General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUnf******believable: Talk Left Defends GZ (Zimmerman)
Following a link I saw in a Tweet tonight I was led to an unbelievable POS at Talk Left.
TL is supposedly "The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news" Bullshit.
It was like reading a Fox News report, but worse.
On President Obama's speech yesterday:
The most objectionable part of his comments: Not once did he express any empathy for George Zimmerman, the man who was acquitted who spent the past 16 months under the cloud of criminal charges, and who continues to have a target on his back. emphasis mine
Empathy for a man who murdered an unarmed 17 year old?
I thought it couldn't get worse than that but it does.
- more -
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/21/1225341/-Unf-believable-Talk-Left-Defends-GZ
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)If one's hatred for Obama extends to a complaint that he did not express sympathy for George Zimmerman, we really are through the looking glass with ODS. That's frothing territory.
daybranch
(1,309 posts)Do you believe that Zimmerman was so racist that he set out to kil an unarmed Afro-American? Do you believe he had the intent to hurt Zimmerman physically from the get go ? Do you believe that Trayvon was the one who was attacked first? Do you believe that Trayvon was only standing his ground? Do you believe that Zimmerman either beat his own head into something hard or that Trayvon did that? Do you believe that racists are waiting to kill Afro-Americans and hasve no fear of penalty if they do so? Do you believe that Zimmerman is totally without a conscience and killing Trayvon Martin has caused him no lasting guilt in his own mind? Do you believe that past acts of violence against AfroAmericans necessarily mean this is a KKK wannabe attack? Do you believe Zimmerman was protecting his life or not when he fired the gun? Do you believe that Zimmerman could have calmly said I have a gun so get off me and I will not shoot you? Do you believe that Martin would not try to prevent Zimmerman from reaching for the gun? Do you believe Zimmerman yelled for help in a plot to play the victim?Do you believe Trayvon knew about the gun and still struck Zimmerman ?
One can go on and on and I obviously have done that but the bottom line is, not only are you not supposed to make thinggs up as the defense attorney said, the things you make up when connected to the physical evidence support nothing more than self defense in a life and death struggle.
The cognitive dissonance being employed to whoop up anger, guilt, and action against not directly related laws and the justice system is more reflective of the republican party I hope than of thinking democrats.
I really care little whether Zimmerman gets empathy or not, he will live with this tragedy and suffer from it in a number of ways, but I worry that the fires of hate are being stoked to achieve political objectives, to raise money and to attack stand your ground laws, gun rights etc. I personally favor battling racism, battling stand your ground laws, and enacting more restrictive gun control than is usually contemplated in Congress. But again I know that we have to do this honestly with reason and facts and quit acting as if we are Fox News or the NRA who say anything to support their point.
Lets make our judgements rationally and then the emotion that comes will be valid. Lets not let the emotion create the judgement and more irrational judgements continue to inflame the emotions.
trumad
(41,692 posts)And that goes for his shit bird defenders. How's that for rational discussion?
Scuba
(53,475 posts)No, it's the fires of decency and compassion. Hate was the emotion GZ carried with him, along with his gun.
You seem to miss that point entirely.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)But when opportunity knocked....
Bettie
(16,110 posts)Maybe not that night, but he was that cop wannabe guy who dreams of using his gun to "blow someone away" to fulfill his defender of the universe fantasy.
He called multiple times, almost always for "suspicious" AA males.
This kid was walking at 7:15 in the evening, not exactly late at night. GZ saw his opportunity to rid the world of one more of those "assholes who always get away" and he took it.
The telling thing for me, the thing that removes even the possibility of ever feeling empathy for this little man is the fact that he has never once expressed remorse for what he did, he has never indicated that he is sorry he killed another human being.
A normal person wouldn't just go to work the next day as if nothing had happened. A normal person wouldn't sit and tell Hannity that it was "god's will" for him to kill an unarmed teenager.
GZ's only regret seems to be that he got in trouble for it.
I suspect he'll kill again, after all, in Florida all you need to do to murder someone is declare that you 'felt scared' at the moment you decided to shoot another human being to death. George will kill again, because he's a fearful little man and he'll walk again, because he'll kill another person the justice system doesn't care about.
I'm so tired of the defenders of GZ who think that TM deserved to die for walking down a street in the early evening. So tired of people who proclaim that GZ had an absolute right to kill anyone he fucking well pleased just because he was scared or claimed to be scared.
If this is the new standard of self-defense, taking the word of the one left alive as absolute truth, then there should never be another murder conviction in that god-forsaken state.
chowder66
(9,070 posts)I'm with you and support every single word you said.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Zim You! is the new expletive of the highest sweardom.
chowder66
(9,070 posts)Do you believe that Zimmerman was so racist that he set out to kil an unarmed Afro-American?
>His myspace page showed he has racist tendencies. His bigotry/prejudice informs his psyche as much as it does others with fear and prejudice in their hearts and minds.
Do you believe he had the intent to hurt Zimmerman physically from the get go ?
>He had an intent, an intent so strong he didn't wait for the cops to arrive, he didn't stop following a child and he didn't stop himself from killing a child.
>Being suspicious of a boy (because it was difficult for Zimmerman to consider anything other than bad intent on the boys part) tells me that Zimmerman was most definitely intent on NOT HELPING Martin. Zimmerman called the police so it seems Zimmerman had intent to believe his own prejudice and thought a potential crime or bad deed could happen or did happen with not a shred of evidence. Zimmerman BELIEVED something "bad" and therefore "pursued his imagined criminal". He projected his fear onto an innocent person and that person died because of his "imagination and prejudice".
>With his gun in tow, Zimmerman knew he had a way to protect himself. Zimmerman decided to forgo the aid of the police who he contacted and knew were coming, Zimmerman decided to forego waiting as he was informed that he was not needed to follow the child. I believe after Zimmerman decided not to wait, not to show any restraint, he in fact became a defacto cop in his mind. Zimmerman is not a cop. I believe he knew at this point he was escalating and creating a much bigger issue but decided to forego any restraint because his fear and obsession with wanting to be an enforcer took over. Zimmerman willfully disobeyed, willfully put himself and Trayvon in a difficult and ultimately deadly situation resulting in the death of an innocent child.
>Trayvon was NOT DOINT ANYTHING WRONG. Trayvon did not have the luxury of protection. Trayvon also did not have the luxury to go home, or talk to a girl in the rain, or be outside past 7 pm based on one mans fear, obsession and willful defiance of reason and soon-to-arrive law-enforcement.
Do you believe that Trayvon was the one who was attacked first?
>Trayvon is not here to tell us his side of the story and Zimmerman lied many times. I do believe Trayvon was attacked first. Zimmermans attack began when he didn't stop following him or wait for the police he called. Zimmerman was attacking Trayvon's rights as a citizen once Zimmerman defied self-control. And a child who is fearful for their lives and who is heard to say "Get OFF, GET OFF" would surely put up a defense from a would be murderer/rapist/attacker. Just because Trayvon may have turned Zimmermans offense into a defense (aka Zimmerman lost the upperhand) doesn't give Zimmerman the right to call himself a victim nor should it have been rewarded with an acquittal.
Do you believe that Trayvon was only standing his ground?
>Yes. Trayvon was going home, didn't have a weapon and was being followed by an adult male. Trayvon started in flight mode and moved to fight mode seemingly. Zimmerman never would have had to "fight back" if he had stopped himself from being a perpetrator in the first place. And Zimmerman willfully and defiantly opted to become THE perpetrator.
Do you believe that Zimmerman either beat his own head into something hard or that Trayvon did that?
>I believe it was something different from both scenarios you imagine. I believe there was hard debris in the grass that Zimmermans head came in contact with during a fight or fall and he exaggerated the fight out of embarrassment. He was caught in several lies and Trayvon's body was several feet away from the sidewalk. The injuries did not show the type of violence that Zimmerman purports. They do not add up to the only scenarios that I have seen provided. Not all stories and situations with droplets of evidence are always correctly explained away easily or at all.
Do you believe that racists are waiting to kill Afro-Americans and hasve no fear of penalty if they do so?
>Yes. I do. Crime of Opportunity and Hate crimes.
>However, I am sure most do have a fear of penalty otherwise more would do it and those that do would do it more often. There are those that do not fear penalty and wear it as a badge though.
You do know that people have died at the hands of racists and bigots not caring about the laws and penalties many times over in this country and elsewhere, right? I don't think this particular case specifically fits your broad question. It does fall into a realm within it but not by the question on it's own.
I do believe from his past behavior that he had serious issues. His focus on blacks sure the hell doesn't easily point away from racism and prejudice now does it?
Do you believe that Zimmerman is totally without a conscience and killing Trayvon Martin has caused him no lasting guilt in his own mind?
>Yes. His smirks, his statements, his lies tell me all I need to know along with being responsible for killing a child with tea and skittles walking home from a store at 7 pm. Any guilt he may have is about the embarrassment of getting caught that he owns... but I'll say it here; any guilt he says he has is utter bullshit going forward.
Do you believe that past acts of violence against AfroAmericans necessarily mean this is a KKK wannabe attack?
>Past acts of violence against blacks (and other minorities) in America has a long history and comes in many forms. The KKK is not the only racist organization in this country and not everyone who is racist belongs to a racist organization. The KKK and other racists groups have definitely helped those who are racist feel a little bit or even very supported just by their sheer existence. I don't understand why this question shows up in your list however. Did someone say that this particular attack (Zimmerman killing Martin) is a KKK wannabe attack? I've never heard of a "wannabe KKK attack".
If someone wants to be "like" the KKK.... simply put... you're a racist or you have a very skewed idea of what racism is or is not.
(When I say you, I'm speaking generally)
Do you believe Zimmerman was protecting his life or not when he fired the gun?
>Yes, I do... but not for as simple a reason as your question represents.
I believe that Zimmerman believed his fearful, obsessive life was more precious than an innocent black child's life. Zimmerman had no patience to wait (because his mind was filled with fantasies and fear that he willfully let control him).
>A single second before Zimmerman made the leap that Trayvon was suspicious....NO ONE'S LIFE WAS ANYWHERE NEAR DANGER. At that judgement, Zimmermans shit-storm began.
>Zimmerman was safe, Zimmerman knew cops were coming, Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman CREATED the danger and ultimately he ENDED the life of an innocent child. An innocent black child named Trayvon Martin.
Do you believe that Zimmerman could have calmly said I have a gun so get off me and I will not shoot you?
>I don't believe Zimmerman could calmly do much at all. Obviously he couldn't wait for the cops and he couldn't stop following an innocent child. So is it possible he could have said it? Why YES, anything is possible. Is it PROBABLE, NO. I don't believe he was or is capable of such restraint and control.
Do you believe that Martin would not try to prevent Zimmerman from reaching for the gun?
>Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that if Martin got ahold of the gun that he would have fired it, pointed it and not fired... or simply thrown it out of the way? You can't know the answer to that but I can tell you for a fact that Zimmerman chose to fire that damn gun into an INNOCENT childs chest.
Do you believe Zimmerman yelled for help in a plot to play the victim?
>I do not believe it is Zimmerman yelling and if it was ever proved that he was the one then I would believe it was him and know that I was wrong and admit it.
However, I can "imagine" Zimmerman dramatizing the situation knowing that he was going to use his gun and inventing a victimhood. So yes, I can imagine it.
I would still stand by that Zimmermans own fears and obsession overtook him and he instigated then engaged in a situation of his own making.
It wouldn't change the fact that Zimmerman did not at anytime stop and control himself. He didn't do it when he was in his car, he didn't do it when the cops said he didn't need to follow him, he didn't do it when he knew the cops were on their way, he didn't do it when a confrontation took place, he didn't restrain himself long enough for the police to arrive. He still killed an innocent child who had no weapon and who was in fear for his life and his survival.
Do you believe Trayvon knew about the gun and still struck Zimmerman ?
>There is no way to know when and if Trayvon saw a gun. So since we are supposing.... let's say Zimmerman did pull or flash his gun. Then lets also say that Zimmerman was trying to scare Trayvon into submission which can be in the form of simple compliance. Let's say that Trayvon, scared out of his wits, didn't know what to do and tried to get away either by turning or speaking and let's say Zimmerman tried to grab Martin and knowing that Zimmerman had a gun tried to fight his way out of it.
What does your question have to do with the fact that Zimmerman, an adult with a FIRE ARM never once showed control or restraint and killed an innocent child?
>Here is a fact that needs constant repeating sadly enough: TRAYVON MARTIN WAS AN INNOCENT MINOR/CHILD WALKING HOME FROM THE STORE WITH CANDY AND TEA, TALKING TO A GIRL ON THE PHONE IN THE RAIN AROUND 7 PM AND HE WAS KILLED BECAUSE AN ADULT MALE HAD A GUN AND A SERIOUS, SERIOUS PROBLEM BASED ON HIS OWN FEARS, OBSESSIONS, IMAGINATION AND LACK OF SELF CONTROL AND WAS WILLFULLY DEFIANT.
janlyn
(735 posts)chowder66
(9,070 posts)Trayvon Martin should be having dinner with his family, talking on the phone, getting ready to go to school, dreaming about his future.
It is endlessly heartbreaking
burnodo
(2,017 posts)If Trayvon were white Zimmerman would be in a cell right now. No question.
Cha
(297,275 posts)9/11 operator. I think zimmerman's a fucking racist, stalker and a Liar who should have stayed in his damn truck.
http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/audio-zimmerman-used-racial-slur-during-911-call/
http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/03/20/george-zimmerman-calls-trayvon-martin-fcking-coon-911-call-audio/
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)I have an ear for languages and accents, (MOM was a medical Transcriptionist and often called on me to listen when she couldn't understand thick Hindi, southern, Ghanian, etc, accent) and I KNOW what the fuck I heard. + INFINITY,Cha!
Cha
(297,275 posts)
burnodo
(2,017 posts)We agree on this one
Cha
(297,275 posts)We sure do.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)I mean, I've listened to ten different versions. it's clearly an "oo" sound! I really don't understand people who hear it differently.
Mojo Electro
(362 posts)What he said very clearly had the pop of a "P" at the beginning. Also, the vowel song was clearly an "uh" sound and not an "ooo" sound.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)We have very different ears, you and me.
Mojo Electro
(362 posts)I hear he vowel as more of an "Uh" sound. But mainly, I hear the distinct pop of a word that starts with a "P".
burnodo
(2,017 posts)P would sound like "PUH" or "peh"...that sound is not part of that recording and I've listened to multiple audio versions
Cha
(297,275 posts)different sources who do.
Mojo Electro
(362 posts)I made a similar point recently also. People have come off the rails over this, and it doesn't bode well for critical thinking. What do people *actually* believe? (if they were really honest with themselves that is)
Little Star
(17,055 posts)always stands for any defendant, always! Doesn't matter if they are right or wrong.
I usually like to read her blog but regarding this case and her boy Zimmerman she can go pound sand!
Jeralyn and Georgie sitting in a tree.....
flvegan
(64,408 posts)No stone goes unturned I tell you.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Uh oh! Someone found fault with Obama! No stone goes unturned I tell you."
...Do you agree that the President should have expressed "empathy" for Zimmerman?
flvegan
(64,408 posts)Do you agree that I should be some sort of barometer as to what a man carrying the status and office of President of the United States should or shouldn't express?
"Do you agree that I should be some sort of barometer as to what a man carrying the status and office of President of the United States should or shouldn't express?"
...so you believe you should be a "barometer" for my opinions, but you can't say whether or not you agree with the sentiment expressed by Talk Left?
Seems to me you jumped into this thread just to be disruptive.
That's just silly.
Disruptive, me? I'm a good little poster.
Cha
(297,275 posts)I'd say its disruptive.
flvegan
(64,408 posts)But first, point out in the TOS where all questions must be answered and if same is not done, it's disruptive.
Glad you chimed in.
Cha
(297,275 posts)circle jerk.
flvegan
(64,408 posts)burnodo
(2,017 posts)One of Obama's laudable acts
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Cha
(297,275 posts)the President for not mentioning it?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)is a progressive blog or website. This Talk Left blog appears to be an example of that.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)But Jeralyn is a defense attorney.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Not a gun. Then when people defend you they can cover themselves in a flag and political belief and ignore what really goes on. When the govt does it there is no trial and it is always for national security. Don't question it, just smile and wave and remember - they are listening to you and watching you so be good boys and girls.
Cha
(297,275 posts)to drone on and on to distract the good and healing effect he had on the Nation.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110212657
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)It is one of the problems I have with being labelled left or liberal myself. I recognize that some people get away with murder.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)"As far as his avenue of retreat, he gave [that] up when he got his sorry ass out of his vehicle after being advised not to."
He wasn't advised not to get out of his car, but even if he was, how would getting out of his car involve giving up his avenue of retreat? Self-defense law doesn't require retreat before being attacked. Of course, this is all moot if Zimmerman attacked Martin and not vice-versa. Unfortunately for those who hate Zimmerman, the prosecution didn't come close to proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman attacked Martin. I am glad the jury figured that out.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)
