The grocery store, the gun, and my free speech rights

[Spaldeen]

Earlier today before I mowed the lawn and had to take some allergy pills, I was at the grocery store. There in the line behind me, when I was checking out, was someone carrying a gun on their hip. I didn't say anything. It's totally legal here in my state, after all. But, I just felt like they were somehow inhibiting my freedom to speech. I can't exactly figure out the how, or the why, or the what of the whole thing.

Maybe I was afraid to speak to the cashier? Maybe I thought that something would happen if I made a sudden move? Like if I pulled out my wallet too fast, the crazy person behind me would think I'm going for a knife to shank him, or somebody else? I mean, who needs a gun in the freaking grocery store? That meat you're buying is already dead, I promise you won't have to shoot it. I felt very conscious of all of my movements, like I was being watched, like a penned up animal at the zoo.

When I got out to my car, I just sat behind the steering wheel, angry. I wrapped my fingers tightly around the wheel, and just sat there, all tense, feeling uneasy, and flustered about the whole ordeal. I felt like I wasn't in control of the situation inside of that store at all.

I felt like I had been silenced. I felt like you would after being admonished by an authority figure, when you have no rebuttal. I felt like a child who had been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I felt like I was the one who had done something wrong.

Why did I feel this way? I'm still pissed about it. If I can figure out why, I can fight it next time. Sorry for venting.

[Jenoch]

1. How do you know the guy wasn't a LEO?

[Spaldeen]

3. I don't know if he was or not.

I really doubt it though, based on what he was wearing. His gun wasn't on any sort of utility belt or anything, just some crummy looking holster thing hanging off of a fanny pack. He was wearing just a plain white shirt that was slightly yellowed, and tucked into a pair of red shorts.

I was trying not to stare at him, as I didn't want to make him think I was suspicious, or give him some sort of power trip.

[Jenoch]

5. Out of curiosity, what state are you in?

I'm a gun owner. I do not open carry nor do I have a CCW. I think it is kind of stupid to do the open carry thing unless someone is out in the woods, desert, hunting, etc. I am not opposed to someone carrying a concealed weapon, at least here in Minnesota where every CCW holder goes through extensive training.

I have two brothers who are cops and I have been around guns my entire life. Someone standing in line behind me with a gun on their hip would not bother me. I would make a mental note of it and mind my own business as you seem to have done.

[Spaldeen]

19. I am in Missouri

I have never 'seen' anyone around me carrying a concealed weapon, so those don't bother me, I guess. It's not like I can see the gun or anything.

I wasn't raised around guns, though, so I hope you can understand why I wouldn't feel comfortable around someone carrying one in public, out in the open.

[Jenoch]

21. I understand that those without

any experience with guns can be fearful of them, fear of the unknown. That is one reason why I think everyone should go through a gun safety course. Learning about guns is helpful in any situation where a gun is present.

[Spaldeen]

25. Point taken,

but wouldn't it be easier to just make a law that you can't carry a weapon in public, unless you are law enforcement?

I assuming that most people are like me, and have no interest in taking a class in something they are never going to use. For example, say I wanted to carry a propane tank strapped to my back, and made everyone take a class about the dangers of carrying around a propane tank.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say, 'no propane tanks strapped to your back'?

[Jenoch]

40. I do not think it would be easier

to make laws saying guns cannot be carried in public. Illinois is the last state to have a CCW law. Over 40 states are 'shall issue'. That genie is out of the bottle.

There are gun accidents that happen all the time because people do not know how to handle guns. People are victims of these accidents many times even when it is not their gun. If they had some knowledge of gun safety, they might be able to save their life before an accident occurs.

You have no interest in taking a class, can I assume that also applies to CPR and other general knowledge that would help you in extreme situations?

[FLyellowdog]

69. I don't see your point...

"There are gun accidents that happen all the time because people do not know how to handle guns. People are victims of these accidents many times even when it is not their gun. If they had some knowledge of gun safety, they might be able to save their life before an accident occurs."

How will my knowing about gun safety protect me if the careless/incompetent/poorly trained gun owner lets his gun fall out of his pocket and it goes off and injures me? I have no control over those kinds of accidents.

My best bet is to leave the vicinity of someone who is openly carrying...which is why I think no one should be allowed to carry a CONCEALED weapon. They have a right to carry a gun but I should have the right to know who those people are. Then I can decide to stay close by or leave.

But that's just me.

[Jenoch]

80. Few guns will go off when they hit the ground.

If you are going to be afraid of something, be afraid of something that might actually happen.

There was a recent gun accident in my city. A 23 year old was showing off his gun to a group of young men. The gun owner left the magazine in his car. He thought the gun was unloaded. He said he tried to 'clear' the gun by pulling the trigger. It went off and killed a 16 year old in the group. If the gun owner had taken a gun safety course he would have treated the gun as loaded. He also would have know that taking out the magazine does not unload a semi-auto firearm. If the group surrounding him had taken a gun safety course they would have known enough to ask the gun owner if the gun was unloaded and to show them it was unloaded. If they saw the gun owner handling the gun in an unsafe manner, they would have corrected him. They would have told him to point the gun in a safe direction. There are all kinds of reasons to have a working knowledge of guns and gun safety and there is NO reason to oppose such knowledge.

You have your right to your opinion of CCW. The law disagrees with you in all 50 states.

[daleanime]

136. So non-gun owners have the right to have no choice....

[Jenoch]

161. Huh? Choice of what?

[bahrbearian]

180. Living in a world without cowards.

[friendly_iconoclast]

181. That makes little sense...

[Red Mountain]

225. I think Bahr is saying.....

a lot of these types of open/concealed carry types are scared. All the time. Did he really need a pistol to feel secure shopping for groceries?

If so, there may be other issues.

[tumtum]

228. That would be your opinion only, and a bad one at that.

[Eleanors38]

297. Typically, if someone is required (or chooses) to not carry...

in some locations, the weapon is vulnerable to the comparatively common crime of auto break & enter or car theft (the most practical place to leave an unattended gun), hence why many choose to keep the arm on there selves where law permits.

Curious, but I see more fearful comments about guns than fearful comments from gun-owners, esp. here in DU.

[Fumesucker]

316. Last fall I had a gun owner point a high powered hunting rifle at me

Nothing deliberate, he was just excited because this fortysomething guy had his first buck in the back of his pickup and was paying zero attention to where his weapon was pointed, I had no idea whether the gun was still loaded, safety on and so forth so I exited the area rapidly.

Was I wrong to be afraid of having a rifle that had just killed a deer I could clearly see with his eyes glazing over pointed at my person?

When I read things like I see on negligentdischarge dot com it's obvious that guns and gun owners are not perfect, they make mistakes like all other humans, those mistakes are sometimes lethal.

http://negligentdischarge.com/

[Eleanors38]

317. Anytime a gun, loaded or not, is pointed at you there is cause for concern...

It's happened to me.

It strikes me as peculiar that someone with a holstered handgun can strike so much fear into others, even as that armed individual is accused of "fearful" and "paranoia." A gun so carried is pointing down and out of the hands of the bearer. Frankly, I worry more about traversing the busy parking lot of a grocery store than someone who is packing in the check-out line.

The hunter in question needs some safety lessons. Three yrs. ago, a hunting companion offered to show his SKS semi-auto. He removed the mag and handed it to me. I routinely worked the action and a live round flipped out into the guy's lap. And to think, he wanted to borrow my rifle since I had just taken a big buck, and he thought the weapon-type was the main reason why!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

115. There's another solution which might be easier than making another law.

Just move to Chicago where guns have been banned for years and no one other than cops are allowed to carry firearms.

[Pelican]

147. It might be easier for you...

... but why should someone have to change because you have a problem with it?

I mean it without snark. In the end, it is your problem and something you should deal with instead of forcing others to conform to your personal fears.

[HiPointDem]

31. oh it's the zimmerman defender, here to explain everything to us. thanks, zimmy-defender-man!

[Jenoch]

37. Please point to any

post I have written where I have defended Zimmerman. This thread is not about Zimmerman, it is about somebody open carrying a gun in a store in Missouri.

(I am on record on these threads saying Zimmerman should not have been armed with anything other than a cell phone and a can of pepper spray for self-defense.)

[HiPointDem]

92. ha

[Jenoch]

125. What a brilliant reply.

You accuse me of something and then cannot back it up. Typical of you.

[HiPointDem]

128. ha-ha.

[SlimJimmy]

89. I just find it kinda funny that your user name is a weapons manufacturer.

[HiPointDem]

95. i think you addressed that to the wrong person. my user name is the name of a neighborhood i

once lived in.

you can find it funny all you like, but the name has nothing to do with guns.

i find it funny that that's the association you came up with, though.

i could say that i find it funny your nick is a burglary tool and a tasteless snack.

[SlimJimmy]

102. No, I addressed it to the right person. I find it funny that you didn't know that

Hi-point was a well known gun manufacturer when you picked the name. Considering the fact that you seem to have some kind of thing concerning firearms.

Whatever, you know now.

[HiPointDem]

109. i'm not interested in guns. i'm interested in neighborhoods, families, people & social conditions.

therefore i didn't have the knowledge of firearms manufacturers you clearly consider highly important.

[SlimJimmy]

198. I don't consider gun manufacturers highly important. Personally, I wouldn't

own a Hi-point weapon due to some quality issues. I just found it curious that you would take the name of a gun manufacturer when you clearly have issues with firearms. It's really not as big a deal to me as it is to you.

Have a nice day

[HiPointDem]

211. "It's really not as big a deal to me as it is to you." says the person who brought it up.

[SlimJimmy]

277. I brought it up as a funny aside. You're the one carying the banner of outrage.

Let it go, man. Let it go.

[HiPointDem]

130. i find it funny you can't keep the posts straight. in your righteous rush to defend your buddies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3305588

[AnotherMcIntosh]

142. Point taken.

[kestrel91316]

33. We aren't afraid of the guns, per se. We're afraid of the unhinged,

angry, short-tempered, judgemental, racist, sexist nut jobs who are obsessed with using their Precious to intimidate everyone around them.

[Jenoch]

58. I don't make assumptions such as those

you seem to.

[kestrel91316]

94. Oh, I don't assume that about EVERYONE who carries a gun

openly. But I do give them a good looking over and then decide if they warrant further concern.

I think it is safest to assume that people who need their Precious at all times, like small children need their binkie or pacifier, have some serious issues that might make them dangerously unstable - unless I have a reason to believe otherwise. Better safe than sorry.

[jeff47]

45. I'm not afraid of the guns. I'm afraid of the morons who are so delusional

that they think they should carry a gun around wherever they go.

That kind of psychological dysfunction, coupled with a firearm, can turn an unfortunate situation into a deadly one.

[Jenoch]

60. I don't make the assumptions that you seem to.

[jeff47]

64. That's your failing.

Every person I've met who decided it was a good idea to always go around with a gun on their hip had significant psychological issues. That's why they wanted that gun on their hip.

[Jenoch]

70. Not a failing, I am just not prone to stereotypes.

I make it a practice to be aware of my surroundings. I only let fear enter the picture when it is warranted. The mere presence of a gun does not scare me unless it is pointed at me or someone else near me.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

154. Yes, it's a failing, and it's aberrant.

Gunlovers need to understand that they're the outliers, and that their fetish isn't acceptable to society.

[Jenoch]

164. I'm simply not afrqid of guns.

There are a lot more things to be aware of that will harm you, such as the guy driving next to you.

[truebluegreen]

190. I'm not afraid of guns so much

as the people who feel the need to carry them around. There are exceptions of course, like LEOs, but even those people are suspect in my eyes since too many of them are drawn to that career for the wrong reasons.

I live in a dangerous place and wouldn't dream of carrying a gun since it would only make my situation more perilous, not less.

[treestar]

195. Why not?

They can kill people accidentally. The carrier might be crazy, the next Adam Lanza. They are dangerous and should inspire fear.

[Jenoch]

306. Your post is why in that particular situation I would keep an eye on the guy with a gun, and

respond accordingly. I would not go into hysterics and lose my cool.

[jeff47]

192. It's not a stereotype when you actually know the people

And when you do, it quickly becomes apparent why they want that gun on their hip all the time. And why that's incredibly dangerous.

[Pelican]

149. You don't see the circular logic in that statement?

[jeff47]

294. No, because being "afraid of guns" would mean I was afraid of guns wielded by soldiers

police and so on. I'm not.

I'm afraid of the crazy yahoos who think they must be prepared for a writhing throng of evil criminals to pop up at any moment.

[Pelican]

305. What about me?

I''m an active duty Soldier living a fine life in Afghanistan at the moment. I've got extensive training on long guns and hand guns. Shoot/ don't shoot yada yada yada...

If you saw me, you might even think I look like a Soldier but you wouldn't know for sure.

If you saw me at Walmart and for a brief moment you saw one of my 9mms as I reached for the top shelf... Would you be concerned?

[Jenoch]

307. Thank you for what you do.

I have a nephew who spent 15 months in Iraq. I am glad he was not sent to Afghanistan. He is now home and in school.

[jeff47]

319. It depends on why you want that gun on your hip.

If you're terrified of roving bands of criminals that you must be prepared to gun down, then yes. Because if you believe that, you are insane.

[Pelican]

320. Ok..

Not really scared and no I don't think that the world is Mad Max.

Do I think there is a small but real chance that a situation could arise where I would wish I had it to preserve my life or the life of someone else? Sure...

[jeff47]

323. So you just believe in fairy tales then? How reassuring. (nt)

[Pelican]

324. So...

If I were to produce multiple stories where a weapon was used to the benefit of the owner, you would immediately apologize for your dismissive elitist ignorance correct?

[Logical]

56. Much better things to spend time on. n-t

[Jenoch]

63. Much better than learning something that could

save your life or save the life of your loved ones?

[primavera]

112. Or cost your life or the lives of your loved ones

As is statistically waaaaay more likely to be the case.

[Jenoch]

126. How does taking a gun safety

course 'cost your life or the lives of your loved ones'?

[Logical]

186. Some people want NOTHING to do with guns. And do not need a class so they have....

do deal with idiots that want to Open Carry. The open carry idiots are just showing off. I have a CC license. If I carry, it does not bother anyone who dislikes guns. I do not want to bother anyone who does not like guns.

So I guess you want a class on chain saw safety, swimming, illegal drugs, trampolines, bee stings, also?

Many people go their whole life without needing or interacting wit a gun.

[tumtum]

208. I too have a concealed handgun license, I carry when I leave the house for any reason.

My wife does also.

I don't get the people who carry open, I see it quite often where I live.

I guess some people like showing off.

[Jenoch]

252. I do not open carry nor do I have

a CCW permit. I think knowledge of all of the things that you mentioned is a good thing for everyone. It would be a good thing if someone is going to operate a chainsaw for instance, to know how to operate it, if a class is offered, it would be good to take it.

[Brigid]

87. Forcing people who loathe guns to take a gun class?

Yeah, that'll work.

[Jenoch]

123. Who said anything about forcing anyone to do anything?

It's the smart thing to do of course, but there a lot of smart things people should do, but don't.

[primavera]

118. I understand that those without experience with BSL4 viruses can be fearful of them

We probably ought to train everyone on how to use positive pressure personnel suits and decontamination procedures, don't you think?

[Jenoch]

129. I'm not sure

that would be an effective use of resources, do you?

[bahrbearian]

179. Everyone should be fearful of guns and fearful of those who parade them and stroke them, so if some

Peacock is strutting his gun in a store , the 60 year lady should take a course on gun safety, No, I liked it better when gun owners keep their penis extenstions at home . I own guns but cowards parade them.

[friendly_iconoclast]

182. Would this be an example of an acceptable stereotype?

[Eleanors38]

298. No, just acceptable and sanctioned on DU.

[Jenoch]

308. As I have said several times,

I am no fan of open carry in most situations. That 60 year old lady should have learned about guns and gun safety long before she reached the age of 60.

[MH1]

187. I don't think it's the "experience" with guns that's the issue, but the experience with the carrier.

A perfect stranger walking around with a gun? I have no idea if the guy is trained or not. I have no idea how many screws are loose in that guy's head. I have no idea if he just had an argument with his girlfriend, his spouse, or both and is currently in a riled-up mood. I have no idea if he just banged down a couple shots of whiskey or toked some pcp (or whatever is the modern equivalent).

Any sane person has fear when there is a reason for it. Someone carrying a very dangerous object very near you when you have no idea what the frame is, is a dangerous situation that should rationally be feared.

The only "gun safety course" that would help in that case would be the one that tells you how to react when an armed stranger decides for whatever reason, or no reason at all, that he wants to use that weapon.

[Jenoch]

309. Unless the guy in the store showed

some irrational actons, I would not fear him, but I would be aware of him and his actions. The mere presence of a gun does not automatically frighten me.

[MH1]

321. To some, openly carrying a gun in a grocery store

is the first irrational action, causing one to be wary and alert for the next one.

YMMV. As it apparently does.

[Jenoch]

322. I would be surprised to

see someone open carrying in a grocery store. I would be wary and alert, as I have indicated. I would not be particularly afraid unless the guy said or did something else to cause that fear. I would look around to see if anyone was with him or if anyone else was open carrying. I would not call the manager or the cops because of what the OP observed.

[LWolf]

191. In this case, I don't think

it was fear of the gun. It was fear of the person WITH the gun.

[Jenoch]

255. That is why it is

a good thing to be aware of your surroundings and those people who are near you. There would be no reason to panic, in my opinion. Just be aware of that guy's movements. I am no fan of open carry, but it would not paralyze me in fear either.

[thucythucy]

302. You shouldn't assume everyone who is fearful of guns

are "those without any experience."

What about those who have been victims of gun crimes, or their loved ones?

People like that have certainly had "experience with guns" and might damn well be afraid of them anyway.

[Jenoch]

310. Experience in the manner you suggest

is not what I intended. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I meant an understanding of guns, how they work, and gun safety in a safe setting, not in the manner you suggested.

[thucythucy]

326. I assumed as much

but felt a need to point out the distinction.

Thank you for clarifying.

[dflprincess]

49. Minnesota also allows open carry

I saw some moron at the Apple Valley 4th of July parade with one on his hip. He apparently didn't notice that everyone in his immediate vicinity moved to other viewing spots. If I were half as brave as I like to think I am I would have asked him if he had spoken to his doctor about Viagra.

As far as the "extensive training" those who want concealed carry permits go through, I know someone who took the training just to see what it was like (and never bothered to get a permit) and said that what he learned from the class was the first clue that someone shouldn't be given a permit is the fact they think they need one. And, based on the my cousin who has one and claims to always carry a gun, I'd have to agree with that assessment.

Besides the training, they should have to take the MMPI and speak to a psychiatrist.

[Jenoch]

54. It sounds like the person

you know who took the class is doing some profiling and stereotyping of their own.

I am aware of the gun laws in Minnesota. I am not in favor of open carry in most situations. It is not helpful to the cause of RKBA. If someone wishes to open carry, they should get the CCW and conceal carry in my opinion.

If getting a recommendation from a psychiatrist were a requirement for CCW I am sure it would be struck down in the courts as being an invasion of privacy.

[Jenoch]

57. It sounds like the person

you know who took the class is doing some profiling and stereotyping of their own.

I am aware of the gun laws in Minnesota. I am not in favor of open carry in most situations. It is not helpful to the cause of RKBA. If someone wishes to open carry, they should get the CCW and conceal carry in my opinion.

If getting a recommendation from a psychiatrist were a requirement for CCW I am sure it would be struck down in the courts as being an invasion of privacy.

[dflprincess]

65. The current law does require a mental health history check

so why not be proactive and require people take the MMPI and get an evaluation?

[Jenoch]

73. I am not aware of all the legal issues involved

but I think a couple would be cost and privacy.

What current law requires a mental health history check? The background check would be failed if someone was committed to a mental health facility against their will, ect. but the problem is there is no database with all of that information. That is going to be one of the problems with the universal background check laws.

[dflprincess]

91. The conceal carry law requires the check and the form for a permit to carry asks for the information

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/administrative/Documents/Carry%20Application.pdf

I'm inclined to think if the MMPI were required most applications would be turned down as the applicant's results would probably indicate they were delusional/paranoid and/or suffered from very low self esteem.

[Jenoch]

312. You are painting with a broad brush

with your statement that most applicants would be turned down if they took an MMPI. My father went through the course and got his permit. He did it just because he could. He never carries his gun, he only occasionally has it in his vehicle. You are sterotyping all CCW holders howithout any basis other than your own prejudices.

[dflprincess]

331. My own prejudices and the couple people I know who have permits

and are insane enough to think they actually need to carry a gun. Neither one has a good reason to do so but they are both very insecure blow hards who political views can only be described as paranoid.

There are very few people who have a legitmate reason to carry a gun either on their person or in their car.

[Jenoch]

334. You wrote that

you believe most people who apply for a CCW would be denied the permit if an MMPI were required. Please provide anything other than your own prejudices and the 'couple of people you know' to back up your belief.

The current 'shall issue' law does not require an applicant to prove why they need the permit. That was the old law.

[dflprincess]

342. If the MMPI wouldn't keep people from getting a permit, why not require it?

That way it may weed of the "very few" that should not be issued a permit for mental health reasons.

As far as an applicant not having to prove why they need a permit, it may be the law but it doesn't mean it makes any sense. Paranoia, low self esteem or a need to compensate for something else really aren't legitiamate reasons to carry a weapon. Anyone who is walking around that fearful or insecure needs to get help before they hurt themselves or someone else.

Please feel free to explain to me why the average person would need to carry a gun with them.

[Jenoch]

343. If the MMPI wouldn't keep people from getting a permit, why not require it?"

Requiring the MMPI seems cost prohibative and also sounds a bit premtive without a basis.

"Paranoia, low self esteem or a need to compensate for something else really aren't legitiamate reasons to carry a weapon. Anyone who is walking around that fearful or insecure needs to get help before they hurt themselves or someone else." Where is this coming from? If you have an objective source that explains this, I will read it.

"Please feel free to explain to me why the average person would need to carry a gun with them." I will not presume to guess nor explain this. It is not required by law. I am also not educated in this area, are you?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

311. That really explains it

The guy sounds just like the type of dbag who'd shoot his balls off.

[rdharma]

4. One way to find out is call 911 and report a suspicious a-hole with a gun.

"Looks like he's on drugs or something....... maybe going to hold up the grocery store!"

[Jenoch]

7. Calling the cops with

a statement such as the one you suggest without any real indication he is going to rob a store is inviting an investigation into your own life. I don't need the extra hassle.

[rdharma]

9. Sure! The charge?

"I was in fear for my life!" See how that works?

[Jenoch]

13. They don't need a charge.

The person making the call is going to be investigated as well. The cops don't know the situation and need to figure out the relationship between the guy making the call and the guy with the gun. The cops always assume people are lying to them, they have to.

[rdharma]

15. Riiiight!

I see you don't have any experience in this area. I do.

[Jenoch]

18. I don't have any experience at what?

What is your experience and where?

[rdharma]

23. With dealing with a-holes who like to show off their gatt in public.

Bona fides? Want my pin number for my bank account and SSN next?

[Jenoch]

26. You claimed to have some sort of experience

at something and wrote that I did not. What was your point if you are reluctant to answer the question?

[rdharma]

101. Point is ...... I don't need to prove my bona fides to you.....

They try that one in the gungeon all the time.

Sniffin'!

[friendly_iconoclast]

183. Lots of self-declared experts in the Gungeon, and I've noticed something about them.

The ones that really do have qualifications will freely state them, while the "all hat and no cattle"
types tend to get all huffy and/or resort to doubletalk when challenged...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

189. +1

sniffin ... wtf ??

[rdharma]

193. No. Not true. Because you can be anybody you want to on the internets.

I could claim to be a black small business owner or some slight female of Asian descent who are gun huggers and think that Zimmerman was the victim of the Sanford shooting. RW trolls in the gungeon do that sort of thing all the time.

Sorry, that "establish your identity" doesn't work with me. I have no need to "prove" my experience or background to you. If I told you, you would declare your skepticism in hopes that I would give you even more information about myself to convince you I was telling the truth.

In short, you're just sniffing....... and it's obvious!

But by all means, continue. It tickles!

[friendly_iconoclast]

200. Since you've repeatedly advocated deceit on this thread, we've no reason to trust you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023305313#post137

37. Luckily I have a way of persuading dispatchers.
And it wouldn't be considered a "nuisance" call.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023305313#post114

114. The paranoid a-hole that feels the need to open carry is the one who needs help.
Last edited Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:01 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
And I'd be more than happy to see he gets the proper "attention"!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023305313#post43

43. Wanna bet? I can articulate "my suspicions" pretty well.
And I guarantee....... they will check it out!

[rdharma]

207. No "deceit here. If I see a nutjob gun exhibitionist, I'm going to report it. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

231. And when asked if they're doing anything illegal, would you lie?

[rdharma]

235. No, I'd just report things as I see them.

You disappoint me. Are you trying to use the "broken record" technique to get the answer you want?

It won't work on me. Does that ever REALLY work for you?

[friendly_iconoclast]

236. And if it's legal where you are, you'd be making a nuisance call.

[rdharma]

240. No. Not if what I saw was "suspicious"!

Give the needle on your record player a bump, eh?!!

[SlimJimmy]

278. "Yes, Maam ... he's in line at the checkout and is openly carrying a gun."

"And he's reaching into his pocket." "Hello, ... hello?"

[friendly_iconoclast]

291. You don't happen to belong to a neighborhood watch, do you?

A guy who's been in the news lately belonged to one, and he used to make
911 calls like that all the time. 'Great minds think alike', and all that...

[rdharma]

292. Yup! Great minds think alike.......open carry

[TheAmeriCAN]

314. lol

[Sedona]

117. "The cops always assume people are lying "?

Unless you're from a South American family with a German name, then they believe every lie you can dream up to cover your ass after murdering an unarmed minority teenager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODESSA

[Skittles]

174. they investigated Trayvon instead of the gun humper

[Jenoch]

176. They investigated Martin

because he was killed in an unfortunate incident.

In retrospect, it appears Zimmerman should not have been involved in a neighborhood watch program. He certainly should not have been carrying a gun that night, nor should he have gotten out of his vehicle.

[Skittles]

178. "unfortunate incident"?

he was targeted, stalked and murdered for no reason - perhaps the person who did THAT should have been investigated

[ceonupe]

32. No in many states unless you specificly state he is causin an issue they

Won't roll a police car because some guy had a gun on him. The police and dispatchers know open carry is within the law so now they will ask for details on a call like that and will follow up on false reports.


There was a person in Cary, NC that was doing exactly what you are advocating and they refused to stop until being orders by the court with restraining order to stop. (This person called 911 on everyone they saw an un-uniformed person with a gun)

[rdharma]

105. Riiiiight!

Like I said,........ I appreciate your feigned concern. But not buying it.

[Spaldeen]

11. You know, they already tell us to do that when being pulled over!

They say you can call 911, and the dispatch can tell you that yes indeed, that is a police officer pulling you over, you can relax.

I wonder how their dispatch would like a bunch of phone calls inquiring about the person in the grocery store with a gun, whether they are law enforcement or not? You might be on to something.

Maybe if I just faked like I was calling the police, so they knew I had a checkmate to their gun-- my phone.

[onehandle]

2. If it wasn't a LEO, then he got what he wanted.

People who carry guns around want you uncomfortable. Makes them feel less scared of their own shadows.

[Spaldeen]

6. I was afraid of that.

I think that's why I was so upset when I got to the car. I felt like he had won!

I'm just not sure how should I react if there is a next time, so I don't feel like I'm being stifled, trampled, or pent-up. Do you say something? Do you make eye contact? I might have to practice in front of a mirror, so I can look confident.

[The Straight Story]

10. I generally just shrug

Living where I do you assume a lot of folks are carrying a weapon concealed with no permit.

Those are the ones that bother me. Someone with a holster and showing is most likely obeying the law (assuming they are not a felon and such) and aren't the type I would worry about.

[onehandle]

14. Ignore them.

It's only a matter of time until gun control laws start to send their old west fetish into the dustbin of history.

[Jenoch]

67. I would have looked at him,

glanced down at the gun, and asked him "You expectin' trouble?"

That would have opened up a conversation and then you may have gotten a better read on the guy. Your posts do sound as if you are quite fearful of guns themselves and not just the people carrying them.

I heard a story on the radio in Phoenix about how a woman in a restaurant asked the restaurant manager to ask the cop sitting at the next table to remove his gun and put it in his squad. The woman was afraid of the gun, a gun on the hip of a LEO.

[thucythucy]

304. And he says,

"Are you lookin' for trouble, punk?"

What's your reply to that?

I will NOT engage in any conversation with a person openly carrying a firearm unless I know them. Just like it's common sense to assume all guns are loaded unless you're absolutely certain otherwise, it's also common sense to assume any non-LEO openly carrying is a powder-keg waiting for "an incident" to use their weapon.

That's all the "gun safety" I need to know, thank you.

[Jenoch]

313. You are showing your prejudice and fear.

I would make eye contact with the guy, let him know I see his weapon and sure, I'd engage him in conversation. If he responded with what you say, I would indicate I was not looking for trouble, just that I saw his gun and was interested. I might ask him about the make and model. I would not assume he was on the edge of shooting up the store. If he responded in a manner that indicated he was on the edge, I would take action. It is not common sense to assume anyone with an open carry gun on their hip is going to take it and shoot up the place. That would be going way over the top without the information to back it up.

You are right about one thing, I always assume a gun is loaded unless proven otherwise. It is not common sense however. Too many people assume a gun is unloaded when they handle it. That is what leads to tragedies.

[thucythucy]

327. "If he responded in a manner

that indicated he was on edge, I would take action."

What action would you take?

I stand by my point. I assume anyone with a gun is dangerous, unless I know them personally, or until I can be assured otherwise, just as I assume every gun is loaded and act accordingly. I'm not going to engage some total stranger with a gun in conversation, for just this reason. While statistically I'm sure the vast majority of open carry encounters don't result in a shootout, all it takes is one gun shot wound to the chest to ruin your whole day. Hence my caution. This isn't prejudice, it's common sense.

You may be so accustomed to the sight of guns carried openly that it doesn't at all faze you, but there are millions of people who aren't, hence this OP and the many responses. I would argue that yours is a false sense of security, which lessons your alertness around guns, which may well end up costing you someday.

[Jenoch]

328. I seem to be making the same point over and over in this thread.

The mere sight of a gun on the hip of someone in line at the grocery store would not send me into hysterics or question my free speech rights. If I thought the guy was going to rob the store or shoot up the place i would back off, get out of the store, and do what I could to help others in the store. I have never seen anyone open carrying in a store as described by the OP. It is not a common occurence where I live.

I assume every gun I see is loaded until it is proven to me that it is unloaded. A gun in a holster does not frighten me.

I am not suggesting that everyone needs to have the same response or attitude as i do.

"...lessons your alertness around guns, which may well end up costing you someday." Where are you getting this? Go back and read my posts. I said I would be aware of the guy with the gun, keep an eye on him and his actions, and take appropriate action, if needed.

[treestar]

196. Maybe comment on it

there could be a reaction from the people around that teaches him something.

But you were probably right no to, not knowing how he'd react.

[tumtum]

209. Next time? Just ignore them.

Chances are that they're harmless and no threat to you.

[Oldtimeralso]

152. Even LEO's can make me nervous.

I was in a restaurant once and had to use the restroom, I was sitting in a stall minding my own business and doing my business when a LEO can in and used the next stall. He apparently hung up his belt and lowered his pants when I heard a crash as his belt fell to the floor and his service weapon came out of the holster and slid across the floor and ended up between my feet. He asked me to hand it back carefully as there was "one in the pipe". If that weapon had fired wen dropped I might not be here to write this post.
PS two uncles and three cousins were LEOs.

[theHandpuppet]

244. Carrying a pistol around in public serves only two purposes

To intimidate or to kill. The average, sane, non-weaponized citizen can only hope that the locked and loaded among us intend the former and not the latter. Since none of us are privy as to any gun toter's state of mind, I can't imagine NOT feeling uncomfortable by their very presence.

[baldguy]

8. Just say, "Hey, pal. Sorry about your penis."

[rdharma]

12. But give him a compliment first.....

"Nice gun....... sorry about your small penis!"

The charge would be false reporting....... and they have NOTHING!

[dflprincess]

51. +1000

[Contrary1]

71. That's good, but...

It wouldn't work on the 20 something female toting one around the local grocery store the other day.

Looked a bit silly. Her holster hung well below her short shorts, and the ass cheeks they failed to cover.

Does the stand your ground defense cover being laughed at in public?

[DainBramaged]

254. In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered

by male strangers.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

[Jenoch]

131. Your idea sure would defuse the situation and make the guy in MO MUCH more comfortable.

[jimboss]

16. When people do this they just want attention

pathetic

[rdharma]

22. I say give 'em some attention by summoning the police.

[jimboss]

35. I'm not really sure what I would have done

One thing I'm sure , I would have asked to speak to the store manager.

[geckosfeet]

53. Yeah. Call a guy with a gun, to investigate, a guy with gun.

[rdharma]

55. Correction: Call a guy/guys with a badge to check out a nut with a gun!

There..... I fixed it for you!

[Lizzie Poppet]

75. Because the badge makes it all okay!

Just ask the Occupy movement...

[rdharma]

77. I participated in the occupy movement.

The badge gives them the authority to do something useful for the citizenry...... like checking out nut jobs with guns.

[geckosfeet]

90. You fixed it for you. You did nothing for me.

[rdharma]

97. As Grumpy Cat would say........

"Too bad, so sad!"

[Brigid]

17. I was in a Burger King once,

and was sitting there eating my lunch when I noticed a guy at a nearby table had a holstered gun. I finished up and got out as fast as I could. I just didn't feel comfortable. Who the hell needs a gun to eat a freaking Whopper?

[Spaldeen]

20. Maybe he was like this guy

and thought is food wasn't quite dead yet

[The Straight Story]

24. Possible they went to gun range earlier and didn't want to leave it in the car

Where some criminal could steal it (then they would be called irresponsible fr leaving it there....)

[rdharma]

27. Well, I'd have a cop summoned to see if that's the case! nt

[The Straight Story]

30. Perhpas we should have cops pat down everyone out to eat

Since it seems most criminals conceal their guns. Just an idea to help make people 'feel' more safe.

[rdharma]

34. No. Just a-holes who feel the need for open carry.

So people can feel more safe and less threatened by such morons.

[The Straight Story]

36. Ah. so 'Feel' safe is important, being safe isn't.

Makes sense I guess.

[rdharma]

41. No, it doesn't. But neither did your ridiculous suggestion to pat everybody down.

What makes sense is making it clear to a-holes like this gatt brandishing SOB that it's unacceptable behavior.

I guarantee I won't accept it!

[friendly_iconoclast]

202. "I guarantee I won't accept it!" Hence the advocacy of profiling and baseless calls to police.

[rdharma]

206. Profiling? The a-hole is prancing around exhibiting his gun!

No "profiling" here. He's already proven he's an armed paranoid nutjob! And reporting as armed nutjob to the police is not "baseless".

[ceonupe]

39. You are from NC right?

You do know that when u call 911 about a man with a gun they will ask for details and most times if the person has it holstered and not actively breaking the law they will not even roll a police car.


The old days of trolling gun owners for carrying in compliance with the law are going away. I would not be surprised if a person did what you advocate for am everytime they see a person with a gun they would get a counciling session with the police to understand the law and then the courts like the person in Cary if they continue to abuse the 911 system.

[rdharma]

43. Wanna bet? I can articulate "my suspicions" pretty well.

And I guarantee....... they will check it out!

[ceonupe]

52. And everytime you call they will record you.

By that I mean even if you called if block your cell phone they will still id the call.

Overtime it will be clear that you call to report lawful gun owners just for carrying. It won't take long I bet after 5-6 in one year they will have screen pops on the 911 computers for your calls.

But yeah if you call to report a person with a gun they will ask for details in a specific way. They will ask if its holstered, where you are and if the person is doing anything against the law. Remember lying to the police could get you into trouble.

If the gun is holstered and its a legal place and the person is not actively breaking the law they prob wont roll a police car.


Advocating calling the police every-time you are some with a gun is not a good policy and a great way in NC atleast to end up on a list of "nuisance" 911 callers

[rdharma]

62. I'm not worried about that. I know how the system works.

But thanks for your feigned concern.

[ceonupe]

104. I know we don't agree on many issues around guns and the 2nd

Good thing there's more on DU than just those topics.

But I can say that I as a gun owner and ccw holder have also felt uncomfortable around some of my fellow gun owners who improperly carry their guns.

Let me explain. Not using a gun pocket/purse holster/cover to prevent an negligent discharge. (Remember most personal defense handguns don't have external safetys) (the Cumberland count sheriff in charge of the jail almost killed himself when his backup gun (a revolver) placed in a bag had an ink pen thru the trigger guard and fired a round.

Also I'm not a fan of open Cary personally because of the potential for acting people. Yeah I said that. While open city is legal I do know that for people unfamiliar with the law or just an aversion to guns it paralyzes and communication and sharing of ideas between people or interaction.

So yeah open carry legal. But outside of certain circumstances I personally don't do it. (I have ccw and even now there are actually a lot places I can carry that I don't) but yes late night on the road at a gas station you can bet in armed and it will be concealed.

[The Straight Story]

78. I guess it would keep cops busy though so robbers, rapists, etc would like it scared people

called the cops for no reason.

[rrneck]

100. Yeah. Zimmerman did that a lot too. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

184. He did, didn't he? Funny seeing a DUer endorse that particular practice...

[tumtum]

210. "I can articulate" =lie.

Do that enough times and you'll be arrested for giving false information to a police officer.

[SQUEE]

134. Luckily I live in a place where the police dispatcher would have explaind our state laws.

All while rolling her eyes at your ignorance, after the 3rd or 4th false call of the 911 system, you'd be getting the visit. People like guns and are very comfortable with them here and I regularly spend range time and training facilities with our local LEOs.

Just another law abiding gun grabber til your not. Harassment is harassment. And from your proclaimed knowledge of the laws and mechanics of weapons themselves, all you are doing is advocating a criminal act.

[rdharma]

137. Luckily I have a way of persuading dispatchers.

And it wouldn't be considered a "nuisance" call.

[SQUEE]

143. So, you would lie?

again, you are openly advocating criminal mischief.
It would be quite obvious to the good folks on the other end of the line what you were doing, and I know for a fact it would get you a visit from the local LEO's.

[rdharma]

144. No. I wouldn't lie.

I would articulate a reasonable cause for concern ....... there's a big difference!

[SQUEE]

148. You are not as clever as you think.

And where you live that may work, here you would see the judge, as you should. The local PD has no patience with this type of games.
A few newcomers from away have mad the attempt to influence the culture here, via nuisance calls and such. The County has made them painfully aware this is not acceptable.
Stop advocating criminal acts.

[rdharma]

150. Reporting a suspicious person with a gun is not a criminal act.

[SQUEE]

153. Tiresome

your hook is quite empty. I have reloads to do. Enjoy your night, and stop advocating criminal acts.

[rdharma]

156. Check those powder levels!

[SQUEE]

160. Always, twice actually.

Safety is no accident.

[friendly_iconoclast]

185. George Zimmerman used to do that a lot, too... n/t

[rdharma]

194. So you see..... it works!

Was George Zimmerman ever "dressed down" by the Sanford PD for nuisance reporting?

[tumtum]

212. "Luckily I have a way of persuading dispatchers"=lie.

Do that enough times and you'll be arrested for giving false information to a police officer.

Where I live, short of someone waving their gun around, police won't respond. Would you tell the dispatcher that the person was waving around their gun even if they weren't?

[rdharma]

215. "Short of waving a gun around, police won't respond" - What kind of backward place is that?!!!!

Sounds like Somalia.....

And welcome to DU!

[tumtum]

220. Thanks for the welcome.

Where I live, it's perfectly legal to open carry, and unless someone is breaking the law, the cops won't respond to someone openly carrying a gun.

[Eleanors38]

300. I've seen pro 2A people thrown of DU for purportedly advocating criminal mischief...

...but such advocacy is acceptable when directed against lawful gun-owners.

[Skittles]

42. paranoid gun humping cowards need them, Brigid

yup

[billh58]

28. Gunners wear their

guns in public pretty much for the same reason that people turn their car stereos up to full volume with the windows down: they want to be noticed, and if it pisses people off so much the better. It's the in-your-face-and-fuck-you-if-you-don't-like-it attitude of cowards and bullies -- until they have their ass handed to them.

[HiPointDem]

29. i recently had the same experience in a store. first time i've ever seen anyone with a handgun

inside a store.

it really disturbed me. i had an urge to call the police and report him, of all things, though i knew it was ridiculous (& he wasn't doing anything illegal). but i felt like it was wrong.

it didn't help that the guy was acting like a jerk in kind of a subtle way -- loudly talking about some public issue with a smirk on his face. (I almost felt like he was daring someone to contradict him, but no doubt that's my own emotional reaction and 'reading in-to').

i didn't like it.

[Spaldeen]

38. It sounds like we feel the same way about it.

But other than calling the cops, what can we do though? I don't want to feel helpless again.

[HiPointDem]

48. in the moment, nothing, since it's legal. i was trapped in line, next time i'll just leave. in the

long run, maybe get the laws changed.

though i supposed it's true that in a way, open carry is 'safer' than concealed. but i don't like either.

now that i check the law in my state: for private businesses, they may prohibit firearms on their property. so one thing we can do (assuming it's the same in your state) is lobby private businesses to ban it on their property. at least we wouldn't have to shop around gun freaks.

but in my state, the freaks can carry on any gov't property -- the post office, the bus, the woods, the social security office --

[jimboss]

61. I don't know if it would do any good but If enough people

were to tell the store manager they will refuse to shop there .

They could change the store policy.

I personally don't think they should have magazines showing assault rifles in
the grocery store I shop in. They have them right next to children's books on the same shelf

that's not a joke either

[HiPointDem]

88. yes, that might work. private businesses can ban guns. i would like to see that.

[forestpath]

44. I'd feel the same way. I'd feel like anyone who had to arm themselves to go to

a freaking grocery store was a paranoid freak just looking for a chance to shoot someone or why else are they even wearing a gun?

[truegrit44]

170. I feel exactly the same way!!

[Robb]

46. That feeling you have.

It's the realization that someone idiotic enough to carry a gun into the grocery store has the power of life and death over you on their belt.

[MaineBlueDog]

340. Is it similar to the realization.

that some idiotic person driving a 2,500 pound SUV that could run you down in the parking lot has the power of life and death over you? Or the realization that you are much more likely to be run down in the parking lot?

[Robb]

341. Welcome to DU. No.

[Caretha]

47. Here's what you do....

If you are sure the guy isn't a "LEO".....just some asshole with an inferiority complex.....carrying a gun and pretending he's a big Boy.

Allow the checker to ring up and bag all your items, and then when it comes time to pay, say "Nah....I'm sorry but I don't feel like paying or buying these items after all. The man behind me with the gun, sorta took all the pleasure of doing business with you away. So see ya, and hope next time I come in here, this idiot or another like him is not shopping."

Then smile real big, and walk out.

Believe me the manager/owner will get the message, because you just caused him more employee work hours/effort, not to mention a lost sale.

[jimboss]

86. That's not really fair to the check out girl or guy

Why not just ask to speak to the store manager and explain your position on the store policy of allowing
people to carry guns.

[sweetloukillbot]

132. 25 years ago at one of my first jobs someone pulled that crap

Guy in line had a gun - not causing any problem, it's Arizona and it's commonplace. I don't particularly like it and I don't understand the need for it. Next customer in line start's reaming me a new asshole about how I'm putting his children at risk by not confronting the guy with the gun. Didn't exactly warm me to his position, but if he the only way he felt he could deal with it was to blame an 18-year-old cashier making $3.25 an hour for his fears, that says something about him.
Sanctimonious customers who have to make loud pronouncements and shows berating the hourly staff about why "THEY'RE NOT SHOPPING HERE AGAIN" are almost always in the wrong.

[tumtum]

213. Punish the checker, who has no input to store policy,

that's smart.

[Caretha]

258. I'm the manager of

a retail store.

You'd be surprised how much a checker's input is worth.

[Hoyt]

50. And the Asshat with a gun loved that you felt like that. Made him feel "big" and you intimidated.

Glad some kid in line didn't pop a bag and scare the hell out of him.

[bluedigger]

59. I see that on a more or less regular basis in the Four Corners.

It's always some elderly guy afraid I'm going to steal his Metamucil.

They think they are making some sort of political statement as they go out to their government authorized handicap parking space to get in their Paulbot bumper stickered dieseling trucks.

[Spaldeen]

68. I was out in the lot long enough to see him

when he got into a green Volvo station wagon. What a hypocrite!

[Kali]

66. do you feel this paranoid when you merge onto the interstate?

hella lot more folks die from idiots wielding deadly vehicles. some bozo in a check-out line with his penis in a holster is not usually a problem, relax.

the folks you need to worry about are your angry drunken relatives and and the shitty drivers out there. the vast majority of gun owners, law abiding or criminals, could give a shit about you.

[rdharma]

72. Well, if they feel a need to intimidate people by displaying their gatt in public........

...... I'll give 'em reason to give a shit about me! And not in a way they'll appreciate.

[Kali]

79. gatt?

my experience with law enforcement parallels the fable of the boy who cried wolf.

somebody carrying open and legal is not your biggest worry. think about it.

intimidation is at least partially a product of perception. me, I am intimidated by things like public speaking and microphones. some dickhead with a holster on his hip doesn't phase me much. but then I live in AZ where a lot of us are armed one way or another.

[Spaldeen]

82. Do you carry anything?

Be it knife, gun, whatever?

[Kali]

93. ppfftt

half the time I forget my gun when I go out. I do usually have a knife as it is more useful in more situations.

and I live in the land of the great Mexican invasion (within 60 miles of the border)

I figure if I can't bluff my way out of situation, the gun isn't going to help much


on the other hand, guns have no magical fear-inducing power over me, either. I live and work with large animals and drive on the interstate regularly. I know where the real risks lie.

[rdharma]

85. Sorry, "gat"!

I used to live in AZ and I'd see guys carrying openly when they were doing something that required the security. Didn't bother me at all. Though it was still stupid because it drew attention to what they were doing.

Some moron shopping for groceries or going to a restaurant? Nah! That just pisses me off!

[Kali]

107. possibility from personal experience

working all day out away from the HQ (on a ranch) - run to town for groceries before dark/dinner - could be wearing gun or spurs and look pretty stupid to "townies" but in reality just wearing :work clothes"

not to say there aren't dickhead out there carrying, but from personal experience, I know there are people that are just pressed for time or whatever and don't want to leave these things in the parking lot of the local store.

My bottom line, though, is that it usually isn't the folks you see out in the open that are the ones you need to worry about.

[tumtum]

214. Really? What would you do?

Besides call the police, who, if it's legal in your state, would probably laugh at you, unless you lie to them to get them to come out and check it out, which would make you the criminal.

[rdharma]

219. Armed nut with a gun? It's LE's duty to check it out! nt

[tumtum]

221. Not if it's legal to do so.

Where I live, cops won't even respond to a call of someone carrying a gun unless they're doing something illegal.
Open carrying is not illegal, so, no crime committed.

[rdharma]

222. Like I said, sounds like Somalia.

Lot's of crime in your area? Or just a lot of folks who feel paranoid or inadequate?

Do they open carry in restaurants and grocery stores. If so, WTF for?!!!!

[tumtum]

224. Not a lot of crime here.

You say paranoid or inadequate? I say that's your interpretation, nothing more.
Yes, they can carry in restaurants and grocery stores unless otherwise posted, so far, I haven't seen any no firearms allowed signs.
What for? No idea, I mind my own business.

[rdharma]

229. So, there is really no reason to carry into restaurants and grocery stores.

But if someone does, you're cool with that.

I'm not! And I take action.

[tumtum]

234. Why should I have a problem with it?

As long as they're being peaceful, minding their own business, so what.
What action would you take? Calling the police? If it's legal in your state and you don't lie to the police about their actions, the police will just tell you it's legal and there's nothing they can or want to do about it.

[rdharma]

243. Because such a paranoid nutjob could just "go off"!

I don't feel that some paranoid douchebag's insecurity complex trumps the public safety. It's as simple as that.

[tumtum]

245. You're labeling people who carry guns as paranoid douchebags.

but that's you opinion only, and a bad one at that.

Anyone can go off at any time for any reason, carrying a gun doesn't cause that.

[rdharma]

249. Pretty much! nt

[Spaldeen]

81. You are right,

I don't. I expect to see cars on the interstate; however, I do not expect to see a gun in line at the grocery store.

I wish I could have just ignored it. My trip would have been a lot less eventful on my nerves that way.

[Kali]

99. truth be told

most people are oblivious to details around them. so good on you for even noticing. did you observe any other characteristics or identifying facts that would help if you needed to describe the individual as a witness or claimant to some legal action?

[Spaldeen]

124. Yeah

Good call. I could pick him out in a lineup if I had to. As far as describing his features, the description would only be limited by my poor vocabulary and the policeman's interpretation thereof.

[pintobean]

84. I was in a grocery store parking lot

and saw some guy just sitting in his parked car. His knuckles were white from the grip he had on the steering wheel. He looked tense, uneasy, flustered, and out of control.

Not knowing what might happen, I got the fuck out of there.

[Spaldeen]

98. Did you leave

in a green Volvo station wagon?

[pintobean]

121. A monster truck

but don't tell Kali.

[Kali]

165. !

give me the $$ for those damn tires, and I will sell you something more practical AND replace your next 5 flats.

[Kali]

110. that guy that shows up at the public meeting all irrational and claiming god's right to do whatever

HE is the one I really fear in a public situation

some clown in a restaurant with a holster? - pfffft - I tend to think the same as when I see a big monster truck or humvee - compensation, not fear of random violence

[DisgustipatedinCA]

158. This thread has made you personally angry

I hope you'll lock your extensions up until you feel a little calmer.

[Kali]

163. huh?

no anger here. want to try again?

[Doctor_J]

263. Stupid analogy alert!

Cars are made primarily for transporting people between locations. Guns are made primarily for killing people.

[Kali]

275. not really stupid

the point was being paranoid of something and the likelihood of being harmed by a situation. some asshole with a holstered gun in the grocery store is not likely to harm the poor quivering person who sees that gun, whereas there is a damn good chance any individual could be harmed or killed on a freeway.

[pintobean]

289. It is accurate

to compare a holstered gun to a parked car. A moving vehicle does pose more of a risk to the people around it. A gun doesn't pose much of a risk unless it's in someone's hand.

[Doctor_J]

293. A holstered gun and parked car?

Were you sleepy when you made this post?

It is accurate to compare a holstered gun to a parked car.

uh huh

A moving vehicle does pose more of a risk to the people around it. A gun doesn't pose much of a risk unless it's in someone's hand.

whoops. If everyone at Piggly Wiggly gets into their vehicles and uses them for what they were made and purchased for, the odds are very good that no one will be injured. If the Nooge wannabe takes his gun from its holster and uses it for what it was made and purchased for, someone probably WILL be injured.

Cars and guns are not, in any way, comparable. TO make a claim that they are is stupid.

[pasto76]

74. Im an army vet of 18 years. OIF 2003-2004. They wear this for intimidation

I know guns. Ive been up to my neck in gun culture and the ARMY culture since I was 19.

Guns can be intimidating. People WANT them to be intimidating. This guy you saw today is daring you to say something. And you didnt.

last time I saw open carry was in the grocery store last fall. LEOs dont openly carry. It was 0430. it was the third time Id seen him in there, I was like "what dude, you think the produce is going to attack? defending yourself from the stockboys? You're a douche"

he gave me a surprised look, tough guy look, confused look, then sad look in that order. Havent seen him again. Dont be intimidated.Its what they want, and I believe, like many bullies, it only takes one or two verbal shots to deflate them.

[rdharma]

76. +1000 ^^^^^^^

[tumtum]

217. Where I live, Detectives open carry all the time.

[cherokeeprogressive]

83. This is an easy one... you're in the grip of an irrational fear.

You are sure your rights were violated, but you can't say how or why.

You say you felt like you were being watched. Were you looking at the person's eyes?

Who silenced you?

I don't think you'll ever get over your fear to be honest, better not to try. It's not going to be good when you feel the need to CHALLENGE someone carrying a gun. Me, I might have asked what he was carrying, and why. Who knows, you might have found something in common with him.

[rdharma]

96. No fear here. Just pissed off at the paranoid nut job for being an armed a-hole. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

140. Moreover, a person can't take away your right to free speech.

This is just someone pissed that someone has a gun.

[rrneck]

103. You over reacted.

It's a near certainty he was completely unaware of you and didn't care one way or the other. If you're that easily intimidated, perhaps you should get some help.

[rdharma]

114. The paranoid a-hole that feels the need to open carry is the one who needs help.

And I'd be more than happy to see he gets the proper "attention"!

[rrneck]

116. That's a fine Zimmerman move. You're learning.

Curry favor with the cops. I understand you know a lot about that sort of thing.

[rdharma]

120. Nope. The "Zimmerman move" is carrying a gat because he's a coward.....

..... and needs "gun courage"!

[rrneck]

122. He called the cops on suspicious people all the time.

He watched out for suspicious characters. You know, THEM, those people who can't be trusted.

[rdharma]

127. He carried a gun to compensate for his paranoid fear......

.... it's quite clear now that an armed Zimmerman type is the one who should not be trusted.

[rrneck]

133. Absolutely!

You make sure you report each and every one of them! That is the type that should be checked out every time. And the police will even thank you for it. Maybe they will give you a gold star and everything.

[rdharma]

139. I'd rather have one of Aunt B's cherry pies! nt

[rrneck]

151. I bet you would.

Now get out there and start hunting down those rude gun toters, Barney.

[rdharma]

155. I don't hunt them..... in fact I haven't seen any since I moved here.

I guess that's because most gun owners have enough sense to refrain from being "public gun exhibitionists".

But if the need arises, I'll take appropriate action.

[rrneck]

159. Absolutely.

You jump on those hunches. Those rude gun toters quake in fear of your itchy dialing finger.

[rdharma]

162. As they should......

[rrneck]

166. Yep. Good thing we have you to keep up with those kind of people.

Just be sure to stay in your car when you make the call.

[rdharma]

167. Somebody has to do it ....... or they'll just keep behaving like jerks.

Besides..... I love to see 'em pout!

[rrneck]

168. Yeah, they always get away.

Stay sharp!

[Nevernose]

169. FWIW, I prefer the open carry

CCW is what always struck me as cowardly. It always seemed to me to say, "I have just enough guts to own a gun, but not enough to let anyone know it." It also seems to me that open carry might be an actual crime deterrent, where as concealed really doesn't deter crime: it assumes that guys who rob liquor stores are the type to think things through.

[rdharma]

197. Why do you feel the need to "carry" in public at all?

It must be awful to live with fear all the time. Do you see "bogeymen" everywhere?

[tblue]

106. If feel the same and I wouldn't go back

to that store. I'm not telling you not to, but that's what I would do. Guns are scary, people who show off their guns are sick, and I have no use for either one. I might call the police to say I'm concerned and see what they have to say. I also would let the store know I'm not coming back and why. Not sure what good that would do though.

I completely understand your feelings. I would have been bothered and felt helpless too. The only way to change that is to take charge of your own life, draw your own lines. You have to honor your feelings even if that creep doesn't.

[MisterP]

108. they got a new name

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023305573

[Spaldeen]

111. LOL

Shit multipliers! That's great!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

119. people wearing guns on their hips (not cops) need to have it shoved sideways up their ass

I cannot stand the feeling of power people get off of carrying a handgun around. They are already self selecting into a crowd that is the most likely to create mayhem.

Remember Gabby Giffords shooting? It ALMOST got a lot worse because there was some dude with a gun that fortunately was not the shoot first ask questions later type. He had assumed one of the citizens who had tackled the perpetrator was in fact the shooter.

Never mind of you start waving your gun around and the cops show up, you are likely dead yourself.

[tumtum]

223. When you see someone carrying a gun on their hip (not cops),

do you personally attempt to shove it sideways up their ass?

[mountain grammy]

135. I think I will call 911 if I see someone in a public place carrying a gun.

Someone carrying a gun in a public place is immature and unstable and should be reported. Responsible gun owner don't carry their weapons in public, they are locked up safely at home. That's what's taught in gun safety classes.

[former9thward]

145. That is not what is taught in gun safety courses.

It is apparent you have never taken one.

[mountain grammy]

157. Yes I have and yes it was.

[mountain grammy]

271. I took it at "The Firing Line" in Aurora, Co. about 20 years ago.

It was an excellent class. They taught that the only safe gun was the gun in the safe. There's nothing safe about carrying a gun openly in public. People who feel the need to do so, are ignorant or immature or both and shouldn't even have access to a weapon.

[tumtum]

226. And if it's legal, the cops will ask if the person is doing anything illegal.

If their not, then they'll tell you that there's no reason to send a police officer.

[mountain grammy]

233. But what if he's a "bad guy with a gun?" I'm calling.

[Lizzie Poppet]

274. I've never heard that in any gun safety class.

And in legal open carry states, you could end up in a fair bit of trouble for calling 911 on something that's not a crime.

[Socal31]

325. If you are in a state where it is legal, please record your adventure.

The courts have ruled that carrying a gun (where it is legal) is not in itself enough probable cause to be detained by an officer. The officer would have to suspect you of committing a crime, otherwise the encounter with the LEO would be consensual.

I don't know what gun safety class you took, but I highly doubt what you are saying is in the curriculum.

[mountain grammy]

329. I don't understand the opjection to gun safety being taught in a gun safety class.

Well, it was 20 years ago.. you all weren't so damn crazy then. There was actually a ban on assault weapons then.

[Socal31]

330. You obviously don't understand a lot of things about firearms, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Keep on alienating the rural part of this party by painting anyone who isn't afraid of guns as a NRA Rambo wanna-be. That will surely help us get passable gun legislation proposed nationally, won't it?

[mountain grammy]

333. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

[Dreamer Tatum]

138. Maybe it was a watergun. nt

[jpak]

141. The gun toting asshole wore that gun to intimidate you

and it worked.

Channel your anger and make open carry illegal.

yup

[Common Sense Party]

175. Don't try to fool us. You want concealed carry to be illegal as well. You're against ALL carry.

Just be honest.

[jpak]

188. OK - I'm against that too.

yup

[Common Sense Party]

279. Honesty is such a lonely word

Everyone is so untrue

[orleans]

146. obviously you felt threatened. does your state have a "stand your ground" law?

if it does then you could have killed him!

[Pelican]

171. I would very much like to see your reasons why you think this is so...

Legally please and not what you "think should be"

[orleans]

199. well, isn't that what the stupid fucking "stand your ground" law is all about?

protecting yourself from someone you PERCEIVE is a danger to you?

[friendly_iconoclast]

201. Why don't you tell us what *you* perceive a "stand your ground" law is?

I suspect it will closely resemble a lecture given at Everybody Knows Community College*

*(with apologies to Terry Pratt's Sergeant Fred Colon...)

[Pelican]

204. No, no it isn't...

Crack a book...

[Apophis]

172. Only scared cowards bring guns into grocery stores.

There is absolutely no need for anyone to carry a gun to the store. NONE.

[complain jane]

173. Somebody posted a picture somewhere

of a guy in a fast food place with a big rifle over his shoulder. He looked like just some average joe, dressed very casually, ordering food but he just happened to have a big gun with him right over his shoulder.

My first thought was, what a jackass. Who the hell needs to bring that into a public place unless they want to light the place up. My next thought was, if I saw that I would immediately think that person was unhinged and run.

How can you not feel silenced especially if you are against allowing any nitwit to own one? Walking around a public place with a deadly weapon is intimidating and unsettling to say the least.

[Politicalboi]

177. If enough people complain to the store

Perhaps they will ban guns from being in their business. Why should we non gun owners not have a right to be safe. I don't feel safe when ANY idiot can carry a gun into a store. I don't want ANY asshole to feel he or she can use their gun if THEY feel threatened for anything in public. This is getting out of hand with these fucking gun nuts. I would complain to the store that they allow it, or I would call the police. Maybe if the police get tired of spending all their time for gun nut calls, they will ban them in public.

[Tom Ripley]

203. They must have sold out of "Princess Tinymeat" t-shirts in your area

[hunter]

205. Our local grocery store has a sign on the front door: "NO FIREARMS."

Knowing the manager and the cops he is friendly with, they might find prying a gun out of cold dead fingers acceptable terms.



Seriously, the only people who carry guns in our city are cops and gangsters. And too many of the gangsters are fourteen and fifteen year old idiots who can't shoot straight.

My wife sees young gangsters who've been shot, and in another city my sister scrapes them off of the streets, and invariably these kids are surprised how bad it hurts to get shot or that they are not dead, except when they are dead.

Carrying a gun does not protect you from idiots like this. They don't give a shit. Odds are if you are caught in the crossfire you won't even know what's happened when you are bleeding on the ground and the dip-shit shooters have run off or driven away.

I've talked to war veterans too. Usually shooting is a surprise that's over a second or two after it starts.

It's never like the movies. No drama, no music, no slow motion, just "bang-bang-blood."

I have a friend who has never gotten over killing the Vietnamese kid who shot him. It got worse for him when his own kid was a teenager, same age as the kid he killed.

[ileus]

216. What kind of holster was his firearm in?

[Le Taz Hot]

218. Thank GOD I don't live in a CC state

but, being the loud-mouthed, opinionated old broad that I am, I can hear myself saying, "Oh look! A penis extender!"

[tumtum]

230. Yes you do live in a CC state.

All 50 states have some form of CC laws, Illinois being the last to become a CC state on July 9th.

[Le Taz Hot]

232. Oh, well, excuse me,

I should have said Open Carry state -- I'm not a gun-humper so I wasn't that careful with my terminology. Open Carry. Better now?

[tumtum]

237. No need to get nasty.

[Le Taz Hot]

238. You're new, aren't you?

[tumtum]

239. Yes. Is this a problem?

Because I'm new here I'm not allowed to correct misinformation?

[Le Taz Hot]

241. You have a vivid imagination.

Enjoy your stay.

[tumtum]

242. Just trying to figure out what you meant by asking me if I'm new here

without any explanation.

I hope I do enjoy my stay.

[Le Taz Hot]

248. You thought my rather inocuous reply

was "nasty." You might think about getting your big boy chonies on if you're going post on DU.

I'm done now.

[hack89]

256. "gun humper" is considered polite speech around here

guns are one subject that brings out the worst in people here. Just ignore the insults.

[gulliver]

227. I would call the cops on him...right in front of him.

Just get in a conversation with the dispatcher right there.

"I'm pretty sure the store has a no guns policy."

"Ok, I'll ask the cashier..."

"Cashier, I feel threatened by this ...person's gun. You don't allow guns in this store do you? Surely not!"

"What you don't know?"

"Just a second officer (on the phone), I'm asking for the manager."

"Could you call your manager, please? I'm afraid and I feel threatened, and I have no doubt that your store doesn't allow weapons on the premises. If so, I will tell the police to have him removed."

Bozo might try to talk, but just ignore him and respond, "Are you threatening me, sir?"

Hopefully he missed a "No guns" sign on the store's door and will be hauled away.

[Eleanors38]

301. You "would?" Have you? Will you? nt

[gulliver]

303. Honestly, it would actually depend on the situation.

If I thought the guy was nuts, I'm not going to do anything in front of him. In that case I would probably try to find a manager to see what the store policy was or just look at the doorway for signs. If open carry was not allowed in the store, I would definitely call 911 and ruin the guy's day. Even if open carry was allowed in the store, I would complain to the store manager and then probably still call 911 to report the guy. They might send a car to mess with him. If he so much as looked at me sideways, I'd rat him out as acting in a threatening manner just to try to get him hauled off. I'd get his license number.

If it were just one of these paunchy gun wuss types, then yes, there is a good chance I would allow him to overhear me calling the cops. I might even ask him if he is a police officer or something. I might listen politely as he explained he had the right to openly carry. I might engage the cashier to see what the store policy was as part of that conversation. I would still make the call to the cops, but maybe not on 911. The point would be just to make the guy feel humiliated. It would not be courage at all, just a kind of mean-spirited desire to see an asshole suffer.

I don't feel threatened by open carry people in general, because they are usually just hapless pity cases in my experience. But calling the cops on them is no big deal in my book. A lot of people feel that way I'm sure.

But you're right, you never know how you would react until it happens. I've made a scene or two about Fox News showing in a public place, but this? I'm pretty sure I would do something, but I can't be sure.

[MrScorpio]

246. In any discussion between two people, if one person carries a gun...

Then that person could have the last word.

Yes, it's understandable why you were so mad and I don't blame you one bit.

[alarimer]

247. Personally, I think people who carry guns in public are paranoid freaks who are best avoided.

At least open carry laws let you know who they are.

[unclebob]

250. I often carry when..

Coming home from the range, Its just easier. Yes, I own guns, yes I like to shoot, just because I have my gun on, does not mean I am out to oppress you or take away your rights, its just a matter of convenience and safety rather than leaving it in the car and letting someone steal it and possibly kill someone else with it.

Not everyone with a gun is your enemy, some of us are even dare I say it, Democrats!

[DainBramaged]

253. In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to

stop a crime.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check


Chances of being simgled out by a 'criminal' while open-carrying your gun in a protected White community, well, lets say you'll see Sharknado first.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

[Peaceplace80]

257. One of the problems is

That we live on such a violent, shoot first society that gun carriers make others very nervous! There was a man in Florida that shot a car full of teenagers for playing their music to loud! It doesn't take much to set off some nut balls and no one should have to worry about being in the crossfire. A gun gives a false sense of security and its only purpose is to severely injure or kill another humane being. If Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun, Trayvon would still be alive. Just another example of a hothead with a violent past that should of never been permitted to!

[Doctor_J]

261. The US is now a 3rd world country

for a variety of reasons, a major one of which is that it is drenched in guns.

[hrmjustin]

264. Your back I see.

[Cirque du So-What]

267. Hard to say

There are only so many variations on a troll theme, yunno. This thread is a real 'honey pot' for attracting trolls, innit?

[hrmjustin]

268. Yep! That is why I like these kind of posts. You can flush them out.

And with polls are good at flushing them out as well.

[arcane1]

265. You're back again?

[hrmjustin]

266. Can't get enough of us.

[arcane1]

269. To be fair, we are irresistable.

They can't help themselves

[hrmjustin]

270. Probably from the cave! You know how they can't stop sending their minions.

Or stop talking about us.

[Major Nikon]

272. He's dead, Jim

At Sun Jul 21, 2013, 08:39 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

you sir need to grow up..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3310746

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

returning troll.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:20 PM, and the Jury voted 6-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Sounds like a troll, but the "grow a sack of balls" was unnecessary.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Low post count, and telling the guy WITHOUT the gun to grow some balls. I smell gun-humping troll.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Comment is a gratuitous insult.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Jenoch]

276. As I have posted numerous times,

I am opposed to most open carry and I do not have a CCW permit. I am still attempting to figure out, as you are from your OP, how the guy in line was violating your free speech rights. Have you figured out how you speech rights were violated by this visit to the store?

[hrmjustin]

281. Hey your back!

[Spazito]

282. Not for long!

Zapped on it's first post!

Thanks MIRT!

[hrmjustin]

283. He will be back.

[Spazito]

286. Oh yes, I suspect it is a fan of 'galileo'....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=223417&sub=trans

The same civil tone, lol.

[hrmjustin]

288. Yeah saw he is gone.

He did not know how to be civil.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

284. It was a brief visit.

Looks like they didn't make it past one post.

[hrmjustin]

285. He will be back.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

287. No doubt.

Ones like him always are.

[ileus]

290. I saw loads of people OCin this weekend

At the funshow in Salem...

Since va is an OC legal state it didn't bother me much.

[Spaldeen]

295. So, how many did you see?

ARgh! I think on the 15-17th of August. come rain or shine, there is a local fair in a nearby county. I'd like to go. I've never noticed anybody carrying a gun at those before, though.

[ileus]

296. 100 maybe 200....it was a gun show. LOL

Most except LEO's and vendors, had the actions strapped open.


Our little county fair you'll see 1 maybe two (always the same guys) Ocin'. Now the State Fair it's off limits for OC and CC...

[mstinamotorcity2]

299. Personally people who carry guns are those who are anticipating

trouble. Yes you felt out of control because you were not in control of the gun. I am not scared of guns but I am not happy with all this fire power in this Country. I don't have the need to carry a firearm. For what? Protection? From what? The potential criminal? From who? Please. Most people carry guns to get their Joneses on feeling powerful and in control. Yes there are Criminals that are out for unsuspecting people, I get that. But I would much rather advocate for better economic opportunities for all. Most people who rob do it for the money. If they have their own money usually they won't mess with yours. Guns are here. And as long as they keep saying President Obama is going to take away your guns, They go get more. The only person getting their use of the Gun is Weapon manufacturers. They are making money hand over foot. And gun violence is running amuck. the weapons people don't care about good gun owners or bad gun owners, they just want sales. And though there are those who think that their Second Amendment right has been God given to them, they never consider the rights of those who chose not to indulge. They want their rights respected, but fuck the rights of those who do not chose guns. And what you felt is what we call dis respected or dissed.

[GreenStormCloud]

315. There is an error I wish to point out.

You said: Most people who rob do it for the money. If they have their own money usually they won't mess with yours.

An important motive in armed robbery is the feeling of power that the robber gets. For the duration of the robbery he completely dominates his victim. He enjoys the thrill. The money is secondary.

[Paladin]

318. Any civilian, non-LEO who rejects concealed carry in favor of open carry is worthy of suspicion.

As far as I'm concerned, such individuals have left behind any reasonable notions of self-defense, and have entered into the realm of willful public intimidation. There is a vast and unsettling difference in justifications for the two styles of firearm portability.

I say all this as a gun owner of more than 50 years. And I know for a fact that many 2nd Amendment Absolutists share my opinion of open carry---it sure as hell doesn't do their cause any favors.

[mick063]

332. The OP's experience has not happened to me.

But knowing myself, I think I would leave everything in a neat pile, turn and look the gun carrier in the eye to reveal that he is the subject of my thoughts, and walk out of the store.


I can go shirtless in public, but a store can deny me service for not wearing a shirt. They say it is a health concern.

I thank the OP for inspiring me to rehearse this in my mind before it eventually happens.

By the way, I have a .44 special locked up in the safe in my bedroom.

I vehemently disagree with carrying guns, concealed or open, into a store. A theatre. An ice cream parlor.

[Agschmid]

337. Weird username...

What's it mean?

[Agschmid]

338. Weird username...

What does it mean?

[arcane1]

339. I would at least assume they are either constantly afraid, or pretending to be bad-ass.

I live in a crowded city and don't feel the need to carry, much less openly carry, a gun. I can't imagine why someone in the suburbs would feel that need.

Cops are irrelevant to that discussion.