than theft of our retirement funds.

ejpoeta

(8,933 posts)
39. i keep imagining americans as the ones sneaking over the border to get a better life.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:05 AM
Jul 2013

I swear. It's ridiculous what is happening here and no one either seems to notice or care. It just boggles my mind how they cannot make the connection between what is happening to others and what will happen to them.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
63. This is why
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 02:14 PM
Jul 2013

so many companies are running from the defined benefit plans and are changing to defined contribution plans. It's good there are protections here in Canada, but make no mistake, the companies are just as greedy here and are going to find ways around any kind of defined benefit. Thankfully, they can't get out of paying what they've already promised.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
83. That's how private pensions work but governments are exempt from our pension laws.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:04 PM
Jul 2013

Are your government entities also exempt?

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
106. Nope - like I said they are solid.
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 01:20 AM
Jul 2013

.
.
.

The only real change for the future is to gradually increase the age of eligibility for the OAS pension between the years 2023 and 2029, from 65 to 67.

For the curious - snoop around here for more info

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/retirement/

CC

Heywood J

(2,515 posts)
90. Never think that. It's absolutely untrue.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:14 PM
Jul 2013

Last edited Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:30 PM - Edit history (1)

This one comes to mind because it hits a little closer to home for me. I have family affected by all of this.

http://www.fasken.com/september2008_slater_steel_bulletin/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/retirement-dreams-under-siege/article4292981/?page=all
http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/2008/12/06/what_retirement.html

The shock, he says, was discovering at age 49 that nearly a third of the funds required to back his pension were not there.

"We were always told for years the pensions were stable; they were monitored by the government. No one (in the mill) ever dreamed our pension plan was as underfunded as it was."

Five years, a stint of unemployment and a couple of jobs later, Ellsworth is back with a small crew at his old mill, the same mill where his father and uncle once worked.
<...>
But Ellsworth earns a third less pay per hour; his new pension plan offers no guarantee of lifetime income; and, because of the large reduction to his Slater pension and the lack of inflation protection, he now plans to work to age 65, if his health holds out.

His former workmate Mike Bibeau is working two jobs, as a cleaner at a school and as Christmas staff at a Sears Canada store. "They gave me a reduced amount (of pension) but it wasn't enough to retire on. So I had to find work," he says.




Also, never forget Nortel. I know two people whose families are STILL caught up in that today.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/nortel-pensioners-vow-to-keep-fighting/article7881786/
Nortel Networks Corp. retirees, who saw their pensions slashed after the onetime telecom giant went into bankruptcy protection, are vowing to keep fighting the company’s bondholders after talks on dividing Nortel’s remaining assets collapsed.
Since insolvency proceedings began in 2009, Nortel has spent $755-million on lawyers and consultants. It’s a number that outrages its Canadian retirees, whose pensions were reduced by up to 50 per cent, and disabled former employees, who were left with just 35 per cent of their benefits.
In a press release from the Canadian retirees’ committee, 77-year-old Frank Mills, who worked at Nortel for 34 years, puts the pensioners’ resolve in stark terms: “I’d rather end up on welfare than give our hard-earned assets to these vultures.”
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/after-the-verdict-what-s-next-for-nortel-pensioners-1.1114415
http://www.bramptonguardian.com/blogs/post/3234829-nortel-pensioners-the-final-straw/
http://www.thestar.com/business/2011/07/15/nortel_pensioners_slammed_with_pension_cuts_claw_backs.html
Days after a patent sale generated $4.5 billion (U.S.) for creditors of insolvent Nortel Networks, its retirees are facing a huge cut in pension income, along with a clawback of benefits paid out over the past 10 months.
 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
107. Ontario has protection, AND Canada Pension IS solid
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 01:49 AM
Jul 2013

.
.
.
From one of your links:

http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/2008/12/06/what_retirement.html

Ontario has two of the strongest pension protections available in Canada. A Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund will cover the shortfall on up to $1,000 of a person's monthly pension.

Regulations also require that senior workers hit by a mass layoff be treated as though they're still working toward an early pension. They don't have to take a lump sum transfer or wait until age 65.


http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/2008/12/06/what_retirement.html

The Morneau letter cites “insufficient assets to fully satisfy benefit requirements,” indicating that retirees on average will be paid 70 per cent of their full pension entitlement in Ontario, and 59 per cent outside of Ontario, where most Nortel pensions are indexed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Also - if of age, they can top up with Canada Pension, Old Age Security, and Guaranteed Income supplement.

check out http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/retirement/ for references and more information.

After age 65 - Canada Pension gets you over $1200/mo with OAS and GIS

There are no penalties/clawbacks for other pensions or income unless they exceed 70k a year.

CC

Canada Pension IS solid - and I suspect in light of the underfunded private pensions, the regulations will keep getting tougher as governments will surely be pressured by it's voters,

and us voters are getting older . .

CC

Heywood J

(2,515 posts)
111. "Ontario has two of the strongest pension protections available in Canada."
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 08:54 AM
Jul 2013

does not mean that the pension is solid. A relative ranking may also mean that the others are built on sand. If it's truly the strongest protection, then why are my retirement-age family in Ontario worried that their pensions might disappear? Why did 1,000 workers have to worry about accumulated pensions when the EMD plant closed down? Why was Nortel allowed to avoid funding 41% of their pensions? Why do workers have to fight billion-dollar court battles to even look at the pension books? Stronger laws only mean something if exemptions are not granted and enforcement actually happens. Forgive me for not having much faith in the Mike Harris-era castoffs on that front.

"A Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund will cover the shortfall on up to $1,000 of a person's monthly pension."

After age 65 - Canada Pension gets you over $1200/mo with OAS and GIS

This only means that a senior may be left in poverty if an executive loots their pension, instead of being left destitute. $1,000/month does not go very far and it doesn't address the fundamental problem of pensions being under the control of the same company with an incentive to loot them or make them vanish.

The CPP may be solid for now, but we'll see how that lasts after the remainder of the Harper term. He's had his eye on it for a while. The thought of Steven Harper and "pressured by voters" in the same sentence gave me a good to start my day, though.
 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
116. First of all, CPP is over $1200/month and that's on top of any other pension they may have.
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 10:28 AM
Jul 2013

.
.
.

Secondly, Canadians would oust any Prime Minister that messes with our Canada Pension Plan.

As would they would do to any PM that messed with our Health Care.

What is your problem?

The $1000/month is in ADDITION to their shorted pension - did you follow any of the links and read up on it?

If they are a couple, they each get $1200/month.

So, if the Golden Girls were living in Canada, all being over 65, that's $3600/month.

Yes Canada has it's problems,

we have one of the highest tax bases in the World,

which we are willing to pay for our Health Care and financial security in our aging years.

HarperDude knows full well where to draw the line - I do not like nor trust him, but I do not think he is stupid.

Mess with our social programs - us "mild" Canucks will not be so mild anymore.

CPP is solid - in fact, they increase it to meet the Cost of Living.

Read up on it - I'm not gonna put you on ignore although I thought about it,

but unless you make an informed intelligent response, not just suppositions,

I will just simply not respond.

That's my way.

CC

madville

(7,410 posts)
35. I have two deferred pensions
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:45 AM
Jul 2013

Both are deferred, I start getting one at age 58 and the other starts at age 60 or age 57 if I take a 15% cut.

I also will have 40 years of social security contributions.

All together it should be about $50,000 a year.

Am I counting on any of it being there?

Nope, I suspect either it all gets looted, the economy falls apart and the funds go bankrupt or the money becomes worthless through inflation. I have some rental properties and funds I contribute to but those aren't guaranteed to be around either.

The bad part is with all the above stuff set up and moving along I still feel screwed.

BronxBoy

(2,286 posts)
46. Kevin Orr: How much is he making for his role in this?
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:47 AM
Jul 2013

Just curious and not meant to be a snarky posting

SunSeeker

(51,559 posts)
47. Student loans are not dischargable but pensions obligations are.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:49 AM
Jul 2013

Shows you who writes the bankruptcy laws....

 

southernyankeebelle

(11,304 posts)
51. when you start seeing more of these kinds of people losing their pensions then they
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:02 PM
Jul 2013

will be in the streets asking when are they going to arrest wall street bankers stealing from the american people. When are these people going to be held accountable?

Peregrine Took

(7,414 posts)
53. Its one thing for businesses to use bankruptcy as a dodge but for the gov't to do it?
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:10 PM
Jul 2013

Well, its just all over. You can hang it up.

ShadowLiberal

(2,237 posts)
59. Why is it even legal for people to not participate in Social Security?
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:28 PM
Jul 2013

Seriously, why do we let employers of any type not participate in Social Security? That screws over the workers long term, especially government workers with how many idiot local/state/federal governments cheat on pension payments (something that would be illegal in the private sector).

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
102. State and local governments cannot be required to pay into Social Security because
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 12:16 AM
Jul 2013

Last edited Mon Jul 22, 2013, 10:54 AM - Edit history (1)

it is a tax, and the Constitution forbids the federal government to tax state and local governments.

Most state and local governments over the years have opted INTO Social Security, but it is voluntary.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
118. It took me FOREVER to find out the reason why,
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 10:43 AM
Jul 2013

but I found the information from an obscure report that explained just why it is some state and local governments don't pay into it.

Originally state and local governments weren't allowed to participate in the Social Security system, but it was opened up by the early 1950s. Today the vast majority of them do participate, but participation on their part is voluntary.

marew

(1,588 posts)
68. A pension is merely deferred compensation.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 04:14 PM
Jul 2013

When I got out of grad school- eligible for honors- I knew my goal in life was to help people. I am a retired school social worker in Florida. I may have not put out physical fires but I spent over 30 years doing the very best I could for the children and families in my county.
I loved my career and believe I did it well. It was what I was meant to do. Yet whenever I go to the state website, I am reminded my pension could be 'modified' or 'changed' at any time.
I never aspired to be wealthy- I aspired to be supportive and kind and to help wherever I could.
To diminish the contributions of people like Newberry and me is not only dismissive of us but also of the people we attempted to help. But then we are far, far away from the 1% and to those privildeged people our contribution to society is negligible.
I still would not change a thing.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
75. Precisely.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 05:38 PM
Jul 2013

And the poor cannot afford court and legal fees to redress their grievances legally. This is a very bad situation.

Greed. Greed. Greed.

Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

 

darkangel218

(13,985 posts)
81. I thought all pension plans had a federal protection
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:02 PM
Jul 2013

It appears that they don't. So basically anyone could lose their pension at anytime. Wow..

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
80. Wall St isn't getting paid either. No one is getting paid. There is no money, ergo bankruptcy.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:02 PM
Jul 2013

Who do we think is going to pay these pensions? If anything it would be a federal bailout, aka all US taxpayers.

Do we all want to pitch in? That's a congressional decision...call your congressman.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
104. You mean like TARP was our decision as taxpayers?
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 12:46 AM
Jul 2013

Funny who gets bailed out and who does not. Good luck with Congress.

Heywood J

(2,515 posts)
92. This is what gets me.
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:16 PM
Jul 2013
Newberry isn't worried as much about what a potential pension reduction means for him. He does need enough money to survive, but he's willing to move out of his condo and live in a trailer.
That's his reward for pulling people from burning buildings for 30 years...

Marie Marie

(9,999 posts)
98. Hey -all your conservative Repukes that keep screaming about how
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:30 PM
Jul 2013

America has too much debt and we can't afford this program or that one because the government is broke - why aren't YOU giving up your fat congressional pensions? What's good for the goose.. oh never mind.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
103. We know which side the govt always favors.
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 12:44 AM
Jul 2013

Their view of the rich vs the working poor is very transparent. We can all just go fuck off and die, because someone will be happy to replace us.

They will take it all and leave you to die with nothing Mr. Newberry. Your life means nothing to a rich CEO.

wercal

(1,370 posts)
105. The city should keep its promise
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 12:52 AM
Jul 2013

....but it can't.

If this man retired in 1994, he retired at age 46....at some point it had to have been immoral to promise municipal workers that the pension would always be there.

Its not the fireman's fault...nut what about all the people who kept making this promise along the way...ovet the decades, as census data continued to show a shrinking tax base? They have made promises that are impissible to keep.

The bond holders will get screwed...the emergency administrator offered ten cents on the dollar...they did not accept and forced the bankruptcy filing in hope of getting more...but they are still going to get pennies on the dollar. Btw, I bet some of the bond holders are other pension funds. And the pensioners will also get screwed. I would not be surprised however, if a deal is brokered, keeping most of the existing pensions but screwing current workers...causing a rush to early retirement and general exodus of current city workers.

So everyone gets screwed...except the people who made these promises in bad faith, in the first place.

So where do we go from here? I work in a business that is highly dependent on a government's ability to economically borrow money. The municipal bond market is going to pay very close attention to this...and city borrowing rates could tick up...making a variety of city projects impossible and starting a domino effect of small businesses shedding employees.

All because some politicians...and public sector union reps also, btw....negotiated in incredibly bad faith. They had to have known the problem they were setting up, but declined to care, since it would manifest itself so far down the road.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
110. Just one bonus that one of those crooks on Wall Street
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 08:49 AM
Jul 2013

got from the taxpayer bailout would give this man the pension he earned.

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