What I don't get about ALEC--and for that matter, the Koch Brothers--

[Jackpine Radical]

is why they have such a passionate interest in CCW, abortion legislation, and other socially conservative agendas, when I presume that their major purpose is to advance the capture of the national resources (whether human, material, or potential) by the tiny fraction of the people who reside at the top of the social pyramid and enslavement of the general population.

Why is something like SYG at all important to them? How does it advance their cause?

The only rationale I can think of is that these are the sops they throw to the Teabaggers and snake-handlers in order to keep them blinded to their own real interests.

But on the other hand, there must be at least as many people turned-off by these regressive social policies, even among their own higher-functioning (i.e. richer) followers, as are captivated by them.

Anybody got a better grasp of the political calculus here than I do?

[markiv]

1. Koch couldnt care less about social issues, either way

say what else you want about them, but they are hard core liberatarians

i think people go off track when they say 'koch is bad, therefore they are for everything i think is bad'

it's not that simple

there's plenty of things they really are for, that people can question

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Aren't they major funders of ALEC?

[markiv]

5. i dont know

do you have links to show that ALEC has positions on things like abortion, and that the kochs are primary supporters of that?

one of the Koch brothers, David, was VP candidate for the liberatarian party in 1980

[Jackpine Radical]

6. Here…

ALEC Exposed: The Koch Connection

Untold sums of cash poured into ALEC by Charles and David Koch have been an effective investment in advancing their worldview.
Lisa Graves
July 12, 2011 | This article appeared in the August 1-8, 2011 edition of The Nation.


http://www.thenation.com/article/161973/alec-exposed-koch-connection#

This article is part of a Nation series exposing the American Legislative Exchange Council, in collaboration with the Center For Media and Democracy. John Nichols introduces the series.
?
Hundreds of ALEC’s model bills and resolutions bear traces of Koch DNA: raw ideas that were once at the fringes but that have been carved into “mainstream” policy through the wealth and will of Charles and David Koch. Of all the Kochs’ investments in right-wing organizations, ALEC provides some of the best returns: it gives the Kochs a way to make their brand of free-market fundamentalism legally binding.

No one knows how much the Kochs have given ALEC in total, but the amount likely exceeds $1 million—not including a half-million loaned to ALEC when the group was floundering. ALEC gave the Kochs its Adam Smith Free Enterprise Award, and Koch Industries has been one of the select members of ALEC’s corporate board for almost twenty years. The company’s top lobbyist was once ALEC’s chairman. As a result, the Kochs have shaped legislation touching every state in the country. Like ideological venture capitalists, the Kochs have used ALEC as a way to invest in radical ideas and fertilize them with tons of cash.

[markiv]

7. you linked koch to ALEC, and ALEC to corporate liberatarianism

but you didnt link it to social things like abortion

[Jackpine Radical]

10. Heeeere's ALEC---(and SYG)

The acquittal of George Zimmerman for killing unarmed high-schooler Trayvon Martin serves as a reminder of the continuing inequities in America's criminal justice system -- and might be the impetus to repeal a law like "Stand Your Ground," which was adopted by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) and subsequently spread across the country. Stand Your Ground was part of the jury instructions in Zimmerman's criminal trial, and it could again come into play if Trayvon's family brings a civil suit.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. And a little more--

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/13792/alec-abortion-stand-your-ground

ALEC, Abortion, & Stand Your Ground

by: Phillip Martin
Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 01:00 PM CDT

…

The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) has spent the last forty years bringing corporations, their lobbyists, and conservative lawmakers together to put the corporate interest ahead of what's best for people. Functioning as a 501(c)3, ALEC allows corporations to give large amounts of tax-deductible donations to become part of ALEC's corporate councils. These councils then vote and approve ALEC model bills, which are then presented by the corporation's lobbyists to conservative lawmakers at retreats that are often paid for by taxpayers. These model bills are shopped around the country and enacted - with limited trace of money influence - in legislatures across the country, though lawmakers rarely admit that the law started as an ALEC mode bill.

ALEC became a nationwide name last year, when George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman was able to use the "Stand Your Ground" defense to his advantage in court.

ALEC also has a sister organization - Americans United for Life (AUL) - that focuses exclusively on pro-life bills, using the same model/format as ALEC. House Bill 2, the controversial legislation that limited access to women's health care, came from AUL.

The legislation has been shopped across the country, with laws enacted in dozens of states that mirror the Texas law.

[markiv]

17. does koch fund that sister organization?

interesting that they had to create a different entity for that

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Google is your friend. Also see Cirque's link below.

[markiv]

20. it's your google errand, not mine

i never ask others to research MY arguements, and I will not be responsible for researching anyone elses

[billh58]

30. Libertarian "liberals"

like the Gungeoneers and their fellow travelers, can't be bothered with arguments which don't fall into their "compassionate conservatism" model. They always vote for the "best candidate" even if they believe that it's Lydon LaDouche as long as their Libertarian views are supported.

[markiv]

13. it's still liberatarian

abortion restriction, which you mentioned, is not

and no, i'm not 'defending the koch brothers' as corporate liberatarians, they would support privatization of nearly everything, not a good idea, IMO

[billh58]

8. You say that

like it's a good thing. The Koch Brothers are the financial face of the right-wing in this country, and represent all that we are fighting to eradicate. They support ALEC and the NRA, among other right-wing organizations, and spent literally billions to defeat President Obama in both elections.

Just a few years ago, the Koch Brothers would have proudly worn hoods to the cross-burnings. On second thought, maybe they still do.

[markiv]

15. irresponsible statement

'Just a few years ago, the Koch Brothers would have proudly worn hoods to the cross-burnings. On second thought, maybe they still do. '

that's just throw it at the wall, and see if it will stick

they gave 20 million to the ACLU, and yes, it was purley for their own interests, they didnt want the PATRIOT act snooping in their files

[billh58]

19. I stand by my statement.

Your defense of the Koch Brothers is very telling, and Libertarianism is just another name for Republican right-wing. They are the scum of the political scene, as are all extreme right-wing assholes.

[markiv]

22. not defending liberatarianism, kochs or right wing

just pointing out that there are distictions among them

if you're really going to oppose and argue against something, it helps to know the subject matter - that helps win over people who need more than an anonymous person on the internet's lumping them all together as 'scum' and 'assholes' who 'wear hoods at cross burnings'

someday, you might find a need to preach beyond the chior

[billh58]

24. I do know the

"subject matter." Rand Paul, Ron Paul, Lyndon LaRouche, and thousands of other assholes like them have been trying to hijack our democracy for decades, and I've been right up front in opposing them.

Please spare me your Libertarian apologist lectures, and condescending attitude about "lumping all of them together," because they all quack and walk like Libertarian ducks. The KKK is a great example of right-wing ideology gone horribly wrong, and the Koch Brothers fit the mold.

The "distinctions" you are so desperately trying to conjure up are not distinctions at all, but rather different dialects of the same hate-filled clap-trap that comes from Boehner and his cohorts.

[markiv]

27. it's useless to debate with you

because you are too emotional and irrational

and if you knew anything about politics and tactics at all, you'd know that artificially lumping an opposition together, gives them more power than they really have, and weakens your own side

ever heard the expression 'divide and conquer'?!?!?

you think the other side is trying to unite their opposition? No. They are trying to DIVIDE it (and doing a pretty good job of it)

the OP said 'Anybody got a better grasp of the political calculus here than I do?'

i took that as an invitation to a discussion - if this is really just an 'US vs THEM' rally, then maybe i'm in the wrong thread

[hack89]

29. Nuanced political debate is not a DU strong point. nt

[tularetom]

3. The people who oppose SYG are for the most part independent thinkers

People who actually see shades of gray. It takes a lot more effort (and cash) to keep them happy than the dumbass demographic who can be depended on to react to buzzwords like "stand yer ground", or "this is a christian nation".

[Scuba]

4. They don't care about these issues, but they know ...

... that people who care greatly about these issues will ALWAYS turn out to vote.

[Ruby the Liberal]

9. They need the schlubs to vote for them, against self-interest

so they use issues near and dear to the hearts of that set - abortion and guns. That keeps the RW going to the polls and voting against their own self interests.

[Kingofalldems]

35. Exactly

[KittyWampus]

11. Well, the Republicans voting for politicians whose mission is to protect the 1% need some narrative

or the reality of how skewed their party is would sink in.

[Cirque du So-What]

14. Here's a bunch of info

http://www.alecwatch.org/report.html

[Jackpine Radical]

16. Thanks, Cirque.

A great resource.

[hay rick]

21. Diversion tactic.

If the public debate focuses on guns and abortion, they soak up energy and bandwidth and the economic issues that are actually important to them become easier to manipulate. They thrive in the dark. If they can break even or come close to breaking even on issues like CCW or Stand Your Ground, they don't have to face meaningful exposure and debate on issues like the Trans Pacific Partnership.

Democrats can support Keystone or TPP but "stand firm" against rolling back Roe v Wade and claim they are "more liberal" than the Republican alternative. Progressives start out with fewer monetary resources and then expend a significant fraction of their money and energy on these never-ending battles.

[DirkGently]

26. That makes some sense.

Otherwise, I agree with the OP. Hard to see where naked social cruelty coincides with profit motive, which is surely what the Kochs are about.

[cliffordu]

32. Exactly. Perfect.

My only beef is that you beat me to it.

[PatSeg]

23. Well, if it was a Saturday morning cartoon,

they'd just be evil-doers, hellbent on destroying the world. In the real world, I have to say I have asked myself the same question. I just can't grasp how their minds work, especially considering that they are rather old and probably don't have that much future anyway.

Sometimes I think it is just a board game to people like the Koch brothers. They do it just because they can.

[Samantha]

25. They have heard the prediction that by 2050 the Caucasian will become a minority

and that scares them to death. They fear not having as much power and influence once that benchmark is reached. Their solution: find ways to make to make abortion and even birth control unobtainable so Caucasian women will become a baby factory.

You think I am kidding? I heard Pat Buchanan say as much on cable during one of those open mike bloopers. He thought the show had gone to break and talked candidly about the only way to stop white people from becoming a minority was to not allow as many abortions to take place as was then happening.

But the Koch brothers' father helped found the John Birch society (do I have to say any more about that?) and one of them is still a member. Just go to the website and check out the membership list and you will see for yourself.

Beyond belief, really.

Sam

[SoCalDem]

28. "There's ice cream in the car"

That's the sentence I could always resort to , to get my adolescent boys to rush to the car & carry in the groceries for me.

The Kochs & their like-minded pals, use the same psychology when they push "social issues" on every ballot they can.

Those issues are the "hook" for republicans who routinely vote when they see an "R" next to a name or when they hear their idols Rush & others touting some bill somewhere that will lower their taxes or crush a union.

Sometimes there is "ice cream" , and that's good enough for those voters.

The Kochs even know about the "different flavors", when they donate to PBS or ACLU or other liberal groups.

[Taitertots]

31. If you keep people divided about trivial issues, they will never start to question why....

A group of people small enough to fit in a sports stadium control the world economy.

Or why the majority of the world's people live in absolute poverty despite the productive capacity to prevent it.

[markiv]

33. a sports stadium?

it's more like a large auditorium

[nashville_brook]

34. power-building strategies to for social conserves to vote against their econ interest

win the (black shrivelled) hearts and their wallets will follow.